Why do you lads meme on this guy so hard? He seems pretty reasonable.

>>8575375
because he can't turn left

Is this like hitch 2.0?

he wants me to punch him in the face

>>8575375

I agree with him that Islam is shittier than all the rest, but his autistic pursuit of a science-backed """objective""" morality is annoying.

He's also pushing a shitload of dumb podcasts lately.

>>8575381
but why male models?

File: meganboyle.png (363KB, 640x596px) Image search: [Google]

363KB, 640x596px

>it's a thought experiment maaan I don't care about this

Sam Harris is a fraud.

http://www.rhizzone.net/forum/topic/13771/

>>8575519
There are a lot of good critiques of Sam Harris. That is not one of them. Half of it is just un-sourced anecdotes and making fun of him for having rich parents.

>>8575527
Of course, but that one's fresh and it does have some points about his phd thesis. Do we really repeatedly have to go over Harris' failure to understand the is-ought gap, his fantasies of torturing and nuking muslims, his "debate" with Chomsky where he suddenly decides intentions matter etc?

>>8575519
>Sam Harris is a fraud
Stopped reading there
>>8575593
>is-ought
Oh, gag me with a spoon

>>8575519
fuck the regressive left seriously. it's impossible to argue with a regressive, they hate the west and reject enlightenment rationality. just like fundamentalists of any stripe, no wonder you love the islamofascists so much

>>8575519
>how dare this privileged white guy criticise Muslims for blowing themselves up!

Keque.

>>8576285
>regressive left
Could you define that term for me?

>>8576354
Not him but the batch of leftist ideas that cause liberty to decay, so censorship mostly. They are basically anti liberal

>>8576354
The 'we most stop people from offending browniers at all costs even if this means giving up freedom of speech' white guilt type of people.

>>8575407
but morality is based on treating people fairly and we can know how to treat people based on observable methods. it's really not that hard to understand. like, we know now because of science that homosexuality isn't wrong, but just based on the predicate of your whole argument I'm guessing that you don't agree with that. in which case we have no point arguing, because we're never going to convince each other if both our objectives in the debate is to win the debate.

>>8576416
So you want to limit their freedom of speech

>>8576420
Why do you think that?

>>8576354
Basically the Frankfurt school left, the guys who decided to abandon enlightenment values and replace them with shrill irrational shrieking. DAts RAcESt!

>>8575401
they're not very similar

>>8576468
Wow you really don't know what you're talking about

>>8576420

I personally would like for them to become self aware enough to realize that their entire belief system is based on emotional response and virtue signalling.

because our god said we should

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifpIw3EK7-A

>>8576517
Using virtue signaling in a sentence is virtue signaling to other posters who agree with you about virtue signalling

>>8575519
>Richard Dawkins built his atheism promotion out of his mediocre but well publicised science writing.
how is it mediocre? Some of his writing is fundamental and arguably the father of entire scholarly fields. what a pretentious article.
>sam harris is not a neurologist because I don't like him and I'm making assumptions about his motives about getting the Ph.d that he has
what a dumb article. horee shit

>>8576522

That makes no sense in the context of an anonymous forum.

>>8576532
You get attention, positive attention. >>8576532
>>8576532

>>8576468
Consider reading what they have to say before commenting on a literature board.

>>8575519
Wahh wah he's a privileged white male! I don't care about Sam Harris's logic or arguments! Leftists never argue with ideas, cause they always lose. So they attack the person. According to their critical theory, identity is more important than reason, which is always an oppressive tool of white male domination. Hence regressives are able to hold 2 contradictory ideas at once. The west is patriarchal but Muslims did nothing wrong cause it's their culture. Makes no sense? Then you might be a bigot

>>8576517
Woah you must be so rational and objective. We need more people like you, son. Real atheists who ditch feels for Science and rationality. If everyone could be as Rational as you are

File: thedrug.png (462KB, 680x564px) Image search: [Google]

462KB, 680x564px

>>8576532
bullshit. I basically use this site like 40% for approval alone.

>>8576538
did you make that post like that just because you wanted it to look like a penis?

>>8575519
Hmm I think I prefer the MPC takedown of Sam Harris.

why is it racist just ot say that islamic ideology is inherently fucked up

>>8576468
This is so uninformed it phsycially pained me. I have a concussion and an STI now.

>>8575375
Sam Harris is literally a Bush-tier neocon propagandist who tries to make imperialism attractive to liberals by appealing to their inherent distrust of religion and dressing up state terrorism and war profiteering as liberation for masses of people duped by superstition.

Chomsky wrecks him hard if you're legitimately interested in seeing why so many leftists think of SH as a charlatan.

File: ben bin aflik.jpg (37KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 1280x720px

>>8576688
because most muslims are non-white

>>8575375
because he's popular and his arguments are put clearly enough for large numbers of people to actually form opinions on what he thinks

>>8575427

Are you kidding? I literally just explained that.

Sidenote: that moment always makes me think of my sophomore year Modern Europe class in college. During the WWII segment of the course, the professor had an entire class dealing with the similarities and differences between Stalinist Communism and National Socialism; policies, rhetoric, cult of personality, the whole deal. Last five minutes of the class, when he opens it up for questions, this one mook raises his hand and asks, as if making a poignant observation, "There seem to be a lot of similarities between Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. Why is that?"

And the professor's response was just a flabbergasted, "That's what we just spent the entire period discussing."

