Does /lit/ have a consensus on comics? Is there any literary

>>8872093
Yeah yeah, here it is >>>/co/

>>8872097
I generally view /lit/ as something more erudite than simply a board for books. It is the discussion of values and beliefs. I wanted to know if comics could convey thoughts and ideas as well as standard literature such as novels or essays. I suppose I should have worded my request better.

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>>8872093
>Is a picture worth a thousand words?

No. This is true in as far as images represent but representation is actually counterproductive to art.
The problem I see in comics is that they seem to be highly dependent on the perspective of the reader. What is literary challenges our perspective, words work so well for this as that the expression is abstracted, we have only the voice of the other in front of us.
With comics we have the limitations of visual media combined with the limitations of text. Its why its so tremendously limited.

>>8872126
You say comics are so horribly limited. Should they be passed over? As far as I know comics are relatively recent, especially when compared to that of literary texts. I definitely agree that most comics (for example most superhero comics, in adapting that weekly crisis format, are restricted to their format) are limited. But some are inspired in my opinion, forgoing that literary sense of explanation and utilising images to convey emotions. I am not saying comics are superior, text is above and beyond imo, but for possessing some value, I believe there are comics out there that are valid responses to the question of whether the amalgam of image and text are worthy. Should comic writers migrate to novels, novellas and assorted text-only formats instead, and spread their worth in such methods instead, or do comics and manga (excepting meme status) possess a place in this world veritably?

>>8872126
That is a very idiotic way of seeing it.

You could say the same about any written work. What you are saying is that painting is limiting as an artistic form.

Not only that, but you are also assuming that words somehow do not limit our perception, when we actually frame them, and they can't possibly be as objective as you make them out to be ("we have only the voice of the other in front of us"). That's a very naive way of seeing literature. You should read and study more before making bold but shallow claims like that.

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>>8872156
>Should they be passed over?

I enjoy some comics, like the one I posted.

I just think they don't have as much capacity of being worthy of deep analysis and consideration becausee what they express seems to be on the surface. Everything they express seems to be readily graspable. Which is why its so successful for children.

>>8872172
I do believe painting is limited too.
Words aren't objective, they're entirely subjective which is their benefit. Put something can be described in a way in which we would not describe it. Things can be asserted that we would not think of as true.
That is where we can begin to construe a different conscious world than our own.

>>8872198
Could I get the title and author of this comic?
And I agree with you. Comics seem to be the intro for a lot of people nowadays, especially children, into books, let alone literature.

>>8872208
Thats Maus by Art Spiegleberg

>>8872198
Yet painting and visual representation
can also do that.

Comics seem that way because most authors don't use or don't know how to use the tools at their disposal (words and images). Yet the exact same can be said of literature. When you don't use your tools (words and their disposition/arrangement) to their full potential and possibilities, then your supposed message is easily apprehensible because it os superficial. Visual representation is just a means, not an impediment.

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>>8872093
OP, read this, and you'll find out what's wrong with comics to imitating films.

Perhaps you'll also come to the realization that imitating literature is even worse.

Comic writers and artists should consider using the medium to its full potential and let it be its own thing, but will not.

>"Alan Moore was one of the first comics authors to write extensively and intelligently about the underpinnings of the craft," says writer Warren Ellis. "I know people who've been waiting fifteen years to see this reprinted. It goes right next to Eisner and McCloud on the smart reader's shelf."
Be a smart reader.

>>8872105
You were mistaken. /lit/ is a shit board with shit people. Most of these kids are new to reading and only repeat what someone else say. The amount of posts talking about books they didn't read is beyond anything.
/lit/ opinion regarding literary value is worth absolutely nothing. You come here for the memes, the casual discussion on books you have read (exclusive condition) and to learn of the existence of books you ignored, disregarding any opinion whatsoever until you've read it if it caught your eye.

>>8872223
*comics attempting to imitate films

>>8872223
>Comic writers and artists should consider using the medium to its full potential and let it be its own thing, but will not.

Leaving comics to their own medium, as opposed to that of literature. Where do you draw the line between literature and comics, and, for that matter, comics and pictures and film?
I feel comics, if only in some retarded way, are literature.

>>8872220
They can, but its simply far harder in my view.

>>8872093
>literary value

I don't know. It seems like they have different methods of communicating emotion than just words on their own. Wouldn't it be unfair to compare things that can offer things other things can't because of their initial conception?

That's my opinion. But the Nobel committee awarded a literary prize to a song writer, so that's supposed to be the "right" opinion, which they just decided to throw out, and every /lit/ magazine won't even entertain the thought that two different mediums shouldn't be grouped into the same category because it's an over simplification, in my opinion.

>>8872234
And bald men don't exist because we can't draw a concrete line when someone counts as bald.

