/wprg/ War and Peace Reading Group: Day Seven

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>>8887705
OP here.

Today was probably my favourite section of the book so far. We had:

>Nikolai returning home
>The Duel
>Andrei's return and the death of his wife
>Nikolai's debt to Dolokhov

The way Tolstoy portrays Dolokhov in these chapters is fascinating: there's this constant oscillation between giving the reader grounds for sympathy with him (his mother, his explanation of his worldview etc.) and the revocation of that ground (treating /ourguy/, Pierre, and best husbando, Nikolai, like shit). What does /lit/ make of his character?

What do we think of the implications of this change in Andrei's character. following the Battle of Austerlitz? How do we think his worldview has changed, and is this reflected in this chapter?

Did /ourguy/ Pierre do absolutely nothing wrong and did Dolokhov deserve it? the answer is yes

>>8887876
Dolokhov is an asshole, who gets his kicks by being edgy and cries about it when it blows in his face.

He's that bully at school, that had shit parents at home living in poverty.

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>>8887876
the question is—do you believe dolokhov is actually loyal? i don't; i think he's a true sociopath since he's been regarded as such by objective parties (i.e. not pierre).

i trust my girl natasha's insight and her brother should have listened to her.

on a side note, why is pierre's duel seen of as dishonorable? wouldn't the only way to regain honor from a cheating wife and insouicant "friend" be to duel it out?

>>8887943
Agreed, your excellency.

Pierre confirmed for doing absolutely nothing wrong except not shooting him properly

>>8887945
We're not really 100% sure that Dolokhov actually did anything that Pierre imagines him to. So I imagine the duel is seen as dishonorable because the public at large sees Dolokhov as innocent, despite him being pretty obviously guilty.

>>8887705
OP of the Count of monte cristo group here.

Good luck with the readthrough. I hope we both succeed and a new dawn rises for /lit/ group activities

Just wanted to know, what was the headcount before you started this and how has participation been? What kind of drop off have you had so far?

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>Haven't read the book for a few days
>Thought I was like 100 pages behind
>Check the thread
>I'm caught up exactly

Why is Nikolai such an absolute cunt lids?

>>8887876
>his mother, his explanation of his worldview etc
I don't think these parts were supposed to give the reader "grounds for sympathy", unless you have a thing for melodramatic confessions.

There's a theory that in the book, Dolokhov serves as a reflection of Napoleon, a person full of ego, caring just as little about human lives and others' feelings, and just like many tyrants big and small, often soppy sentimental. And it's not by accident how carefully Tolstoy underlines this exact trait: the little Napoleon cries about his poor mom and sister and it's the same poor melodrama like the one with the big Napoleon that will shed tears over a portrait of his son delivered from France right in the middle of the Borodino battle.

>>8887959
weren't the people at the rostovs' dinner described as knowing about the affair, like anna m.? if they knew, why would they be the ones who defend dolokhov and ignore natasha?

plus, dolokhov didn't make any effort to stop the duel, though i guess that was explained by "his debt to pierre"

>>8887972
We had two inaccurate early headcounts: one was the survey, and the other was the # of posters in the thread. The survey results are basically worthless, because everyone clicked the link and took the survey even if they weren't participating. It has 62 responses.

The number of posters per thread has been around 28. That's held pretty steady give or take a few.

More recently, a strawpoll was given on day 5 showing 15 participants: http://www.strawpoll.me/11936599/r

Strawpoll on day 6 showed 13 participants: http://www.strawpoll.me/11943611/r

We will see what today's strawpoll shows.

>>8887972

OP here

It's a little hard to tell since it very much varies from thread to thread, but the drop-off has been pretty minimal compared to past reading groups. I think we're all hoping for these two reading-groups to work, considering how the last ones have gone.

The choice of book I think makes a big difference. Picking something like War and Peace or Count of Monte Cristo, over something like Gravity's Rainbow, means you get very little drop-out over the difficulty of the book, considering they're both have fairly straightforward narratives.

Anyway, good luck with your read-through. If we can get them both over the finish line, then it really will be a new dawn for /lit/. I wish I could have joined in, but I'm not confident about my ability to handle two books of that size at the same time. But I'm almost certain these won't be the last reading groups we make on /lit/ and I'll be sure to join in your next one.

>>8887993
Thanks. We recorded 22 participants on day 1. Day 4 right now. The thread has been up for 8 hours and it's just me and one other dude bumping it.

