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Translingual prosody thread 2017-02-27 05:59:31 Post No. 9165351
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Translingual prosody thread 2017-02-27 05:59:31 Post No. 9165351
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Why don't we have a thread comparing and discussing the prosodic features of our native language? I'm mostly thinking of prosodic features of the traditional poetry (including, not only meter, but also things like rhyme, alliteration, or pitch cadence as in Classical Chinese poetry), but information about the modernist innovations would be cool too. I'm not sure if this should go on /lit/ or /int/, but it seems like there are enough people with a language other than English as their mother tongue for this to work. Discussion of classical languages is also more than welcome.
For my part, as a student of Spanish, I know that the traditional prosody is more or less like that of French--i.e., neither stress nor syllable length (which is of course nonexistent anyways) are taken into account, and the only metrical restraints are syllable count and caesurae. I also know that by far the most common Spanish meter is el octavosílabo, just as the most "natural" meter in English is blank verse.
That said, I know that many modernists and proto-modernists imported classical meters (dactylic hexameter, iambic trimeter, etc.), using the stress accent of Spanish. Perhaps the most notable of these (correct me if you disagree) is Rubén Darío, whom I think I like, although I've only read a handful of poems of his since I have to look up a word every other line. That said, my question is, which of these "classical" meters has been the most successful in Spanish, and which is the most "natural"? Is there any particular stress pattern that you think is most natural in Spanish, as iambic is in English?
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Have you read Don Quijote? If so, how many different metres did Cervantes use for the poems?
Im genuinelly asking, i don't know much about poetry
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>>9165360
He wrote a lot in fixed forms, but most of his poems were lost, unfortunately. He was a awesome satiric, like most of his pairs of Siglo de Oro. What do you want know, exactly?
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>>9165360
Part I- Chapter II. ''Nunca fuera caballero...''
It's a ''romance'', a really popular form, used mostly in folk poetry. 8 syllabes each verse, pair verses have assonant rhyme.
Part I- Chapter IX. ''Ya sé, Olalla, que me adoras...''
A ''romance'' too.
Part I- Chapter XIV. ''Yace aquí un amador...''
Two ''redondillas'', which are four-verse stanzas with 9 or less syllabes each verse. The rhyme's pattern is ''abba''.
Part I- Chapter XXIII. ''O le falta al amor conocimiento...''
A sonnet
Part I- Chapter XXVII. ''¿Quién menoscaba mis bienes...?''
This is another folkish meter, called ''ovillejo''. The structure goes like this: several couplets in which the first verse has 8 syllabes and the second, only 4. Also, the poet can add a ''glosa'' as a ''note'' for the ovillejo.
Part I- Chapter XXXIII. ''Crece el dolor y crece la vergüenza...''
This one's called ''octava real''. These have 8 verses of 11 syllabes and their rhyme pattern is ABABABCC.
Part I- Chapter XXXIII. ''Es de vidrio la mujer...''
Three ''redondillas''.
Part I- Chapter XXXIII. ''Busco en la muerte la vida...''
Two ''quintillas''. As long as the poem has 5 verses and each verse has only 9 or less syllabes, it's a ''quintilla''.
Par I- Chapter XXXIV. ''En el silencio de la noche, cuando...'' and ''Ya sé que muero; y si no soy creído...''
Two sonnets.
Part I- Chapter XL. ''Almas dichosas que del mortal velo...'' and ''De entre esta tierra estéril, derribada...''
Two more sonnets.
Part I- Chapter XLIII. ''Marinero soy de amor...''
Another romance.
Part I- Chapter XLIII. ''Dulce esperanza mía...''
These are really interesting. ''Sextillas'' in which the the first four verses of each stanza follow the ''lira'' pattern.
Part I- Chapter LII. ''El calvatrueno que adornó a la Mancha...'' and ''Esta que veis de rostro amondongado'' and so on.
Four sonnets and four ''quintillas''.
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>>9165351
Part II- Chapter I. ''Y como del Catay recibió el cetro''
A couplet.
Part II- Chapter VI ''Por estas asperezas se camina...''
''Terza rima''.
Part II- Chapter IX ''Mala la hubistes, franceses...''
''Romance''.
Part II- Chapter XII. ''Dadme, señora, un término que siga...''
A sonnet.
Part II- XVIII. ''Si mi ''fue'' se tornase a ''es''...'' and ''El muro rompe la doncella hermosa...''
Another ''redondilla'' with a ''glosa'' and a sonnet.
