>tfw you finally realized that Postmodernism is a dead-end

>>9201333
Woah, deep.

Deconstruction is forever

>>9201333
what did it for you op?

>>9201345

I've been listening to Jordan Peterson rag on postmodernism for a while, so I decided to read Derrida. And my god he was right. How does this second-rate philosophy grab anyone?

>>9201333
so is New Sincerity

Just write whatever you want, however you want. Don't limit yourself with labels.

File: 1480474127147.jpg (116KB, 728x325px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 728x325px

>>9201333
>tfw you finally realized that all literary movements will now repeat in reverse until neanderthal finger paintis and stone-stacking become the new movement carrying all of pop culture on its shoulders

>>9201358

You joke but you're more right than you know, and that scares the shit out of me.

>>9201357
New Sincerity actually has the most long-term potential of the rather new ideologies, it has a spiritual and liberating feel to it. DFW discovered the mysticism in New Sincerity.

>>9201358
>>9201363
nah you're both dumb

>>9201369
Labeling "sincerity" as a movement is fucking depressing. People simply writing what they want to doesn't need to have a label on it. I'm so sick of genres.

>>9201356

Very little wisdom is passed down anymore in our culture. People gorge themselves on knowledge and facts but can't integrate them into a strong perspective. Wisdom is the ability to identufy significance, to see what is essential and non essential. In an age where everyone talks about quantum physics we have lost touch with our foundations and no longer know what is important.

So of course, being unsatisfied with knowledge and an idea of scientific rationalism being used in places that it simply does not succeed, people become jaded, cynical, critical. "Proof" is asked of things that a healthy human knows the way it knows the glow of a fire on its skin. It becomes reductionist and despairs of finding purpose. Nothing sacred survives this disease, and thus you have entire generations who lack spiritual foundation in life. Antideppressents, other drugs, constantly stimulating entertainment, consumerism, and goals borne of vanity are used to try and fill the void, but eventually you develop a tolerance and can no longer get "high". Further extremities of existential panic ensue.

Its not pretty.

>>9201403
scientific rationalism attempting to find significance in the universe is like looking for repeating sequential patterns of letters and words in shakespeare in order to discover the significance of shakespeare

>>9201410
I don't think "new sincerity" is a real alternative
and like it or not, post-modernism was necessary to clear the air more or less.
what we need is what Evola touted decades before, a total revolt against the modern world to bring us to an "older" sensibility, though not necessarily primitivism

>>9201427
New Sincerity is not an alternative

The alternative is to not give a flying fuck about genres and labels and do your thing

People are so spellbound by reigning cultural modes of engagement with their craft, its annoying

File: 10372181_10152223497033382_3977625278738897952_n.jpg (91KB, 629x616px) Image search: [Google]

91KB, 629x616px

>>9201427
You realize it's already happening, right?

Why do you think 4chan, the bleeding edge of tomorrow's mass culture, has come around to Apostolic Christianity in the last few years?

>>9201427

It's called the Archaic revival. (not to be confused with the Terence Mckenna book, though he is relevent here). Evola didn't pioneer the idea, he was just another hand carrying the torch.

>>9201434
because they're simply reactionary and have no grounding ideals to speak of

4chan "Getting a kick out of annoying people The Website"

>>9201447

And just how do you know that they knew this? I hate to play the pics or it didn't happen game, but you see, I'm of the mind that I shouldn't just trust what you say, otherwise you're likely to play me as the fool.

>>9201454

Don't worry I deleted it. The bad man with his silly lies is going away now. Enjoy venerating beloved "Francis".

>>9201461

Don't get me wrong. I'm not the same anon you were replying to with the Francis pic, he's probably a Jew, but I'd just like to know if you were making that up or not, and if you weren't can you site some legitimate sources?

>>9201395
This isn't our fault though, blame early 20th century hipsters obsessed with chaining everything up and infantilizing it, New Sincerity is the result of these wanting to break free from the containment of established ideologies and philosophies, to create a message that is ultimately, entirely new. It may be terribly unfortunate that it's like this but it's the world we live in.

>>9201410

yeah. science is the knowledge of the non-essential. there's no scientific knowledge that 'matters' on it's own. light is made of photons? who gives a fuck. (knowledge of the direct connection between personal integrity and your ability to feel at ease in unknown or difficult circumstances)? well if you don't know what there's no science in the world that can help you.

>>9201427

that's a great idea. lets replace defensive irony (not really meaning anything you do) with sincerity.