>>8576418
>morality is about being fair
retard

>>8576418
>we know now because of science that homosexuality isn't wrong
How do you arrive at this?

>>8576528
Selfish Gene is actually kind of annoying now if you're in that area. The move to -omes makes taking of a single gene a bit weird if anything.

And vanity PhDs are a real thing, although more often you'd find them in Humanities subjects. There are some troublesome parts to his PhD work as well, but I think he's not alone there, we're probably going to see that quite a few have more than troubling work in the field as a whole (in fact we already have).

>>8576726
>"That's what we just spent the entire period discussing."
I think a lot of people have viewed me as that mook before, and in some sense there's what Edward De Bono described as "realizing peas roll" (you finally REALLY become aware of something in front of you the whole time). Although my background is not in such subjects (and more than a few times I've learnt later that the flabbergasted prof was fundamentally wrong about something or other).

His scientism is meme-tier

His polemics on Islam are much needed in an overly cucked society, however.

>>8575519
>As someone who, unlike Sam, regularly talks to people of Muslim faith, I find his insights pretty surprising. Little did I know that hidden behind the façade of everyday life was a seething, roiling mass of black hatred for me and everything I stand for.

m8, you just got taqqiya'ed

>>8575519
typical sjw muh but, but I haev muslim friends and they are good people! you don't know shit about statistics or rational decision making. Islam is by definition a totalitarian political ideology incompatible with liberty or even rational thought

File: 1474821764515.jpg (36KB, 500x529px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 500x529px

>>8576978
this

>>8577022
2bfair i agree with half of these

>>8575375
http://www.voxday.net/mart/TIA_free.pdf

because he's inconsistent as all hell

the elliot rodger ones?

>>8576268
>>8576285
>>8576594
>>8576992
Would you kindly fuck off back to your containment board? Your comments show no grasp of politics, religion, history, or philosophy and are the rhetorical equivalent of "no u"

>>8577056
4chan aint your safe space bro. its the fucking cesspool of the internet, home to the baddest edgetrolls in cyberspace. we don't give a fuck about your feelings..This is not a safe space, this is the Danger Zone. Deal with the truth... or fuck off

>>8577056
>spams political blogposts
>please no bully stay away pol

jog on cunt

>>8577068
You definitely showed that legressive Marxist Frankfurt cuck. Have an upvote.

>>8577056
someone just got TRIGGERED haha

>>8577056
wtf i love hillary now

#imwithher

>>8576538

You don't know who is posting or not posting, the only people who definitively post for positive attention are tripfags.

I for one specifically prefer anonymity because it puts a huge damper on virtue signalling and attention seeking behavior typically found on standard forums.

>>8577085
Hillary and same Harris are on the same page about nuking the middle east and shit. it's funny how alt-rigthers can claim there's a massive jewish conspiracy and still support Israel, cause they are the good kind of Jews. Israel is the most Rational Country on Earth.

>>8577088
I prefer it because I can say whatever the fuck I want and face no repercussions for it in the eyes of the community

>>8577095
The real alt-righters hate Israel actually. Only the cucks defend it.

>>8577095
you're thinking of stormfags like >>8577100

it'd be better if all the jews were just sent back to israel

>>8577088
yeah, on basically any other forum someone as rational as yourself would get banned on sight for Racism. Anonimity kills PC and paves the way for truly rational discourse. that's why 4chan has taught me a lot of truths. The cucks may shriek and pull their hair, but here we can see nobody gives a shit, its just irrational nonsense.

File: boss chomsky.jpg (31KB, 396x594px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 396x594px

>He seems pretty reasonable.
>argues that its alright to commit mass murder if your intentions were good and it was unintentional
>refuses to discuss the facts and instead tries to substitute a "what if scenario" he has concocted to support his thesis

File: 1475266597725.jpg (26KB, 600x375px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 600x375px

>>8577068
>>8577070
>>8577074
>>8577085

>>8576978
>>As someone who, unlike Sam, regularly talks to people of Muslim faith, I find his insights pretty surprising. Little did I know that hidden behind the façade of everyday life was a seething, roiling mass of black hatred for me and everything I stand for.

Ask them if they think, in an ideal Islamic state, a person should be killed for apostasy.

Then ask them if they would like your country to become an Islamic state.

>>8577137
To be fair, that person probably talks to nice college Muslims who've internalized liberal Christian values, so they might not believe those thigns

>>8577154
there's an interesting dynamic at play there. Islamism has a great appeal to STEM beta males obsessed with muh rationality. It's almost like the middle eastern version of libertarianism.

>>8576416
Not the same guy, but I don't see how you that impression. Being against stifling free speech doesn't make you anti-free speech. Unless you think that literally everything, including censorship and violence, are "speech."

>>8576420
>>8577179
Replied to the wrong post.

Islam is a religion of peace.

File: uu.png (241KB, 440x458px) Image search: [Google]

241KB, 440x458px

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of-discourse
Who was in the right here?

>>8577258
>muh discourse

harris combines the absolute worst things about pedantic liberals, fedora tipping atheists, neocon warmongers and alt-right crusaders

>>8576618
What are you doing to my Hibiki?

>>8577117
>argues that its alright to commit mass murder if your intentions were good and it was unintentional
What are you talking about. Sam Harris criticizes Islam precisely because it makes good people commit mass murder with good intention.

>>8577614
Leave this board forever for recognizing whatever the fuck that is

>>8577728
Intending to murder people because you think it's good is not the same as intending to do good and as a consequence murdering people in Sam Harris land.