This is a silly argument.

Eden - It's an Endless World
Oyasumi Punpun
Lamezone
Moebius

All the modern stuff you'll need in my opinion.

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Pictures have different aesthetic values than "literary value".

>>8872234
>Where do you draw the line between literature and comics
I can't read the text of a comic book (baloons, etc.) to a blind person and expect him or her to make sense of what's going on without me describing that shit that wasn't written down, only drawn.

>comics and pictures
Text in comics works like that of a play.

>film?
The pictures are moving, and because of this direction and camerawork make film an art of its own.

As you can see, attempting to imitate cinema without motion is immensely retarded and only a comic book writer would be stupid enough to try.

>>8872236
That's because your view is narrow and naive.

>>8872269
Durr if you say so

>>8872288
Your only argument is centered about what you think it can or can't do. It's completely arbitrary, yet you expect us to take you seriously because you say it with confidence.

>>8872300
>centered around***

>>8872241
This is a fallacious argument and refuses to answer the question. You can definitely draw a line between these mediums. You just refuse to. Insofar as comics are a 'still' medium (comics, pictures, books, sculptures, anything that lasts as a 'unmoving' image for eternity. Movies are viewed, traditionally, as a whole, whereas literature is quotable and episodic primarily) is the determination. Is the line drawn as soon as an image is introduced. What is the distinguishment?

>>8872259
This. In an avid comic reader (Fuck superhero shit other than certain Batmans) I read it because the artist can make dinner amazing work. If I want a deep literary experience I'll read literature, it's a different medium

>>8872300
There's nothing arbitrary in it, I stated the nature of how we relate to words compared to how we relate to images. You're the one who is disagreeing without offering any sort of counter argument.

>>8872259
Pictures, in an instant, can always convey an emotion with ease. The problem is the intention, but the appropriate solution can always evoke the greatest emotional response. But so can literature; the values seem arbitrary, for the most part, when in the hands of a master.

>>8872093
I find comics to be somewhat similar to video games. They certainly have the potential to have artistic value, but very few of the creators in those mediums are capitalizing on that potential

>>8872331
>the values seem arbitrary, for the most part, when in the hands of a master.

The collective worth of all visual art is nothing compared to Ulysses alone.
Music is the only artform that can touch literature

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>>8872325
The fact that we relate differently to words and images does not mean that images have no values, but that they have different values.
OP question was mistaken from the begining, "literary value" is not the only artistic value.

>>8872342
I agree, something this goomba doesn't seem to get

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I made a chart for /co/

What does /lit/ think of Grant Morrison?

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>>8872436
Sturgeon's law, OP

>>8872626
>>8872436

Sorry, didn't mean to quote you

>>8872630
It's alright.

>>8872436
I think We3 is the only thing he's made that isn't forgettable, his views on magic are a joke.

As a general rule, don't bother asking /lit/ about comic writers who wrote so few books.

https://youtu.be/8bSR9VdS5v4

Cinema >> 60s pop art comics >>> """"literary""" comics

>>8872694
>I think We3 is the only thing he's made that isn't forgettable
he literally just strapped guns to the animals from Homeward Bound.

>>8872694
Ye haven't read The Filth or Invisibles or Flex Mentallo or his Doom Patrol run then eh?

>comic writers who wrote so few books.
Nigga he has an entire wikipedia page just for the man's bibliography. Granted most of it's shite but ye dinnae ken whit yer on aboot.

>>8873424

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VqpzNTWkpFo

>>8873404
>Homeward Bound
Which is a remake of The Incredible Journey movie, adapted from the novel.

>>8873424
>Ye haven't read The Filth or Invisibles or Flex Mentallo or his Doom Patrol run then eh?
No, I must simply have forgotten them. Doom Patrol I do remember reading, but I don't even remember a single name beyond the series', the Brotherhood of Dada and Mr. Nobody.

>Nigga he has an entire wikipedia page just for the man's bibliography
And they're all comics! Gasp!

Really, there are five books in total there, three of which being fiction!

>>8873462
Do his fans that watch that speech of his, really continue to find him an agreeable fellow?

>>8872228

Not OP, but this is a reasonable explanation. I enjoy scrolling through philosophical threads as well, you can get an idea of the mindset of many philosophers.

>>8873488
>And they're all comics
No shit, he's a comic book writer. This is a comic books thread. They are comic books.
>No, I must simply have forgotten them.
Then you're an idiot.

>>8872093
Sandman

>>8873746
*The Sandman.

I like R. Crumb's stuff I can post some free megaupload downloads if anyone wants em

>>8872093
Read John Constantine Hellblazer by Garth Ennis. It is quality human stories about anxiety and hopelessness wrapped in an occult detective setting. The art is really psychadelic too.