>>9201475
Then just do that and dont label it, for fucks sake

Let other people figure out what to call your work
If you begin from pre-existing templates, you limit yourself in a way that isn't conducive to honest self expression, unless you find yourself "at home" in these templates, and are not simply using them as crutches in the face of unrestrained self expression

>>9201444
>thinking 4chan is "just reactionary"
>saying (((They)))
get out

>>9201431
is this ironic? or is this a genuine lack of awareness?
I can't tell!

>>9201520
my bad, "we're"
>>9201528
I'm speaking in sweeping generalizations. Mostly thinking of /pol/.

>>9201528
I thought both those posts were commenting the same post

Yes its sincere, sincerely go fuck yourself

>>9201356
Derrida is a satirist.

File: Xd0W4wH.jpg (50KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 1280x720px

>tfw symbolist

File: dfw_party.png (284KB, 2000x1000px) Image search: [Google]

284KB, 2000x1000px

>>9201333
>“For me, the last few years of the postmodern era have seemed a bit like the way you feel when you're in high school and your parents go on a trip, and you throw a party. You get all your friends over and throw this wild disgusting fabulous party. For a while it's great, free and freeing, parental authority gone and overthrown, a cat's-away-let's-play Dionysian revel. But then time passes and the party gets louder and louder, and you run out of drugs, and nobody's got any money for more drugs, and things get broken and spilled, and there's cigarette burn on the couch, and you're the host and it's your house too, and you gradually start wishing your parents would come back and restore some fucking order in your house. It's not a perfect analogy, but the sense I get of my generation of writers and intellectuals or whatever is that it's 3:00 A.M. and the couch has several burn-holes and somebody's thrown up in the umbrella stand and we're wishing the revel would end. The postmodern founders' patricidal work was great, but patricide produces orphans, and no amount of revelry can make up for the fact that writers my age have been literary orphans throughout our formative years. We're kind of wishing some parents would come back. And of course we're uneasy about the fact that we wish they'd come back--I mean, what's wrong with us? Are we total pussies? Is there something about authority and limits we actually need? And then the uneasiest feeling of all, as we start gradually to realize that parents in fact aren't ever coming back--which means we're going to have to be the parents.”

'post modernism', 'modernism' 'yada yada' 'yada yada 3.0'
These are just 'ad campaigns' for writing degrees, they are just 'fashions' and fads', yeah they have a place among eternity as everything does.

I suppose it is: There is a population, lets say only 300 people existed.

Lets say 5 writers existed.

2 of the writers come together. Another 2 come together. And 1 alone.

They have to convince and teach the 300ish people, 'what their tastes are', 'what they should desire, want to, and enjoy consuming'.

Hey, 300 people, look at my writing, this is the best, this is valuable, this is worthy to read, you will enjoy and gain from this.

No, look at my writing, this is what is good now, this is what is cool now, this is what is valuable now. This will offer you the most pleasure, happiness, insight, comfort, deloneliness, cool points.

Now some time passes, and a few more people are born, a few more writers and they grow up and read and study and observe all this and they say... hmmm. What is really the most valuable, what is really the most cool, what is really the most worthy, what really offers the most pleasure, happiness, insight, knowledge, wisdom, deloneliness, cool points; what should our new product be, what should the new style be that is different from these pants and these cargo shorts and these jorts and these jean skirts and these jncos and these khakis and these thongs? We have to make the future, we have to make it different, better, newer, cooler, more cool, more happy, more smart, more worthy, fresh.

>>9201403
Where can I read more stuff like this post?

>>9202981
That was a bunch of nothing.

>>9203239
>That was a bunch of nothing.
A nihilist are we?
>points to the world
>thats a bunch of nothing

Explain you petty fuggert
What didnt you understand, I will hold your hand and choo choo the light into your assholic face orfice

Nobody have a damn about the so called "post" debates in academia past the early 90's.

Have any of you ever studied past honors level?

>>9203310
Substanceless substanceless contentless nothingness comment offering nothing.

Substanceless nothing no information not contributing anything nothing nothing no info substanceless contributionless nothingness?

>tfw you finally realized that humanity is a dead-end

>>9203512
no sentient techno-capitalist ai singularity without humans homeslice

File: 154.png (1MB, 600x1384px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 600x1384px

>>9201395

>>9202981
SHUT UP

>>9203266
SHUUUUUT UUUUUP

>>9204100
>>9204106
If I could get some weed I would probably post less, any yall live in cali?

>>9201427
yeah, David Foster Wallace predicted this reaction. he called it "knuckle-dragging conservatism."