>>8577890
Well they're pretty obviously different. In the first one you're killing people just to kill them, while in the other you're killing them for presumably some other reason.

>>8577728
Right - he contradicts himself. Read his exchange with Noam Chomsky: basically justifies the US bombing of a chemical factory on bad intelligence because the intention of killing terrorists was good. Fucking moron.

>>8577925
"I murdered him to take his car." I did it for another reason so it's fine.

>>8577938
>because the intention of killing terrorists was good
imblying it's not

>>8577925
They're different up to a point. It's not like suicide bombers are going out thinking "killing people is an end in itself", while American politicians/Army officers etc etc aren't thinking "this military action is bound to have absolutely no casualties whatsoever"

I mean if anything it's the other way around to what Harris says each side does, suicide bombers want to strike terror into the hearts of infidels or whatever and people dying is really just a step along the way. But killing specific people (think Bin Laden) is considered an end in itself by the west.

>>8577950
Killing bin Laden was a political ploy by Obama. Remember how it happened just before the 2012 elections? It made him look good because he finished what Bush supposedly started.

>>8577960
I am unconvinced of your reasoning there bro.

>>8577975
Getting revenge for all those dead Americans elevates you to Hero status. Who doesn't want a Hero President?

>>8577975
Though in any case, I do think killing people for cynical political reasons is worse than killing them just for the hell of it.

>>8575519
Holy shit what an awful attempt at a takedown, whoever wrote this seems really bitter

a) Knockoff Ben Stiller

b) I have never wanted to not hit him in the face with a tire iron

c) He argues for the existence of objective morality because he thinks he's too smart for religion, but is also too insecure for nihilism

>>8575375
Because he's dumb

>Christianity is bad. Its fundamentally contradictions and flawed moraility are holding us back from progress in the future.
>My Neuroscience studies prove it. Buy my book to see why
>But Islam is worse.
>In fact its so much worse we have to basically wage a war against it and committ to insane jingoist behaviour.
>Despite the fact thats its basically the same shit i'm going to cherry pick Quran quotes and terroist attacks to make it seem like its imcompatible if not at war with the West
>Just like Chrsitnaity as I pointed out earlier. Only its way worse because despite what I said about Chrisanity, Islam's fantiscism hasn't been curtailed by the Reformation.
>What do you mean the Enlightenment and the Reformation aren't the same thing?
>What do you mean Christain terrorists ut out all that bullshit anyway and have a similiar perpencity
>What do you mean suicide bombings weren't a thing until the U.S. started fucking with Arabic countries?
>What do you mean there are more violent passages in the Bible?
>What do you mean its happening in Christain countries?
>Whats a "material condition"? What does that have to do with muh dogma?

>Look, its very simple. You can't risk safety. Obama is not doing enough about terrorism.
>Liberals don't understand the important place the U.S. is in to protect the whole world.
>But we need to protect ourselves. This is why we need to limit Islamic immgiration.
>Please ignore the fact that Obama has been a far bloodier war monger than Bush ever could hope to be, and right this second he's probably planning a dozen or so drone strikes.
>Please ignore the fact that 60% of Muslims live in Asian countries and I'm only proposing we limit immigration from and/or bomb the shit out of sand people
>Just listen to my podcast, it'll make sense.

>Chomsky just doesn't understand my keen intellect for geopolitics.
>He might have been studying this topic for 40 years but the fact that he even hints in a footnote to an interview that he did that killing thousands of innocent isn't the right thing to do makes him a dumby head who can't handle a good debate.
>The U.S. is a gentle giant that although occasionally missteps, it has good intentions.
Whoops, I didn't paraphrase that one

>Torture is unjustified
>Except in certain circumstances
>Decided by me
>Buy my book to learn more about morality

File: sam-harris-quote-kill-people-for-ideas.jpg (16KB, 600x337px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 600x337px

>>8578206
>The thing with Abrahamic religions is that its too dogmatic. They focus more of procedure than true spirituality.
>The only true religions are the Eastern ones like Buddhism as they touch the core of life lessons
>As long as you strip out all the theories, procedures, dogma, metaphysics, completely miss the point of the fourth noble truth, ignore the surrounding context which the religions are being taught and ignore the fact that no one has every practiced my particular interpretation of Buddhism which is indistinguishable from New Age bullshit
>Just focus on the meditation stuff, now thats science
>What do you mean Buddhists and Hindus commit acts of terrorism and religious violence? Sometimes being more bloody than Islamic terrorism?
>What do you mean they have holy wars?
>What do you mean Hindus and some Buddhists have a strict hierarchical structure and dogmatic adherence to karma?
>What do you mean Krishna basically commanded Arjuna to kill his friends and family to fulfill his dharma?
>What do you mean India has the highest rate of honour killings in the world?
>Look, its very simple. Buy my book, I don't gotta explain shit.

Honestly, I don't see how he isn't just an Evola-esque pol/ack (other than the fact that he likes Israel for no reason other than they are "under attack")

File: chomsky_harris-blue-690x460.jpg (45KB, 690x460px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 690x460px

>>8578208
No but i'm totes a rational atheists science man guys! Just don't disagree with me or be black

>>8576775
>And vanity PhDs are a real thing, although more often you'd find them in Humanities subjects.
But Harris Ph.D was done with a legitimate up-to-par thesis

I like whenever sam makes an analogy it gets taken out of context. it's like the trolley problem inventor getting accused of promoting death by train

File: saythattomyfacefaggot.jpg (33KB, 630x255px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 630x255px

>>8578208

>>8576711
Leftists don't care about science or facts. It's a negative for them, see how they throw around the word 'scientism'. Science doesn't vibe with their utopian fantasy world, so they just reject the discoveries of people like Harris cause muh white people are teh evulz mooslims did nothing wrong america deserved 9/11

>>8575375
I liked his movies tbqh.