I might steal the idea of a 'how caught up are you' poll. It could be that everyone is still around but nobody has anything to talk about. TCoMC isn't as complex as W&P, though I thought there would be more discussion.

Wish us luck.

Btw here's the guy, a distant relative of Leo Tolstoy, a well known duelist and gambler, who served if not the sole but probably the biggest prototype of Dolokhov in the book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Ivanovich_Tolstoy
>Tolstoy loved gambling and became particularly famous for this during his years in Moscow. He did not hide the fact that he sometimes cheated. According to the memoirs of his contemporaries, Tolstoy did not like to rely on luck during a game, preferring, by way of cardsharping, to "play for certain", since "only fools rely on luck", as he himself liked to say.[2] A. N. Vulf recounts that once when Pushkin met Tolstoy playing cards, he remarked upon his cheating, to which Tolstoy replied, "Yes, I know that myself, but I do not like to be reminded of it."[6] Partly owing to his cheating, Tolstoy often won large sums of money, which he in general spent rapidly and capriciously on society life. At other times Tolstoy became the victim of other cardsharps and suffered great losses.

>Even more famous was Tolstoy's participation in a number of duels, the reasons for which were often found in card games. It is unknown how many duels Tolstoy fought in his life, but some accounts state that he killed eleven men altogether in duels.[4] For Tolstoy, duels were evidently not only a way of vindicating his honor—as was accepted in officers' circles in Russia—but also an ordinary pastime.

>>8888027
>>8888014
>>8887993
Glad to be along guys, hopefully you guys had a great christmas

>>8888014
>good luck with your read-through
Cheers m8.

>>8887979
>I don't think these parts were supposed to provide "grounds for sympathy"
I have to disagree. Dolokhov's explanation that he cares about his mother and about his friends, despite viewing the rest of the world antagonistically is a nuancing of his character by Tolstoy. He is showing us that our assumption that Dolokhov has a simplistic psychology, which is entirely self-serving is wrong, and, whether his excuses are good or not (they aren't) it introduces a complexity and ambiguity to the character.

The Dolokhov we see before this point is entirely malevolent, but the Dolokhov Tolstoy gives us afterwards, might, in another, hackier writer's work, play the part of an anti-hero.

>>8888054
>He is showing us that our assumption that Dolokhov has a simplistic psychology, which is entirely self-serving is wrong, and, whether his excuses are good or not (they aren't) it introduces a complexity and ambiguity to the character.

This is how I saw it, too. I'm already quite a ways into volume two and I've yet to see any characters that are so simple as Dolokhov appeared to be. They're all more than just one dimensional, as people are in real life.

>is it worth tormenting oneself, when one has only a moment of life in comparison with eternity?

Pierre

So did Dolokhov cheat at cards or did he go YOLO?

>>8888318
i believe dolokhov cheated but rostov was stupid to play that much money anyway.

>>8888242
parts like that make this book worth reading, the socializing and war scenes are okay but these reflective scenes are the best.

Quite the rollercoaster.
Andrey is dead!
Wait, Andrey is alive and makes it back in time for the birth of his son!
Annnd his wife dies in child birth.

Right in the feels.

Also, fuck Dolokhov, that little bitch ass. He got fucked up by Pierre who's never even held a gun before. I wish we would have died.

Seems like Nikolay is starting to become unhinged a bit as well. It looks like Andrey is going to develop some PTSD. It would appear the war is taking its toll on these young men.

>>8888318
He cheated. He said other people call him a card sharp and refuse to play with him because he cheats. So obviously he cheated.

>>8887876
I took Dolokhov's treatment of Nikolai as 1) a way to get at Sonya and 2) a way of getting back at Nikolai for abandoning him after the duel. I believe Dolokhov's intent regarding the debt was to force Nikolai to help him win over Sonya. That he instead paid his debt was probably a surprise to Dolokhov.

Finished the reading for day 7.

Words read on day 7: 23,609
Time taken: 62 minutes

Total words read so far: 156,201
Total words in book: 563,286
Total time taken so far: 6 hours 39 minutes
Approximate total reading time: 25 hours

We have now read as much as The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, or Oliver Twist, or Emma. Or just the first Fifty Shades of Grey novel.

