What does /lit/ think of comics/graphic novels?

It's a great medium for readers who are not sufficiently mentally developed to consume and enjoy literature, e.g. children, intellectually disabled, American adults.

>>9160504

The only good one is Watchmen otherwise it's a terrible medium.

>>9160530
Is it impossible then to enjoy literature and graphic noivels alike? They both have their merits and both can be used to richly tell a story

Not literature just like video games aren't art.

>>9160530

So do you feel the same about movies or plays? Like books are just the only legit form of storytelling? Or do you think comics are especially bad as a format?

Or is it more that so much of the comic book format is devoted to dumb super hero shit and the like?

>>9160570
I don't think anyone with a brain would argue that videogames are art.

>>9160555
It's not a problem with the medium as much as the business model. Serialization is awful for pretty much any any form of art, books included. The Big 2's insistence on keeping everything in a "shared universe" to try to get people to buy more of their shit with crossovers and events only further cripples writers' artistic freedoms. Combine that with the fact that most characters are either legacy characters with a "history" stretching back over tens of writers and decades, kid versions of already existing superheroes, or XXXtra diverse OC donut steel pandering attempts and you pretty much have in industry that sets itself up to manufacture drivel. It' my suspicion that this kind of shit drives actual talented artists and writers to steer clear of the industry altogether or condemns them to write for nothing at literally-who tier publishers where their stuff never gets noticed or finished.

I agree that most are trash, but not because of the limitations of the medium. They're trash because of the way they're monetized.

>>9160561
you have to go back

>>9160561
>>9160578
Comics are just series of subtitled cartoon/film stills. They are motion pictures transferred on paper - an ungodly crossbreed, which sacrifices most artistic techniques available in cinematography and literature in order to become the most easily digestible form of storytelling, requiring little to no effort on consumer's part. This in turn constrains the medium so much, that almost the only suitable application of it is plot driven trash like superhero stories. Any outstanding work amid the sea of mediocrity is indeed succeeding despite being a comic, not because of it. Literature and film are like fine wine and great beer - each amazing in its own right. Comics is mixing them together and boiling out the alcohol. In short: avoid if you're neither a child nor an oligophrenic.

I'm not a snob, so I look at high and low culture. Watchmen was legit. Sandman too.

>>9160504
I think they're pretty worthless OP

Could easily be a medium to express art in a way that balances movement and stasis.
Unfortunately it has been infested by man-children that made it into complete garbage.

>>9160808
Obviously you've never read then watched anything by Alan Moore

The best contemporaries have to offer. Sad.

>>9160561
>>9160578
>Storytelling
Hey reddit

>>9161717
Obviously you haven't even bothered to read my post thoroughly.

>>9161717
Moore is trash, fuck off back2reddit

>>9160504
Literary graphic novels:
>Watchmen
>The Fountain
>Kabuki Metamorphosis
>Serious House

And that's about it, off the top of my head. When they're good they're incredible. Graphic novels can get between literature and film in a way that (very rarely) brings the best of both worlds into something totally different. Don't be pseuds.

>>9161769
>Literary

LOL no.

>>9161775
>I depend on other people to tell me whether I am smart or not
Pseud.

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>Pulitzer Prize
>MoMa exhibit.

Not literary.

>>9161769
>graphic novels
>literary
>everyone who disagrees is a pseud
>>>/r/eddit

>>9160504
a little too new wave for my taste

>>9160530
>goes out of his way to insult Americans
Dat inferiority complex

I used to be in love with them when I was tween; I even tried to make my own sometimes. Now, I wouldn't read a comic book even if my life depended on it.

>>9160582
I can't name a game which is art, but I believe there's potential in the videogame medium for art.

>>9161836
spicy rhetoric, but you're still a faggot, Gorgias.

>>9160609
That's basically the problem with American comics. Comics from elsewhere are less about the editor and more about the author. Sure there are problems (like in the mass production of manga), but at least it's not like some bunch of mediocre guys hired to milk on some shit 50+ year old franchise.

>>9160504
"From Hell" is /lit/.

>>9160561
t. american adult

>>9160578
the Birth Caul isn't that...

But I can't see that one being made into a film.
Nobody would watch it but it's a great comic.

No super hero shit, whatsoever.

>>9160609
Is this what drove Alan Moore to do the ABC (America's Best Comics)? I never got the story on that chapter...

>>9161678
The spinoffs from Alan Moore's Constantine were fairly good, as well. The TV show was crap though because "we can't have smoking or homosex on broadcast television shows here in the U.S.A."

At the time, it was probably the best show on network TV, though...

Oh well.

>>9161733
Not with the framing, though...
Or the colorization. But yeah, basically a glorified storyboard in my opinion. I'm with you on that.

