Start with the Greeks Book Club: Iliad

File: ghettoschedule.jpg (116KB, 623x714px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 623x714px

Little schedule made by a kind anon.

File: hesiod.jpg (7KB, 199x300px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 199x300px

>https://mega.nz/#F!flYQGbzI!p1AFjtMuCLHQqocJqxV7rg

Here is a link to a trove of historical information on all sorts of Greek era literature or historical background.

Here's 45 gigs of military history. Go bananas
>https://mega.nz/#F!ZAoVjbQB!iGfDqfBDpgr0GC-NHg7KFQ

Thanks for organising the club <3

File: 1478313854175.jpg (26KB, 633x647px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 633x647px

fucking Agamemnon what a turbo autist

Book 1 down, shits good boys

>>8916517
OOooooo time to start!!

>>8916511

ill start today. abrupt start of this club, and way too many reading clubs on lit right now. i like it.

do share some supplementary material, im interested.

I've already started reading the Iliad before this, I am currently on book 10. I'll make sure to drop by and comment though.

The supplemental reading I was going to finish is a little extensive though. I really want to start with the greeks so im going all in.

>The Cambridge Companion to Homer
>Ancient Greece: A Political, Social, and Cultural History
>Simone Weil's The Iliad or the Poem of Force: A Critical Edition
>War and the Iliad
>The Trojan War: A new History

>>8916843
Are you really planning on going through all those? Surely just one book of supplementary reading would be enough?

Anyway, I'm in the same position as you actually. Just finished book 10 about an hour ago.

Fucc too many reading groups to keep up with.

File: Start_with_the_greeks.jpg (1MB, 3672x3024px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 3672x3024px

>>8916843
just read Mythology by edith hamilton and trojan war: a new history. the new start with the greeks reading list floating around has far too high of a supplemental to actual greek reading ratio.

>pic related is the best list

>>8916853
Yes, I am for personal and specific reasons

>>8916890
Have already read Mythology, that should be read before Homer OR could be read alongside Homer. Anytime a god is mentioned it can be crossreferenced with the story about the god and its relevance. The list I gave was referring to what to read immediately after Iliad and before Odyssey. The Ancient Greece Book can be read at a slower pace because it covers Stone age -> Diadochi.

Speaking of supplementary sources, there is this very exhaustive encyclopedia on Greek mythology:
http://www.theoi.com/

For example here is the page on the Muses:
http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Mousai.html

File: agamemnon_laugh.webm (840KB, 1280x528px) Image search: [Google]

840KB, 1280x528px

>>8916603
Problem, Achilles?

How do you pronunce Agememnon, anyway? And also, do y'all say normally say "Aias" or "Ajax"?

>>8917019
Ag-uh-mem-non
Ey-jax

>>8917014
We're skipping those because that would take far too long. The discussion is aimed at the main canon works, leaving supplements to be optional to those who care enough

>>8917019
Agamémnon, with the stress on the é.

>>8917030
>thinking Mythology is supplemental to understanding the Ancient Greek corpus

A perhaps worthwhile supplementary reading, the classicist Seth Benardete's dissertation on the Iliad, "The Homeric Hero: Achilles and Hector", which contains a lot of provocative reflections on the epithets and the structure of the Iliad.

http://library.newschool.edu/files/findingaids/benardete/SB_03_09_Homeric_Hero_dissertation.pdf

>>8917019
Aias is the Greek name and Ajax I think the Latinate version? Certain translators favor Aias over Ajax, but as long as you know that the names are interchangeable it should be fine.

>>8917036
It is.

>>8916556
I appreciate this, thank you

>>8917014
No one cares dude.

enough with all these fucking book clubs and schedules

>>8917104
This is the whole point of /lit/, reading.

>>8917113
and you need a group of internet friends to hold your hand in order to do it?

>>8917104
>wah stop discussing actual literature you're taking up space for my e-celebs and cool stax threads!1!

Fuck off.

Is Odysseus going to side with Aga or Achilles?

>>8917137
Don't think this is the beginning of some kind of civil war between two leaders of the Achaeans, there is only one and it's Agamemnon.

That said, Odysseus will be among those that try to bring Achilles back into the fighting later on.

What translation are y'all using?

I'm using Lattimore

>>8917162
An Italian translation

File: pence.jpg (58KB, 327x318px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 327x318px

>>8916556
>45 gigs of military history

thank you based hesiod bust

What will we read after this? Are we going to work our way through the whole Greeks chart, meaning reading the Odyssey next?

>>8917171
Odyssey is the next, yes

>>8917171
Odyssey, then Hesiods Theogony and Works and Days. Of the group survives that long well move to the Theban plays and such

>>8917162
imo, Lattimore is my personal favorite. It may be a bit harder to read than Fagles (he uses alot of modern words that feel awkward for a 2700 poem), but he leaves every single detail in.

>start to read book
>remember I'm retarded
>can't follow anything
>stop half way through the first page to jack off

this is gonna be a long day

>>8917198
kek sounds like your attention span is fried, I used to be like that. Might wanna lay off the video games/tv/hentai kiddo, otherwise you'll never read anything.

>>8917337
who are you calling kiddo, bub?

File: kek.jpg (29KB, 350x250px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 350x250px

fuck, seriously thinking about going with this...first translation I read of Iliad was 100% hot garbage and now I have the considered best translation on a PDF. Currently reading Ulysses, usually 1 chapter (40~50 pages) and KJV Bible, usually 5~20 pages a day. I think it would be doable to add 40~ pages of Iliad, especially since I am on vacation

guess I will try today

>>8917441
Curious to know... which translation is 'hot garbage', and which are you using now?

>>8917502
both are in portuguese (brazilian portuguese), my first language. the one considered 'best' is also the first translation of iliad and the odissey to portuguese (1874) and one of the very few translated directly from greek to portuguese, and the guy, Manuel Odorico Mendes, also translated the eneid

>>8917059

It really, really isn't. This isn't like "oh reading the Bible before X helps you understand it"; it's not supplemental, it's vital.

>>8917644
On what grounds is it vital lol

>>8917675
The poems are meat to be consumed by an audience who has a full understanding of Greek mythology. We as modern people lack such an understanding, and so reading Mythology is vital to really comprehending the meaning of the poem.

>>8917682
Where are some places that, without a full understanding of Greek mythology, you can't understand either poem?

>>8917769
i think 'understading' is way too relative and a bit vague. yes, you can understand the 'plot' of the iliad without knowing anything about mythology, but you won't understand the relations between gods and man and the reasons they are doing what they are doing.

>>8917781
>but you won't understand the relations between gods and man and the reasons they are doing what they are doing.

Can you give an example of where this is likely to happen?

>>8917785
Beginning of the Odyssey, who are Circe and Calypso? The Ancient Greeks would have known them well, and heard many tales of them. But we do not know them well. That's where Edith Hamilton's Mythology comes in. It covers both of them and countless others.

>>8917932
You want to use sources outside of Homer to learn about a pair of characters that are treated extensively in that very poem?

Wow Achilles is a fuckin nigger. The original primadonna. I'm on book 12 rn and I have to say that the fight scenes are a lot of fun. War is romanticized but Homer doesn't forget to illustrate the gore and casualties ever present in it.

The only annoying thing so far are Nestor's tales of his exploits.

Why did Homer decide to put in a bunch of references to people (I assume he made up) that have no bearing on the story?

>>8917958
Nestor's tales aren't made up. He references things such as Jason and the Argonauts, which were well known to the Greeks at the time.

And besides, Nestor is a top tier character anyway

>>8917958
>Why did Homer decide to put in a bunch of references to people (I assume he made up) that have no bearing on the story?

