Does /lit/ appreciate comics as a artistic medium?

>>8545907
Nope. I depreciate comics as an Autistic medium.

>>8545907

I do but I enjoy manga more.

I do. Recommend me some good stuff that isn't capeshit pls. (Ex-)Yugoslavian recs would be particularly appreciated, if you know any.

>>8545955
lolxd

>>8545974
Manga are comics, though. Just because they come from a different country doesn't mean that they are a different art form.

>>8545907
No. I never saw anything more than entertainment in them. But I don't really care.

Of course. It's a medium with enormous potential, if done right. Anyone who dismisses comics, should read "Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud. I guarantee that you will change your opinion.

>>8545907
Whoa! Deep symbolism there my friend!

>>8545907

Yes, but rarely.

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>>8545907
Any medium is potentially artistic. It's what you do with it. Most comics aren't meant to be fine art or high literature, but the capacity is there, of course. When somebody does give it the old college try (Habibi), the result can be fascinating--or completely overrated (Persepolis). It's not really different than the novel market in that respect.

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>>8545955
Mein Gott! Somebody get this pure ideology out of here!

Literature was considered a low tier medium for the first two centuries, and it was a shame to be caught reading a prose book back in the day - every medium is potentially the same as any other, now books have a goldern aurea because nobody read them (at least, nobody reads serious books anyore).

Grow up, for Christ's sake

Just like any other artistic medium, it has the potential to be very tasteful and deep, and can also be pop garbage too.
That being said, I never bothered to read Maus, Holocaust bullshit is so over-done, im not even a /pol/fag and im sick of "muh 6 million" bullshit

>>8546189
Every medium has to be stigmatized before it can be great - the Victorians would look down their nose at you for going to a play rather than the opera, Dickens was published in cheap periodicals for people to read on the train, jazz was invented in literal ghettoes, film was lowest-common-denominator schlock until Chaplin/Welles, etc.

With comics it's Alan Moore, Art Spiegelman, and to a lesser extent Frank Miller who effected the change by writing about serious topics (war, death, politics, etc). Unfortunately it didn't entirely take - a few people, like Gaiman and Grant Morrison, got the idea to do books with actual themes and ideas in, but mostly you just saw an uptick in edginess. The process is still underway, though, and arguably the thoughtful ones are starting to overtake the "biff! bang! pow!" end of the spectrum.

(If my theory holds up, by the way, there should be a milestone legitimizing work in the fields of YA and/or self-published ebooks next).

>>8546189

Uh oh someones mad their comics are considered low brow.

>>8547574

Uh oh someone's trying to assert their sense of superiority

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>>8545907
It sure has a potential as a medium, but not it's artists. Staring at Piotr Bruegl paintings is a much deeper experience than reading any comic ever made in history.

>>8545907
I don't fucking know, does /co/ appreciate novels as a comic medium?

>>8547604

uh oh someone actually is upset about their comics. well there are many things superior to them so i don't have to assert.

>this comic is about the holocaust therefore it's art
yawn

>>8546015
"Here" is an interesting short comic. He expanded it into a graphic novel but the six page original is better in my opinion.
http://www.entrecomics.com/?p=9431

>>8545907
As long as comics don't take themselves too seriously (cerebus the aadvark) I honestly like them. >>8545907

>>8547612
what if i make a comic where one of the pictures happens to be that painting

>>8546040
completely agree. and after that they should read watchmen. talk about a masterpiece of fiction.

>>8547943
Watchmen still hasn't been surpassed in the comics medium when it comes to sheer quality of the story

not just superhero comics, no comic in general has been able to match it

ITT
Pseuds waste their time laughing at comics instead of doing something worthwhile.
Again.

No wonder /lit/ is considered one of the worst boards on cuckchan.

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>>8545907
Of course.

Watchmen is for edgy 14 year olds but comics can be pretty fantastic.