>>9161806
This stuff is taught in college literature courses.

>>9162101
Not even Space Invaders?
Frogger?
Pac-Mac?

>>9162147
HA! If I remember, it felt like the appendix was bigger than the actual story part of the book. Every panel explained as to where it was sourced from, etc... It is lit, though. Movie was shit. No wonder that guy gets his name removed from the credits of all the movie adaptions of his books.

>>9160504
They are good when you are stuck home in bed recovering from major surgery all hopped up on powerful meds and want to read something but can't physically hold up a real book.

>>9162283
Dunno, what's your definition of art? It all revolves around that, doesn't it?

>>9161727

What's wrong with that term?

>>9162101

What about something like Zelda?

Lots of music that gamers cherish. Lots of little aesthetic delights like mysterious old temples. Also there is a humorous dialogue

You might not think it has artistic value but it seems to me that quite a bit of video games are trying to be artistic, at the very least

Good graphic novels are like a higher level of film. But most of it is superhero-tier pandering to video game culture.

This might sound weird but if you have local book stores or graphic novel/comic stores in your area, check them out and look for local works. I've read a few from authors in my country and they've been really good.

>>9162101
A lot of games are art, whether they are good art is another question.

Look up Kentucky Route Zero.

>>9162407

I remember growing up with my father playing Atari video games with his wine-making buddies with those basic games and gambling on them and it reminded me of Texas Hold-'Em poker games because they would bet money. That led to my mind going to card-art and tarot cards and the artwork involved in those with all the symbolism.

My post was kind of a joke -- but rooted somewhere.

i.e. detailed cave painting leading to symbols leading to alphabets leading to literature and writing in general...

"Standing on the shoulders of giants."

But yeah, you're right, it does revolve around my definition of art.

I like Batman

No mention of Will Eisner? He's a comic god.

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They're very fun to read and are not enjoyable escape from reality, but I don't really take any of them seriously on an intellectual level.

I do find it interesting to look at what the characters can represent psychologically, but I don't think any deep meaning exists because of anything the writers have consciously attempted to convey. At least, I feel that way for the comic books I've read.

>>9163956
Are an enjoyable escape*

>>9160504
Everyone who enjoys them is insufferable.

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What are some ones like Yotsuba& or Ghost World or Persepolis

I can only do slice of life or slice of history, I can't do any hero stuff, not even stuff like watchmen

Read more European shit, I grew up on Italian comics and it was great. One comic every casual likes is Dylan Dog, you can start with that.

>>9164102
whenever I boot a new game I pick hardest difficulty because I'm a Virginia so gibe me the hardest dickfulty rite

If graphic novel has any ounce of text it's garbage

>>9164028
Tamara Drew. Weapons of mass diplomacy.

>>9160504
Most of the posters in this thread are snobs, graphic novels are fun and life is too short to seriously discuss "literary merit", like, read whatever the fuck you want.

>>9164114
thankee

those both look quite alright

does someone have a chart of the introductionn to grapshic novels?

Any good comics set in late Roman, Biblical, or Medieval times? Or any based on the Bible, like R Crumb's Genesis?

>>9160504
Mostly junk, but they can be as great as any literature.

Thoughts on Cerebus?

Gantz is pure literary kino

>>9160609
>>9160555
I feel like we already had this thread...

>>9165398
Dave Sim's best

Indie comics

>>9160530
Are you or your parents east Asian by any chance?

Literature and live action film are for talentless hacks who can't draw. Prove me wrong.

Awww shit. Trolled again.

>>9162101
Journey, Shadow of the colossus and papers please are perfect examples.

>>9167398
You have to be more creative when you only use words, because there's no images to tell you what's going on. I do think comics are art.

>>9167398
J.R.R Tolkien drew illustrations for his books.

From hell is kinda neat

>>9161806
I read this and came to the conclusion that it won awards solely because it was about Jews. That said, the fact that it's a graphic novel isn't what makes it non-literary.

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>>9160582
>>9160570
I'm smarter than you and video games are art

>>9162101
The Beginner's Guide has more narrative depth than most literature and is brought about through every facet of the game.

Any comics based on geometry or Euclid?

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But what does /lit/ think about The Bus? Can't do these comics with words.

>>9167860
Pretty sure you could.

read what you want

>>9160504
>visual medium
>every series uses the same hideous art style
Comic books are the lowest form of art, even anime and video games have higher standards.

Any comics on the Greeks?

>>9168097
yeah probably

>>9168105
Thanks. Looking for recommendations.

>>9160570
I sure do love living in a world where everything is black and white.

>>9167790
Sure: https://archive.org/details/firstsixbooksofe00byrn