Are you referring to the lineages that characters declare at all sorts of different times?

Agamemnon is such a shit.
If I lived in a world where gods would just fuck your shit up because they didn't like you I think I'd be on my best behavior.

Why is Agamemnon so defiant towards the gods?
Is it because he has a master plan or only because he is a retarded fuck?

>>8917958
>Wow Achilles is a fuckin nigger. The original primadonna.
It's not easy to sell the idea of what an insult it is to Achilles ' honor being robbed like that to a contemporary audience. Honor is a big deal there.

>War is romanticized but Homer doesn't forget to illustrate the gore and casualties ever present in it.
But the gore and casualties are part of the romanticization. There is a pecularly Greek aesthetic of dying a beautiful death, which is why despite the years of tough fighting, you will read of so little wounded, and no mutilations or details of scars, even on experienced soldiers.

The Greeks don't have an aesthetic of wounded warrior manliness, made of missing eyes covered with eypatches, large scars, torn ears, etc. That's probably more to the taste of the Romans (source are the notes in my Italian edition of the Iliad if that wasn't clear) and contemporary folks.

The Greeks would rather have you be a handsome teenager boy, looking as beautiful like a statue that falls to ground, and to pieces, in a single instant.

Now, the relationship of fragility and beauty for poetic purposes is far from exclusively Greek, sure.

>Why did Homer decide to put in a bunch of references to people (I assume he made up) that have no bearing on the story?
Try to think about who would listen to Homer's tales. Namely, people from all over Greece. What you're reading is a "national" epic for a collection of city states. No wonder he features people from all over Greece in the book.

That's why we got two full books in the first place, and the more "local" poets came to us in tiny fragments, literal tatters.

And I wouldn't assume it's all stories the historical Homer made up by himself, rather he collected and put into hexameters.

>>8918012
>>8918024
That's his hubris.

Perhaps it's easier to fall into temptation and do something that offends the gods, when you're indeed a larger than life character, as the chief of the largest coalition of free men ever.

>>8918024
Often, gods liked pride but I agree he's hubristic

reminder that Helen was in Egypt while the war was taking place

Literally dumbest war ever. Trojans didn't hand her over because she wasn't there.

All the characters are one-dimensional. No self-overhearing, no change. Are they even human?

4/10

>>8917104
Fuck off, retard. If you don't like it, scroll past the thread like a big boy.

Fucking idiot.

>>8918074
>Literally dumbest war ever.
It's like somebody didn't want to admit this Trojan War business was a piracy operation gone tragicomically wrong.

>Helen was in Egypt
Euripides pls

>>8918080
>Are they even human?

>being a mortal
>ever
>>>/hades/

>>8918012
Some mortals can also fuck shit up for gods however. Keep reading, friend.

File: greeks.jpg (217KB, 1998x1121px) Image search: [Google]

217KB, 1998x1121px

>>8918110
>was a piracy operation gone tragicomically wrong.

wow
bad luck for pirates
such tragic lol
wow

the modern day equivalent of the Iliad are somalis trying to hijack a US trade ship and getting owned

>>8916556
jesus christ this is awesome

Something to think about: are the gods or the men in greater part steering the direction of the story.

not OP, just curious. Pls answer.
http://www.strawpoll.me/12017651

>>8916855
I'm with you, anon.
Already reading Count of Monte Cristo and War and Peace, i cant be joining another one.
But i think this is a great initiative. Good luck, anons.

>>8918896
>>8918896
Its no question that the actions and dispositions of Apollo, Hera, Zeus, etc directed the tides of war thus far.
However, I want to believe that due the fact that most divine interference which occurred was a result of man beseeching the Gods, or retaliation of the Gods against the actions of man, it was man directing their own fate.

This idea on the other hand can also be troublesome considering that in Greek mythos "fate" is observed as a divine force all its own which overpowers the will of even the Gods, ultimately leaving the direction history in the hands of neither God nor man.

So if Zeus is so powerful, why does he put up with Hera's bullshit so often?

you'd think he would just smite her and find a new queen.

>>8917781
Doesn't that assume:

1) Total homogeneity in the myths? Such that is contradicted by lines among the poets about how other poets speak differently about such and such figure, but how the poet writing/reciting is speaking the truth in comparison?

2) That Homer has nothing to contribute to the myths? And that both Homeric epics aren't primary sources for myths or for elements of myths?

There are some surprisingly funny bits in the Iliad.
In book 2 we have Odysseus smacking down a shitlord with a royal scepter.

>>8919136
something like this would probably work better at the beginning of a thread.
Oh well.

>>8919212
Zeus is a cuck. He's always like "Oh I'll smite you if you disobey" but he ever really does

>>8919361
>but he ever really does
Tell that to Prometheus.

>>8919375
I meant he says that to Hera

File: greek pepe.png (103KB, 624x434px) Image search: [Google]

103KB, 624x434px

>>8919136
>http://www.strawpoll.me/12017651
If you're not going to post at the beginning of the thread at least put an image in your post so it catches people's attentions

>>8918040
Quality post, thanks for contributing Anon

>>8919319
also Achilles crying to his mommy after he gets cucked

>>8917608
>Eneid

>Book 2
>People star leaving
>Odysseus starts rallying the soldiers
>I'm getting excited
>Describes thousands of soldiers
>Holy shit this is going to be epic
>Suddenly starts talking about random generals i don't care about
>Put the book down
Fuck me

I haven't read Homer in a 3-4 years but I'll join in once you guys get to Hesiod.

How are you going to handle Plato? Please for the love of God don't just read The Republic.

I posted this recently which I feel narcissistic reposting ("I am so great" - me) but I feel like it might help if anyone is interested in interpreting obtuse-ass Dark Age Greek behaviour, re: Achilles:
>Actually it's more like he is caught between two equally strong duties, duties that for him are so strong and "objective" that it's like he's having to choose between killing his mother or killing his father, and he can't make either choice.

>Achilles also lives in an eternal present, where there is no "progression" through time or past-future line of events, but a static "now" that draws upon a living legendary past. That's why his dilemma, to choose between an anonymous life in the now and an eternal "life" via glory, is so strong - because to the Greeks both of these were "life," and they were supposed to be intertwined (your natural life is supposed to be establishing your glory and so your eternal life), but for Achilles they have been split, in a way that's basically incomprehensible for him.

Different interpretations obviously abound but this is the KIND of thing you want to be open to when reading something as culturally distant as Homer. Basically, "what if they were really, really weird and their worldview was really different from ours?" WHY did the author(s) choose to depict this specific dilemma or crisis in a story? What makes it speak to that culture and grab their attention?

Other things to think about while reading Homer:

- http://department.monm.edu/classics/Courses/CLAS210/CourseDocuments/Epic/HOMER.ImportantGreekTerms.htm <-- especially pay attention to kleos, time, which are absolutely central to the story, and to moira. The Greeks were obsessed with fate, and their "encounter" with it is part of their making sense of some fundamental questions: Why does life suck balls for mortals? What is the "meaning" of this ball-sucking, why do we exist to suffer, die, and be forgotten, if the Gods exist to live perfect, immortal lives? Questions like these will become very enlightening when you guys get to reading Herodotus and Aristotle, for example. You can watch how Greek culture evolved. But it can also shine light on readings of similar things far afield, like the Book of Job.

- The poem is actually a semi-memorised, semi-improvisational bardic recitation. It has no original author that we know of. The bard would improvise, extend, or adapt passages based on his audience, to put on a good show. This audience varied from a smokily-lit room full of illiterate Dark Age nobles, all the way down to Plato. Try to imagine that rather than seeing a dusty book.

