Plato's cave

>>8625631

Google.

>>8625631
It's about the nature of reality.
How everything takes its root from a spiritual plane. The material world is merely a shadow of that spiritual realm, perfect and intemporal.

Of course you there are also more "down to earth" explanation, aka pretty much the majority of sci-fi books from the 20th century, but it's about the spiritual nature of reality, really.

Seemed to me to just be an elaborate "darkness (ignorance) to light (knowledge)" metaphor.

It's a consignment shop

>>8625634
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+does+anon+think+of+it

File: žižek.gif (317KB, 476x400px) Image search: [Google]

317KB, 476x400px

It's about seeing behind the ideology.

>>8625631
good metaphor but in the vein of >>8625636 I hate hearing about it because it is so widely misused when it was supposed to illustrate his world of forms.

>>8625675

>zizek doing voodoo

Has Philosophy gone too far?

>>8625631
beautiful allegory.

we are reminded that those who have seen the day are obliged to descend into the darkness to free those blind ones who once ridiculed the seeker.
reminds me of the bodhisattva vow, which IMO is one of the noblest religious conceptions I've ever encountered

>>8625675
>implying you can ever escape ideology except by a different ideology
Mein Gott.

>>8625733
You may not escape from ideology, but you may escape from thinking that what you believe is not an ideology, which is more on point.

>>8625631

I'm interested in the subjectivity of the people parading the forms. I haven't read it in a while, but as I recall Plato's original account of the allegory does not necessarily imply these people; it rather seems that the objects parade before the fire of their own accord. All the better; what is that subjectivity? How does it fit into the matrix of the cave allegory as a whole? It seems to me that focusing attention on this middle state between the prisoners and the emancipated philosophers could unravel something like an ancient greek Ideologiekritik

>>8625631
its about how philosophers are the only ones fit to be kings. just that. if u disagree ur a pleb.

It's about the difference between reality as such and reality as we perceive it.

Everything we see, hear, touch, smell is as a shadow cast on the inner walls of our skulls by the light of the fire of true being, which, bound as we are bodily in chains remains out of sight.

What we see is not what is.
We see a shadow
And never imagine how trapped we are

>>8625780
How is the fire more 'true' than the shadows?

>>8625806
Do you not understand the allegory? Go read it again.

>>8625816

no friend, i think he understands it quite well. i think you need to go read hegel. the allegory of the cave befuddles us by making us mistakenly think we can step outside of history. the closest we can really get to "reality" is the reality of the appearance.

>>8625780
No. It's about representation. You are chain to a wall and having a civil conversation with the guy next to you, who is also chained, about the shadows you see. Then there's this nigga to the left of you that interrupts and tells you he knows what those shadows are even though he is clearly as chained as you are. Why then should you believe him?
The answer is prediction. If the guy can make accurate prediction about what the next shadow will appear to be like, you should somewhat believe him.

>>8625821
What appearance? Appearances disappear all the time. It is as Heraklitus said, "one never steps into the same river twice." What is beyond appearance? That is the aim of philosophy to my mind.

Anons, I'll derail thread a bit.

When I show you a picture of someone, which is obviously not this someone in person, am I lying to you? I saw the other day a toy dog that looks so much like an ordinary dog that you can be empathetic about it. I guess you can also kick it and it wouldn't cry or attack you, so I wonder if kids that play with that sort of thing may have trouble dealing with the real thing later on. Is representation evil?

Recommend me books, /lit/

>>8625714
*Hegelian wizardry

File: hegel.jpg (116KB, 600x480px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 600x480px

>>8625884
Here we put Plato's Cave allegory in practice. Everybody ready?

What the ideologue wants you to believe by keeping you inside the cave:
>When I show you a picture of someone, which is obviously not this someone in person, am I lying to you? I saw the other day a toy dog that looks so much like an ordinary dog that you can be empathetic about it. I guess you can also kick it and it wouldn't cry or attack you, so I wonder if kids that play with that sort of thing may have trouble dealing with the real thing later on. Is representation evil?

The sunlight, meaning the truthful message that the ideologue is trying to prevent you from reaching:
>Recommend me books, /lit/

Don't worry, anon, kids can tell fiction from reality better than you do.

Unlike them, you're not ready to leave Plato's Cave. Yet.

