Kafka Discussion Thread

>>8544844
>the prose isn't exceptional
Your translation has got to be shit. Kafka is considered a master of the German idiom.

>>8544844

>Wordsworth
There's your problem, get Everyman, even Vintage, just not Wordsworth.

>>8544894
What's wrong with Wordsworth? It only cost 1p plus shipping, it was a bargain. I'm not concerned with the acidity of paper or whatever

>>8544844
Resident Kafka scholar here. I can help you with all your Kafka questions. I've read all of his work, even the diaries.

>>8544902
Rei or Asuka?

>>8544896
if they're skimping on paper they're skimping on translation

>>8544907
They just use old translations in the public domain. I prefer older translations anyway desu

>>8544904

Not him but Misato is clearly the patrician choice.

>>8544917
Kafka would 100% be an Asukafag, just look at the women in his novels.

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Kafka would definitely choose imouto, you retard.

>Rei
>Asuka
>Misato
>imouto
What is going on here?

Anyway, OP, the trial is considered one of his best/most representative works.

>>8544844
>>8544894
The schocken translations are pretty good imo.
>>8544902
Thoughts on the aphorisms? I just picked them up recently and find them such an interesting juxtaposition to the rest of his work.

>>8544844
>the prose isn't exceptional
Come on man

I might get some slag for this, but I always thought that Kafka's prose reads like the choreography of Wes Anderson's films.

Like the mise-en-scene, the regulated moment of the camera, and the direct, almost premeditated character interactions seem to flow with the same energy as Kafka's narrative style.

>>8545028
Kafka does like compelling imagery but I'd have to disagree with any comparison to film just because the biggest thing of Kafka is what he doesn't mention or intentionally makes ambiguous.

>>8545053
>>8545028

I'd say he's more like Luis Buñuel, lots of his scenes are completely ambiguous for the sake of ambiguity but people like to stress and over analyze their meaning. Or possibly Maya Deren.

After Metamorphosis, "In the Penal Colony" is one of my favorite Kafka works. It is pleasantly non-surreal for Kafka but still retains his signature weirdness and ironic arcs.

"The Trees" is a very short prose. At first read it could easily be mistaken for a basement dwellers 14 year old 2deep4u facebook post, but the longer you digest it and think about it in relation to his other work it becomes that Kafka-esque kind of blissful

There is something extremely obnoxious about this thread

>>8545121
>oh no, a thread about someone who isn't a /lit/ meme

>>8544902
Could you help me in understanding the Castle? I'm going to read it a second time, any thing I should keep in mind?

>>8545257
Not him, but remember when reading Kafka, always be open to interpreting symbols as having multiple meanings. Kafka's work in some ways is so genius as it contains such an intense distribution of meaning throughout, in a sense that it is constantly unfolding. Don't try to look at stuff just through one allegorical, political, psychological, biographical lens, but continue to search for different meanings.
In addition, some things to note in The Castle are the posture of characters and the ways in which relationships between characters are mirrored. Also the weather/tone is pretty important.

a country doctor is my favourite short story of all time
it's the most perfect dream narrative

>>8545609
Great advice, thanks

>>8544887
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but there's something super enigmatic and poetic about Kafka's prose it's hard to find in any other writer, you should get a better translation. This ain't any translation memeing, either.

You could read any of his short stories you want, the iconic ones are The Judgment, The Metamorphosis, The Country Doctor, In The Penal Colony, but he also has a lot of obscure goodies which are clearly quick and easy to read.

The Trial, Amerika, and The Castle (my least favorite of the 3 but still great) are all worth reading, the only novels he ever wrote in his lifetime, unfinished, and probably better off for not having neat endings, which dreams never have.

>>8545121
This is a pretty good thread, you're the obnoxious one. Go post anime or frog pictures or something, /lit/ isn't /b/.

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>>8546204
No problem. The best biography of Kafka is Ronald Hayman's, if you're interested in learning about Kafka's sad life.
Some interesting, albeit obtuse, analysis on Kafka is Deleuze and Guattaris' Towards a Minor Literature. It does actually make some good points.

>>8544979
I love the aphorisms. They're a great compliment--it's been a while since i've been through them though.

>>8545257
Sure. While >>8545609 is right in the sense that there is multiple meanings distributed throughout, I would hesitate to ascribe this to 'symbols' or anything of that nature--part of what makes The Castle so infuriating is the deliberate LACK of the referent, or the thing ostensibly being 'pointed at' by what you deem as symbols. A great example of this is the telephone call that K. receives in which multiple nonsensical stimuli seem to collapse into one, unintelligible hum that sounds like ONE thing. It seems to me that Kafka is presenting a suspicion of hermeneutics in general (See Paul Ricoeur's work if this interests you particularly). K's entire journey towards the castle, which is really stagnation, is a manifestation of this idea. The name, the word, the signifier of "THE CASTLE" as an idea is never realized. There is no referent. The idea is not fulfilled on purpose. Kafka's entire work screams INTERPRET ME, yet the reader's struggle to decipher 'symbols' is ultimately futile. In this sense, Kafka slips into a bit of surrealist tradition (yet this obviously came after), for his work allows for assumed 'symbols' to be interpreted via the perception of the viewer rather than any actualized thing that's being referred. Think of K's journey to the castle,, or point, or end, as the reader's own.

