Jordan Peterson BTFO

>>9284897
The supposed distinction between 'exploring the human condition/eternal truths' and 'politically didactic' prevalent in older literary criticism is a silly and false one, anyway. That isn't to say there isn't a hierarchy of loftier goals and explorations, of course.

>>9284924
Do you mean the distinction between the concepts, or the distinction between works which "serve" those concepts?

If the former then fuck you

>>9284897
Peterson believes that Dostoevsky brought both sides of the argument in his novels. He did not make one side weak and his favored side strong in order to persuade the reader to agree with him. I'm assuming his attack of Frozen was that it does not do the same. That it makes one side weak and another strong in order to persuade the viewer.

How can a work of fiction possibly demonstrate anything about the real world? I can write a book where Jews aren't insidious nation wreckers, what does that prove?

>>9284897
My god reddit are stupid. Something in their brain lights up 'ah I can get him in a trap!!!' then get 50 upvotes. All to defend a shitty disney movie?

>>9284999

hahaha

>>9284999
To be fair, I think many people literally don't understand the distinction.

>>9285002
not to necessarily defend a disney movie, but present a strong counterargument for a ridiculous argument made by jordan peterson.

but anyway dont get this guy, does he feel threatened by the movie? and why cant a movie show that a woman doesnt need a man to be succesful. that shouldnt even be considered a political message

>>9284999
prove, prove, prove

is that the only word you positivist niggers know?

>>9284897
It doesn't even show that. In the end the chick still has her beau.

The moral of frozen is that love is something you do, not something that happens to you.

>>9284994
>>9285002
nothing worse than the braindead fucktards that are peterson culties.

>>9285120
I posted what I imagined his response to that post would be given what he's said in the past. I didn't agree or disagree with it. You could explain why you disagree with it if you want or just post another shitpost.

>>9285126
No he's right that's pretty fanboyish.

>>9285128
maybe, I like to speculate what others would say though. I make a lot of those alternative history threads on /his/ for that same reason, just speculating of what others would have said or done in an alternate scenario

>>9285138
>I make a lot of those alternative history threads on /his/
I fucking hate you and would have preferred if you had been a Peterson fanboy.

>>9285126
>I posted what I imagined his response would be
that's really sad try thinking sometime and not emulating thought.

unsurprisingly you can't read either,
>"ANYTHING written to serve a political purpose is propaganda etc etc"

>Dr. Peterson, huge fan, been binging on your lectures for a while. What is your opinion on pornography, and masturbation in general? A lot of your supporters are also members of the /r/nofap community that completely obstain from masturbation, as they see it as a part of sorting themselves out and becoming the best human being they can be. Just curious.

>>9285145
;^)
>>9285149
I see you went with the shitpost option

my post was meant to show that I think peterson would claim that the devils wasn't written to serve a political purpose, rather it was to explore certain lines of thought and he did so by building up both sides of the debate. You still have the chance to post why you disagree with that if you want

>>9285153
I respect people who simply abstain from masturbation, but when anonymous crowds start forming around an instruction about some ONE thing and make it their duty to proselytise each as foot soldiers, it becomes wretched. The same thing invokes disdain for vegans.

>>him or her
>REEEEEEEEE
>>Unless you wish to be weak...
>/r/CuckoldCommunity
>Kermit doesn't eat cookies. They have a cookie monster for that.
>[–]drjordanbpeterson[S] 176 points 9 hours ago
>I was going to say that. But I'm glad you did instead.

>>9284897

>Implying propaganda can't be art

RIEFENSTAHL WOULD LIKE TO DO SOME ESTABLISHING SHOTS ON YOUR FACE BITCH

>>9285161
>wahh i have nothing so it's a shitpost
you haven't nullified his absolutist claim in any way and conveniently ignored what the reddit poster said, please try reading and stop RPing like some retard.

>>9284897

>I follow an extremely detailed day plan. I schedule constantly, by the hour, week, month and multi-month period. It's absolutely necessary if you want to be productive. Start with a simple schedule.

What do you know, Kermit is an autist.

>>9284897
Jordan Peterson is a fucking cretin if he makes a point out of talking about Disneyshit Film#234b. I have no idea who he is but he sounds pretty stupid.

>>9285185
So would Eisenstein.

The praise this is getting just baffles me. Really reveals how low the power level is around here.

>>9285204
>jordan peterson changed my life!!!

>>9285192
He's just trying to pull a Zizek.
>>9285225
I think it is good for Reddit to do this every so often. It is healthy for /lit/ to be taken down a peg on the patrician-o-meter, occasionally.

>>9285240
i was making fun of the guy i was quoting but either way lit isn't even patrician reddit is unironically probably way better for actual lit-related discussion 4chan is just more entertaining.

Who is Jordan Peterson's demographic?

>>9285265
anybody weak and depressed

>>9285266
I'm both of those, and I think he's an idiot.

>>9284897
Both posts just show how little you need to know and how little you need to argue in order to impress others on the internet.

>>9285265
Give me a succint description of the man because I am a lazy piece of shit. 30-40% memes is an acceptable level.

>>9285204
>>9285225
>>9285240
>>9285265
>>9285266
>>9285267
THE ELITE

I'm partly convinced that the JP haters here have issues which they are unwilling to face.

>>9285283
A man who holds moderately patrician views unfortunately twisted up with pleb-tier conservatism, thereby leading to a similar demographic to Marcus Aurelius.

You know. The people who read to better themselves.

I don't like Peterson either, people on reddit like him, and to preserve my edgy contrarian nature I must therefore despise him.

Now, if you excuse me, I have some love letters of Joyce to read

>>9285295
Look! A contrarian-contrarian. I knew one would show up eventually.