- Googling pictures of historical/artistic license depictions of Troy makes battle scenes more fun.

>>8919448
Stay with it anon. the next few books are hype as fuck.
>>8919421
Maybe someone will post a poll at the beginning of the next thread. I doubt I'll be here when it starts.

>>8916890
My personal list:
"Mythology" by Edith Hamilton
"A Brief History of Ancient Greece"
The Iliad by Homer
The Odyssey by Homer
Theogeny, Works and Days by Hesiod
The Oresteia (Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers. Eumenides) by Aeschylus
The Theban Plays (Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone) by Sophocles
Medea by Euripides
The Frogs, Lysistrata, The Clouds by Aristophanes
Euthyphro, Apology, Crito. Phaedo, Meno, Republic by Plato
Metaphysics, Nicomachean Ethics, Eudemain Ethics, Politics by Aristotle

Everything else is good, but not necessary - I recommend returning to later

>>8919634
Histories and Persian War are essential

>>8919705
Histories and Persian War are neither good examples of history (as covered by the "Bfrief History) or literature (Like Homer, Hesiod, etc)

>>8918896
Homer's (and not just Homer) tales show that even in a world where Necessity (Ananke) and the three Moirai rule over everything, even the allegedly all-powerful Zeus, men can indeed make the difference, with their actions and choices.

Because the separation between man and god (particularly in mythic times where people even lift massive rocks, etc.) is not as great as with monotheism: not only gods can become men and live among them, but men can become gods and live among them, too.

Look at what started the war: a mortal choosing between three goddesses. All three used their powers to affect the contest: Hera would make Alexander Paris king of Europe and Asia, Athena offered wisdom and skill in war, Aphrodite the most beautiful woman to ever live.

The gods have their agendas and excercise their superhuman powers to their advantage, yes, but it's the mortal's responses that matter.

>>8919212
>So if Zeus is so powerful, why does he put up with Hera's bullshit so often?
They're husband and wife, brother and sister.

>you'd think he would just smite her and find a new queen.
...and now you know why Zeus cheats on her oh so much.

Has anyone got an suggestions for non-fiction/ textbooks to learn more about the Trojan War? I'd like to know more documented facts (I know there aren't that many) about the time when the Iliad is set.

>>8919855
>The Trojan War: A New History
>The Trojan War: A Very Short Introduction

>>8919873
Thank you.

>>8919457
It should also be mentioned that Achilles' life is destined to be brief.

File: IMG_1930.jpg (653KB, 1192x1748px) Image search: [Google]

653KB, 1192x1748px

I made another OP image for tomorrow, assuming there will be another thread. Use it if you want.

>>8920067
Shut the fuck up

I can highly recommend downloading the Teaching Company's course on the Iliad and Odyssey if you really want to understand the Iliad and the Odyssey. Listening to the course my appreciation for the Iliad increased tenfold, the Iliad is a very complicated book which is hard to understand if you're not familiar with Greek terms such as Kleos and Time

I can highly recommend downloading a pdf of Edith Hamilton's 'Mythology' if you really want to understand the Illiad and the Odyssey. Reading the text, my appreciation for the Illiad increased tenfold - the Illiad is a very complicated book which is hard to understand if you're not familiar with, you know, the basic building blocks of all Greek thought, without which the text is as good as incomprehensible beyond the most meaningless superficial 'understandings'.

>>8916890
You know, I can understand the frustration with this, but /lit/ doesn't emphasize supplemental material enough in charts. There's alot in philosophy to be missed when you just read the major texts without the college classroom and outside sources. I took alot of political philosophy classes in college and it illuminated alot of arguments in philosophy that are not entirely overtly discussed in the works.

That said, Homer & alot of literature can be tackled by paying close attention and reading frequently.

I also want to point out that I think the old /lit/ is back. Patrician reading groups, daveposting at an all-time low, /pol/ posters disappearing en masse.

>>8920200
Please learn that it's 'a lot' and not 'alot' if you're going to use it so much.

t. autism

File: image.jpg (86KB, 640x400px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 640x400px

OP here. This's going pretty well, which is good. We're going to keep books 3 and 4 in this thread so we're not constantly on the move and we can source more info. It doesn't seem so cramped in the thread yet so we can just carry out day 2 here. I will make a new thread upon Wednesday morning for everyone

That said, 3 and 4 are pretty exciting and interesting. If you have time, check out some of the links I posted if you want to learn some history.

Also, it may be good to keep track of characters names at this point, too. If you want me to list them in the thread let me know. Thanks picture anon for your work, and to all the anons contributing sources.

>>8920235

OP, you really, really should have organised Mythology first. It's alright so far you're in the early books, but as it progresses and gets more complicated, people are going to get lost and lose interest because it will fail to make a landing without that background.

Look, you're flat out admitting supplemental material was always vital - "keep track of characters names at this point, too".

You're doing pretty good, but starting with the Illiad was a grave mistake. A grave, grave mistake.

File: IMG_1930.jpg (649KB, 1192x1748px) Image search: [Google]

649KB, 1192x1748px

>>8920235
Since there won't be a new thread tomorrow here's >>8920059 without specifics for future use, if you want to use it. It took me 5 whole minutes.
>>8920250
Well memed

>>8920265

I'm not memeing, and to be honest it bothers me you'd dismiss my comment like that.

I'm offering an opinion on this project you've started. I've been participating in your threads. I'm glad for their relative success. Is the fact I'm not blindly agreeing with every decision you've made regarding their direction enough to reduce me far enough that you'd dismiss my comments entirely?

What do you want out of these threads? I just don't see the sense in completely dismissing someone who slightly disagrees with you. I wish you the best of luck, but if your attitude is to be so utterly dismissive of anyone with a slightly different opinion than you, I'm doubtful they'll last long.

File: 1455986154099.jpg (64KB, 362x520px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 362x520px

Not OP, I'm sorry, the flowchart is good if you're going to go it alone but there is so much supplemental material on the internet, and there is no reason for a discussion group or group reading of Edith Hamilton's Mythology, which is good but at best a highschool freshman-level quick overview of gods and mythological wars, etc. It has importance to the Iliad, but the Iliad is the best place to start with a group effort. If you aren't familiar with Greek mythology, spend 2 hours looking up names and reading the articles on the myths.

Also, this board requires 18+ and is generally an intelligent board, especially these threads. Do you guys really know so little about Greek mythology as to be lost in the Iliad? It really isn't that hard to understand or contextualize.

>>8920298

>Not OP

right, yet you just happen to defend him...and the thread didn't bump when you posted

funny that.

>>8920298

OP should have made a post/explanation to that effect then, rather than just dismiss or mock those who agree with the widely-agreed-upon flowchart.

I disagree with your arguments, but you make them well, and I think everyone would have been satisfied if OP made similar ones, rather than just dismissing everyone who doesn't 100% agree with his each and every opinion.

The best compromise would have been giving everyone a few days/week to read Mythology and/or A New History, then starting with the Illiad. But OP bulled these threads pretty quickly, with little fanfare and organisation. Remember how he stridently resisted everyone who attempted to form a schedule, IRC group, Slack group...basically anything that would lead to greater organisation and participation, but less control from the OP himself?

I'm sorry, I think these reading groups are a fantastic idea, but OP is clearly not the right person to be leading or organising them.

>>8920306
Even if I was the OP, which I'm not, my point still stands. An Edith Hamilton reading group is fucking retarded, the Iliad contains cultural myths that at 18 you should be at least familiar with to not totally be at a loss in the work or with the characters, and anything that does go over your head can be easily researched.

