Translations?

I read Crime and Punishment and Notes from the underground.
What should be my next one?. I really enjoyed those two

>>8711895
leo tolstoy

>>8711895

The Idiot, then Demons, then The Brothers K.

Read his other things as you please. The Gambler is excellent.

>>8711895
Anything really

I read Brothers K as my first Russian book and fucking loved it. I can't imagine anyone going through the whole thing and not loving it, regardless of how much Russian lit they've read before

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>>8711868
For Dostoyevsky, Avsey for an English speaker's context of his words(the "spirit" of Dosto), revised Garnett for a "literary" approach. Both are excellent. Monas or revised Garnett for C&P.
P&V are literalists, which makes for an awkward translation for a non-russian reader who should be reading Russian anyway. Makes for better reading, but unfortunately less pretty books on the shelf

For Tolstoy, pic related

>>8711895

The Idiot, The Brothers K, and Demons. It really doesn't matter in which order, just read what interests you.

>>8712036
The Gambler is good, The Double is certainly underrated though. I liked The Double better.

>>8711868
Any modern translation is good. Hell, even Magarshack's (~1950's) translations are good.

>>8712448
Pic for ants?

>>8712479
are...are you not ants?
is this not 4chants?
shit my bad I thought I was somewhere else

Currently reading Brothers K (First Russian book) by Garnett and it might be my favorite book ever at this point (new to lit).

Just avoid P&V.

>>8711868
How come they don't have Bros K in this edition?

P&v

Their methodology is invaluable to the art of translation

>>8712796
Nothing wrong with P&V, and their end notes are very good.

>>8712540
Glad to hear you are enjoying it. Dost is one of the greatest authors of all time, definitely my favourite. Be sure to read Crime and Punishment after, as well as the other essentials.

>>8713383

Their end notes are shit.
P&V are shit.
P&V shills are shit.

>>8712863
Gr8 b8 m8

>>8711868
We really need one like we have for Dante and Homer

STOP FUCKING CONFUSING ME.

>P&V sucks.
>No P&V is the best translation.
>Nice meme m8.
>Nice b8 m8.

They are objectively the best translators for Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.

>best translation

When will this meme end?

>>8713739
P&V is literalist garbage and the only people who disagree are Russian linguists, Reddit newfaggot immigrants, and people who have only read P&V and never compared them to anything.

We have this thread every fucking week.
We post passages and comparisons every fucking week.

Ignat Avsey and revised Garnett for Brothers Karamazov, The Idiot, and Demons.
Sidney Monas and revised Garnett for Crime and Punishment.
McDuff and Magarshack are good.
P&V is only superior to those in the Russian/English linguistic study context because it's a transliteration of the words with an obtuse disregard for Dostoevsky's message and spirit.

The editions of Bros K that are undeniably superior and /lit/ approved are the Norton Critical(translated by Garnett, revised by McReynolds, then revised again by Oddo) and the Oxford World's Classics(translated by Avsey and retitled as The Karamazov Brothers because he was obsessive about English context)

P&V is acceptable for Tolstoy, but not as much as Maude or the other whose name I forget.

Unbelievable that I can do this off the top of my head at this point. We need a damn chart.

>>8713739

Objectively not.

https://www.scribd.com/document/40906160/The-Pevearsion-of-Russian-Literature

>>8713773

Even unrevised Garnett is better for Tolstoy then P&V. At least she can write a normal sentence.

>>8711868
just learn russian bro

>>8713773
I've read all the major translators and P&V is far from garbage. They may not be perfect, but they are perfectly acceptable.

What's David Magarshack's translation of Notes From Underground like? I prefer an older, more Anglican translation to Americanised ones.

>>8711868
Feeling those Lissitzkyesque spines.

>>8714941
They lack any aesthetic sense of prose. It's like watching a black and white movie when it could be in color. Yeah you still get pretty much the same experience but obviously a little color is better

>>8715293
Megashark is a respectable translator. His notes was good but awkward at times, though that could very well be Dostoevsky

Who's the best for War and Peace?

>>8713773
Every single fucking ebook of Avsey I download says Dostoyevsky / Garnett on the second page (right after the title), is this how it's supposed to be or am I getting meme'd here

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>>8713773
>We need a damn chart.

I can do this.

Just give me pointers, cobbled this up in 5 minutes, heading to work now.

I wish Vintage used other translations. Their paperbacks are always better quality than other publishers. I can't stand reading a 500+ page books on the small format that penguin and oxford offer. Nortons are a bit bigger but they shrink the font to save pages.

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>>8713739
>>8713739
>They are objectively the best translators for Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.

No fucking way. I once compared them to Garnett when reading Crime and Punishment -- even if Garnett gives the work an undue Victorian spin it is significantly more palatable than P&V which reads as very stilted and overly literal.

>>8715788

For Tolstoy, always start with the Maudes. For W&P, Ann Dunnigan is also very good

>>8713383

P&V are like a clunky mechanical Google translation, twice.