>a woman does not need a man to be successful
If this is a political message then pretty much all art is political. This guy is a cretin. (Who is he anyway?)

>>9285293
I like Marcus Aurelius, both for /lit/ and /his/ but I have no idea who his demographic is.

>reading to better yourself
That don't work none *spits*

>>9285310
A bunch of masculinist/nofap/mgtow faggots latched onto Aurelius because muh stoic masculinity.

>>9285299
settle down there bucko.

>>9285283
/lit/'s version of Anthony Fantano

>>9285314
Aurelius was more into the find your own path, being true to yourself and dignity which all apply to both men and women. I suppose virgins will latch on to anything.

>>9285317
So lindybeige but no English accent, gotcha. Does he larp too?

>>9285319
Yup. His Roman-ness helps, too. It's all about the image of the thing, not the content.

>>9285320
lindybeige is just a happy-go-lucky nerd
peterson is incredibly psychologically unstable

even if he was patrician as fuck, which he's not, I would avoid trying to listen to him because his emotional foundations will inevitably poison his intellect

>Do you believe in the supernatural and specifically the god of Christianity?
>Yes. I've met Him. He put me into a Roman coliseum with Satan himself, who I defeated. When I asked why He would do such a thing, He said, "because I knew you could win." He's a tough dude. Mess with Him at your peril.
Uh huh

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>>9284897
>anything written to serve a political purpose is propaganda not art

>>9285347
>lindybeige is just a happy-go-lucky nerd
"no"
>>9285409
He's right, assuming a literal definition of "serve".

>>9285418
>"no"
How come?

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>>9285418
>He's right, assuming a literal definition of "serve".

Horseshit, you're just setting up a no true scotsman cop out. Pic related is literally propaganda in the purest sense while simultniously art

Stop being a cultist and use your head dipshit

>>9285185
>>9285193
Doesn't it seem though that reifenstahl and Eisensteins films are beautiful for reasons completely outside their being propaganda? The political elements seem like literal props hung on the aesthetic framework

You take something like frozen and it's all discursive and nothing else

>>9285428
>it's all discursive and nothing else

Oh right, because all the music and art design suddenly becomes simply "discursive" because you feel uncomfortable with the message
Piss off

>>9285426
>b-b-b-b-but he hates SJWs so everything he says must be right!!

>>9285421
He always gave me the impression that he was one drink away from breaking down and crying about some divorce or other.
>>9285426
I'm not being a cultist you idiot, that's why I said what I said. I agree with the kind of thing he said, I'm not him himself. That is: any work which serves any ideal (or anything at all, in fact -- for example, popularity) cannot be art.

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>>9285437
>That is: any work which serves any ideal (or anything at all, in fact -- for example, popularity) cannot be art.

Doubling down on stupid

>>9285443
Nuh-uh

>>9285437
says who?

>>9285447
The most important person in the world.

Me.

>>9285448
>he thinks his great leader Jordan Peterson is the most important person in the world

>>9285456
says who?

>>9285437
>That is: any work which serves any ideal (or anything at all, in fact -- for example, popularity) cannot be art.

Art doesn't exist

>>9285460
Not everyone wants to lower themselves into the muck as much as you do, anon.

>>9285463
Well any work that serves anything at all is art.

>>9285465
no

>>9285437
Christian art that serves divine ideals cannot be art?

>>9285468
Exactly.

This is why Commedia and Paradise Lost are art.

>>9285466
It's true. There's literally nothing that does or will ever exist that can produce any sort of evidence contrary to that fact.

>>9285470
no

>>9285468
Even worse, anything that communicates or expresses anything cannot be art.

>>9285471
It doesn't matter what you say without evidence.

>>9285477
no
>>9285475
>communicates or expresses
now that doesn't sound like serve...

>>9285479
If you communicate you have served the ideal that there has ever been something worth communicating

>>9285479
Yes it does. A work in the service of expression or communication.

I wish people without even the most rudimentary art historical or aesthetic knowledge would just completely refrain from making any comment relating to art.

>>9285482
Aha! I'm wise to your sophistry, old man.
>>9285484
Being in the service of expression isn't the same as expressing something.

Expressing something = I wanna do this.

Serving expression = I want to say this, how do I do this most effectively? It's like advertising or journalism. Bad.

This is pretty basic anon.

>>9285492
>Being in the service of expression isn't the same as expressing something.

In terms of a 'work' yes it is.

>>9285497
no it isn't

>>9285498
Elaborate

>>9285500
no u

>>9285503
It doesn't matter, art isn't 'expression' or 'communication' either you IDIOT

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>when we need to have to give explanations on such a babby tier topic because retards follow the ramblings of a depressed old pseudo-mystic as gospel

>>9285504
Wrong.

>>9285510
No

That's not even undergrad level of characterisation. That's literally just making shit up based on limited experience with a topic

>>9285509

deep

>>9285428
Riefenstahl fits that description much better and if you genuinely find political statements in Frozen you're a fucking cretin.

>>9285513
Elaborate.
>>9285509
Hey, Bloom's not depressed, he just mutters poems to himself and then everything's okay.

>>9285521
Art is about EXISTENCE, man, since like all art EXISTS... think about it

>>9285528
Yeah man that's baffling... hey ever seen Bloom destroy a novel? Jamie pull that video. Jesus Christ he's 400 pounds, that guy will tear your prose to shreds.

>>9285100

>and why cant a movie show that a woman doesnt need a man to be succesful. that shouldnt even be considered a political message

But it is, you fucking moron.

It's pure ideology.

>>9285541
This post is the real ideology

>>9285541
It is only so far as literally every expression is a political message. You're literally operating on pure ideology retard

>>9285541
You seem awfully triggered by a cartoon about little girls and a talking snowman.