Funny how you cling onto the first two words of my post to make an argument while trying to simultaneously argue how low your reading comprehension is for a poem that's read in highschools all over the world. It's like it makes perfect sense.

>>8920281
I'm not even OP. I was even replying to OP in that post.
Reading Mythology is a great idea if you want to know more. Not everyone wants to. It's not mandatory.
I'm getting memed right now.
If anyone is actually worried about getting lost, don't be.

>>8920317
>I'm getting memed right now.

You're just being rude for no reason now. Clearly I am being earnest with you. Is it that incomprehensible for the two of us to politely disagree? I'm not trying to invalidate your opinions, like you are mine. I'm offering my point of view. You'd think a well-read person like yourself would have no issue with someone very politely and moderately disagreeing with them, but evidently that isn't the case.

>>8920315
>An Edith Hamilton reading group is fucking retarded

I'm not who you're replying to (I'm >>8920319
), but that's my "point" you're referring to - except it's literally not what I was saying. Reread my post:

>>8920313
>The best compromise would have been giving everyone a few days/week to read Mythology and/or A New History, then starting with the Illiad.

I've disagreed with the idea of reading the Illiad without reading Mythology. I have not suggested the necessity to do a reading group for Mythology.

>>8920313
I'm >>8920298 >>8920315 btw, I wasn't familiar with when he started the group and I do agree with you on that, as usually there is around a week to 5 days discussion before IJ or the Count of Monte Cristo reading groups started. There is definitely more to contextualize with the Iliad. I think that's a good compromise & idea, to put an initial post with pre-reading material to be knocked out in a week for this specific text.

>>8920328

Too late now in any case, and it isn't an enormous issue, I'm just a tad worried about the direction of these reading groups with how the OP is running them. In any case, I think we're on the same page really. Here's hoping the threads go well.

Stop falling for that bait already.

>>8920335

the only bait here is a reading group based on 'starting with the greeks' thats not fucking starting at the start

>>8920340
no

>>8920350
no u

>>8920340
Read it alongside if you want to read it, there's been loads of supplementary material around.

>>8920282
>starting the the Greeks but not starting with not the Greeks written 3000 years latter by an American wtf you idiots

Shut the fuck up you stupid autist. Put a bullet in your head my man.

>>8918896
It's always men, in both epics. The gods wait until men act and then react to that. The very start of the Iliad, for example: men refuse to return the girl to the priest, a God reacts with a plague. Man about to kill other man, God intervenes. And so on.

>>8920040
No it's not. He chose to make it brief.

>>8920250
Holy fuck, give it a rest. You're fucking retarded if you think it's necessary to read Mythology first. What's in Homer is what is in Homer, outside sources only give you the wrong idea of what he's going for. You don't want to be like the retard above who, joking or not, said that the real Helen was in Egypt because he read one of Euripides' plays, nor do you want to think that Clytemnestra murdered Agamemnon instead of Aegisthus doing it just because you've read Aeschylus. You have to take Homer on his own terms.

>>8920282
Please learn how to fucking spell Iliad before going full retard.

>>8920250
Homer is a primary source for Hamilton's Mythology, you fucking autist.

File: Luís_de_Camões_por_François_Gérard.jpg (132KB, 309x419px) Image search: [Google]

132KB, 309x419px

>>8920763
I'm new here and I'm honestly afraid to buy the "Mythology" book.

Mythology apart, can Is it easy to follow the Iliad poetry?
I've read epic poetry written in my native language, and even those are hard to follow.

>>8920981
No, start with the Americans before the Greeks.

It is nearly impossible and virtually unintelligible without Hamilton's Mythology to understand, discern, or recognize anything that is going on in Homer or Virgil.

>>8920250
Ya you never even read the Iliad you fucking faggot.

Reminder that a large chuck of Mythology is devoted to a retelling of the Iliad and the Oddessy, and is completely unnecessary for this project

>>8920981
I wouldn't worry to much. The Iliad is fairly easy to follow and if you have trouble you can use sparknotes.

>>8921018
Reminder that said retelling helps make sense of them and so is vital to this project.

Why do you think the book is on both Start with the Greeks infographics? Because it's unnecessary?

Can we move to an irc to get away from these shitposters.

>>8921038
It's the same retard replying to himself

File: 1483228921000.gif (359KB, 640x636px) Image search: [Google]

359KB, 640x636px

>>8921046
>he actually believes this

>>8921018
The only Mythology you really should read ahead of time are:

>The birth of the titans, Kronos, Zeus, Children of Zeus.
That will give you a good idea of the hierarchy of Olympos and how Zeus came into power.
>The first Nine years of the Trojan War
self explanitory

>OPTIONAL:
>Trojan Mythology, Helen and her suitors, Priam and his children
That will give you some background into the Trojans
>Peleus and Thetis, Achilles before the war
Will give some background on Achilles


And you can read all of this in Apollodorus' Library, all of that together is only a few pages of summaries.

>>8921018
The whole thing's unnecessary. The Greek myths are nearly always used by Homer rhetorically, and anything will be explained in footnotes.

Homer isn't difficult to get. Literal ten year olds read it, just fine.

>>8921030
Who the fuck is this guy and why aren't we using the infographic?

>>8921127
no

>not following the infographic religiously
>not reading in the original greek
>not traveling to Greece to learn about the culture before reading the Iliad
>not being as autistic as me
I realize my mistake expecting constructive discussion on lit

An attempt at a contribution to consider:

The first word of the Iliad, "menin", usually translated as "wrath" or "rage," is almost always associated with the gods through the rest of the Iliad, and in the few cases where it's used of another mortal (always in the mouth of a mortal character), it's always used to speculate about whether there's something divine about said mortal.

Most frequent uses of it besides in association with Achilles is with Apollo in books 1, 5, and 15, Zeus in books 5, 13, and 15, and "the gods" broadly in books 15 and 21. The other mortals it's used of are Diomedes in book 5 and "the House of Atreides" in book 9.

In short, Achilles stands out in having the kind of wrath that gods like Zeus and Apollo have, distinct from the anger of his fellow mortals.

>>8921249
This is contrasted by the Odyssey, which begins with andra, a man, a much less extraordinary feature and title for Odysseus, whom so many contemporary readers find a more relatable character when compared to Achilles, a demigod.

>>8921249
Good post. That word is most correctly translated as "wrath" because of the divine connotations "wrath" has in English. There are lots of other ways that Achilles stands out, but that's a big one.

>>8921307
'Anger' is another word I found in English translations for it, it really sounds like it downplays it. A poor choice.

I'd forgotten how delightful the violence is in this book. It's exciting when you finally get to read about the armies clashing in Book 4. And I personally love the way Menelaus and Paris' one on one fight is described. Menelaus just straight up wrecking him after his sword shatters is a lot of fun.

The other thing that strikes me is just how petty and childish the Gods are. Everyone knows greek gods are crazy but to actually read about it first hand is still notable. How did it affect the Greek mindset to grow up believing you lived in a world ruled by childish fucks that will actively screw you over for their own amusement? I'm no expert, perhaps some of you guys could elaborate on this topic.

As for the 'debate' going on up there. Guys fucking relax. I read both Homeric Epics in 10th grade and loved them. You don't need to read entire volumes of mythic literature to understand what are two rather personal stories. The majority of copies of seen of Iliad and Odyssey contain footnotes that are more then adequate at catching you up on anything specific you need to know.

>>8921317
Here's Pope:
Achilles' wrath, to Greece the direful spring
Of woes unnumber'd, heavenly goddess, sing!

Butler:
Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans.