File: feels-reals-julius-evola-lv-39-aryan-mage-it-says-803698.png (94KB, 500x591px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 500x591px

>>8578659
Yeah tis totally the leftists that are throwing that shit around. Not the creationists or the reactionaries

>>8576418

how did science prove homosexuality is not wrong?
science doesnt even know if it is genetic, if it is hormonal, if it is a brain disorder or psychological.

Science had very little to do with Homosexuality becoming accepted these last decades.

>>8575519
That made me check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60
Hollywood actors are an interesting bunch for sure.


Anyway, Sammy has his problems (objective/science based morality...), but he's still a net positive.
Most of the hate is from intellectual dick wavers and anti-fedora circle-jerks.

>>8578208
You don't unironically think any other religious violence lives up the shitshow that is Islam, do you?

>>8578679
The leftists are allied with the creationists and reactionaries as long as they're brown.

File: Kant intensifies.png (597KB, 764x890px) Image search: [Google]

597KB, 764x890px

>Implying Islam isn't objectively the worst religion
>Implying Muslims aren't inherently scummy people
>Implying it isn't totally acceptable to glass the entire Middle East (Israel included) and all of Africa north of South Africa

>>8579242
This, this, and this.

>>8575519
>Richard Dawkins built his atheism promotion out of his mediocre but well publicised science writing

Ha!

>>8579242
This. Islam is an exceptional world historical threat that must be destroyed to save enlightened liberal values and prevent the new dark ages. You cannot compromise with Islam, it's not rational its a totalitarian genocidal ideology. That's what the regressive left doesn't understand. For them Islam is just another 'oppressed' identity.

>>8576386
>academia is mostly left
>academics like media criticism
>criticism is censorship durr hurr

>>8578228
With the help of other people with it not being clear how much of it was done by him. After he acquired his Ph.D I don't think he ever did anything peer reviewed again.

>>8579456
>not wanting to pre-emptively destroy entire Islamic countries with nukes is regressive

Yeah, why don't retards like you and Sam "Night at the Museum" Harris just admit you're secular right wing neocons and ditch the liberal pretense entirely. Islam isn't some unified force like you make it out to be, they're centralized in a region of constant infighting that kills more Muslims than anyone else, Westerners lose a small percentage of that number to the occasional terrorist attack (which statistically has less chance of killing you than a car crash or some mundane domestic accident without a beard and scimitar) and the West goes nuts and signs away to faggots like you who use sensationalist bullshit to restrict liberties in the name of fighting Islam, just like you did with Communism.

>>8579492
t. Muhammad Mahmud Ahmed Tariq ibn Al Awlaki

File: 1475022866611.png (30KB, 657x527px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 657x527px

What's it called when you're a tolerant social democrat but you want to genocide all Muslims?

>>8579596
Common sense.

>>8578228
>legitimate up-to-par thesis
I don't think I've ever heard that exact combination of words before you know.

Anyway, a thesis may be up-to-par but turn out to be illegitimate. There's just (sort of just, like a few years, it's at the stage of just about recovered now) been a whole issue in bioinformatics with a massive amount of published work around the mid 00s in proteomics being trash. That was down to poor statistical and quantitative methods p much. There have been similar problems in neuroscience especially with MRI research, although it seems to me like there's been way more and the reaction to correcting them have been poor. If the vast majority of people in the subject area are intent on publishing total shit then total shit PhDs are up-to-par but illegitimate.

And as that other anon said by and large the bits with any possible academic merit seem to have been done by other people, Harris just wrote some waffle about how God is the tooth fairy,

>>8575407

>Free Will doesn't exist
>But everyone should strive to choose to be good

Pure retardation at its finest.

>>8580032
>determinism is fatalism

top pleb

Free will does exist. That's one of the few thigns he's wrong about.

>>8580055
Please elaborate.

>>8580063
There are multiple possible courses of action one can take, and it is the force of the will that allows one to choose.

To be reasonable is to be dogmatic.

Sam Harris is a vein of Heretic-Christian that spiritualizes phenomena to sell his books. He's a newage moron also; proud oriental vs. savage westerner

>>8580077
>There are multiple possible courses of action one can take
Incompatible with the laws of physics, sorry senpai.

>>8580087
How is it incompatible?

>>8580042

>Implying fatalism isn't determinism taken to its logical conclusion.

top pleb

>>8580091
How is it compatible? Where do you see room for magic?

>>8580032
>implying he could say otherwise

>>8580157
Why is it "magic"?

>>8580264
In the sense that it is supernatural if it falls outside causation. You would have to be an unmoved mover to make a free choice, like a god.

>>8579416
Richard Dawkins Owes his fame to his pop sci writing, the selfish gene theory was Bill Hamilton's and George Price's idea. Dawkins just popularized it

>>8580087
>Incompatible with the laws of physics, sorry senpai.

then so much worse for the laws

humans came up with the laws to begin with, to describe and predict the contents of human experience

you seem to be starting from

objective world with immutable laws -> must somehow fit human free will within this world

forgetting the objective world is something humans have posited in the first place, along with it's laws. the objective world and laws of physics did not pre-exist humans making up the concept

>>8580346
Why is that inherently a problem? You're just assuming it's wrong because you choose to believe in determinism.