This chatroom blows major balls

>>9285550
/pol/ once again demonstrating they're just the opposite face of Tumblr

>>9285547

This response is the real ideology.

>>9285549

>It is only so far as literally every expression is a political message.

That's precisely the point, mein gott.

>>9285550

I'm not triggered at all.

There's no such thing as l'art pour l'art. Retards who think "a women doesn't need a man to be successful" is apolitical are fucking morons, however.

>>9285559
>Buttblasted multireply

Gottem

>>9285556
I don't care who it is, he just seems like a butthurt faggot. I mean the movie was probably shit but it's about an ice princess and a funny reindeer, it ain't All the President's Men.

>>9285559
You're right sorry I thought you were a Peterson Cultie who was singling out Frozen

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>>9285564

I'm perfectly calm, chum.

>>9285559
Unrustle yourself and go ride a bike or go to the zoo or something, this is pathetic.

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>>9285571

>>9285572
Give him an argument or shut the fuck up retard

>>9285575
>hin

Man if you really think Frozen is a political statement and not a studio cashgrab to sell toys to kids you are beyond redemption

>>9285559
>I'm not triggered at all.

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>>9285581

>Implying political statement and cashgrab are mutually exclusive

Mein gott, mein gott...

>>9285575
Not an argument

>>9285588
Yep, absolutely beyond salvation. If Frozen triggers you years after its release you are going to have a real tough time trying to fit in. Anywhere.

>>9285564
>>9285572
>>9285574
>>9285582

Are you guys braindead or something?

He's disagreeing with Peterson's belief that there is such a thing as l'art pour l'art.

>>9285591
Not an argument

>>9285598
He's not triggered by Frozen, he's just talking about how all art has a political dimension.

Unlike Kermit who thinks only things he doesn't like do

>>9285288
Rekt n checked

>>9285588
zizek vs peterson when

>>9285603
We know.

Strange how you can disagree on many different and nuanced things.

>>9285603
>he

I'm baffled by a person above the age of 15 who gets triggered by a fucking kiddie film with a talking snowman and slapstick reindeer.

>>9285612
Zizek would curbstomp him so hard I wouldn't even want to see it
I don't like the cretin but I don't want to see him put on suicide watch

>>9284897
Frozen was a conceptualist video art piece exploring a hypothetical female success without a man. The reason it was computer-generated with deformed characters was because it was like the aforementioned concept was the condition under which the computer produced the art and meaning in a controlled circumstance. If it were live-action I'd have an easier time believing it was propaganda but it wasn't; it was to make little girls feel empowered by buying the merchandise rather than presenting any real opportunity for social change.

>>9285603
Peterson's belief is that art explores or creates, rather than exist for its own sake.

>>9285622
How many levels.of irony are you on?

>>9285625
Utter non sequitor

>>9285629
Ad hominem

>>9285630
Dura lex sed lex.

>>9285347
>emotional foundations poison intellect

>>9285634
Quintus ad templum ambulant.

>>9285635
The problem is his shaky emotional foundation. He's a wreck.

>>9285641
Per ardua ad astra.

>>9285635
yes, that's what I said

it's not like intelligence is some objective truth seeking faculty

you can make up all sorts of conclusions depending on your personality

and peterson seems emotionally weak

>>9285115
Thanks Walt.

>>9285619
Žižek has a deeper philosophical vocabulary, but he's a misogynistic nervous wreck. His whole play is basically that that humanity is hopeless and that we might as well waste time with abstract theories.
He used to have insight in "everyday life" stuff, but nowadays he doesn't, he's very lazy about all current issues. Lazy to the point that he doesn't mind being dishonest, you can tell he has contempt for them. He even admitted to bluffing in the past when he was asked to comment on some art. He's a charlatan.

Really you guys? Frozen is not art? Why does this guy care about art if he has to break everything down in such an arbitrary fashion just to pseud it up? What is even the point? Frozen wasn't any worse than any other Disney movie plotwise. I seriously doubt any of the creators had such an agenda, and even if they did, it doesn't show, so wtf is the point of this asinine bullshit? What a fag, man. This is the guy that loves Nietzsche yet still insists that "if you live in society you have to specialize" even though exceptions clearly exist and Nietzsche basically says that specialists are worthless lol. Etc.

>>9285664
>He even admitted to bluffing in the past when he was asked to comment on some art. He's a charlatan.

That's big talk for someone posting on /lit/ of all places. Bluffing is the name of the game in Academia. You have to present yourself as the subject supposed to know

>>9285686
>and Nietzsche basically says that specialists are worthless lol.
are you talking about the inverse cripples

cause I doubt nietzsche is against the existence of garbagemen or people overseeing the industrial production of paper, that would go counter to his pyramidal conception of society

>>9285664
>His whole play is basically that that humanity is hopeless and that we might as well waste time with abstract theories.


No Zizeks point is that humanity is hopeless unless we grapple with these abstract theories. That its in that domain that we can have a hope, maybe, of constituting some sort of response to the absurd spiral we are faced with.

>>9285695
"...the unfree human being is a blemish upon nature and has no share in any heavenly or earthly comfort..."

For example. He says similar things in other places too, but I just read this one so it's fresh in my mind. Unfree, because specialists do so to get jobs.

>>9285128
>>9285120
Literally not an argument.

Why does someone like him get popular and not someone like Nick Land?

>>9285768
This fucking site always latches itself to the absolute worst memes.

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>>9284897
>Anything written to serve a political purpose isn't art

>>9285773
In short, ease of consumption and feelgood romanticism.

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redditors go and stay go

>>9285773
because he pwns le SJWs in this epic video!