>>8547960
how to botch a bait attempt: the post

>>8547953
its unlike any other graphic novel ive read. each panel is crafted to show off the setting without wasting space. when it's not showing of the the setting or an action, it goes back to the 3 by 3 panels per page and reads more like a book. each panel is like it was set up by a cinematographer. its just incredible to look at.

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Actual lit tier comic coming through.

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The patrician choice for Spanish comics.

Comic can be good without being grimdark or "wow so mature and so deep" like Watchmen (See: Tintin)

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>>8547962
Watchmen is a pulpy bizarro-take on popular superhero tropes praised as the be all and end all by everyone who has read under 2000 pages worth of comics in their life.

Devilman is a work so groundbreaking that even decades later in a popular genre people are trying to imitate it but nobody has managed to surpass it or even hit the same notes.

>>8547994
i agree that superlopez is great. it's sad that i liked mortadelo as a kid even thought they are garbage in comparison

I read Nameless by Grant Morrison this summer. that was a really intriduing way of telling a story, I enjoyed the artwork too. I don't think it would have been nearly as good if it had been a novel/short story.

>>8547984
Jesus, I totally forgot about that guy. Read that shit all the time when i was a kid.

>>8545907
>I do. Recommend me some good stuff that isn't capeshit pls. (Ex-)Yugoslavian recs would be particularly appreciated, if you know any.
You must've heard of Enki Bilal, right?

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>>8547913
Dayum, that was nice.

>>8548157
Nope, but I'll check him out. I only really know croatian artists (Kordej, Maurović, Žeželj, Dragić and some Beker).

>>8547538
I felt exactly like this the first time I saw Maus in a library. Some time later, though, my mother borrowed the comic, I gave it a shot and enjoyed it. It's surprisingly honest about its characters and events, not just about muh poor Jew martyrs. Try it, seriously.

>>8548222
>batman donald
KEK

>>8548004
Devilman is hot garbage. I like manga and comics but I was disappointed by how mediocre Devilman was.

>>8548004
I liked the twist near the end, but that's about it. What's so special about it? Also it's too short, the pacing is shit.

>>8545907
Comics (not the big two) and moreso Manga have been two mediums that really push creativity. Compared to modern film and lit they have more artistic value.

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>>8548336
I thought that the pacing was just about the best part of Devilman. Nagai just took the idea and ran with it. The story doesn't stop racing along and escalating for a second.

As a manga artist/writer I think that Nagai does an excellent job of action, with everything being clear and easy to follow but at the same time quite dynamic and engaging with some very cool panelling at times and great two-page spreads. And for his writing, he seems to have an appreciation for storytelling that's rare not just among comic writers, but writers in general. He's one of those rare genre-fiction writers like Wolfe and Lafferty who seems to draw upon everything from his peers, past works of the genre, history to even mythology to create his stories. Devilman gives a light sense of this but where it really shines is in Devilman Lady, which while controversial I personally loved just as much as Devilman.

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>>8548373
Art is objectively over.

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while we're at it: post your favorite pieces of albumcovers or artwork.

>>8547938
This is how I feel about Doctor Who. The revival series we great until it started getting pressured by its teaboo fanbase and taking itself way too seriously.

>>8545907
That one was just slightly on the nose.

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Punpun was bretty gud

>>8548222
Make sure to read Bilal, he's one of the greatest comic artists of Europe.

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Bump

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>>8546015
I'm getting into them myself. Of the few I've read so far, these were good.

>>8545907
Comics are an artistic medium whether they are appreciated or not, but, no, I don't appreciate them.

I welcome you to try and change my mind.

>>8551552
The artwork in Prince Valiant is incredible.

>>8548146
>Jesus, I totally forgot about that guy.
I'm going through the collected stories from the magazine. So many good lines.
>Han har en poäng där! Klart grabben ska spränga planeten!