>>8580966
>>8580091
>>8580087
>>8580077
>>8580063
>>8580055

Kids, free will exists from the perspective of a consciousness embedded in a causal web, but not from the perspective of one capable of observing the entirety of that causal web.

Your ability to posit the existence of an extra-causal observer doesn't mean you can pretend that you're incapable of making choices. Additionally, your perceived ability to make choices does not mean that the aforementioned observer would consider you to have free will.

Now go to your rooms.

>>8575375
hes an idiot who thinks humans can be rational and shows butthurt fustration in all his books that verbatim disprove his pants on head retarded assertion of humans can think logically and should

>>8580992
>but not from the perspective of one capable of observing the entirety of that causal web.
Wrong. Even if you're aware of all possible futures, you don't necessarily know which ones will obtain. Now quit trying to be a condescending cunt when you say retarded shit; it just makes you look especially retarded.

>>8581018

>all possible futures

An external observer doesn't see the universe as a shifting morass of possibilities, they see the universe, from beginning to end, as a static structure.

>>8581039
And in the context of there being multiple possibilities, such a being cannot exist/makes no sense.

And yes, I'm basically saying that if free will exists, then an omniscient God cannot.

>>8581042

Not inside of the universe, no. It can't be part of the causal web, because it wouldn't experience time (or the same sort of time) in the way we do. You and I perceive multiple possibilities because we cannot be aware of the entire state of the universe at any given moment, and neither can any other thing that's part of the universe.

>>8575375

He hates Islam. That's why /lit/ has an issue with him.

>>8579456

Yeah, well, I know a few cool muslims who are quite liberal. So that means Islam is mostly that.
Get bent, Drumpf.

>>8581081
But, if we're talking about actual possibilities that do exist (and I'm quite certain they do), and not simply the illusion of possibility, then such a being couldn't even exist outside of the "universe". And if the universe isn't deterministic, then even knowing the entire state of the universe at any given moment won't allow you to predict the future.

File: schrocc.jpg (240KB, 700x864px) Image search: [Google]

240KB, 700x864px

>>8577949
>>8579242
>>8579404
>>8579456
glass the "region of religious peace and medieval golden age," just make sure you put Sam Harris there before you do it

>>8581146

If you know the exact structure of the universe at a given instant, or a "slice" of the universe's 4D structure, then you can predict the subsequent state by calculating which interactions are set to take place, what directions all the particles are going in, and so on.

Something which exists inside the universe cannot do or know these things, for much the same reason that a computer cannot perfectly simulate itself. We see multiple paths, not just one, because we're physically unable to process the information necessary to identify the one path, or even construct something that can.

>>8577117
>>refuses to discuss the facts and instead tries to substitute a "what if scenario" he has concocted to support his thesis

thats pretty much all moral philosophy

File: 1462620484624.jpg (3KB, 225x224px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 225x224px

>>8576726
shut up you fucking kulak I'll kill you I swear to josef's life.

File: download.jpg (9KB, 276x183px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 276x183px

>>8579242
But most Muslims live in Asian countries

>>8581186
>If you know the exact structure of the universe at a given instant, or a "slice" of the universe's 4D structure, then you can predict the subsequent state by calculating which interactions are set to take place, what directions all the particles are going in, and so on.
But that's just assuming the universe behaves in a particular way, IE that it is deterministic. It could be that the universe does not behave in that way, and if I'm correct, then it cannot.

>We see multiple paths, not just one, because we're physically unable to process the information necessary to identify the one path, or even construct something that can.
That's not the only reason we see them. We also see them because we can, by the power of will, take one potential course of action, as opposed to another. Both possible courses of action have a positive ontological status, IE they're both "universes" that exist in some sense. It happens that only one of those "universes" obtains, but the other still exists as an unobtained former possibility.

>>8579456

You guys in this thread should listen to some of Maajid Nawaz's interviews. He's a reformed Islamist who started a foundation to combat Islamism. I don't agree with everything he has to say, but if every Muslim was like this man, there'd be no issue.

The biggest issue I have with him is that, though he acknowledges and advocates for the defeat of Jihadism, Islamism, and the reform of non-Islamist conservative Islam, he doesn't seem to grasp just hpw difficult reform is when the holy text of the religion brooks no innovation and defines itself as the immutable divine word of God.

File: br8.png (627KB, 800x409px) Image search: [Google]

627KB, 800x409px

>>8579182
I do until someone proves me wrong
Mild gore pic related

Fuck harris

>>8579182
yes other religions do, in 1502

File: maxresdefault.jpg (57KB, 1350x752px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 1350x752px

>>8579186
I've never heard a Muslim say the word scientism, only the Christians who are worried about their position in society being compromised

Did you attend the 100 million dollar Noah's ark exhibit that "scientifically" proves the story of Genesis? Man I love how moderate the West is

File: pr070525biii.gif (5KB, 371x301px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 371x301px

>>8581239
>just hpw difficult reform is when the holy text of the religion brooks no innovation and defines itself as the immutable divine word of God
Are you implying that no other scriptural text is taken as the literal word of God?