>>9285842
so does BASED ladn

>>9285842
People who do this are often as bad if not worse than SJWs tebehe. In the end it's the same type of cringe.

>>9285922

Nah, SJWs are worse.

Nice try though.

>>9285922
You can't just go after SJWs without going after progressive ideology as a whole. Otherwise you look like a KotakuInAction subscriber.

>>9285939
>n-no guys it's fine
>the SJWs are worse, please trust me guys

>>9285945
That's what KiA does. Or did. Shit, I dunno, I was only there for GG.

KiA has lost all influence. Now it's mostly just people with an even smaller grasp of politics shitting on other people without much grasp of politics.

>>9285945
Why do you need to go after this jootoob fags in the first place? Is it because you're a jobless brainlet loser with no education and nothing to do so you ebin pwn schizo lezboz on youube to get shekels from NEETs?

>>9285945
I have no idea what Kotaku fucking is.

>attempting to apply rigid definitions to;"""""art"""""""

My God, it's pure ideology..

>>9286041
You have no idea what KotakuInAction is.

>>9285955
>GG

That was the most autistic shitfest in human history.

>>9286051
You know I have no idea what Kotaku is

>>9286052
Chanology would like a word
GG was spawned from the unholy union of /v/ and reddit, but that intersection was only made possible by the exposure brought about from chanology. That's when everything started really going to shit.

>>9286052
Doesn't mean it wasn't fun.

You know now I think about it, if it wasn't for GG I wouldn't be reading literature, and I wouldn't be here. There'd be no ""full""chan, so no /leftypol/, so Stirner, so no realisation that /leftypol/ is for plebs, &c.
>>9286058
Sorry I misread you. I think I subconsciously assumed you must have been insulting someone.

>>9286067
Chanology... explain

>>9286073
we are anomalous

we are a region

I fucking HATE, HATE WITH MORE PASSION THAN ANYTHING, these absolute DOLTS who think art pre-20th century existed in a vacuum or some hit. Even pre-art, pre-romantic stuff was INTENTIONALLY drawn like those middle age memes of niggas with knives in their heads and shit because there was a clear movement AGAINST representation, perceived as evil and what not.

The whole of human image production has been extremely ideological, and the fact that a bunch of autists in the 19th century claimed l'art pour l'art doesn't really change that.

>>9284994
>He did not make one side weak and his favorite side strong

Anyone who isn't a righteous christian monarchist drowned in guilt is literally sick and sometimes retarded or crazy in Dosto's books, stfu.

>>9286067
You're right and probably also like 30 lmao

>>9286073
Don't post for the next year and a day, only read threads and observe.

>>9286091
You know, I'm gonna do just that, this place is getting boring. See ya on March 25th 2018 fagbots.

>>9286100
If you break your vows every book you read in public will turn into Infinite Jest.

>>9285697
so he is both foolish and dangerous

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>>9286086
I'm 18 and came here through gamergate.
I was the cancer that killed 4chan, you're welcome.

>>9286231
You too? What was your progression like?

Do you mean you came to 4chan as a whole 'cause of GG? 'cause that's pretty plebby senpai

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>>9286243
>Do you mean you came to 4chan as a whole 'cause of GG? 'cause that's pretty plebby senpai
Yes. I am the ultimate pleb. I actually visited infinity chan before ever coming here, though, so that makes my origin story a little edgier at least.
I was homeschooled until junior year of high school, so I was a socially-underdeveloped aspie. I was also a stuck-up dick for most of my teenage years. Eventually I realized I had no friends, and that I wouldn't want to be my own friend if I was another person, which sent me spiraling into depression etc etc. But it also snapped me out of being a gamergate-tier tard, so that's good.
Ironically I never visited /pol/ until after I already hated 90% of the things about it. I started mainly with /v/, then /g/ and /k/, then /int/, and now /lit/. I still visit /g/ though, it's good stuff.
I mostly recovered through acute self-awareness and autistic lurking skills, and my preference shift online was mirrored (probably led) by a personality shift irl. I'm slightly less of a pretentious dick now.
Someday I'll start a recovery group for newfriends like me. Until then feel free to like, comment and subscribe.

>>9286294
Aside from your initial plebness I think we weren't too different. I got into 4chan BECAUSE of my friends ("haha guys guess what 4chan did this time"), but then I only got into GG and /leftypol/ & /lit/ because I lost them all.

I spent two years browsing 4chan in the school library.

>autistic lurking skills
My nigga

But seriously you sound like you've dunked the other way

Gamergate was autistic, but it wasn't harmful. It was a bunch of spergs getting together and hashing out their vague and uneducated views of the world.

Although I do wonder how that Vivian game turned out. And if anyone bought it.

>>9286351
>/leftypol/
...anon, I.....
Don't misunderstand, I actually still agree with the ostensible premise of gg, i.e. responsibility in journalism and stop pushing idpol in my fucking games reeee. I just cringe at the kind of tribal shitflinging that the KotakuInAction types seems to devolve to.
vivian a cute

Finally, since I've already admitted my newness I might as well ask: do mods usually nuke threads when they get to this level of personal discussion? I've had similar conversations in threads that 404'd a couple of posts in.

>>9284999
read animal farm

>>9286454
I'm with you. I stuck it out for a while -- longer than I should have -- but eventually I was too butthurt by the anti-SJWness.

I do think it was really interesting. Even from the start you could see the cloud of rage condense into two distinct clumps of inarticulate spittle -- anti-SJWs and muh ethics best spittle. The way they played into and against each other and the role of aGG, such as it existed, is something I'd genuinely love to look at if it wasn't so mind-numbingly autistic.

I worry people will look back on it as a precursor to the events which influenced Trump's election.

Also mods generally don't do shit unless it's blatantly political, and even then only maybe. Threads either fade back into topic, or die.