>>8625884
>is representation evil?

No. Not evil. Just relative.

It's about living in the matrix, a movie starring Keanu Reaves as Neo.

File: 0338627ccf2b6f98563b266f9c71be1c4ae10cf0665ffc596912887acf7f2f3a.png (938KB, 994x841px) Image search: [Google]

938KB, 994x841px

An allegory for /pol/ to red pill the sheep. Plato was the original fashy goy.

>>8625631
Plato completely missing the point and crippling western philosophy for over 2000 years.

>>8625962
it's a metaphor of zog
who do you think those robed people who fool the cave dwellers are?

>>8625946
I'm not saying representation is evil, I'm asking you.

>>8625665
I think that's Plato's Closet, m9

>>8625631
Imagine people who disagree with you are a bunch of troglodytes that know nothing of the real world.

>>8625966
This, fuck him.

allegory for dropping L

>>8625884

>Is representation evil?

It has the potential to be. Read book X of the Republic. Plato discusses this question in terms of whether art should be allowed in the state or not. It's a pretty contentious issue in contemporary scholarship whether he is being ironic or not.

>>8625631
I absolutely hate the fact that in that image they put people holding the things that makes the shadows, it makes the theory sound less like metaphysics and more like a shitty conspiracy theory.

>>8625631
I think that picture does it some injustice as a thought piece. It's about perception, in my opinion.

Just because you (/we, the readers) see the shadow on the wall as distorted doesn't mean the viewers in the piece see it that way. Distortion is all based on what we believe to be normal. So to say that the viewers of the shadows in the piece see distortion in the cave is high-handed and pretty narcissistic.

File: n_1292657351648.jpg (76KB, 512x384px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 512x384px

>>8625821
>historicism

It's about Plato's unfalsifiable claim that philosophers are special snowflakes that should rule over everyone because they spend time musing about WHOA DUDE things instead of being productive and useful.
Philosophy in a nutshell if you will

File: stupid_ugly_stem_faggot.jpg (5KB, 225x225px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 225x225px

>>8626487

>yfw the platonic theory of mathematics is still widely accepted to this day
>yfw western civilization is literally built entirely upon philosophy
>yfw you're too fucking stupid to realize that philosophy cannot be as goal-oriented as autistic stem games because its revelations are too visionary and earth-shattering to fit into a STEM-based capitalist-drone narrative

Stupid nerd.

>>8626524
>yfw western civilization is literally built entirely upon philosophy
Can you be any more ignorant? Plato was literally unknown to the western world until late medieval

>>8626542

>Who was Aristotle

>>8626593
Someone who dismissed the theory of forms as utter nonsense

>>8626601

Yes.

What was his profession?

>>8625631
Read the book and you'll know.

But basically, it is about ignorance and knowledge, the pattern of progression from one stage of ignorance into lesser states of it (something he elaborates on eventually), and the impossibilities of communicating higher realities with those too far away from self-realization of these truths to grasp them.

This perpetual pattern of moving from ignorance into knowledge is all tied to his larger themes of Justice and The Good.

>>8625636
You missed his point. You're discussing his aspects of his worldview, not the point of the cave allegory.

>>8626487
You don't understand the world around you. You don't understand science. You don't understand man.

You are a prime example of why the Philosopher King is needed.

>>8626639

He was a scientist, his biology is the standard to this day in many classrooms.

>>8625962
that guy likes himself a little more than he should.

>>8625962
WE

were

File: 61988-050-78C6BEB5.jpg (320KB, 1173x1600px) Image search: [Google]

320KB, 1173x1600px

>>8625855
>>8626427


>metaphysics

>>8625636
So, gnosticism?

>>8627494
gnosticism has one of its roots in platonism after all

>>8625962
Fuck, to be that delusional. HOLY FUCK.

>>8626336
>contentious issue in contemporary scholarship

....Wtf? No, it isn't.

>>8625631
"Next," I said, "make an image of our nature as it involves education and the lack of it, by likening it to a condition such as the following..."

The allegory, by Socrates's own account seems to be an image of how we're educated in the city. Whoever said "ideology" was being glib, but isn't quite wrong about that. It's much moreso about that than about the forms or about epistemology in a broader sense.