If so, why would Islam be so hard to "reform" when Christianity has already "reformed"?

I don't for the life of me understand these double standards people apply to Islam and clearly guys like Harris don't care

>>8581263
I think that (educated) people know Islam is just too young to be any different, both judaism and christianism had their colonization phases (in a sense, chrstianism still has some of that, only much less loud now)

>>8581257
evangelicals didnt defund the space program
king nigger did

>>8581207
Why do I keep forgetting that /lit/ doesn't read?

>>8581285
because you drink too much

>>8581273
Wouldn't the golden count as that though?
>young
Its like 2000 years old.

>>8581277
Which nigger?

File: king-obama-iii[1].jpg (41KB, 750x408px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 750x408px

>>8581294
Sir Obama of Loxley

>>8581307
>obama is a Muslim meme
Good old pol/

>>8581311
>Baroque Husserl Obunghole isn't a Muslim
Good old jews

>>8581311
....when did I say hes muslim?

also technically speaking, the only thing that "makes you a muslim" is saying a specific sentence in arabic, also supposedly all of us are just bad amnesiac muslims according to them

>>8576418
Morality is not "based on treating people fairly", morality is based on what you assign positive and negative value towards. Conceivably, this could be anything, making the whole thing completely subjective.

Harris doesn't understand this.

File: worst-muslim.jpg (59KB, 620x580px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 620x580px

>>8581327
Pic releated.

>>8581331
>when did I say hes muslim?
Are you this peson? >>8581277
If so you are implying king nigger is a Muslim. Otherwise you are supporting this point >>8581257 that Christians are anti-science

>is saying a specific sentence in arabic
The fuck are you talking about?

>>8581345
>He doesn't understand taqqiya

>>8581345
obama is most likely secular, if anything I was saying the westboro church doesnt decide government policy relating to science, politicians do

>>8581356
There's lying and then there's explicating doing things that will condemn you to hell and/or the rest of the country. What double agent purpose could legalizing gay marriage have? Or continue the bombings of Muslim countries?

>>8581358
But they advocate for many non-scientific things and as far as I am aware are the only people on the planet that will use the term "scienticism". Moreover if politicians can do more harm than Christians, where do the Muslims come in?

Sam Harris thinks can do no wrong so long as they enforce a jingoist philosophy of world affairs

>>8581400
muslim countries are countries where the religious fundamentalist run the government policy

church and state have separated in the west since the Republic of Venice

>>8581356
>He doesn't know how to spell taqiyya.

File: cropped-548x331_afghan_women_1970s_via_twitter.jpg (137KB, 822x497px) Image search: [Google]

137KB, 822x497px

>>8581405
This wasn't the case 40 years ago, and its not the case in Asian countries like Indonesia.

Also, wasn't Ted Cruize's whole platform based on him being some kind of Christian crusader?

And that doesn't really address why Muslims are worse than Christians

Pointing out the obvious about Islam makes you an sjw target. He showed that objective morality exists and can be proven with science, which endangers the philosopher's job security. He also writes clearly and to the point. This triggers postmodernist cucks who like reading obscurantist drivel devoid of substantive content.

>>8581417
that they managed to go back to acting like its the 15th century during the 20th?

File: sam-harris-03[1].jpg (17KB, 439x359px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 439x359px

>>8581449
>If an original picasso is down a hallway and your daughter is standing in front of you inside a burning building, you save the picasso and sell it for a $100 million and donate it to charity, because that will objectively have the potential to save waaay more people, youre an illogical witch burner if you disagree with me goyim

>>8581454
Death of Nasser and assassination of Al-Sadat changed a lot of things.

File: maxresdefault.jpg (157KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

157KB, 1920x1080px

>>8581449
>Pointing out the obvious
Sam Harris wouldn't know whats obvious if its was staring at him in the face

>>8581454
Ted Cruz wanted to

File: 220px-Qutb[1].jpg (13KB, 220x307px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 220x307px

>>8581484
hmmmmmmmm I wonder what kinda groups were associated with terrorist violence in the 1970s in muslim counties

i wonder if they had unhealthy obsessions with Islam by chance

>>8581489
and he got his shit pushed in by a real estate developer with a canceled reality TV show

>>8581496
>and he got his shit pushed in by a real estate developer with a canceled reality TV show
Yeah and thank fuck for that.

So how is the "east" or Islam inherently worse when you dodged a bullet?

>hmmmmmmmm I wonder what kinda groups were associated with terrorist violence in the 1970s in muslim counties
Governments, communists and capitalists, mostly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_1970

>>8581511
Then the 80's seemed to be torn apart by Sikhs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_1987

>>8581263

Have you read both the Bible and the Qur'an?

>>8581263
Salafists are actually the closest analogue to the reformation within Sunni Islam. In reality, Calvinism is less enlightened liberal rationalism and more eldritch horror, see John Edwards' sinners in the hands of an angry God for example . Anyone who uses that argument probably has a shit understanding of both Christian and Muslim history/theology.