He obviously made a mistake in imagining a dichotomy between propaganda and art.

>>9286476
>I worry people will look back on it as a precursor to the events which influenced Trump's election.
I feel this. I was unironically saying "it's about ethics in video game journalism" and I feel like actual discourse was held there that's going to get whitewashed by the political side of things. But I think it's inaccurate to say gamergate had nothing to do with Trump - it certainly reinforced the struggle against the left among its members, and I think set the stage for reddit to be dominated by Trump fans rather than rubberstamp democrats like you would expect from that site. And I think reddit was a significant part of Trump's victory - not huge, or necessarily game-winning, but important nonetheless.
Someday I want to write a book, or at least a series of essays, breaking down and analyzing gamergate, /pol/ et al. Normies have never understood the awkward mixture of jaded satire and genuine fear of the "for the memes" attitude. Maybe we can get a bunch of /lit/ anons to write an anthology.

>>9285626

That's not even irony; that's functionalist-capitalist media for you.

>>9285616
you are straight up retarded my friendo.

>>9285622
this poster is the like one of two people in this thread with any sense

>>9285100
people aren't so much mad at the message itself, but realizing that there is a message in it makes them have to confront the fact that many of the movies they enjoy are similarly filled with ideology, even if it was invisible to them at the time

>>9285267
the answer should have been "anyone weak and depressed who has read nothing in the way of classics or philosophy and needs someone to spoonfeed it to them with explicit instructions on 'how it will improve your life'"

>>9285431
Actually yeah. The music might be the most discursive of all the elements that make up the film, famalam.

>>9286525
>the feelings of my disaffected generation have NEVER been felt before, our thoughts and feelings MUST be recorded for posterity because of their ENDURING UNIQUENESS AND VALUE

lol

>>9287351
This shithole is only a tiny sliver of my generation, and I don't think the recording is "necessary" in a historic sense, I just think it would be fun to do.
ty for reply though.

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Peterson threads seem to bring out the worst /lit/ has to offer

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>>9284897
Frozen and The Devils are both political pieces. What is there to argue about? Peterson is allowed to enjoy something while still acknowledging it as propaganda, particularly if it agrees with some of his ideas.

80% of the posts ITT are totally missing the meat of what's going on in the OP.

people who actually read books don't buy into this cult of personality nonsense. and what's sad is peterson barely has any personality to begin with.

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CLEAN YOUR ROOM.

>>9285120
The first post you replied to expresses an idea that is common to a great deal of writing regarding Dostoevsky. Stop being pleb anon

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>>9285649
Sort yourself out!

>>9286081
>Anyone who isn't a righteous christian monarchist drowned in guilt is literally sick and sometimes retarded or crazy in Dosto's books, stfu.
Yeah, but so are righteous christian monarchists.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakhtin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menippean_satire

>>9284897

the guy shilling for gulag archipelago everywhere he goes talking about frozen being propaganda.

its coo, now i dont have to take anything he says seriously ever again

>>9287473

I'd say /r9k/ tourists are the worst /lit/ has to offer. /pol/ tourists have a decent chance of having read a book, even if it's only two or three books that pander to their politics.

sage for identity politics cancer

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Isn't Jordan Peterson big into George Orwell too? George Orwell who authored 'All Art is Propaganda'?

>>9289641
doesnt mean he has to agree with him

>>9284897

He's right is he not? That is the exact problem Nabokov had with Dostoevski's works

As a piece of Art the Devils is inferior to almost everything else Dostoevski wrote, but as a piece of remarkably accurate prophecy, it is one of the most impressive and prescient things ever written. But yeah, its function is largely different to art.

>>9285100

Yeah, it is obviously a political message, a good deal more so than the Devils, whose political message is not nearly as overt and blatant propaganda.

>>9285288

Yes, this is obvious. There is no other plausible explanation for the sheer amount spiteful and vitriolic hate the man receives, when he is simply a mild-mannered psychologist trying to help people improve their lives, in an era of rootlessness and atomized distress. I sense either jealously or a profound lack of self-awareness and unwillingness to face hard truths like a man.

>>9285426

Oh yes, that's some real "art" that is.

If taking a shit on a piece of paper also constitutes "art"

>>9285484

You are playing word games, which is of course the norm for aesthetic subjectivists who think standards are some kind of backwards relic of the past.

Did Mozart not know anything about music? Because he would feel the need to call modern atonal music something other than music, and not an art-form at all.

>>9285686

And yet Peterson himself is something of a generalist, but that did not stop him from specialising. Likewise Nietzsche specialised first in philology. You are being very selective here, and clearly just want to tear the man down for some reason you aren't divulging.

>>9286081

You have a moronic interpretation of what constitutes the ideological. A conscious exploration of cultural norms and the temporal/spiritual world is not ideological, but simply an artistic reflection of subjective experience. Ideology is something more than this, and was always understood as such; true art stands in opposition to ideological manias, because the people who believe them are pathological simplifiers of reality, whereas the exploration of reality through art is the opposite of this.

Indeed, art becomes completely nonsensical when divorced from its cultural context, but that does not make it ideological. Ideological "art" is a deliberate attempt to wholly undermine and subvert (root and branch) the existing structure and culturally-rooted understanding of what constitutes art. It is pathological and seeks to simplify reality for its own purposes (radical social and cultural change).

>>9289641

JP does not strike me as being particularly artistic: he is a psychologist with some philosophical understanding. Otherwise, he wouldn't be all that keen on Orwell, particularly on 1984, which as a piece of art, is trash (even as political prophecy it is feeble in comparison with Brave New World). Orwell definitely was not much of an artist--more a political pamphleteer.