Lattimore:
Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus
and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,

Fitzgerald:
Anger be now your song, immortal one,
Akhilleus’ anger, doomed and ruinous,

Fagles:
Rage — Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus’ son Achilles,
murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,

I like Fagles' the most. In spite of the Greek sentence structure not translating correctly to English, he still puts Rage in front, recognizing that the first word of the Iliad is put there for a reason.
Another interesting difference in the start of the two poems is how Homer handles the Muse. In the Iliad he tells the Muse to sing, whereas in the Odyssey he asks the Muse to sing through him and to relate to him the tale of Odysseus:

Iliad: Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus...
Odyssey: Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story...

>>8921299
>This is contrasted by the Odyssey, which begins with andra, a man, a much less extraordinary feature and title for Odysseus
It's certainly different, and not divine, like Achilles, but "andra" often suggests what makes men unique and powerful in their characteristic way (and so it also is used to refer to the virtue of courage, "andreia").

The lesser term might be something like "anthropos", "human being," which, because it's a collective wherein no one stands out, can seem more insulting in ancient Greek.

Interesting example of that, btw, is at the start of Book 9. Agamemnon wants Odysseus to convey to Achilles the following message, "that I never entered into her bed and never lay with her as is natural for humans (anthropoi), between men and women." (Bk.9, 133-134). When Odysseus actually conveys the message at line 276, he drops the reference to "anthropoi" altogether and adds "my lord" to the message. While Achilles seems not to believe Agamemnon's oath, it seems clear in the passage that he would've been insulted to be included among the mere "anthropoi," which sheds some light on the prudence of Odysseus who seems to know what'll insult Achilles.

>>8921375
>How did it affect the Greek mindset to grow up believing you lived in a world ruled by childish fucks that will actively screw you over
Their religion didn't have the problem of evil to deal with. Bad stuff happens to good people because the gods aren't a single omnibenevolent entity, but a plurality of conflicting viewpoints.

>for their own amusement?
They don't do it for their own amusement, "they have a plan" is the rationalization.

Your best plan is to read the tragedies, particularly those by Sophocles (a priest!) and Euripides. You will see characters cursing the gods, and then there is this in Eurpides' Herakles:

1311
Theseus:
All this is the work of no other god than Hera, Zeus’ wife. In that you are certainly correct but you must think carefully if this should cause you to die.
Now if it was the case that the gods have given everyone else a life free of troubles but you a cursed one, then, yes, rather than go on suffering, I would advise you to go ahead and die immediately.
But then, there’s no mortal who hasn’t been touched by misery; no god, either, if what the poets say is true. Because, have these gods not gone to each other’s bed, committing sinful unions? Have they not fettered their fathers with shameful chains, just to become king? Yet there they are, still continue to accept their sinful life, on Mount Olympus!
1320
What will your excuse be then? You’re a mortal who thinks so harshly of his own sins while the gods themselves see no wrong in their sin at all!
Well, obey the law, Herakles and leave Thebes. Come with me to the city of Pallas Athena! Come and I will cleanse your hands of all blemishes and give you a home and a portion of my wealth.
And I will give you all those gifts the citizens of Athens have given me when I saved their children, seven boys and seven girls, by killing the Minotaur of Knossos.
1330
They have given me plots of land all over the countryside and while you live, people will know them as being yours. Then, when you die and go to the Underworld, the whole of Athens will worship you as their hero with sacrifices and huge monuments.
It will be nothing short of a garland of achievement for them, in the eyes of all the Greeks, to be spoken well of for performing a good deed to a noble hero such as Herakles.
This will also be my repayment for saving my life because now I see that you are in need of friends.
When the gods honour us with good fortune, Herakles, we do not need friends. A god’s help, if and when he chooses to give it, is enough.

>>8921450
Now Theseu's lines is the "traditional" religious account. But look here what is the reply of Herakles:

1340
Herakles:
Dear friend, all these things you said are side issues. Nothing to do with my present troubles. In any case, I don’t believe any of it. I don’t believe that the gods engage is such unholy relationships, nor have I never believed this story about gods tying up their parents in chains and I won’t believe it now.
Nor can I ever believe that one god is the lord of another.
A god, if he is a real god, is in need of nothing. These are just miserable tales made up by poets.
Still, though I’m in this point of misery, I have just had the thought that perhaps, if I die of my own accord, people might think I am a coward. Because the man who cannot stand against misfortune will not be able to stand against an enemy’s arrow either.


Herakle's viewpoint is that of the Greek mysteries, the esoteric religious currents, which influenced these plays.

This theology carries on with Plato. Plato does not believe "god" can castrate and tie up his father. Plato also came up with the word "theology" or at least he's the earliest source for it.

If you want a better understanding of the Greeks relationships with the gods, including even rape, read the tragedies when you're done with Homer and Hesiod.

Homer and Hesiod (and Pindar...) collected traditional accounts into their poetry, whereas the playwrights have been described by some scholars as the first intellectuals.

>>8921375
>Everyone knows greek gods are crazy but to actually read about it first hand is still notable. How did it affect the Greek mindset to grow up believing you lived in a world ruled by childish fucks that will actively screw you over for their own amusement? I'm no expert, perhaps some of you guys could elaborate on this topic.

There are a few things to keep in mind here, but most important is that the search for glory—kleos—is done in a way to immortalize themselves after they die. The gods don't have any need of this, because they're immortal, and so they can afford to act as they please without regard to gaining fame.

>>8921450
>Their religion didn't have the problem of evil to deal with.

Disagree. They knew about the problem of evil, or at least Homer did, and he answers that very problem in the Odyssey. From Fagles:
"Ah how shameless—the way these mortals blame the gods.
From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes,
but they themselves, with their own reckless ways,
compound their pains beyond their proper share."

In other words, men explain the problem of evil by putting the blame on the gods, whereas Zeus says that evil exists because men bring it upon themselves. He goes on to use Aegisthus as an example who "above and beyond his share he stole Atrides' wife/ he murdered the warlord coming home from Troy/ though he knew it meant his own total ruin./ Far in advance we told him so ourselves," and so on.

>>8921471
>whereas Zeus says that evil exists because men bring it upon themselves
"You eventually get retribution for your actions", which is in the traditional Homeric-Hesiodic account, is "bad stuff happens to bad people."

It has nothing to do with explaining why bad stuff happens to good people, which is the center of the problem of evil (i.e. Book of Job in the Bible, etc.).

>>8921488
But that's not what it's saying. You're ignoring half of the lines I quoted, coming from Zeus, which is that men cause their own troubles.

>>8921495
Why do good men suffer then?

Let me add, in brief, that the tragedians' solution to the problem of evil "bad stuff happens to good people because they are the chosen of the gods and relevant and do great, good things that way."

This would carry on all the way to Christianity and martyrdom.

>>8921501
They suffer because good men are not perfect men, and they still make errors. Even Odysseus, wise and good as he is, blunders by exposing his name to Polyphemus and being persecuted by Poseidon as a result, and even before that he recklessly causes the deaths of six of his men to Polyphemus because of his curiosity and desire of gifts. For reference, you could take a look at this little essay by George E. Dimock, Jr., where he elaborates this idea very much, and adds some essential details:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jdk3t/NameOdysseus.pdf

>>8921466
>>8921450

Was one viewpoint more common then the other? Thesus' to me describes a life that you have almost no agency over. Where they seem themselves as pawns that know their pawns. Herakles perspective seems a lot more Your Life Is In Your Hands. Don't Blame the Gods.

>>8921534
>They suffer because good men are not perfect men
The problem of evil isn't about perfect men, it's about perfect god(s) who are benevolent.

The gods of the myths and poets, accounts which Plato and the tragedians call bullshit on, rape people left and right.