>>9202981
Your analogy is shit. Society isn't an operation of 300 individuals living in a vacuum. Modernism and Postmodernism weren't necessarily manifestos widely accepted- they were modes of thinking that reflect their times.

Rose are red violets are blue, harambe was killed by the legend27, more proof that bill clinton did 9/11

File: Alchemy-man.jpg (114KB, 429x432px) Image search: [Google]

114KB, 429x432px

>>9201356
>How does this second-rate philosophy grab anyone?
People have a lot of dumb ideas

>>9205293
pottle balling the kotten lack

>>9201520
I enjoyed that movie, too! :-)

File: screeching.gif (2MB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 480x270px

>>9205299
What did he mean by this?

>>9201333
That's babby tier. Postmodernism can't end until the Renaissance project concludes in one way or another

>>9201356
What kind of topsy-turvy world is this where Peterson isn't second-rate and Derrida is?

>>9205325
explain plz

>>9201356
HAH

>>9201475
>Newness

Haha.

>>9203011
>>9201431

proof we need post-modern philosophy

>>9201648
>The great art style of any period is that which relates itself to the true insights of its time. But an age may repudiate its real insights, retreat to the insights of the past – which, though not its own, seem safer to act upon – and accept only an art that corresponds to this repudiation; in which case the age will go without great art, to which truth of feeling is essential. In a time of disasters the less radical artists, like the less radical politicians, will perform better since, being familiar with the expected consequences of what they do, they need less nerve to keep to their course. But the more radical artists, like the more radical politicians, become demoralized because they need so much more nerve than the conservatives in order to keep to a course that, guided by the real insights of the age, leads into unknown territory. Yet if the radical artist’s loss of nerve becomes permanent, then art declines as a whole, for the conservative artist rides only on momentum and eventually loses touch with the insights of his time – by which all genuine artists are nourished. Or else society may refuse to have any new insights, refuse to make new responses – but in that case it would be better not to talk about art at all.

>proof we need post-modern philosophy
>proof weed need less newfags
>proof that we need no moderators

>>9205377
The delirium of "the time" is ridiculous. All good artists try to be true to what they see, but to think that the major influence should be the "Zeitgeist" is ridiculous, and leads directly to all of this pseudo-avant-gardism that we see now. Artists should look into themselves first and foremost. They should learn what has already been done in order to start from there.

This passage also shows one of the worse tendencies of the modern artist: the rebels are conservatives in different garb, and being anti-establishment they are creatively dependent on the existence of an establishment. Now, the avant-garde and the "radical" is the most hackneyed cliche in art, because of this type of simplistic "progressive" narrative (i.e. that art is becoming progressively more and more "free"). But it isn't becoming free, this superficial diversity is just the myriad clothes of spiritual and intellectual homogeneity.

The "radical" artist finds an easy way through the nihilism of the modern art world, to the lack of any sort of criteria or guidelines, by trying to move the project of Duchamp and Pollock (or Burroughs or Cage) even further. This inevitably fails; humans, without the contradictory pressures of grand tradition and desire for freedom forcing them to find ever more creative escape routes, will almost always be derivative and thus sabatoge their own quest for "true originality". They find that the lack of "official values" (from God, from the state, from the academy, etc.) makes their own anti-valuation meaningless.

From this void, the artist can't just excel: he has to liberate himself by inventing his own chains, and thus restart the project that the postmodernists have halted. He needs to be his own master, choose his own rules, and create artistic ideals, values, out of nothing. The next great artist will be nothing short of superhuman.

>>9205496
>They should learn what has already been done in order to start from there.

>"Cubism originated not only from the art that preceded it, but also from a complex of attitudes that embodied the optimism, boldness, and self-confidence of the highest stage of industrial capitalism, of a period in which the scientific outlook had at last won a confirmation that only some literary men quarreled with seriously, and in which society seemed to have demonstrated its complete capacity to solve its most serious internal as well as environmental problems. Cubism . . . expressed the positivist or empirical state of mind with its refusal to refer to anything outside the concrete experience of the particular discipline, field, or medium in which one worked; and it also expressed the empiricist’s faith in the supreme reality of concrete experience. Along with this . . . went an all-pervasive conviction that the world would inevitably go on improving, so that no matter what chances one took with the new, the unknown, or the unforeseeable, there was no risk of getting anything inferior or more dangerous than what one already had."

Cubism, Greenberg claims, is Apollinairian. Not exactly the 'Dyonisian revel' of postmodernism.

>He needs to be his own master, choose his own rules, and create artistic ideals, values, out of nothing.