If he wants to beat the leftists in academia, he should spread his own belief systems instead of complaining about bias.

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>>9290230
>anything that attempts reinforce a given culture is art
>anything that opposes said culture is propaganda

>>9290243
This. His expertise is in psychology and embarrassing psychoanalytical readings of art. This is why his artistic tastes are laughable and he should stay the hell away from politics.

>>9290243
>even as political prophecy it is feeble in comparison with Brave New World
And that's how I know you're a shitter.

>>9284897
Yes, The Devils is propaganda, not art. That doesn't mean it isn't a good book though.
What is the issue here again?

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>a thread of people literally defending frozen
4chan is way too reddit for me

>>9288144
>see this post
>actually feel compelled to do so for whatever reason
>immediately feel better after doing so
wtf I love Jung now?!

>>9290243
i think i remember him saying he painted that logo he uses

>>9290573
this

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>>9285540
Hahahahaha

>>9290573
It's the ultimate 4chan dilemma, to be contrarian about a popular movie, or to be contrarian about a popular professor.

>>9290243
>Otherwise, he wouldn't be all that keen on Orwell, particularly on 1984, which as a piece of art, is trash

Maximus Plebeius

>>9285100
> and why cant a movie show that a woman doesnt need a man to be succesful. that shouldnt even be considered a political message

because nobody fucking cares, we know, and this movie is just a waste o ftime.

>>9290763
Monks were right all along. Order, simplicity, frugality.

Sort yourself oat!

>>9291033
Extended it to cleaning my entire apartment.

Maybe it's because I haven't cleaned it in several months (yes I know I'm disgusting) but I genuinely do feel less depressed and more energetic now. Maybe the fact that normal people do this like once a week is part of why they're so happy?

>>9291130
It helps. External and internal order are related.

Throwing out old stuff is great as well. Get down to the necessities. Arrange them neatly. Clean.

Make your bed.

>>9291150
Maybe also the small sense of accomplishment. It's affirms ones ability in a sense.

If everything you have isn't made by your own hands, you're doing it wrong.

Civilisation was a mistake.

>>9285541
*sniffs*

>>9291171
Yes. Baby steps every day. Keep chiselling, lad.

>>9290156
>as a piece of remarkably accurate prophecy, it is one of the most impressive and prescient things ever written
How? I don't even understand what it was all about.

>>9285265

Pseudo intellectuals/freshmen college students.

He's wants to be the Zizek of the right.

>>9291150

>It helps. External and internal order are related.

Who the fuck wants internal order? Sounds really boring, gay and autistic.

>>9289539
t.commie

if you look hard enough isnt everything propaganda

>>9284897
The guy didn't catch Peterson in some trap or contradiction at all. He pointed out an aspect of a movie. So fucking what.

>>9285773
Any philosopher who promotes suicide or human genocide is unlikely to become popular.

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I read this today, was too interesting not to share.

>To conclude, liberalism has won, but it may be decisively unsatisfactory. Communism was a mad extension of liberal rationalism, and everyone has seen that it neither works nor is desirable. And, although fascism was defeated on the battlefield, its dark possibilities were not seen through to the end. If an alternative is sought there is nowhere else to seek it. I would suggest that fascism has a future, if not the future. Much that Fukuyama
says points in that direction. The facts do too. The African and Near Eastern nations, which for some reason do not succeed easily at modernity, have temptations to find meaning and self-assertion in varieties of obscurantism. The European nations, .which can find no rational ground for the exclusion of countless potential immigrants from their homelands, look back to their national myths. And the American Left has enthusiastically embraced the fascist arguments against modernity and Eurocentrism - understood as rationalism. - Allan Bloom, 1989

It seems that Peterson is dealing with what Bloom is describing: communism is historically dead, but resurrected zombie-like as thirst for social justice; this produces reaction in turn. End of history stuff? The Last Man would be an eminently ideological being, a consumer of politics.

It makes me wonder if this is the end of the anthropocene period, if history hasn't arrived at a new phase, where the planet runs (or simply becomes aware that it always has, and always will run) on capitalism like a perpetual motion machine, like an infinite popcorn machine popping up kernels which helpfully walk themselves into the machine to be popped. I believe this is what Negarestani talks about when he talks about "crossing the cognitive rubicon:" a network of autonomous production systems now basically runs itself on human desire and human happiness, and we have to keep up with it, because it's going to lead us into the future. Nick Land, of course, has written the same.

Peterson would no doubt hit the ceiling if he heard this. When you have a *perfectly materialistic society,* then nothing is more rational than the pursuit of capital, the super-enabler of those ideas which that society valorizes most: individuality, happiness and freedom, with no strings attached. This is where liberalism takes us, via the consumer society and the libidinal economy. And eventually, perhaps, to an automatic, regulated planet, just as Baudrillard predicted: the intensive-care phase of planetary civilization, where the human body has its own breathing done for it by a respirator.

I prefer Freud/Lacan/Zizek to Jung, but whatever allows you to process this madness and still be able to impersonate a human being is, as everything else in consumer Disneyland, one's own god-awful choice. Whether it's archetypal suffering or squirming on the analyst's couch.

Cool thread gents, carry on. Sorry about the long post. I think I need a drink.

>>9292440
Incidentally, the rest of that essay is here, if anyone wants to read it.

https://archive.org/details/AllanBloomResponseToFukuyamasendOfHistoryAndTheLastMan

>>9292440
>communism is historically dead
Are you serious? Communism is literally what most of the EU and a lot of other western countries, and eastern countries like China, are living in right now. It has completely integrated its ideological, social and "ethical" tenets into "capitalist" society.

Did you people really think that the first phase of the project was all that there was to it?