>>8577056
no u

File: 11150824_785912571507195_4110078973862404364_n.jpg (127KB, 800x532px) Image search: [Google]

127KB, 800x532px

>>8576468
the frankfurt school left is not antiwestern nor antiliberal and also not any kind of post-modern. Adorno would instantly call the police when his students started to make some infantil riots in his university, horkheimer later in his life was openly supporting civilized western nations and would never doubt that the western democracy is the most freedom providing society in history and the communist projects failed. they were critics of ideology and were never supporting "identity politics". the postmodern regressive left often cities adorno without understanding him, he was a radical enlightener, not a opponent of enlightement (which is why the famous book is called "Dialektik der Aufklärung" and not Kritik der Aufklärung). A real left in the tradition of critical theory can be found in Germany, also known as the "anti-germans" who today are the only leftist voice against islamism, postmodern relativism and socialist states (and are therefore hated by the rest of the leftist scene)

Holy shit this whole thread is like undergrad all over again. No one reads or sites the text and every one has half an opinion they picked up from the young Turks or info wars. Come on /lit/ you are better than this

File: image.jpg (22KB, 270x187px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 270x187px

>>8582382
>anti-Germans
lol

>>8581516
>More than half of these attacks were carried out by the LTTE
I shiggy diggy doo

>>8581263
hurr durr people are indoctrinated in college so there be is no god1!!!!!!!

>>8581400
Scientism is a real thing, it's an dogmatic ideology that you are clearly caught up into.

Rejecting this evil is somehow evil?
>>8581417
Why are democrats so delusional?

>>8581449
>He showed that objective morality exists and can be proven with science
Utilitarianism is by definition not objective, and science cannot even defend itself.

>>8582436
/lit/ can do better than this if mods deleted political threads or people ignored them. But /lit/ can't which is why this board is only about 5% /lit/.

>>8582488
Science is about finding the truth through rational means. Rationality is the opposite of dogmatism. The concept of scientism makes no sense

File: Mad Max.jpg (283KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

283KB, 1920x1080px

>>8582550

>finding the truth

>>8582550
Rationality is inherently dogmatic, science does not seek truth because it is inherently dogmatic and entirely limited in scope.

>>8582550
how old are you? Do you read much? Have you gotten your degree yet?

I see people constantly misrepresenting his positions, especially in this thread.

His argument on morality is approximately this

>1. We should care about human well-being and base our moral judgements on this
>2. We can scientifically, to whatever degree, measure human well-being and make decisions accordingly.

Now argue against that instead of some straw man.

>>8583511

>should

>>8583576
Yep, that's what he's proposing as he (and I happen to agree with him) believe we shouldn't just go on our whims and feelings. Got any better suggestions?

>>8582559
Science seeks about as much truth as one could ever generally say is true. As far as rationality goes: Scientifically, unobservational, "not proven", subjects of debate is simply untrue. This is logical; rational. Philosophically, none of us actually exist, except you. Debate is a matter of perception, rationality is disproportional to ones philosphical outlook, and a question posed can't simply be proven through rational or patternized thought without it being disproved by another school of thought.
So, excuse science for attempting to sort out all of the shit philosophy, or as you call it, "unrestricted proof", feeds us.

>>8583511
Explain how you can measure human well being

>>8583650

That we

>should

care about human well-being and create a moral structure around this notion is, in itself, a whim and feeling. One that Harris presumes to extract objectivity from.

>>8575375
I think he's pretty funny
>Argues -*argues*- for strong determinism
>Runs a lobbying firm
I mean that is Noam Chomsky level funny

>>8575375
I'm glad he's as famous and makes people think. Usually people with his ideas don't end up on mainstream TV shows.

hes ok

>>8581234
Iraq and Afghanistan are in Asia. They're all asian countries, dipshit.

File: dqkY0o1.jpg (98KB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 480x270px

>>8575519

>classical regressive "privilege" ad-hom

>he is critical of islam therefore he is racist

fck of

>>8583892
Most Muslims live in the far east.

Even /pol/ knows he is retarded.

File: samHarris1.png (186KB, 810x675px) Image search: [Google]

186KB, 810x675px

1/3

File: samHarris2.png (486KB, 821x1557px) Image search: [Google]

486KB, 821x1557px

2/3

File: samHarris3.png (895KB, 920x2492px) Image search: [Google]

895KB, 920x2492px

3/3

>>8585239
wowee a straw man representation of a guy for straw-manning.

>>8582554
you might be surprised to learn that the truth and its pursuit aren't spooks for Stiner, unless you are under the impression that they confer obligations on you

Why are Liberals so afraid of criticizing Islam

you honestly cannot say that Christianity is just as violent as Islam today?

>>8580032

>I don't understand the argument

>>8580987
It leads to cognitive dissonance and is not a consistent belief system.

>>8580087
No one cares about your joke laws some ideologues invented to institutionalize positivism.
>>8583670
So much ideology in one post.
>Science seeks about as much truth as one could ever generally say is true.
According to?
>This is logical; rational
No one cares about your dogma mate.
>Philosophically, none of us actually exist, except you
Are you stuck in the early modern age mate? No one takes this Cartesian/pseudohumean nonsense seriously anymore besides primitive-minded redditheads. I thought you were supposed to be progressive?
>proof
Proof doesn't exist.
>>8585367
Christianity cannot actually be violent, Christians arguably cannot even be. Christians are supposed to strive to be Christlike, thereby making any action contrary to that un-Christian.

Materialist Islam on the otherhand does not have a New Testament or anything like that to remove former obligations, so they are still bound to violence.

>>8586367
>Christianity cannot actually be violent
translation
>The land-grant university I attended for 3 semesters didn't even HAVE a theology department!

>>8586391
Are you trying to be the new trisomyfag?

>>8586391
I have only attended one university in my life and it is not in the US, you burgerhead. I am in for my third bachelor's degree, which is in fact essentially in theology (philosophy of religion, but with many courses in theology).

