Is he right here?

>Let's not discuss
Ok.
He mentions some books you lot might like tho.

>reading dystopian fiction in an attempt to understand fascism
>Not reading the extensive academic literature already available on the subject
>Not reading the works of the actual fascists themselves and drawing your own conclusions
What the heck

>>9197879

It really annoys me how people are already acting like Trump is Hitler when he hasn't even done anything that bad yet.

It just further promotes the idea-centric culture of the modern day

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>>9197879
Dystopian fiction is the lowest form of philosophic discourse. Its like the equivalent of asking "what if a madman put a gun to your head and... [insert loaded question]"

>>9198515
He doesn't claim that. He says nationalism isn't the same as fascism.
>>9198512
I thought this was /lit/?
But yes a problem with John Gray is that he is too /lit/: he doesn't bother with non-fiction that much if at all - besides philosophy.

I've read the "Anatomy of Fascism" myself, and a book "Our political nature" that claims there are evolutionary origins of the far left and far right. It basically comes down to far left xenophilia and nurture and far right xenophobic and nature. It is a horseshoe theory

I've read the "righteous mind" and "predisposed" too but they don't deal with fascism.
>>9198533
I wouldn't even call it philosophic just "ideas", but in my opinion a lot of the classic philosophy is just that - ideas.

I think there's some value in that. As well, the military makes up future scenarios.

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>>9198533
nah. its the contemporary equivalent of the "state of nature" thought experiment

I was going to dismiss it but then I saw it was Grey, so maybe I'll give it a chance.
I'll report back!

>>9198512
You must understand that those people have a mindblock that prevents them from actually thinking about politics in a way that's at least semi-detached and performs some kind of actual analysis, instead the insides of their sculls are just filled with incessant autistic screeching and bizarre Harry Potter analogies.

>>9198798
>insides of their sculls are just filled with incessant autistic screeching and bizarre Harry Potter analogies
I don't think you know who John Gray is do you?

I think there is a lot of critique to be made of the man (namely his philosophy), but the description you made doesn't sound like him at all.

What's the verdict on John Gray lads

>>9197879

Do you really get more of the Brave New World vibe from Trump more than the left?

>>9198700
Anyone who thinks ideologies and politics can be reduced to biology better have a metric fuck ton of evidence to actually back their theory up

Humans are all one species so it is pretty much impossible that different people somehow have different evolutionary started that develop into political ideas.

>>9198876
The whole point of that book was to show how the difference between a utopia and a dystopia can be convoluted and depends on the view of the individual

>>9198876
BNW is about complacency and conformity. In a world of chaos, it's easier to go "oh well" and delve into entertainment/addiction etc. It touches on either side of the spectrum

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>let's do 60+ years of policys that will sure bring back nationalism and other kind of populists while we ignore all the problems!
>and then read some fictional novels when we try to understand why people are angry!

Maybe just dial down on all this immigration & multiculturalism a little and the other side will
not be so angry. It takes two to tango.

It's really boring to watch people using words with a very strict meaning as a simple insult in todays political commentary.

I doubt that people who use 'fascist' really knows what it really is, as a historical happening.

Call the guy stupid, a clown, autoritarian, dictator wannabe, whatever the hell you wanna use to insult him, but 'fascist' today means absolutely nothing outside its historical context.

>>9198876
>Do you really get more of the Brave New World vibe from Trump more than the left?
I did not claim such a thing. Brave New World sounds more like a emergent property from society than a left or right ideology.

>>9198877
You could read the books and judge for yourself. I think you take it way too far. They just claim that there are evolutionary origins for left and right (ingroup assimilation vs ingroup exclusion) but not that, say, anarchism, communism, social democracy, libertarianism, liberalism and so on and so forth have any evolutionary origins.

Many who look at sociology and psychology from a biological perspective think that nurture and nature both matter and instead of being hardwired they state we are firmwired.

One example is the taxi driver phenomenon. It boils down to brain plasticity.

I think you have all the right reasons to be skeptical of evolutionary psychology, some of it is bad.

But complicated answers for social phenomena should receive the same skepticism. People like Zizek will never convince me, and they do not even use evidence to back their theories up.

>>9197879
>populist upheavals
Not even worth it to read this nonsense. The reason the dystopian novels make more sense today than ever is because of the rabid left and how much they insist they are on the "right" side of history and because of that they think they can do whatever they want.

>>9198946
No! Multiculturalism is the savior of Europe!