>>9285540
lol

>>9285541
You, and anyone who thinks this post is anything but trash needs to leave

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>>9284897
>Anything written to serve a political purpose is propaganda, not art

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no one in this thread has read maps of meaning

read it

>>9292440

>Communism
>Liberal Rationalism

After reading that one blurb of nonsense I can confidently dismiss the rest without reading it.

>>9292705
Why. Does he do anything other than concatenate The Gulag Arch., Kneecha, and Jung's ideas?

>>9292440
>It makes me wonder if this is the end of the anthropocene period,

Kind of a pedantic point, but the Anthropocene is a geological period, marked by the noticable effect of humans on large ecological systems (climate change mostly, but also extinction and the human caused migration of other species).

There is a lot of debate about when the anthropocene begins. The earliest suggestions are 1492, when things like potatoes, rats, smallpox and horses move from Europe to America.

Other people cite events like Automobile, and significant increases in lead on the surface of the ocean. Others cite things like the Three Gorges Dam in china or fracking in America, whose artificial lakes are thought to be causing earthquakes.

I'm not sure of Land/Negarestani style accelerationism, of machines replacing humans, marks a fundamentally different geological period. The Anthropocene was never about Humans directly changing ecology, but their activity doing so. At this point, capitalism is still a human activity. If some insane AI does eventually replace Humans, and capitalism continues on without us, I'm not sure this in itself marks a significant shift in the geological outcome.

It could be accompanied by a significant shift, but human extinction isn't enough to warrant the end of the Anthropocene alone.

>>9285540
top

>>9292834
Good points, and thanks for the clarification. I've heard this term tossed around a couple of times by continental types (usually with some passing geological reference) but this is actually a well-thought out post and hardly pedantic, so cheers for all that.

>>9293001
Yeah, Anthropocene is a tricky word and has some ideological connotations, it's still debated as a term by geologists. The wikipedia page summarizes these debates pretty well in the opening paragraphs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene

But it has a broader philosophical application, especially when used by people like Zizek. And as much as agree with the conclusions of Zizek and other continental philosopher types about the nature of 21st century capitalism and it's impact on the planet, I do somewhat cringe everytime I hear them use the term "Anthropocene". It's essentially a false appeal to science, making their political/philosophical argument take on the air of objective science.

This isn't limited to anthropocene, topology and quantum mechanics jargon get tossed into philosophy all the time as well. The key when reading these phrases to parse them as metaphors, to dissect the seemingly scientific term into it's political meaning. To not do this, to just accept them on the authority of their scientific origins, is to let the authority of scientism/positivism carry the weight of whatever argument is being made.

That said, the Landian Meltdown or other Accelerationist ideas COULD mark a new geological age, but you won't find any geologists worried about "whats after the anthropocene" until that term stops making sense.

>>9293084
Oh, I should add that the Holocene has lasted for the last 11,000 years. If the model of the Anthropocene ends up only applying for a 200-500 year period, I'd guess that what we call the Anthropocene will be lumped into some new geological period, it will be the transition between the post-ice age Holocene and the post-human age after the collapse of civilization.

>>9290292

That's largely correct (if it seeks to destroy said culture for sure). How can art make any sense outside of the culture it is rooted in? It doesn't. Thus such art is a contradiction and only has value as political propaganda.

>>9284897

>Redditors too fucking stupid to distinguish politics from propaganda

Not surprised considering all politics is propaganda for those fucking drones. What a retard. Why even bother bringing your retardation here? You might go Reddit Gold in your stupid little echo chamber filled with idiots.

>>9292168

Literally everyone longs for it. You are obviously in denial, and likely very young and inexperienced if you think human beings like internal chaos, which is really just another word for mental illness (which unsurprisingly is growing exponentially, as people try to excuse it as pathology, rather than admit it is a product of a poorly ordered inner self).

>>9292673
It is human nature and evolutionary biology that determines the reality that men need women and women need men; almost all the people who think otherwise have been ideologically corrupted, otherwise they wouldn't feel compelled to deny their own biologically-determined nature.

>>9290337

Sorry, but does the world of today seem more like Brave New World or 1984? If you honestly think the latter you are a complete idiot. The entire pharmaceutical industry is intently focused on trying to find a Soma-like drug, and if it was discovered, most people would embrace it as a solution to their problems. Then there is the feelies, the intimacy-devoid sexual behaviour (sex as mere pleasure devoid of emotional ties), the disdain for serious literature like Shakespeare because it doesn't have immediate utilitarian value, and so on. It is almost an exact portrait of the world we are rapidly tumbling towards.

>>9292093

See the tolerant liberal father, largely devoid of positive beliefs, produce a feverish and ideological offspring who ta

It was 19th century liberalism that gave birth to and provided the manure from which radical ideologies could spread.

Then, I forget the name, but one of Pyotr's conspirators proposed a plan for the future that was eerily similar to what Soviet Communism became ("start with absolute liberty, end in absolute despotism"): a kind of State-run micro-managed organisation of society, with an "acceptable" collateral loss of tens of millions of lives to reach the desired utopian goal of progress and the future. The disdain for the human individual, their lives and aspirations, is remarkably prescient, and this character is really a lot like Lenin.

Kirilov is also a fascinating character study in ideological mania and its tendency to deny humanity (it is anti-human).

>>9294294
How is any of this prescient when all the ideologies described in it, and all the social movements they caused, were present in Russia at that time? Your "Soviet Communism" has already been described in Plato's Republic.

>>9284897
did peterson respond to him?

>>9294340

Because he predicted their outcome with a remarkable clarity and accuracy that other writers of the period did not. And I don't think you've read (and certainly not understood) Plato's Republic if you think that: that book is not a political pamphlet you silly child. At most you will have read Karl Popper on Plato or something.