>>8586406
>philosophy of religion
What's that all about then?

>>8586450
Philosophy of religion is the study of the development, tenants, and basic structure of religions and religious meaning.
i.e., comparisons of Greek and Roman mythologies and religious tenants, attempts to trace back their origins.
Theology is specific to one religion or possibly a branch (Abraham, for example). It is more concerned with understanding the religion and its texts, and clarifying the religion's tenants and its place in history. I don't think many theologians try to produce ontological arguments anymore, but that of course was a thing up until recently.
i.e., interpreting/reinterpreting a Biblical tale and applying this to the notion of a proper religious life.Or developing a different sect/interpretation of religions entirely. Luther and Al-Ghazali for example are big theologians in the Abrahamic tradition.

>>8586476
This may be of no interest to you, but nevertheless this is a masters with 0 tuition if you're from the EEA.
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/studying/how-to-apply/masters-studies#section-13267
It's one of those pan Nordic masters things (I firget the proper name but it means you can study at a bunch of different institutions if you wish) and has distance options, but isn't well publicised.

Thanks for the explanation regardless.

>>8586406
>I am in for my third bachelor's degree, which is in fact essentially in theology (philosophy of religion, but with many courses in theology).
You claim all that AND are completely unaware of Just War Theory?
This is why people spend fortunes to send their kids to a country with *real* universities.
>Protip: I am not an American, I assumed you were from the ignorance

>>8586401
you shouldn't use words you don't understand

>>8586648
>ignorance
Just because a theory exists does not make it valid or relevant.

Consider that before you speak. Kant for example is Christian and although I cannot recall him writing on it, has functionally already argued against the Just War theory, and I doubt you would claim he is thereby ignorant of it or of the field of theology as a whole.

ITT scientist nerds sucking the dick of a Ben Stiller impersonator with a fraudulent degree

>>8583794
It's just as much a whim and feeling as defining health as not dying at 20 years of age, defining healthy as being able to walk and sustain yourself without being strapped on life support etc, etc. We do this all the time.

You're fit if you've got good endurance, relatively low body fat etc. None of these things are entirely objective, what makes morality so different? Why should we not care about human well-being as a measure of morality? Seems like a much better measure than what we've got right now, i.e. whims and feelings which measuring well-being obviously isn't. Just as we can say that cancer isn't healthy, we could say that someone with depression has a pretty low well-being.

>>8587562
What about thoses gay guys that try/want to get AIDS? How do you measure their "well being"?

>>8587572
If they feel better living with aids than without it, that'd be an increase, if not, it'd be a decrease.

Obviously we don't (yet) have the tools to absolutely measure whether it's a 1% increase or anything of that nature, but we can generally know how we feel and how others may feel (at least if you've got empathy).

>>8579492
>Muslims kill each other more than they kill us so don't consider their religion a threat

>>8587360
>muh degree

Arguments are arguments no matter who makes them.

>>8576468

Have you actually read the Frankfurt School?

>>8588607
>blacks kill each other more than us, so theyre not a threat

you asswhole.. dont u get it u raceist? These r Human. Beaings. You can't just judge them like that tho...

>>8575375
People are making a big deal about his politics, but the fact is that he's just not a good philosopher; when confronted by serious counter arguments, instead of defending his position, he reduces his position to meaninglessness. For example, in The End of Faith, he claimed that religion makes people irrational and violent. When it was pointed out to him that most of the violence of the 20th century was based in communism, fascism, and ethnic conflict rather than religion, he said that these things are religions because they're based in untrue beliefs. In making this "defense" of his work, he changed what his thesis ultimately is, from "people shouldn't believe in God" to "people shouldn't have wrong beliefs-" a statement that is pretty much axiomatically true and philosophically useless.

>>8589903
I have also noticed that he has a tendency to create to positions which he holds simultaneously. One is the smaller more provocative position he uses to make positive claims and the second being a larger more defensible position as a shield to protect himself from criticism.

>>8589903

How is "people shouldn't have wrong beliefs" axiomatically true? read your Nietzsche, son

>>8589903
>he claimed that religion makes people irrational and violent.

>When it was pointed out to him that most of the violence of the 20th century was based in communism, fascism, and ethnic conflict rather than religion

How is the latter debunking the former? They're not contradictions.

>>8589946
I assume because Nazism and Communism are atheistic movements it shows that it's not religion that make people irrational and violent.

>>8589946
I guess I'll expand a little too. What he's arguing against is dogma, clearly.

This argument
>>8589903
would be like someone writing about how violent and horrible the nazis were only to have someone butt in with "oh but what about the communists?" as if that makes difference. He most likely picked religion and not communism since everyone already knows how shitty communism is, but nobody (was even truer then than now) really talks about how shitty religion is.

>>8589957

>The Nazis were atheists

wrong.

>>8587295
>Just because a theory exists does not make it valid or relevant
So the doctrine used by the largest single denomination of Christians and used used to determine when (not *if*, note) to used violence by 1.2 billion people seems rather relevant to me.
>Looks like you just looked it up on Wikipedia

>>8590034
They weren't inherently atheistic like the communist but most top level Nazis were and they practiced discrimination against Christianity whenever it wasn't convenient to pretend to be it.

>>8587295
>Kant
>Christian
I hate this meme so much.

>>8576517
shut the fuck up with all the buzzwords you deriviative pleb!!!!!!!!