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Name a better piece of literature

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>>8551552
The art style reminds me a bit of this Spanish comic, Capitán Trueno

>>8546049
>Craig Thompson (a self-congratulating hack) is good but Persepolis is somehow overrated
What a shit opinion tbqh oni-chan

>>8551982
this is actually a good example

>>8552012
Your opinion. Habibi is a massively ambitious and complex work, with some very impressive art and detailed design. Persepolis is amateur self-congratulatory autobiography with little grace of storytelling and fucking terrible crude art. Whatever you mean by "hack,"it doesn't convince me. I'll take Habibi any day: it's not 100% successful, but it's much more impressive and original.

>>8552014

It's a good series but incredibly overrated, Asano has better works like A Girl On The Shore and Nijighara Holograph.

I'm somehow surprised Punpun managed to actually get an English release.

Who /Jirotaniguchi/ or /ShigeruMizuki/ here?

>>8552675
>Jirotaniguchi
I loved Distant Neighborhood and A Zoo in Winter, so I'm interested in Summit of the Gods, but what is the story about? They don't just climb the mountain and talk for the whole 5 books, right?

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>>8552675
I've read all of Asano's works and suprisingly those two were the only ones I didn't liked at all. My fa orite works are actually his short story collections, especially his first work Subarashii Senkai (known as It's A Wonderful World in the west). But even so, there are better works than Punpun in my opinion, to name. Freesia, Voynich Hotel, Holyland and of course Eden: It's an Endless World, to name a few. Punpun is still good, no question, but the Asano dickrider, who have read nothing but Punpun and Solanin need to ease the fuck up.

2666 and Tails gets Trolled are the only great works of this century so far.

>>8548222
Fingerpori is godtier, that other Jarla strip which is in Helsingin Sanomat is good too

>>8552739

Punpun fans are becoming as bad as Berserk fans, they may as well be lumped into the same category since I can't discern between the two anymore. It's always HURR DURR MASTERPIECE. Both of them are good pieces of work when it comes to comics but certain people really ruin the enjoyment.

As for It's a Wonderful World I'm hoping it is reprinted again or something since it seems like it might be out of print. I'd love a hardcover release or something as good as Vertical's A Girl on the Shore released in a single volume together.

You.

Have.

A.

Whole.

Board.

For.

This.

Shit.

>>8547939
That would be extremely postmodern you should do it

Inio Asano is shitty YA-tier shit. Berserk is fantashit

There's some great stuff out there but it's buried under a mountain of capeshit. It really is depressing walking into a comic store where 90% of merc is targeted towards manchildren. I bought Joe Sacco's WW1 panorama and the clerk was so glad to see someone finally buying it

>>8552911
Not really.
/co/ is capeshit and worksafe /aco/. No graphic novel literature discussion to be found there, just throw away banalities and childlike fetish wank materials.

>>8552939

This.
Not only have superheroes have ruined mainstream cinema but they've soiled comics long ago, it's basically impossible to find good things with depth outside of manga these days considering the American market is flooded with 95% Cape books.

>>8552911
So do you

Go back to your pure ideology containment thread

>>8547571
Wouldn't YA just fall under books in general?

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No pekar? Come on lads

That isn't an 'artistic' novel.

And yes, I've read it; I believe three times.
>>8546015
>Manga are comics, though. Just because they come from a different country doesn't mean that they are a different art form.
They have a different ethos. You may as well say the string music of Austria is the same as the string music of India.

>>8553498
A different ethos doesn't split an art form into two. Austrian and Indian string music are very different, but they are both music, and both western and eastern comics are comics. What that anon said is basically: "I appreciate string music but I enjoy Indian string music more."

>>8546015
>(Ex-)Yugoslavian recs
I assume you already know about Bilal to be asking this, but check out his early stuff.

Zograf's "Regards from Serbia", though artwise it is more cartoon than comic/bande dessinee, may interest you as a firsthand account from the 90s

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>>8546015

Asterios Polyp is one of the greatest things I've ever read, comic or otherwise.