>>8713773
Obvious bait.

Garnett is the worst translator of all. Literally everyone says to stay away from Garnett unless you want your characters talking like monocled British gentlemen.

>>8716168

That anon clearly said 'revised Garnett' though which is a huge distinction

>>8716168
>not wanting your characters talking like monocled British gentlemen
get a load of this fucking pleb

>>8713773
Hmm, really makes me think.

I'm about to buy P&V W&P. Now i'm not sure.

Should I switch to Maude?

>>8716206

The best thing P&V do in their W&P is they preserve Tolstoy's deliberate word repetition. Just take that nugget of info and think about it while reading one of these >>8716041

>>8715299

>Megashark

fuck.
literally lol'd in the computer lab and now everyone is staring at me

>>8716168

>Garnett sucks because "monocled British gentlemen"

You know you're dealing with a very inexperienced reader whenever you encounter this meme

>>8716168
>your characters talking like monocled British gentlemen
Sounds like a good deal for me.

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>>8716247

He really is excellent and adds to the experience of the works he has translated. As with Garnett, a way with words that evokes the era of the original works (moreso than a modern take), but far more careful and diligent than her focus on quantity and speed.

>>8715901
REEEEEE Я IS NOT AN R. I don't know why but I always get triggered when people do that.

>>8712540
Avsey for Brothers K
Ready for C&P

>>8715842
If it says Garnett it's not Avsey

>>8716168
Garnett is the most "literary" translation. All of your favorite authors who claim that Dostoyevsky was their favorite author read Garnett. She brought Russian literature to the English speaking world and is the standard of comparison in judging translations. Sure it's a bit archaic, but so is most of everything else you're reading.

>>8715901
I'll reply to this in a bit, got some shit to do

>>8716763

I know, It's just part of the free 'soviet' font.

Nothing is final

P&V preserve the authors' (weird) habits better than most. If you dislike their Dostoevsky, that's because he was shit -- every other translator improves his work as its translated into English.

The Russians were, in general, not great prose stylists, yet /lit/ latches onto the translators that tend to smooth out their imperfections.

The real reason /lit/ has a hateboner for P&V is that they gained popularity on Oprah and are the most widely used Russian translations today. And so of course, for a board that prides itself on elitism and obscurantism, that simply cannot stand.

Whether or not you agree that P&V are the best, they certainly are not the monsters this board paints them to be.

>>8716878

They suck, it's clear that P&V tries to be more literarily but becomes stunted in its usage of vocabulary. McReynolds' flows a lot better and isn't so awkward.

Karamazov p.528

>P&V:

"The peasant's got his beard frozen!" Kolya cried loudly and pertly as he passed by him.
"Many have got their beards frozen," the peasant uttered calmly and sententiously in reply.
"Don't pick on him," Smurov remarked.
"It's all right, he won't be angry, he's a nice fellow. Good-bye, Matvey."
"Good-bye."
"Are you really Matvey?"
"I am. Didn't you know?"
"No, I just said it."
"Well, I declare. You must be one of them schoolboys."
"One of them schoolboys."
"And what, do they whip you?"
"Not really, so-so."

>McReynolds:

"That peasant's beard's frozen," Kolya cried in a loud provocative voice as he passed him.
"Lots of people's beards are frozen," the peasant replied, calmly and sententiously.
"Don't provoke him," observed Smurov.
"It's all right; he won't be cross; he's a nice fellow. Good-bye, Matvey."
"Is your name Matvey?"
"Yes. Didn't you know?"
"No, I didn't. It was a guess."
"You don't say so! You are a schoolboy, I suppose?"
"Yes."
"You get whipped, I expect?"
"Nothing to speak of, sometimes."

>>8717193

That last line in particular really seems to display P&V's failure to handle idiom adequately

>>8716878
>every other translator improves his work as its translated into English.
i'm all for this desu
if i'm gonna read a translation i've already reconciled myself to the fact that i'm not reading the author's original words, so i may as well read the best written thing in my own language that's available

>>8717193
Pure opinion, which /lit/ and other anti-P&V people can't seem to understand.

In my opinion, the P&V translation of your posted section flows better and keeps the informal speech.

>"Well, I declare. You must be one of them schoolboys."
>"And what, do they whip you?"
beats out
>"You don't say so! You are a schoolboy, I suppose?"
>"You get whipped, I expect?"

>>8717257
Without having read TBK, I can assume that the translation "Not really, so-so" hints at Kolya's discomfort with this part of the conversation, hence it being a very awkward thing to say. "Nothing to speak of, sometimes" is equally as strange a reply to "do you get whipped?", but it weirdly attempts to smooth out the awkwardness -- and I don't think that's the right thing to do.

But again, opinions.