>>9294340

And please tell me, why are you expounding your moronic and ill-informed opinion on books you either have not read or do not understand? It's bloody embarrassing.

>>9294398
>>Because he predicted their outcome with a remarkable clarity and accuracy that other writers of the period did not.
Thomas Hobbes did if you don't like Plato.

I don't understand, do you think Dostoyevski lived 5 thousand years ago or something? Most of the prominent writers and philosophers in the western world have been recycling the same ideas for centuries upon centuries.

>>9294409
>>muhh Thomas Hobbes

Again, touting the name of a person you clearly have not read. There is no relation whatsoever between Hobbes and Communism (aside from perhaps atheism), let alone between the thought of Hobbes and the thought of Dostoevski. Keep prattling that garbage though, and pretending there wasn't anything new about 19th century nihilism, nor the eventual consequences of this philosophical shift in the 20th.

Stop pretending that the ideas of philosophers and writers aren't rooted in their cultural/historical context as well--the ideas of one influence the ideas of another, but that does not make their ideas the same. You are being rather pig-headed here.

>>9294409

Just because Hobbes justified autocratic power doesn't mean his ideas were Communistic. Wtf are you talking about?

>>9294271
Yeah, so where's your proof of any of this? You sound like an anti-vaccer. Face it: there is no grand carrot-lead conspiracy to mould the human race.

And no one has sex without emotional intimacy. Even in the not-as-ubiquitous-as-you-think one night stands. Have you ever had sex?

Meanwhile, we have North Korea. Right here, right now.

>>9294887
>no one has sex without emotional intimacy

What an absurd statement. I've had plenty of one night stands, as did most other people at University, many of whom went out 4+ times a night for no reason aside from mindless hedonistic self-indulgence. Looking back one sees how pathetic this behaviour is--people are more enslaved to their pleasures and passions than they have ever been.


"Meanwhile, we have North Korea. Right here, right now."

wow, this idiot actually thinks North Korea is representative of the world at large rather than a leftover relic of a completely defunct mode of control.

I didn't say it was a "conspiracy", but it is obviously the trend towards which the world is moving: ever more comfort and pleasure and material indulgence, the only things that much matter to the utilitarian cost/benefit mindset. Our entire culture, in politics, in economics and society at large, is focused almost entirely on frivolous consumption. North Korea is not at all like 1984 because 1984 was about the world at large, not some irrelevant speck noone gives a shit about.

>>9284897
Wasn't the point about Frozen not that women don't need a man to be successful, but rather that you shouldn't jump into a relationship at first sight, because it might end up being harmful? I mean she ends up being together with the other guy Kristoff, who wasn't exactly prince charming, but the point was that they felt happy being with each other as compared to the prince who, despite having good looks, wasn't a very moral person. Or did I watch the wrong movie?

>>9284897
>anything written to serve a political purpose (rather than to explore and create) is propaganda, not art

Why then is all the literature he recommends so didactic? I don't recall seeing any Nabokov in his lists. Does Nabokov's passing association with the postmodern in literature disqualify him from Peterson's attention?

>>9294138

>Literally everyone longs for it.

You're wrong. I don't. Q.E.D.

>You are obviously in denial, and likely very young and inexperienced if you think human beings like internal chaos

Stagnation is death friend.

>which is really just another word for mental illness

No it's not.

>(which unsurprisingly is growing exponentially, as people try to excuse it as pathology, rather than admit it is a product of a poorly ordered inner self).

Well that's a retarded dichotomy on your own terms.

1/10, fucking terrible post friend :)

>>9295356
I'm so glad I only read the last sentence in your post. You're a cretin.

>>9285437
>That is: any work which serves any ideal (or anything at all, in fact -- for example, popularity) cannot be art.
Kant died 213 years ago, sorry.

>>9285697
>No Zizeks point is that humanity is hopeless unless we grapple with these abstract theories
Motto of one of his lectures (or interviews, whatever) was literally "don't act, think!", which I think is a much welcome reversal of priorities.

>>9294357
No, he instead broke down crying, like he usually does. Then he began to stutter in his usual whiny manner. Something about "purpose", I don't know.

>>9292517
>Communism is literally what most of the EU and a lot of other western countries, and eastern countries like China, are living in right now

are you fucking retarded???

>>9296723
Thinking makes no money.

It's pie-in-the-sky bullshit.

>>9284976
Don't those two need to go hand and hand to be thoroughly expressed and shared?

>>9284994
Well, I haven't read that book. Though it seems to me difficult for one person to equally convey the pros and cons of both sides if they themselves hold one above the other.

>>9297453
Please explain the key differences.

>>9284999
You're forgetting that people don't form beliefs based wholly on things that can be "proven".

Also, Peterson's a disenfranchised dude who's beliefs are hit or miss, but here he's concerned of the covert affect on the impressional audience subjected to the moral agendas of the entertainment industry, not the actual content itself.

>>9285002
>All to defend a shitty disney movie?

More like a poorly concieved argument by an unsuccessful academic turned YouTuber\pop-intellectual.

And it's not backing him into a trap. The criticism of ideas and arguments are how ideas progressed, and offering a dissenting opinion forces people to think for themselves instead of accepting whatever some PHD-holding "smart" person says to be true.

>>9285541
This is why bipartisan politics has so completely fucked political thinking.

Every issue not blatantly left to the consideration of the individual is thrown in to a swirling pot of preconceived ideas. A stance on any one belief is automatically associated with a bunch of other unrelated shit. Few people can detach themselves from this mindset and consider any one issue in a vacuum without throwing in the dick-waving, cluster-fuck of Western personal identities.

>>9291205
Remove yourself from my internet then, cretin

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>>9284999