I think having children is immoral, you condemning someone to

No m8 you're the first to ever come up with the notion.

>>9123190
>what is antinatalism

>>9123190
kill yourself

rust cohle

NOT having children is egoistic and immoral

>>9123190
>condemning someone to death and a lifetime of suffering.
So you think nonexistence is better than having existed?

>>9123190
Bras Cubas

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>>9123190

>>9123190
now you know why gulags were a thing

>>9123257
why tho

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>>9123190

>immoral

>>9123190
The Conspiracy Against the Human Race

Better Never To Have Been by john something probably

>>9123190
Even if you chose the 'childfree lifestyle', the evangelical couple from Lubbock is going to pop out 5 kids, all stupid like them, while Mrs Ubwanga Buwundwongo from the darkest Congo already has 13 kids and counting, future jungle militia warlords and illegal aliens. It is your civic duty to improve the world's gene pool.

>>9123260

Not OP, but yes.

>>9123257

To whom is it egotistical to not have them? I'm assuming you're talking about
>m-m-mmmmuh BLOODLINES N FAMLY NAME

>>9123190
>>9123203
>what is Gnosticism

>>9123260
Non existance is our natural state. That's why we come to the world crying

Are you upset we aren't living in BNW?

Please read Romans 5:3-4

>>9123190
Schopenhauer's work is basically centered about that. If the World as Will and Representation is too long for you (and it is), you can check On the Suffering of the World, a short book written in aphorisms.

>>9123871
>>9123888
Then why are you two still living right now if nonexistence is so much better?
Why don't you just kill yourself right now?

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>>9123190

>>9123190
>I think not having children is immoral, you miss giving someone life and a lifetime of joy.

Is there a bigger pile of shit philosophy than antinatalism?

It's the unholy child of dualism and utilitarianism.

>>9123190
By that logic, not killing everyone you see to save them from a lifetime of suffering is immoral.

the trouble with being born from Cioran. altough in the title is everything.

>>9124056
>>9123981
legitimate questions. i would like a response.

>>9123190
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Mainländer

>>9123190
>you condemning someone to death and a lifetime of suffering.
That just sounds like you're saying that you'll be a shitty parent. If that's the case then please go ahead and abstain from reproducing

Why do people assume no-pleasure is an okay state of being.

>>9123652
>>9123981
>>9124013
>>9124038
>>9124056
>>9124122
this.

>>9123652
>future jungle militia warlords
Senpai I dunno about you but that sounds like strong genetics to me.

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>>9124175
>>9124127
>thinking antinatalists have any arguments other than "my life sucks therefore everyone's life sucks and will suck therefore no more babies"
big mistake

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>>9123652
>duty

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>>9124056
the real redpill

Where's your binkie?

>>9124195
What is a real argument against antinatalism though? If you are do not exist you can not suffer, thats a logical conclusion. Its very likely that a person will feel some kind of suffering while being alive. Even if someone enjoys living, he still has to die some day against his will. You would have to be of the opinion that pleasure outweighs suffering and I dont know if that is true for the majority of people. At worst you would deny your potential offspring only a chance of feeling the pleasures of being alive, if you get kids however they could easily live an unfulfilled life of suffering. Omnicidism would not work because killing a person/ animal would in most cases still make this being feel physical and mental stress in the few moments before death and make their social circles grief. This is of course arguing from the position that suffering should be prevented.

>>9123190
>Has anything been written about this?
oh. that makes it /lit/ related

>>9124267
>This is of course arguing from the position that suffering should be prevented.
And that's not a valid position, so the whole thing is unfounded.

Humans adjust their perception of suffering in order to make themselves more able to pursue certain goals. This is an ability that was selected for by natural pressures because it increases the genetic line's odds of survival.

>>9124267
>This is of course arguing from the position that suffering should be prevented.
Congratulations, you pointed out the biggest flaw in the mindset of antinatalists for yourself.

I don't get it, are there really people here who are happy to be alive? Who think that being born is a good thing? Most of the life is suffering, but people are afraid to admit it, so they wont seem like losers.

>>9123190
You're ignoring all the joy you're also enabling in the life of a person. But really, you have nothing to do with it either way. The idea that your offspring have anything to do with you is a trap of ego.

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I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

>>9123483
>literally all your ancestors all the way back to the primordial cells have replicated but i'm just gonna stop, no I feel this is enough, i don't want to *pfff* kids are yucky
>not egoistic

>>9124267
>What is a real argument against antinatalism though? If you are do not exist you can not suffer

You gotta remember that not everyone is an edgy emo teen.

I don't suffer.

>>9124403
I notice that beautiful and smart people with happy/successful life (proud) want and love their children.

>>9124403
I don't think i've ever suffered.

Only in life can joy be found and only in life can suffering be found. You can't really ask the nonexistent if they would like to pursue joy in spite of suffering now can you?