This is literally what postmodernists did in the 60s. And this contrasts with your claim "All good artists try to be true to what they see". Which isn't even true anyway, unless you think the Sistine Chapel frescoes are a mechanical reproduction of observable reality. Or that Michelangelo was not a good artist.

You'd have to reconcile this idea with the fact that postmodernism is a kind of 'New Realism', reproducing signifiers in a gallery context (not to be confused with, but also including, Nouveau Realisme).

>>9205578
Never mind my first point, Apollinaire is the poet.

>>9201333
More like the end of history.

>>9201479
>knowing how to stay alive is non-essential
This is your brain on /lit/.

>>9205578
>This is literally what postmodernists did in the 60s. And this contrasts with your claim "All good artists try to be true to what they see". Which isn't even true anyway, unless you think the Sistine Chapel frescoes are a mechanical reproduction of observable reality. Or that Michelangelo was not a good artist.
That wasn't my point. Michelangelo reflected what he saw and believed in (Christianity and the Greeks) just as Dante did.

>>9205604
He didn't see muscle men (or women) and the patron's wishes, for the most part, took priority over those of the artist -- except in rare cases like that of Titian and Philip II.

None the less they didn't render in paint scenes true to nature like, for example, still lives. But you'd have a hard time arguing that still lives are a better genre than history painting because it best resembles what the eye sees.

>>9201648
who are you quoting ?

>>9205667
>>9205578
>>9205496
One thing that comes to mind to me in relation to this, is simply the idea of artistic medium. Is such not already as one anon said, 'the chains'?
Ultimately, the artistic medium is the human body/mind + Nature. Then there is painting, drawing, fashion, sculpture, electronic, graphic, etching, different type of painting, drawing, stitching, etc. etc. etc.

I dont even understand what you guys dont understand, or are grasping towards?

Artists desire to create ""'experience'""? Artists formulate material/energy that can be experienced. Thats the simplest reduction I can think of.

As history has shown, there are many ways to do this (there are museums and museums filled with amazing ancient art from milenia ago, pottery, jewelry, masks, paintings, clothing etc.); this anxiety yall seem to be speaking out is; what if the artists run out of new cool good great interesting ideas/experiences?

>>9205603
what the fuck does this even mean? How does science tell you how to stay alive?

File: 1482698067194.png (236KB, 454x319px) Image search: [Google]

236KB, 454x319px

>>9201333
>tfw I realised I'm a dead-end

>>9205725
im guessing dfw

That's why we have to return to Modernism to be able to get moving again
who /New Sincerity/ here

>>9207927
>again
>who /New Sincerity/ here
Who /never left, but also doesnt partition things by genre but just looks at the whole totality of all possible possibilities and at ones will and whimsy chooses what one thinks and feels are the best or just even most desirable for that moment, for that sentence, for that section, for that work/ here

>>9201333

>postmodernism is a dead end

you're 150 years too late, did you even read Dostoevsky?

>>9201403

>Very little wisdom is passed down anymore in our culture. People gorge themselves on knowledge and facts but can't integrate them into a strong perspective.

I don't know if it's your words, but that's a magnificently written sentence anon, I agree 100%

File: 0d8c8840f714c0db296c651676db0b18.jpg (37KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 500x500px

I don't think postmodernity goes away, stops, or finishes. I think it's just a cloud of chaos that opens itself up infinitely, like a Sargasso sea. My honest feeling is that ultimately it is a kind of phenomenon too fragile and mimetic to last, but it doesn't mean that it can't block out the sun in the meantime.

Like you were trying to leave Plato's cave but there was an army of clattering monkeys with cymbals standing there in the way making such a racket that you get completely lost and forget which way you are going and force you infinitely backwards into retreat. And eventually maybe it can get so bad that you come to wonder if that is simply all there is or if there ever really was an exit from the cave at all. Maybe - you can still remember the unsettling moment this thought first occurred to you - maybe Plato was just a meme and this is how life really is: monkeys with cymbals. Maybe there was no exit from the cave; maybe headquarters just received some bad information. Maybe it was just a slight miscommunication. You know how these things can go. Even the others in the cave can become convinced that this is the case. You can become convinced that an inescapable monkey labyrinth stands between you and the exit; but the instructions must exist somewhere. And surely they can be found. You just need a little more time, a little more data.

In the meantime therapy is an option. Maybe you become a monkey wrangler or cymbal repairman or an archivist. Maybe every once in a while you hear that somebody, some madman, escaped from the cave. That would be nice, you think, if it were true. But even if it were true - and what is truth, anyways? - it's too late for that now, because what, it is asked, would be up there but more monkeys anyways?