>>8888716
Is it ever actually mentioned how Andrew returned? I'm far past you guys but that fact has always puzzled me and I suspect I just missed something. Did the war cease and all the prisoners were returned? Is it not explained?

>>8888818
How are you enjoying the book so far, my dude?

>>8888841
It isn't told. I think it will be told in the next chapters.

>>8888851
It is very good, lots of different emotions in this reading, and I'm still working over how they all relate to each other.

It's more exciting to read knowing others are reading at the same time with me.

>>8888014
What will the next book be? Started war and peace late, so i dont think that i'm going to catch up.

>>8888902
There are catch up days where there's no reading done by the people up to that point, and we're not very far in yet. Join in!

>>8888902
I am not sure what the next book will be, but I would like to direct you to two other groups:

Here they are reading The Count of Monte Cristo. It's a long one, but they have only just begun and it's a very quick read. The early readings are quite short and you could easily catch up in a day. >>8886842

>>8886388 Is a short story reading group that is about to begin.

>>8888902
OP here.

I had the idea of launching straight into Anna Karenina after we finish War and Peace, because that's what I was gonna do anyway, but I'd have to see how people felt about that first.

>>8888947
That's a lotta Tolstoy.

>>8888952
Yeah, most people would probably see it as too much, and for that reason, I'm not all that hopeful about the prospect of doing that with /lit/. I'm just planning on working my through as much Tolstoy as I can this year.

But I thought it was worth mentioning, just in case people were up for it.

>>8888975
Hey man, if you wanna do some more Tolstoy I wouldn't mind joining a reading group for one of his shorter works like Hadji Murat or The Cossacks or whatever.

>>8888947
Yeah, i'm planning to read more of Tolstoi after i'm finished with W&P, but i'm looking for something shorter, as >>8889022 said. I think it would be good to see him writing a short story after the huge thing that is War and Peace.

>>8888841
I haven't come across that yet. I'm on the day 10 read and there's been no mention of it so far. I think it's too big of a mystery not to address, but we shall see.

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>the death of little princess
I cried.

Also, to Pierre the duel was much more about one situation where he could have some initiative, where he could take a action for himself, not getting guided by Vasili or someone. The battle of honor was not the central point, that's what I think. Because he recognize the futility of the act, the love he don't feel for his wife.

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>>8889839
>'No, it’s only indigestion . . . ! Say it’s only indigestion, say so, Marya! Say . . . ’
>And the little princess began to cry capriciously like a suffering child,
and to wring her little hands even with some affectation.

>>8887705
Oh fun, I happened to reserve it in the library and am going to pick it up later today,
Can I join?

>>8890083
I'll allow it.

>>8888975
In down for Ann Karina

>>8888818
>around 7 words a second
wow wtf how can you read this fast. 20 pages takes me an hour, but maybe im just retarded.

>>8890131
You'll get faster as you read more. Biggest thing I can recommend is try to keep forward momentum going as you read. Don't stop and don't look back.

Average reading speed for genre fiction is around 200 wpm. This is tougher content. I don't know exactly how fast you read, but it's probably average or above average.

>>8888783
Rostov didn't abandon him after the duel, did he?

>>8890351
He did not, that other poster is incorrect. He took care of Dolokhov and prepared his (Dolokhov's) mother for the impending news that her son had been wounded. Then they became friends.

>>8890351
The reasons for his falling out, as I gather:

>Nikolai understood that something must have happened between Sonya and Dolokhov before dinner, and with the kindly sensitiveness natural to him was very gentle and wary with them both at dinner.

>‘And you?’ he asked Dolokhov, but as soon as he had asked the question he noticed that it should not have been put.
>‘Perhaps,’ coldly and angrily replied Dolokhov, glancing at Sonya, and, scowling, he gave Nikolai just such a look as he had given Pierre at the Club dinner. ‘There is something up,’ thought Nikolai, and he was further confirmed in this conclusion by the fact that Dolokhov left immediately after dinner.

>‘And imagine! She refused him, refused him quite definitely!’ adding, after a pause, ‘She told him she loved another.’

>For two days after that Rostov did not see Dolokhov at his own or at Dolokhov’s home: on the third day he received a note from him: ‘As I do not intend to be at your house again for reasons you know of, and am going to rejoin my regiment, I am giving a farewell little feast tonight to my friends—come to the English Hotel.

>>8891147

NEW THREAD
NEW THREAD
NEW THREAD

>>8891147