If they would rather live or die is not a judgement you can make in their name. Cause they don't exist and stuff.

Why not bring more people into the world?
Why do?
Some people do it for the joy of raising a kid. Some just broke a condom and can't get rid of the thing.

It doesn't matter that there is suffering, cause it is not all bad.

>>9124428
Where is that from? I swear I have seen that last sentence before.

Literally no one in this thread has given strong reasons against antinatalism. You guys all mocked OP, but you're still unable to come up woth something that could be taken as an answer (and no, "lol, antinatalists are FUCKING STUPID RIGHT???" is not a valid answer).
Imagine that you're trying to disprove Schipenhauer himself (who was an actual hardcore antinatalist), what would your thesis be? Would you just call him "retard" because he actually belive in this and wrote multiple solid essays on the subject?


>>9124056
That's a false equivalency, I can think that we should not give birth to new human beings while being a humanist at heart, who thinks that other humans should be treated decently.

If the human has already been born the best thing you can do is to try to mitigate his suffering thorough his life, wich is exactly why I was antinatalist in the first place. Non-existence is not equal to murdering, it's a completely different concept.

>>9124296
If you want your opinion to be heard try to svoid spouting pseudo-biology nonsense, since you're obviously ignorant on the matter. Try again.

Lots, and it's a totally false position.

If suffering is so immoral, go nuke the moon or something.
>>9124267
>logic is good

>>9123190
Im happy to be alive

Most people would choose existence over non-existence

>>9124438
This is actually wrong.

A shitload of our ancestors didn't have any children. We are here because at least one branch did. If you have siblings and they already have children there is already a good chance that your line will continue to live.

>>9124483
Antinatalism is teleological, and that alone proves that it's bogus.

>>9124502
See? You've got nothing, you're completely unable to explain and justify and of your views. That's almost equivalent to saying to Schopenhauer "ah, so you're a natalist? GTFO fucking teenageer" and nothing more, no justification or reason for your opinion.

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>>9123619
David Benatar

>immoral
Oh no

>>9124483
From our understanding, death and pre-birth are practically synonymous in that both are non-existence in any tangible sense.
Therefore, it would follow that the state of death isn't suffering, it's just a non-existence. The act of dying and suffering in existence therefore should, in some sense, have greater significance than the pleasures of existence and that existence itself isn't inherently pleasurable as it is equally spectacular. Although I do believe that the primal human aversion to death due to evolutionary reasons may bias my view, I'm still of the firm opinion that by actively denying existence you are prohibiting suffering and pleasure and I believe that pleasure has a greater inherent value than suffering due to it's abundance and ability to remedy suffering.
To elaborate further, obviously the vast majority of people would rather be alive than dead, I'm assuming yourself included, again the human predisposition against death would suggest some bias, but this shows that people, out of poverty and away from natural dangers enjoy life when taking a holisitic view of it. Poverty and socio-economic factors are the true detriments to life, not existence itself, by prohibiting existence you are denying the growth of human civilisation, such growth has been experienced even since the death of Schopenhauer that it isn't unrealistic to imagine a world where suffering is minimalised.
Since antinatalism is negative utilitarian concept, I argued from one of positive utilitarianism, also I'm assuming that non-existence is not in fact some form of higher existence, but we can never know the truth in that regard.

>>9124428
That's so beautiful, and I'm definitely on that path, homie. But humans coming together to recognize the mistake of their self-awareness would mean also that they come together in agreement on anything... which would be a state in which hope was possible to negotiate a way to subsist and transcend that which is the cause of our suffering in the first place. It seems fairly obvious that the only viable option is to adapt our understanding of life beyond the historical biological context, though. There is beauty in your expression, though, and I thank you for it.

>>9123241
>>9123306

Thomas Ligotti's "The Conspiracy against the Human Race" explores this issue. Well, at least states it as you put it. Cohle's character in True Detective was deliberately based on Ligotti's philosophy ( http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/02/02/writer-nic-pizzolatto-on-thomas-ligotti-and-the-weird-secrets-of-true-detective/ ).

>>9124184
he just be looking up the bible verses referenced in the other book

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>>9124586
I was loving that show until the very end, there was so much they could have done and hinted at that they never resolved or even mentioned again. They supposedly took inspiration from The king in yellow and so many things that were good, name dropped them a few times then never mentioned them again.

>>9124499
All your ancestors had children. Ancestors are the people whom you descend from. The word you're looking for is relations

>>9124470
True Detective. Rust Cohle.

>>9123190
Agree. It's crime to bear a child because there's no evidence to make sure a child is safe from a tragedy because if a child don't have two hands/legs because of a car accident, if a child wants to suicide? Feel jealous knowing guys' penis near your wife's vagina is in America when your penis is in Russia?