So you wait. You convince yourself that there were only ever monkeys, there only ever will be monkeys. You acquire a reputation for detecting nuances and charms, pointless trivialities, in the monkey labyrinth.

Later on, though this is much later, people not all that different from you, happening on the cave, will gather all of the monkeys and cymbals out of the cave and find your remains in it. They will clear the dust of that which you once were away from the vast and infinite collection of accumulated monkeys, an Ali Baba's treasury of worthlessness and wonder, and marvel in mingled astonishment and despair at the peculiar and nature of people who became stuck in the caves when escape was only three steps around the corner. The lesson, for anyone who hears it, has that ring of unmistakable truth associated with the Tao; it becomes a fable for children, who - happily - soon forget it.

>>9201444

true, but you are ignoring the amount of influence subconciously this site has on people. not every person browsing /pol/ is a detached metaposter that does it for pure comedy. most of them are 13-18 year old kids who would come to believe the nonsense they peddle - even if some of it might have some basis in reality.

>>9205603
>i'm hungry
>if i dont eat, i will die
>here is an apple
>eatsapple
>death by starvation is postponed

sure, i could apply the scientific method to this process of being hungry and needing something to nourish me. But neither the chemical make up of the apple, nor the method by which my body breaks down the fruit is essential to my survival.

>>9208769
>monkeys with cymbals
I hope you did what I see there

>>9208769
>Maybe there was no exit from the cave
Do men know more than monkeys? Do men see more, more clearly than monkeys? Do some men see more and more clearly than others?

>>9208769
10/10 analogy

>>9208769
>an inescapable monkey labyrinth stands
ha

>>9206728
I don't misunderstand anything nor am I anxious.

>>9207927
No matter how many times we revisit modernism (formalism) we'll still come to the same conclusions; it leads nowhere. But artists already do revisit modernism that isn't formalism, i.e. the process art of surrealism, but process-as-art is present in postmodernism anyway.

The time for ironic art has been over for a while.

>>9201356
>implying derrida is a postmodernist

new sincerity is pretty simple, just awareness of the deconstructive nature of post-modernism and despite the oblivion this brings, insisting on grabbing hold of tradition, though one can analyze it into meaninglessness, in new sincerity, we realize that it leads us nowhere, and separates us in a way that social conventions don't.

it's basically just taking the deconstructive viewpoint with a grain of salt and living conventionally in spite of it. i know love is just an abstract and outmoded portion of reproduction, but i still succumb to it, because i would suffer from nihilism and alienation if i didn't.

>>9208769
Postmodernism is literally 'wake up sheeple' not an infinite chaos.

>>9210186
If postmodern can said to bring oblivion it's only because it reveals the meaninglessness and manipulation of consumer society. But revealing this is one thing, making something of it is another.

Pro-top: the solution to postmodern decay is making good art

>>9201648
And all I can think to myself is: 'who the fuck owns an umbrella stand anymore?'

>>9210213
Is Alex Jones post-modern?

>>9210321
No, just an idiot usually

He believes in God which is nice though.

>>9210321
dude just aired a 34 stanza robert browning recitation on infowars..... i guess draw your own conclusions?

>>9205329
this

>>9210321
after post-truth comes post-sanity

>>9201356
nope
postmodernism is dead, but only because the irony associated with postmodern works has been consumed by the culture industry, rendering its ironic aspects basically useless

>>9210766

I think you're confusing postmodernist literature (which is associated with irony, deconstruction, and incoherence) with postmodernist philosophy. Postmodernist philosophy seems to be about stripping things of their innate values that we derive hierarchy and meaning. Postmodernist philosophy which is embedded in marxist thought is at bottom about deconstructing power structures and attempted to create a value system within which any thing has equivalent value to any other thing, namely none. Everything is a 'social construct', it doesn't recognize anything else at bottom. The category, the group is all that matters. There's no narrative, just chatter.

>>9201333
the problem isn't postmodernism the problem is thinking postmodernism was the endgame and not something transitory.
only dumb people take postmodernism to its logical endpoint, funnily enough this includes both postmodernists and people who hate postmodernists.

>>9207927
/New sincerity/ isn't a return to modernism, it's the dialectical synthesis of Modernism and Post Modernism

>>9201434
>facebook fuckstain knowing anything of 4chan

>>9201648
Jesus its all true. He's right.
The future scares the shit outta me. What are we gonna do? Where do we go from here?
I should read some DFW...