Let's just say I'm not surprised to know that: "Your life is shit because you're not perfect enough, by the way Apollo raped you because he's perfect and you aren't, lol", wasn't destined to be the most popular and long-lived of theodicies.

>>8921606
>Was one viewpoint more common then the other?
Yes, and it kept changing. As I said, the mysteries were esoteric, small groups, away from the mainstream religion.

But the plays of the tragedians were performed during things like pan-Hellenic games, festivities, etc. and thus were public acts, bringing a glimpse of the mysteries' theologies to the attention of the populace.

Then Plato got the Academy started and revolutionized education, and most of his attacks on the poets (their works were the basis of the education) you will find in nothing less than his most famous work, the Republic (the Republic isn't just about the politics of the ideal state, justice or, it talk a lot about education).

The theologies (or lack thereof) of the early Greek religion, poets, mysteries, tragedians, Presocratics, Skeptics, Stoics, Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Hellenistic Greek religion, Roman Religion via interpretatio graeca, Hermeticism, Gnosticism, and ultimately Christianity were different, because each instance of this thing called "religion" is a big fat long process of criticism and reinterpretation, which is still going on today, and every person has a particular relationship (or lack thereof) with the supernatural.

Just to give an example, the pendulum of popularity of Calvinist and Arminian in Reformed Churches in the US keep oscillating.

And they have opposing views on free will vs the divine master plan not unlike your reading of Theseus and Herakles there.

>>8921704
*(the Republic isn't just about the politics of the ideal state, justice or the soul, it talks a lot about education).
herp

Book 4 finished my lads

>>8922493
Thoughts so far?

>>8920250
>>8920281
>>8920306
>>8920313


OP here. This seemed to be going well, but I can't have sidetracked convos like this from those of you who disagree with the way the club will go, so let me settle this.

I had taught a college mythology and classics which involved use of the Iliad, and most students who come in my class already know most of the gods. The main reason we're doing strictly canon works for the focus is because of several reasons:

Most of us taking part in this thread have already read some background, and if not, then that is why I provided a lot of extensive sources for those of you who care. You may argue that this isn't fair to have those jump right into the Iliad, but the truth is that we're likely going to lose steam. I also think that I would go neurotic if I had to read another damned Greek source book because that had been half of my life. If you dont agree with how the group is to be run, that's fine, and I respect your opinion, but most of us have lives and want to get through the canon. Thanks for the input, though. If the majority of you would like to take some pauses between books to patch questions about certain characters or myths, let me know. This shouldn't be some stressful activity, I thought it would be fun to hang out with a bunch people and have good discussion about canon works.
>>8921038
if it remains this bad, an irc can be created.

That aside, how are we liking books 3 and 4? I already see some great discussion.

That aside, how are we liking books 3 and 4?

>>8922500
>That aside, how are we liking books 3 and 4?
Paris is a damn coward, and Zeus is way too permissive.

>I respect
Don't. He's making fascism out of a recommendation to ruin your thread. Sad creatures inhabit these boards.

>>8922498
Going through all those names in chapter 2 was a bit tedious. Fun to see how childish the gods are and how death is glorified. Really enjoying it so far, looking forward to continuing tomorrow.

File: 401px-Diomedes_Louvre_Ma890_n4.jpg (40KB, 401x599px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 401x599px

DIOMEDES HYPE

Just finished chapter 4. Its alot better than I expected, the fight scene was intense af.

Why doesnt Zeus just smack his waifu upside the head for blatantly working against his designs?

>>8920265
Thanks picture anon.

Also, one last little rant before we discuss in depth the third and fourth books. I get that we jumped into this, but there's not much need to have planned this out a week I'm advance. Also, I already told you guys we'd use an irc if things seemed to have going south, which clearly is occurring at this point. I figured we could have the discussions just in be thread because I didn't think we'd trigger an anon enough to get away from actually discussion. Please don't take a reading group like this like it's an official sponsored organization. Let's just all chill out and have a good time boys.

Also how do you guys feel about hectors banter with his brother in he beginning of book 3? Pretty hilarious

I want to START WITH THE GREEKS too, but I don't know if I should read the Iliad on my mother tongue or English

>>8922726
>hectors banter with his brother
It's a moment that defines both characters.

>>8922746
>my mother tongue
Which would that be?

Read a 21st century translation if able.

>>8922764
Right, I forgot. Spanish

>>8922771
If and only if you feel confident that you can read a full epic poem in English without any meaningful fatigue, go ahead.

I wouldn't do that in the case of a Romance language though, because of the continuity with Latin and Greek...

>>8922801
I'll keep it in mind, thanks. Guess I'll be looking for a good Spanish translation.

>>8922850
I recommend the version published by Gredos. That's the one I'm using, anon. Translated by Emilio Crespo Güemes.

>>8922888
Ah, thanks, you saved me a bit of fuss.

> tfw downloaded the Fagles translation but can't be bothered to start reading it

>>8923062
woe is it to be pleb

stop shirking man, get caught up before its too late.

>>8916890
Ok Homos, I'll bite it.

Is the 1st book in the chart available in a torrent site?

>>8923203
Holy fuck you are a lazy piece of shit, you don't deserve to read the Iliad.

>>8923281
Not him, but do you know how many pages the book has? It says ~500 but the epub i got only has 390

>>8916603
>Give up my captured whore to win the war and save hundreds of men? Nah.

>>8923349
epub page number will depend on font size which you can change.

These battles are getting really cool. How important is to keep a good idea on who each of the captains were and stuff that were mentioned in book 2? Thats a lot

>>8917166
vincenzo monti? fuck it's 3 am in italy u probably wont read this post

>>8923411
You can pretty much forget that stuff from book 2.
Most everyone worth hearing about In a battle will have some backstory told when they show up.

>>8923411

Yeah chapter 2 isn't really important. It's just a way for you to get a sense of the scale of the battle.

The other purpose was to get you, if you were a then present day Greek, hyped when you hear who and what your city contributed to this epic battle from the Age of Heroes.

I've started reading the Mythology book and was instantly gripped.

I understand now why it may be necessary for most. Too many fucking names flying around with no context will fuck any reading experience.

Reposting from last thread, a quick introduction with backstory.
http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/arch/iliad/IliadGuide01.html

>>8923921
Read Mythology instead of the Iliad, then re-join the group for the Odyssey.

>>8924108
She clearly implies that the Odyssey is the best of the two, but I want to do them in order.

>>8924108
Or read Mythology really quickly, and then read 3 or 4 chapters of the Iliad instead of 2

Today's and tomorrow's readings are great. Book 5 is probably my favorite of the Iliad, though the whole thing is very good.
>>8924108
You should never skip the Iliad and read the Odyssey for any reason. I hope nobody actually does this.

Please stop replying to Mythology posters.

>>8916556
You are a true friend to 4chan

File: 1481477399359.jpg (93KB, 640x670px) Image search: [Google]

93KB, 640x670px

Jesus, Agamemnon is like a rebellious teenager and the gods are his parents.

>>8916813
It's like /lit/'s Great Awakening. Born out of the ashes of the Holiday season.

>>8923437
>monti
Leave that crap to compulsory education textbooks.

Monti does not even translate from the Greek, for crying out loud. Clearly it's not the best way to start with the Greeks.

For the record I recommend:

Iliad: Paduano (Mondadori)
Odyssey: di Benedetto (BUR)

Unlike a poetic rewriting, with these translations you can actually compare verses with other translations, because the number of verses is the same.

"Cantami, o Diva, del Pelíde Achille" is not even a translation of the first verse of Homer in its entirety.

"Canta, Musa divina, l'ira di Achille figlio di Peleo," is.