>>8553627
read more

>>8552739
I found punpun to be a work that amaze so much people (specially in the west) because there are not many examples in manga that combines methaphor, surrealism and overall nihilist feeling, so many "intellectual" readers saw it as a masterpiece. Many opinions would change if they had read more manga.
But Asano is great, Punpun is great and Dead Dead Demons is great aswell

Cerebus is the best comic

>>8545907
stray bullets really got me. i cant think of any other comics that did that

>>8546049
Can someone post some examples of comics that are great art? I really want to read some (All I've read is Scott Pilgrim).

Is Maus good?

all mediums reflect the ability of humans to create commodities for consumption, 'works', or works of art that are produced in relation to their participant.

>>8552012
Habibi is shit but Persepolis doesn't even have a graphic element, its deal is basically "I can't write well enough to make this prose but I'm not confident enough to make it a convincing storyboard"

>>8554007
Watchmen (and other stuff by Moore)
Maus
Barefoot Gen (partially inspired Maus)
Persepolis (there are some legitimate criticisms itt, but I still recommend it if you want more Maus-y stuff)
Prince Valiant (the original Hal Foster works, not the continuations by other artists)
Tarzan (Brune Hogarth)
Jimmy Corrigan
Asterios Polyp
Sharaz-de (Sergio Toppi)
Corto Maltese (Hugo Pratt)
A Contract with God (Eisner)
anything by Jiro Taniguchi

Also highly regarded (IMO overrated, but you still should give them a shot):
The Dark Knight Returns
Hicksville
Black Hole
Sandman

>>8554008
It's pretty good. It just shows you the suffering of the Holocaust and doesn't really make a comment on it. It's just ''there it is, people suffering and stuff'' with a good amount of moral ambiguity and kindness.

What's hilarious is that the main character literally outjew-ed the most anti semitic place on the planet.

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>>8546049
Persepolis is indeed way overrated. "World" fiction and all in the 21st century, ya know
>>8554007
I'd obviously recommend the usual DC suspects: Watchmen and Sandman. Watchmen's a bit only-good-by-comic-book-standards but Sandman is really it's own kind of fantastic, although the drastic change in art style midway through is particularly jarring. Most Marvel and DC comics are utter trash though. There's a few good one-shots here and there, but most series are just abysmal in writing and boring in art.

For shorter comics, French, with a more absurdist edge and amazing art, check out the Moebius comics Arzach and The Airtight Garage. I would highly recommend these, if anything, to qualify as "great art." Pretty much everything he wrote and illustrated for a spell in the 70s was absolutely stunning though.

Some manga are pretty good (Goodnight Punpun [debatably, at least the art is nice], anything by Tsutomu Nihei is edgy but cool), but that whole art form is an acquired taste to say the least.
>>8547913
Wow, that hits surprisingly hard

>>8553594
>they are both music
That's the supracategory, comics and manga fall under literature which is their supracategory.

>>8554402
It should be obvious to you that even when distinguishing between these categories, you can still find a much lower supracategory to regroup them (together with bandes dessinees) under than "literature". There's "illustrated literature", for one, and even that is a much higher and less specific supracategory than necessary to contain the characteristics of those forms

>>8554418
I'm not aiming for a lower category, I am aiming for a broad while still specific category.

I could take an extremity and categorize all sorts of music 'sound' and all literature 'symbols'; but that would defeat the purpose, as would taking another extremity and categorizing them more specifically.

>>8554426
As it defeats the purpose to bring them under "literature" in this context. "Literature" isn't to comics/manga/bd what "music" is to string music traditions from across the world, you're just being led there by the absence of a word describing comics/manga/bd that you don't specifically associate with one of those cultures

>>8554434
It doesn't matter, the relationships are still the same: comics are to manga as the string music of Austria is to the string music of India. Whether or not one of the relationships is between more specific artforms is irrelevant.