Ideas of jealousy isn't it?
It is psychopath when many Muslims agree to smile always because Muhammad always smile and at the same time many Muslims agree to kill the adulterer, the apostate and the gay based on Islam just because many Muslims think Islam is true. Islam is lack of empathy. Islam is also about fear.
It is crime to bear a child because there is no evidence to make sure a child is safe from a tragedy. How about when a child don't have two hands because of a car accident? How about when a child don't have two legs because of a car accident? How about when a child wants to suicide?
If there is God that means God is cheating because God is not all-powerful because God is weak because God is stupid because God cannot make an Apple iPhone 0 Plus that can be able to delete God and all.
Life is about move if based on reality. Life is about mystery if based on emotionality.
It is obvious when it is okay to burn an adulterer in hell but it is not okay to burn a holy book of Koran.
Freedom of speech for all because words can't kill because based on psychology people will feel uncomfortable when facing the same situation for a long time. Freedom of speech can generates creativity. To avoid freedom of speech can generates many people to be conservative. Freedom of expression can kill. Freedom of speech can't kill. Words is not the problem. The problem is people. Anyone can say words can make many people angry till killing each other. It's also about anger management. To stop freedom of speech can generates suicide the silent killer because many people like to fool around because based on psychology people will feel uncomfortable to facing the same situation for a long time. A bullet in head can kill. A word in head can't kill. Freedom of speech is not about physical. Freedom of speech is subjective. Freedom of expression is not just about freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is a kind of freedom of expression. Anarchy is not just about freedom of speech. Anarchy is also about freedom of expression. Anarchy can kill. Anarchist can kill. Words can't kill. God can't kill. People with God can kill. Words can't kill. People with words can kill. It is time to change. Always thinking about making change. Freedom of speech is a must because communication is important. It's not the loud sound of lighting that grows a tree but the water from rain that grows a tree which means no need to yell if softly spoken can be helpful enough to help each other to be creative in the name of freedom of speech. Speechless is meaningless. Creative is effective. Conservative is passive. Silent is ignorant. Creative should be talkative and innovative.

>>9124267
>mnicidism would not work because killing a person/ animal would in most cases still make this being feel physical and mental stress in the few moments before death and make their social circles grief.
Not as much as when you allow those people to continue to exist and suffer for decades and to reproduce which leads for suffering for centuries at least.

The suffering of a murder is way less than generations upon generations of birth and death and the torment in between.

>>9124195
Paradoxically, to have a real shot at omnicide we would have to embrace transhumanism and colonise the universe first otherwise we only solve the problem locally.

Ultimately the only real omnicide is to maximise entropy everywhere.

>>9124654
they have material for few good season, but they blow it up.

>>9123190

reproduction is a biological imperative

it predates even the conception of the concept of morality by a massive swath of time

the fact that you can ponder the morality of this thing at this very moment you in reality owe to it billions of times over

>>9124195
It's not new - it's called Buddhism.

I'm not suffering.

>>9123190
>immoral

lmao, who cares. Spooked fag

>>9124483
Yes, well my subjective view of life is that my kids will have it pretty damn good, in all probability, so I have no fears of raising them. I know it's cool for warm, full, safe middle-class kids with computers to talk about how life is all suffering, but it's generally bullshit.

>everyone before you got knocked up and raised a child so you have an obligation to do the same
Yeah try enforcing that "obligation" while I spend my disposable income on japanese sex bots

>>9123888
Woahhhh mannnnn...... that's like so...... woahhhhhhh

>>9124189
This has become a spook of its own. A necessary impulse, an imperative to remind others of the control structures lingering in their minds.
For what, if not for yet another? This time ironically it could be named 'freedom'.

You see, a man is three; the skeleton. The machine. The spook.

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>>9123190
>trying to come up with reasons to justify your kissless virginity

>>9129845
this.

>>9129834
Stop projecting your own neuroses onto other people.

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>>9129875
You should really be literate before coming on a literature board.

Kappa by Akutagawa Ryunosuke is pretty good

antinatalists should be put to death

Man was made for Joy & Woe
And when this we rightly know
Thro the World we safely go
Joy & Woe are woven fine
A Clothing for the soul divine

>>9123190
Holy shit OP, WHAT A GROUNDBREAKIBG IDER!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you have read fewer books than you have fingers and toes (and that you're an amputee).

>>9127062
>It's not new - it's called Buddhism.

Wrong.