>>8717285
i think "Nothing to speak of, sometimes." would work better with a semicolon

>>8713773
b-but the blurb on the book said I'd finally get the musical whole of Dostoevsky's original!

>>8715297
acceptale criticism but bad analogy

>>8715901
i'm not gonna get to this because I am drunk and also sad but I'll get a list of /lit/ Dostoevsky editions on Monday and make a thread about it

OP save yourself the headache, and I know it is a big decision since these books are long, but just go with a modern non-P&V translation, it will be fine.

Just learn Russian for the real experience. It's an easy language.

Just ordered the Maude and the P&V editions of W&P.

I have the Hogarth translation of Notes From Underground (and some other short stories). Is it any good?

For Notes I thought P&V was superior, especially the latter half but I haven't come across any of /lit/'s approved translations.

>>8716878

How can you say their prose isn't very good if you're reading a translation?

You will never understand or appreciate their rose unless you read it in its original language.

>>8719057

I read the McDuff translation of Notes. After I finished it, I looked up the P&V version to compare and McDuff's is a LOT better.

Even by the first sentence you can tell. P&V write that the underground man is a "wicked" man - in McDuff he's a "spiteful" man. It sounds way better IMO. The flow of the sentences is great too.

I have read P&V translations of TBK and Crime and Punishment. Both are good too. I can't speak for McDuff's ones but judging by my experience with Notes they would be really good. Will definitely pick up his ones when I re-read them.

>>8717859

I'll be there to make a chart.

A sexy chart.

>>8719071
McDuff's Crime and Punishment is solid, no complaints. He's translated some Tolstoy as well. I enjoyed his translation of The Cossacks.

>>8715901
Marian Schwartz for Oblomov and Anna Karenina

I never saw a problem with P&V's Karamazov. I admit that their dialogue might be a little strange and wooden to the average american/english reader.

>>8715901
Should list all recommended translations for each work and give a short description of the differences/pros/cons for each
You'd have to reformat it from what it is now, but it'd be a lot more informative

>>8719908
Someone else make the text I make the graphic.

>>8719758
Noted.

>>8720030
I was going to say this>>8719908.
I'm doing the text it has explanations behind the reasoning so you'll have to reformat the usual chart style

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OP stopping in here, something along the lines of the Dante chart would be fantastic.

Currently reading Notes translated by Wilks - don't have anything to compare it to, but it seems fine.

Thanks for the opinions! Will definitely consider all options, and hopefully we get a chart up soon that will help stop threads like this!

>>8720058
No problem.
I just threw it out there to get things moving.

>>8720061
That's may be a bit too text heavy to include all the staple Russians.

That's more suited to a single work or single author.

>>8720157
I'm only doing Dostoyevsky btw.
I don't know enough about the other authors' translations, there are other anons that know much more than me

What's the best translation for The Death of Ivan Ilyich?

y'all must be fucking with me.

Garnett is the translator of Wordsworth

is this just my publisher elitism or is this actually quality?

>>8720970

Garnett is public domain
You could print out her translations on wallpaper or car wraps and sell them with no copyright repercussions

Can I use Rosemary Edmunds for W&P or anything else

>>8721555
Maude.

>>8717193
>No, I just said it.
>Well, I declare.
>Not really, so-so.

I'm but a lowly ESL but don't these sound a bit stilted, if not autistic? I find them clumsy and ugly.

Would it be easier to find a definite opinion on translations or learn russian?

>>8715901
Good effort OP. I hope this chart gets completed soon.

>>8722488
At least with the latter you have the hope of reaching a point where you can say: Yep, looks like I'm pretty much done. The debate though is endless. Also, if you manage to read the originals, you can then join said debate from a more authoritative position and then get even more pissed off when you get called a retard, faggot or pseud.

>>8724211
Gonna post it later tonight when im at school. I'm west coast so it might be kind of late for anyone outside my time zone

>>8724228
No worries I'll cobble the graphic together tomorrow anyway.

Should I keep the нeт picture, maybe too much meme?

>>8724277
Let's drop it. I'm not gonna trash PV, I'm just gonna clarify their methodology and its relative usefulness as a Russian transliteration and why we stay away from their stuff

>>8711868
Russian History teacher is making us read "The Compromise". Is it good?

He seems to have good taste as we read "Ivan Denisovich" and "Behind the Urals"
(We read these books to complement the text and his lectures)

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I have a copy of Andrew McAndrew's translation of Brothers Karamazov, how is it?

>>8724346

MacAndrew is a fine translation for Karamazov. In terms of the letter vs the spirit of the source material, he's looser with the former and faithful to the latter; basically he's the polar opposite of P&V.
(One anecdote: regarding the song with the averted off-color rhyme in Bk VIII Ch 8 'Delirium', MacAndrew commits fully by dropping an implied c-bomb. Which reminds me of something about McDuff's translation, and of Anthony Briggs' War and Peace.)

>>8724346
I read it and enjoyed it thoroughly.