>>8924574
Here's an article on several Italian translations of the classics, not limited to Homer:
http://rivistatradurre.it/2013/05/un-dilettante-alla-corte-dei-classici/

Just finished with book 2. Achilles' mother, Thetis, alludes to his being doomed to an early death multiple times. Can anyone elaborate on this? I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything.

What soundtrack are you using while reading these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfuZL_RZwIw

>>8925049
>Can anyone elaborate on this?
There really isn't much to elaborate on as early as the second book. Thetis is a goddess, and as such she is in the privileged position to know from the Fates that her son's days are numbered.

The real "Can you elaborate on that?" is in book XVIII when Achilles himself will talk this over with Thetis, and accept his fate.

Fate and choice is quite the central theme of the Iliad, but Achilles has a minor role in a good portion of the poem's beginning.

Homer is giving you an appetizer there. A teaser trailer before you go and see the movie.

I believe that prophecies in lengthy epic poems would make people more willing to listen to the poet a second time ("Oh, now I know what the prophecy was talking about!").

>>8925053
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAxCx95mO8

File: silencing_the_absence_of_sound.jpg (52KB, 594x858px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 594x858px

>>8925053

>>8925107
Oh, okay, because the way it's phrased led me to think that something Achilles did/the circumstances of his birth led to him being doomed to an early death.

Carry on the next two books in here, lest you guys want a fresh one

Here comes five and six, if you guys want an irc go and start one, I'm off to work and I shouldn't be back any later than 5

>>8925215
>the circumstances of his birth
While it is true that demigods do tend to be tragic heroes, but we can't know for sure if it is a pattern started or discovered by Homer as far as Greek myth is concerned, besides pointing out that Gilgamesh is a precursor of this.

>>8925245
There are demigods that are indeed tragic heroes, but live much longer and even attain full deity, Heracles being the prime example of a tragic hero that becomes a full-fledged god, an immortal, even in the popular religion.

Whereas immortality is something Gilgamesh could never achieve.

Rather we should say that, in the Greek religion, everyone's fate is assigned at birth, so Achilles isn't different, he simply had a powerful motivation to attain glory and become an immortal legend with what little time he had.

File: Homeric_Greece-en.svg.png (1MB, 2000x1668px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2000x1668px

People were asking about the locations of the many peoples involved in the Trojan War in another thread.

I thought this could be handy.

>>8925226
I think we should hold off on a potential irc until we really get into it.
Like 2 or 3 more days to see if it's nessecary. I don't think it will be, but maybe we could do a poll and see what people think.
That's when actual discussion should really start, since we are still very early. New readers are just getting to know everyone, and not a lot has happened.

>>8925381
I'm reading it alongside

>>8921450
>>8921375
Helen curses Aphrodite too as she dooms the two armies to more fighting by spiriting Paris away during his fight to the death (Book 4). She even calls her a whore.

>>8925381
>Try to recognise that the Iliad was never "great" for anyone who wasn't someone who read Edith Hamilton's 'Mythology' first.
Holy fuck, read The Elements of Style before ever attempting to compose a sentence again.
& this Edith Hamilton bullshit is so tiring, you could read the related parts in a few hours. You chart-mongers can't imagine reading James Joyce without the 4-book chronological chart a bunch of 14 year olds put together.

Not to mention, Mythology is a decent book but nearly obsolete in the age of the internet, if you're only using it to bolster an understanding of the Iliad.

File: image.jpg (25KB, 640x137px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 640x137px

WEW today's reading is gonna be good.
Pic pretty related.
Books 4 and 5 really sold me on the Iliad. The surrounding books are good but those stand out to me.

>>8925539

its a meme you dip

>>8925596
People are only replying because newfags will actually get confused

File: 1474018866787.jpg (57KB, 400x388px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 400x388px

>mfw the English versions of Homer are easier than the ones in my native language

>>8926138
Which English version are you reading?

>>8925863

The reading Mythology bit isn't a meme, it's a good idea. The structure of the first sentence is a meme, referencing the attached pic.

>>8926179
Fagles

>>8926188
>Fagles

Is this version /lit/ approved? It's free on the Kobo website.

>tfw using Stephen Mitchell's translation because it's the only one available at my library

D-Don't lynch me /lit/

>>8926138
Perhaps it's easier because the mother tongue ones you tried aren't from the 21st century?

>>8926295
Not really, it's a Latin language. Way too many words. I'd rather have a broader comprehensible picture of what I'm reading than a precise incomprehensible one.

>>8926204

Yes, it's rather good.

>>8926241
If it's anything like his """""translation"""""" of Gilgamesh then you should accept that what you're reading is more like a retelling of the Illiad.

>>8926402
After doing some research it seems that the main gripe people have with him is his omission of the epithets but besides that it's pretty fine

>>8926402
His translation of Gilgamesh is the best one for casual reading. Study the direct translation, but when you want to enjoy Gilgamesh as the great work of literature it was intended to be, his translation is truly the best option.

Taking refuge in this thread because this board is fucking abysmal today.

>>8926402
What is the best Gilgamesh translation then?

>>8927005
Andrew George, imo.

File: 1474046832061.gif (96KB, 248x203px) Image search: [Google]

96KB, 248x203px

>>8927060
>He's not a faggot

>>8927080
I'm not the one with images gay sex saved on his hard drive, buddy.

>>8919448
Yeah I got tired of hearing about, who comes from where, how many goats they had, who was their father, their son, how many boats they had to their troop, and how nice their shoulders were. I pushed through and got such a surge of relief when it was over. Then absolute dread when I realized that the Trojans had to roll call as well. It starts getting sweet afterwards though.

>>8927126
but probably cp. SAD!

>>8927005
>>8927067
Ja, the Penguin edition of his is really nice too. It has the Old Babylonian version and the Sumerian lays as well.

>>8927005
>What is the best Gilgamesh translation then?
Myths from Mesopotamia, Oxford

You get the whole package instead of simply Gilgamesh alone.

And if you still think it's not enough, get The Treasures of Darkness: A History of Mesopotamian Religion as well.

>>8923062
>>tfw
you didn't post a face you dumbass

>>8925053
https://youtu.be/MZhR7SmxpPI

Today's reading contained two of my favorite parts of this book. First, Diomedes going head to head with Gods never gets old. To me he's the epitome of the never say die Greek warrior that is so popular in movies and pop culture.

Second is a scene that struck me as much when I read it today as it did when I first read this 10 years ago. The scene where Hector visits his wife and son for what is sure to be the last time. The small touches of humanity in that scene, such as his son being frightened at the sight of his father with helmet on, really helps to humanize Hector and by extension the whole book. Despite living in the Greek mythic age the heroes in this book are still just men that want to take care of their families and to see them again with their honor intact.

Did others enjoy these two books as much as I did?

>>8929281
I'm on the part where Diomedes tells Paris to 1v1 him,

"So brave with your bow and arrows—big bravado—
glistening lovelocks, roving eye for girls!
Come, try me in combat, weapons hand-to-hand—
bow and spattering shafts will never help you then.
You scratch my foot and you're vaunting all the same—
but who cares? A woman or idiot boy could wound me so.
The shaft of a good-for-nothing coward's got no point
but mine's got heft and edge. Let it graze a man--
my weapon works in a flash and drops him dead.
And his good wife will tear her cheeks in grief,
his sons are orphans and he, soaking the soil
red with his own blood, he rots away himself—
more birds than women flocking round his body!"

What a legend, man.

File: diomedes.png (731KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

731KB, 1280x720px

>>8929281
>Diomedes going head to head with Gods never gets old. To me he's the epitome of the never say die Greek warrior that is so popular in movies and pop culture.