>>9123190
>Used to think this when I was an edgy teen listening to the Smiths
>Now an adult who is going to have his second kid

Feels good man

WRITING HOME
by Thomas Ligotti

Dear Mom and Dad,
I always wanted to ask:
when you went through the motions
that brought me to this dubious world,
did you ever pause to think
that I might rather you didn’t?
Were you so possessed
you could not pause to consider
the full repercussions of making it?
Of course, it behooves me
to extend the benefit of the doubt,
to attribute to you some vague notion
that you acted in my interest, saving
me from my peregrinations in nonexistence,
a stranger to being, bumbling in darkness
for the light of life on this earth.
Such is a common rationalization,
and so I must allow its hold upon you.
Yet I must also posit that all you wanted
was to be in with the crowd, the ancient mob
that cheered you on with mad eyes, flared nostrils,
and spittle-dripping chins—those ones
whose approval you secretly sought.
All of these are plausible explanations
for what you did in a chamber cut off
from cool reflection in favor of the primal rite.
Whatever your reasons, the fact remains
of my emergence from that dilated aperture.
Whatever your excuses, I must confess
I’ve always lamented the day you met.
All that aside, I just wanted to take some time,
having reached the moment in which
I’ll make an end to what you began,
to say that I forgive you.

>>9130778
This is literally teenage "I never ASKED to be born" tier shit.

>>9130778
>behooves me
>such is

Christ, did Ligotti really write this cringeworthy emo tripe?

Yeah, dont pass your shitty genetics dude lmao

>>9131523
this.

>>9131275
>cringeworthy emo tripe
That's pretty much antinatalism.

I'm a living person, and it's really not too bad. Checkmate.

>>9123190
>tips fedora

>>9130778
What age is this kid when he wrote this?

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>>9123190
>Has anything been written about this?
Yes

just have kids already everyone

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>>9130058

We've already been down that road.

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If you haven't killed youself, that means you find life worth living, and therefore people yet to be born can also find it worth living. Anti-natalism is top tier retardation. Enjoy growing old and dying unfulfilled while I watch my children succeed at life and play with my grandchildren

>>9135767
>If you haven't killed youself, that means you find life worth living
Superficial as fuck.

>>9135813
Antinatalists are hypocrites. If they truly believed in their own ideology they would all be dead.

>>9124438
Oh no I'm making a different choice from what my ancestors did! How egotistic!

At some point every one of my ancestors probably took a shit then ate a meal without washing their hands first, but I think I'm going to keep washing my hands anyway, because I'm just that kind of egotistic dude.

Also muh circular reasoning, my ancestors all had children and that's why they're my ancestors. Don't be such a mug.

>>9124483
If it's better to never have been born it's better to die as quickly as possible surely? If not, why not? What is to be gained by existing if it is better to not exist?

>>9124130
Because they have no pleasure as is and being aware of a lack of pleasure is worse than never experiencing it.

>>9124403
Why don't you kill yourself if life is primarily suffering?

>>9124499
>A shitload of our ancestors didn't have any children.

Literally impossible.

>>9124428
We are not some biproduct, Rust, you maniac! We are the cutting edge, the nexus! We are the pinnacle of creation as yet to find any structure more complex than the information processing lump of awareness behind our eyes! You're not owed anything I'm sorry your daughter died but you're comparing reality to your imagination instead of NOTHING, and even the fact that you can conceive of nothing at all (which is not based on reality at all, but a figment of your imagination, by its very definition we could not imagine nothing because the only things we can think are somethings) is an incredible wonder, and pain is a sensation like any other that passes and passes and passes into that same midnight you can imagine just to comfort yourself! So keep on doing it Rust, you just go for it! You're the man!

>>9123190
Life is one of the most rare and complex things in the entire universe. Human life even more rare and complex. Denying something the chance at experiencing the universe in the manner that a human brain experiences it is immoral.

Suffering is far more spectacular in every imaginable way than non-existence. Emotional pain and turmoil are things that have taken billions of years of evolution to develop and without them there could be no pleasure. Every moment of your life is as complex as the formation of galaxies and you say it's immoral to give this experience to someone else?

You are a whining little child who has no grasp on the immense nature of your very being. Existence is wasted on you.

Hate to be the one pointing this out but you are a cuck.

Anti-natalism is the most 'projecting' of all '-isms'

>>9136149
Thank you based black science man

>>9136149
Your pretentious blindness is disgusting.

>>9136435
> calling somebody else pretentious

Top kek anon

>>9136472
;) :)) Xddd
Lel lul kek kok

>>9136117
You truly deserve the title of cuck

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>It's 2011+6 and normalfaggots still don't understand the difference between never existing and dying/being killed
Sad!

effectively what OP is doing in the long run by not having kids

>>9136981
meant for
>>9123225

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>>9123190
Have you considered you are looking at life through grey-tinted confirmation bias and self loathing?

>>9124428
>when in fact everybody's nobody
Fool just open a book and you can be part of the biggest things. Don't need to be somebody. Self cam up with money you bitch.

>>9136995
Go away Existentially depressed Kermit

Why is all life suffering? Does there exist a good argument for this?

>>9137115
Not "all" life is suffering. But life is hard to make worthwhile, and if you don't even try, all you're going to get is suffering.