Part II- Chapter XXXV. ''Yo soy Merlín, aquel que las historias...''
Blank verse.
Part II- Chapter XLIV. ''¡Oh tú, que estás en tu lecho...''
''Romance''.
Part II- Chapter XLVI. ''Suelen las fuerzas del amor...''
''Romance''.
I think I skipped some, but fuck it.
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>>9165351
I know that the ones considered most natural in portuguese are the 10 sylable line (decassílabo) and the 7 sylable line (hendecassílabo).
But I will start using the 12 sylable line verses in my work form now on (the dodecassílabo, or alexandrino). The purists and tradition-protectors dont like the 12 sylable line, yet to me the 10 sylable line dosent offer the same space to insert thought as the iambic pentameter line in English, so I will use the same form as the French.
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>>9167429
'Hendacassílabo' use 11 syllables, no? The alexandrine is heavily traditional in french poetry exactly because of this, it can fit a lot of thought in it. It suppose to be the same in portuguese, no? Since they're two similar languages.
Btw, are you that crazy Shakespeare fan who wrote a play in blank verse?
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>>9167878
>Btw, are you that crazy Shakespeare fan who wrote a play in blank verse?
Yes, that's me. I didnt know people around here remembered me.
I used the decassílabo (10 sylables), but for the next ones I will go with the alexandrin.
The French words tend many times to have the tonic accent on the last syllable of the word, so for French the deassyllabic is even more limited, since, as the accent goes to the last tonic syllable of the verse, in Portuguese we tend to have the accent only until the Penultimate or antepenultimate syllable, and what comes next does not count.
In Brazil and Portugal there is a criticism of the twelve-syllable verse (alexandrino or dodecassílabo, with alexandrino being the twelve-syllable verse with some stupid rules, which only purists of the past follow*) that says that it is not so sonorous, that is too much prose-like, that id dosent have as much rhythm as the deassyllabic-line, which I think is not that true. The 12-sylable verse is not as marked in rhythm as the 10-sylable line, but that dosent make it un-poetical.
In addition, the deassyllabic, besides being very short, does not lend itself well to the theater because it does not have a conversational flavour. With dodecassílabo you can be both ultra-poetic and conversational. It can make the verse sound like poetry or as a kind of high prose.
After much meditation I decided to choose the 12-syllable verse.
*The sixth syllable (hemistich) must be the last syllable of an oxytoton word or, if the word is a paroxytone, it must end in vowel and the first word of the next syllable should begin with an unstressed vowel to make the elision( the junction of the mid-verses in one verse).
One should avoid in the Alexandrian verse the occupation of the tonic syllable of the first hemistíquio of a word proparoxítona, or paroxítona with the termination in consonant.
(Like I said: stupid and good-for nothing rules. The only ones I follow are: the verse should have 12-poetic-syllables, with accemt either on the 6th and 12th or on the 4th, 8th and 12th sylables).
>>9167878
>'Hendacassílabo' use 11 syllables, no?
Yes, you are right, my bad. The other traditional potuguese verse, of 7 sylables, is called Heptassílabo, or Redondilha-Maior.
The hendecassílabo is the verse of 11 poetic sylables, a rare form of verse, yet extremelly sonorous. It contains the most intense and ear-perceptible . It's accents are on the 2nd, 5th, 8th and 11th sylables. One of it's names is "Marteo Agalopado", something like: "Galloping hammer".
>>9167878
>The alexandrine is heavily traditional in french poetry exactly because of this, it can fit a lot of thought in it.
Happy to see someone talking about such things. Where are you from? What do you study?
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>>9170215
Actually is probably one of the most beautiful languages alive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EflJ67AAZFc
However, I don’t know why in Portugal the language sounds so different from the one in Brazil. I have traveled to Portugal and was expecting something like the accent presented on the Brazilian songs that I love to listen to (after all both countries speak Portuguese), but I was wrong. To be clear, I don’t speak Portuguese, so I am not an adequate judge on the matter, yet we all have our tastes and impressions, so let me say what I have noticed.
People in Portugal sound harsher, more aggressive when speaking. The language there seems more consonantal, it doesn’t have the same open vowels as the Brazilian kind of Portuguese. It is not as sunny, as flowing a language as the Brazilian kind is.
So I kind of understand when people that only know portuguese from Portugal think that the language is ugly. But to all of those I invite them to listen to some samba and Bossa Nova: you are in for a great surprise.
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