I'm trying to catch up but man is this second chapter boring.

I was already reading the Iliad, am literally at Patroklos' death, but will return here for commentary

>>8916556
>Here's 45 gigs of military history. Go bananas
>>https://mega.nz/#F!ZAoVjbQB!iGfDqfBDpgr0GC-NHg7KFQ
Holy mother of God

Where was this link when I made

>>8920927

>>8930917
Hang in there. Diomedes will make up for it in a while.

>>8931086
Assuming it survives. Was looking dicey for a while there on page 9.

File: diomedes.jpg (185KB, 800x1203px) Image search: [Google]

185KB, 800x1203px

>>8930727
>>8931176
>>8929308
Does Diomedes remind anyone of pic related or is it just me

>>8916556
>>8931093
Is there anything in Bronze Age warfare archaeology there?

[Just posting in the hopes of catching Greek-San from another now dead thread who helped me out sourcing an Athena story. Thanks anon, much appreciated.]

>>8931573
No problem.

I believe I did tell you I didn't know about Nonnus or the Dionysiaca before you had me search for that story.

I-It's not like I acted out of altruism or anything!

File: pic0904-pirsig002.jpg (61KB, 331x479px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 331x479px

>>8917032
>>8917019

A-ga-meme-none

File: maxresdefault.jpg (78KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 1280x720px

>>8931607
You funny guy.

I steal your waifu last.

Why do the characters praise their enemies? Why does Agamemnon, while talking about his hopes for the destruction of ilium, call it "mighty Ilius" in book 4?

>>8932564
It's ancient Greek tradition to respect yoru enemy as the worthy opponen he is. They aren't "praising" them.

>>8932564
It's mighty because it is a giant city that took 10 years to destroy. There is mention many times in the book of "Glory to me if I win in battle, glory to my enemy if he kills me in battle"

>>8932564
>>8932575
They are literally praising each other

They see each other as equals. Half the people on the Trojan and Greek side have probably had each other as dinner guests. Guest-friendship is how aristocrats would travel in those days, and you'd have to exchange gifts with real meaning that have been in your family and associated with heroic deeds and stuff, be an extremely good host and then have the favour returned at some later date

It's sort of like how medieval knights probably felt more in common with "foreign" knights than with the peasants, half the kings of various countries are each other's cousins, the king of England is a Saxon prince and the Empress of Russia is a Saxon princess etc.

>>8932601
Good post.

The Greek idea of guest-friendship will be more important and more developed in the Odyssey, and is elaborated on by Finley in his The World of Odysseus.

>>8932564
Is this some sort of bait? Are you a woman?

>>8932688
I would say what you said is bait.

>>8932564
>Why do the characters praise their enemies?
They are not barbarians like, say, the Persians, where only one man isn't a slave: the king.

These are virtuous enemies that they can point a finger at, and tell their youth to follow their example.

They are honorable people and see them as equal, they just happen to be on the wrong side of the battlefield.

>Why does Agamemnon, while talking about his hopes for the destruction of ilium, call it "mighty Ilius" in book 4?
Agamemnon is not the kind of butthurt cunt that would claim the resistance his armies met to be insignificant, solely because it's um... resisting him.

Since the fighting goes on for a decade now, the people of this city are indeed a mighty foe, no need to lie to oneself about that.

Perhaps to Homer it is not exciting to tell a story that sounds like a video game on easy mode: "We met hordes of suicidal irrelevancies, quickly massacred them all with no effort whatsoever, and for some reason believe that we are brave."

Maybe Homer didn't live in North Korea.

WHERE IS THE NEW THREAD

>>8917131
yeah

>>8922888
Using the same here, really enjoying it, though i wouldn't know if it's accurate or whatever

>>8917958
Those storys were known proverbially by people back then.

>>8933619
Just make it

>>8917958

>Wow Achilles is a fuckin nigger. The original primadonna.

This is the meme reading among high school students but how would you feel if someone stole your gf and gave her away, dishonoring and embarrassing you, just to fight a war that's completely pointless in the first place?

Hector was a cuck.

>And besides, Nestor is a top tier character anyway

>Nestor is the only character who's remotely fleshed out besides Achilles, Hector, Helen and Odysseus

FTFY

Did the Shakespeare group die? There were two of them, then one, now none.

>>8936623
I wouldn't know. It was meant to be a weekly group, IIRC

Is anyone even maintaining this anymore if not I'm gonna start a new thread after 404

>>8939128
Wasn't enough prep time for me to join you guys. I just bought a copy of The Iliad, and I am finishing another book up first, so I couldn't join.

>>8939128
Let's hope the new thread doesn't get fucked up by some anon's autism

>>8939197
Nice bump dumbass

>>8939128
I read the first book and haven't continued. I have a lot less free time this term than I thought I was going to

I find Book 10 extremely inconsistent with the Achaean's war ethics. They seem to respect the Trojans as their equals and face them headlong in open battle yet Diomedes slaughters unarmoured, fully vulnerable Trojans in their sleep? I find this behaviour puzzling to say the least.

Could it be attributed to desperation from being pushed back to their black ships?

>>8917608
Tente Frederico Lourenço, anão. Mesmo sendo em português europeu, é a melhor tradução de nossa língua.

>>8932564
It's a forme of praising oneself more than the enemy. To acknowledge their greatness is to give yourself an even greater glory when you defeat them.

File: interior_homer_iliadbkX465to514b.jpg (81KB, 600x345px) Image search: [Google]

81KB, 600x345px

>>8939549
No, it's not even a matter of desperation.

It's an "it's not cheating if you don't get caught" and "if you let the enemy massacre you in your sleep, you deserve it" and "that's what you get for not guarding the camp, you glory-less scrubs" kind of thing.

After sundown, the battles are over, sure, but the war isn't. Cue espionage, sabotage and subterfuge.

The Greeks don't simply praise courage, they praise metis, too. Metis is translated by some English authors as "shrewdness" or "cunning."

Odysseus, that clever bastard, is a master of it, and you see it in the Iliad too.

>>8939549
>I find Book 10 extremely inconsistent with the Achaean's war ethics.
It's likely a later story inserted into the Iliad by someone else.

>>8940082
Yeah, my edition (Stephen Mitchell) omitted the whole thing and dumped it in the appendix.

>>8940054
Isn't it strange that Hector didn't just run down the Achaeans in Book 8 then? Or Diomedes didn't spear the Trojan guest-friend when they were exchanging armour, so on and so forth.

File: cheetah.png (763KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

763KB, 800x800px

>>8940242
>Hector didn't just run down the Achaeans in Book 8 then?
Because Zeus decreed the Trojan victorious, the fight over (and the retreat safe) with one thunder, followed by three more.

The clever thing here is to avoid fucking with Zeus further when the signs are so obvious, and repetitive.

>guest-friend
Glaucus? They are relatives, both descendants of Bellerophon, of course the scene would stand out with unusual levels of hospitality and storytelling for the battlefiled.

But I see that you're missing the point of this talk about metis. Because in that very scene there are Odysseus-tier shenanigans at work.

With the help of Zeus (are you seeing a pattern here? Zeus frequently helps the heroes!) taking the wits away from Glaucus, Diomedes traded 9 oxen worth of bronze armor for Glaucus' 100 oxen worth golden one.

>pic related, it must have been Homer's audience hearing the tale

Who /skimmedthroughfactionintroductionsinbook2/ here?

>>8940621
Okay, I think I'll get used to this concept of metis as we go through the books.

And yeah, I found it pretty unfair that Zeus made it so that Glaucus agreed to an unfair deal.