>>9198819
The poster I was responding to wasn't talking about Gray.

I didn't know this would trigger people this much, actually pleasantly suprising to see.
Protip: skim the article better or actually read it instead of only reading the title and barely the text.

>>9198759
Nah the state of nature is more sophisticated because there's an actual anthropological base to work with and debate over.
You can literally create a Dystopia based around criticizing fucking anything.

>>9198876

Neither really

I think its actually fairly difficult to view the right and the left of American politics in terms of end goals
Its more just a matter of methodology and you don't see the results until everything gets wrung through the system at which point it becomes hard to say if there is any meaningful distinction
Its this way by design
I think its not too far fetched to say that political parties are nothing more than the placebo effect in action

>>9199000
I can agree with that.

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Is anyone else enjoying the spectacle of leftists squirming like a slug in salt? I don't even like Trump that much but I can't argue with the sheer entertainment value of the Trump presidency.

I think what really makes it interesting is that the various liberal or leftists groups thought they had the presidency in the bag, so you can compare the smug, self righteous, pre-november rhetoric with the frantic and terrified screeching noises they're making now.

Thinking Trump is a fascist is incorrect.

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>>9199186
I am a Marxist and I feel the same way as you

>>9199012
yeah american politics suck

no matter what some faggot wants to take your freedoms away, whether trying to take your guns or muh terrorists gotta see everything you do online goyim :^)


t. american

>>9199202
>being unironically a Marxist.

Y tho

>>9199195
See >>9198999
John Gray never claims that, he actually speaks against those people who do

>>9199251
I'm not, I'm post-ironically a Marxist

>>9199186
OP here, I did. Not anymore because I think climate change is a serious problem and Trump doesn't think so.
He better keeps his promise on foreign policies.

>post headline
>no one reads article rather just debates what they think about headline

>>9199279
This
>not ironically developing an idea so much as a joke that you start accepting it

>>9197879
Relating [very bad thing] with [thing I don't like] is the trademark of stupid people everywhere, I'm sick of liberals' childish rhetoric, these people need to be sterilized.

>>9197879
Aristotles politics described trump better than orwell

>>9199281
> think climate change is a serious problem and Trump doesn't think so.

Its not as if Hillary would have done much better there

>>9198819
>I think there is a lot of critique to be made of the man
like this retarded article and it's idiot author who can't understand the basic concepts of what he's trying to criticizing.

>>9199359
Yeah, this is absolutely true. Hillary's half-measures would have done fuck-all. The Arctic's already melting.

What we need is geoengineering and nuclear power, in that order.

>>9197879
>muh Trump is 1984

Is there any more pseud a belief than comparing your life to a dystopian meme? I would expect this from a high school freshman.

>>9198969
Jesus, who gives a fuck.

You evolutionary psychology simpletons don't belong on a literature board, your scientistic metaphors have no chance.

>The world is fascist now because these people I don't like won democratic elections

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>another /pol/ thread

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>>9198964
>>9199195

Fascism, as defined by Mussolini, the creator of fascism and the first fascist state, was corporate syndicalism or national syndicalism. He wrote a whole one page paper explaining exactly what fascism is: http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/mussolini-fascism.asp

Some definitions from (((wikipedia))):

Corporatism, also known as corporativism,[1] is the sociopolitical organization of a society by major interest groups, known as corporate groups, such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labour, military, patronage, or scientific affiliations, on the basis of their common interests.[2] It is theoretically based on the interpretation of a community as an organic body.[3] The term corporatism is based on the Latin root word "corpus" (plural – "corpora") meaning "body".[4]

Syndicalism is a proposed type of economic system, considered a replacement for capitalism. It suggests that workers, industries, and organisations be systematized into confederations or syndicates. It is "a system of economic organization in which industries are owned and managed by the workers".[1] Its theory and practice is the advocacy of multiple cooperative productive units composed of specialists and representatives of workers in each field to negotiate and manage the economy.

>>9199000
This.
I still think they're fun to read.

>>9200880

In the modern American system Hitler could've easily won an election
And I mean assuming he was born today not if he somehow came back to life and everybody already knew who he was

>>9200885
/pol/ actually got triggered and only read the title, kind of funny
>>9200879
Maybe I don't belong here, no. But I find evo-psych interesting if done well, unfortunately it hardly does that. And there are whole internet fringe groups who use it to justify their ideology.

I think that people who deny biology in the social sciences are just as bad.