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Spielgelman offers a good definition for comix: a co-mixing of words and pictures.

>>8545974
enjoy it while you can . Getting older sux

>>8547612
>what is a comic to a painting
what is a painting to a frog meme

>>8548222
the RinTin cat ...

>>8552922
i was making a point that one genre encompasses the other so his post was bullshit

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>>8545907
>tfw my teacher gives us comic books to study in litterature class instead of classics. """"University""""

Why has no one mentioned Usagi?

>>8545907
>it's a Jew isn't absolutely evil for a change episode

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>>8546044
you don't know how deep it really goes friendo

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>>8545907
recommending this particular story to anyone unfamiliar with Ito's work

I'll dump it on /a/ and leave a link after I get off work

>>8557246
wat?

>>8557975
anon likely referring to how Maus isn't the usual holocaust spiel

>>8557262
the greasy oil one made me feel physically ill

>>8545907
>>>/a/

If you can't read without pictures I suggest you get off this board.

>>8557262
Oooh, I haven't read this one.

My personal favourite is 'Army of One.'

>>8553742
nigger i read more in a month than you can your whole life

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>>8556391
Except it doesn't. It's not the same to see a Goya than watching inside the context of a comic book. They can have completely different meanings just because the context is different.

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>>8545907
Comics are different from literature mostly because they are extremely self-referential, especially cape shit. Most of the best comics have appearances or refrences to several characters (Superman, Batman, Capt. America, etc.), and often have feature Nazis and some sort of variant on the idea of a multiverse. Watchmen, and a lot of Alan Moores' other writing, makes fun comics goofy nature, while Grant Morrison is so in love with the goofy aspect you can't really understand some of his best work unless you've read a good deal of silver-age comics. It just builds on itself constantly because only two companies have claim to about 95% of the best comics made, and even the 5% owned by other companies will also reference those companies' work.

tl;dr
Comics are all about nostalgia for the medium .

>>8559253
*I fucked up a bunch of stuff in that post but I just woke up and I'm on a phone.

>>8559253
>>8559257
you've done worse than that
self-referential making comics different from literature? do you even know anything at all about literature? moore makes fun of the *goofy nature*? you've seen a movie adaptation and somebody else's interview, is that it? two companies contain *95%* of the best comics? they don't even contain a fraction of the good ones, what the fuck are you on, go back to sleep man

>>8559244
sure but saying that one medium is better than other or one can't provide as deep a experience as the other

>>8559253
That's partly true for superhero comics, and folks like Moore or Morrison who started in that field, but you're ignoring a huge world of comics/ graphic novels that are unconnected to superheroes, and often have the best stories and critical acclaim. Look at stuff published by Fantagraphics, Drawn & Quarterly, etc. Those guys are playing a different game. Burns, Sacco, Seth, Delisle, Bechdel, Clowes, Gloeckner, Spiegelman, Ware, Hernandez.. all sitting on my shelves next to the Marvel/DC stuff.

>>8559326
>>8559244
sure but saying that one medium is better than other or that one can't provide as deep a experience as the other is retarded

DMZ was literally the best piece of media I've ever seen about the war on terror, so definitely yes.

Never got the symbolism of Maus though. You're mice, they're cats, you could have seen it coming. The reason the Holocaust was so terrible is it was mice doing it to each other. Making the"Jews" a different species kind of ruins the point in my opinion.

>>8559331
All of that stuff is mediocre or bad when judged in any context other than comics, and even then they're not that great. Literary and art critics only ever give them acclaim because they want to feel like they're being culturally relevant.

>>8560920
>Literary and art critics only ever give them acclaim because they want to feel like they're being culturally relevant.
Do you have any proof of this or you just made it up?

>>8560920
Which one of these have you read? now guess how I know you're talking out of your ass

>>8560920
So you've read all those authors, have you? Colour me skeptical. I suspect you have no idea what you're talking about.