>>8625665
VERY underrated post. I saw what you did there and it made me smile. Thanks anon

>>8628087
W R O N G
R
O
N
G

Butt sex metaphor.

>>8625631
Education

File: strauss the bauss.png (34KB, 853x543px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 853x543px

>>8628145
I don't think he is.

File: The Cave.jpg (129KB, 1182x893px) Image search: [Google]

129KB, 1182x893px

Work Done Within The Ajna Center
Then Work Done Within The Head Center
The Crown Chakra
The Interplay Between These Two Centers
Brings A Third Center Into Being
The Heart Of Hearts
The Cave
Plato's Cave
Merlin's Cave

youtu.be/7MJZLuwwX9E

File: EP Tunnel.jpg (59KB, 750x498px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 750x498px

>>8628221
>The Cave

youtu.be/7MJZLuwwX9E?t=1992

File: Watching The Throne.jpg (142KB, 1107x700px) Image search: [Google]

142KB, 1107x700px

>>8628221
>The Crown Chakra

So Much Going On Inside My Head

youtu.be/ZiNX0BYeQT4

File: 4plato.png (676KB, 693x720px) Image search: [Google]

676KB, 693x720px

>ywn be Plato's slave sex boy
>ywn travel to Siracusa to overthrow a decadent ruler and implement a new form of government

to live is to suffer

>>8626601
Plato was not literally fucking unknown. Platonism was accessible through Aristotle's descriptions and especially the Neoplatonists/Augustine. There were plenty of Western medieval Platonists, in the sense that they allied closer to Plato than Aristotle regarding the Forms/Universals, before Plato's works actually arrived in translation.

>>8628178
If only your thoughts could alter reality. Since they can't, you're both

W R O N G
R
O
N
G

I think it is about going against the herd, and how it is difficult to do so when the herd is wrong but it is your duty to do so and to bring others up with you.
Also ties into th eubermensch idea of bringing others up with you when you attempt your ascent into higher ideals/forms.

>>8628145
>>8628309
Bullshit.

it is one of the main illusions to keep people believing there is such a thing as 'reality' that is out there and which can be separate from the observer.

File: heil.jpg (118KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 480x640px

an elegant metaphor for how the brain works.

File: Plato, Socrates, and the Dialogues Prof. Sugrue-Philosophy & Intellectual History.jpg (9KB, 172x159px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 172x159px

Ideas that can change lives and reveal the world in new ways to the true student

thegreatcourses.com/courses/plato-socrates-and-the-dialogues.html

Moby Dick is about a lot more than whales, and Socratic philosophy is about a lot more than a wise man walking around saying enigmatic, sometimes ironic things

Professor Sugrue taught at Princeton University

Professor Sugrue takes interpretation of the Dialogues to a new place. It is almost as if these characters were his intimates and he is reporting events as he witnessed them. This is truly excellent work

Though he never wrote down his thoughts, he had a brilliant pupil in Plato, who immortalized his teacher's legacy in 35 timeless dialogues that laid the philosophical basis for Western civilization. In fact Alfred North Whitehead once famously remarked, all of philosophy is but a footnote to Plato

The dialogues share some general characteristics:

They are not a soliloquy, but rather a discussion.
They are not between equals (there is a teacher-student relationship).
Plato himself never speaks.
Each dialogue is a work of art, but all, taken together, constitute one huge artwork.
At the center of the form is irony.
The dialogues are very clearly intended to be a teaching tool.
Dr. Sugrue shows how each dialogue breathes with the feeling, the tension, and even the humor of great theater.

On a human level, they testify not only to the greatness of Plato's gifts, but to the loyalty, friendship, and dauntless love of learning that he shared with his beloved master.

A New Kind of Hero

https://youtu.be/mx5qg3dijnU

>>8629246
no, an elegant metaphor to make it work.

>>8629258
>On a human level, they testify not only to the greatness of Plato's gifts, but to the loyalty, friendship, and dauntless love of learning that he shared with his beloved master.

AND DICK

>>8625962
I guess you could substitute /pol/-speak for just about anything in this picture. If you thing about it the part where sun hurts the eye of the people whom you've tried to rescue from the save is basically "plebs aren't hardcore enough to embrace by ideology".

>>8625665
Extremely underrated post