Also, as an extra tidbit of information, this work is also read (through a biographical/historical lens) as a commentary on xenophobia, for K's immediate exclusion is predicated upon the identity ascribed to him, just as Kafka was painted as an outsider, for he was a Czech living in Germany. Even though Kafka was Jewish, he didn't really fit into the Jewish tradition either. I hesitate to accept this reading\, however, merely because of skeptical of any biographical interpretations. however, there could definitely be some merit to this.

>>8546390
Benjamin's interpretation of Kafka is also worth reading. Further, Derrida has a nice essay on the preface to The Trial.

>>8545630
Check this out if you like A Country Doctor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDjmW-gIsKs

t. Biggest Kafka fanboy on this board

Reading kafka is Kafkaesque. I always keep reading him in order to maybe finally understand what he's trying to say. The day still hasn't come. Have even heeded St. Wallace's dictums on Kafka. No luck. What do I do?

>>8545121
I agree. As someone who legitimately loves his work, I think & feel that Kafka would be ashamed by all this fatuous SMOKE BLOWING and absurd in-the-know-ness.

>>8545609
>always be open to interpreting symbols as having multiple meanings
This is what a symbol is. We use symbols to express what can't be said in any other way. As Chesterton said, they're a way of showing, not hiding. Criticism just collapses the wave-form in interesting ways.

>>8546458
Nah, you're just too pseudy to sincerely talk about his works, you'd rather be silent, anyone who would speak sincerely you view as obnoxious. Eat poop.

>>8546390
>Hayman
>not Stach

why?

>>8546458
>As someone who legitimately loves his work
>i dont read criticism b/c kafka wouldnt want it
>just take it for what it is man
>ive read the metamorphosis twice
>I think AND feel
>the trial is unfinished
>looking for meaning
>its the point!

yadadadadadada

>>8546206
Amerika does have a "neat ending", though. It is considered unfinished because of apparent gaps in other places, most notably what seems to be a completely missing penultimate chapter.

>>8546483
Hm, I'm inclined to disagree. The Trial has the neat ending (I was wrong in generalizing they all don't have neat endings of course) and other parts incomplete, but Amerika wasn't finished at all IIRC, the last chapter ending with a beautiful image of Karl on the train looking out at the mountains and water but no explicit closure.

>>8546504
this is true. I think >>8546483 may be thinking of The Trial

>>8546395
I think there's validity to the idea that at least some of Kafka's work function as a commentary on a jew living in exile, specifically The Burrow or The Castle.
The explicitness of his stories however is never direct, "He never used the words 'Jew' in his fiction, never made any of his characters Jewish. This would have been like putting on a Jewish mask; animal masks served him better." (Hayman 7).
I agree that The Castle doesn't build towards or contain 'symbols.' You articulated what I've been trying for a while. The physical nature of some scenes, for example, the painting in the tavern the first time K. enters and the posture of the other tavern members function as some kind of symbol.
>>8546464
True, I do think Kafka's work is unique, and as>>8546395 said, they aren't symbols in any traditional sense.
>>8546467
I'm not familiar with it, why do you prefer it?

>>8546552
Why not? What's so un-traditional about them? They might stand for new ideas, but symbols have always stood for other things, haven't they?

>>8546552
Well I haven't read Hayman's biography, I just really like Stach's! So I was hoping you'd read both and could tell me why the former was better.

>>8546483

Since I read Amerika this summer and loved it a lot I was wondering about the end. Is it implied Karl somehow died and the train is taken him to the afterlife or did he really get employment at an acting guild?

Love Kafka

>>8546581
he really got employed, no death

>>8546571
I'll check him out, haven't read it.

>>8546581
In my experience most books aren't like Edd Ed and Eddy where it's revealed they were all dead kids the entire time. The mindset of everything having to fit into one real world doesn't seem right to me in this context, you know? Like it's not as if the preceding 200 or so pages before the nature theatre was sharp realism and then the edges started getting fuzzy...

>>8546587

The thing with the devils and angels at the train stop made me think it was slightly purgatorial like so nice to see you cleared it up for me.

>You'll never be raped by an older woman
Speaking of Karl's rape. How come Amerika is a pretty obscure book outside of Kafka fans, but Lolita is incredibly well known for how graphic it is even among non readers? It's not really Karl's fault he got into the situation considered he was basically raped by one of his maids.

Read the Hunter Gracchus

>>8546611
I don't think Amerika is less popular because of Karl's indiscretion. And why would graphic stuff make a book less popular, anyway?

Idk why Amerika is lesser known. I secretly suspect that "the canon" is a totally arbitrary list of many smart people's opinions uncritically reinforced by 99% of people who aren't experts in whatever field. What I mean is that most college kids read the metamorphosis and move on. We only have time for one thing at a time, and I guess the bigwigs have decided that the Bug One is gonna be the one everyone reads (and the one about court is gonna be the book everyone reads) for some reason.

>>8544844
I say you should just go nuts on this site:

http://zork.net/~patty/pattyland/kafka/parables/parables.htm

Personally, my favorite is the Man who Disappeared or the Imperial Message.

>>8544902
what did he think about existence, did he think it was worth living? Did he think searching for meaning to life was pointless?

>>8546582
nice post

>>8547394
Some aphorisms for you;
"The true path is along a rope, not a rope suspended way up in the air, but rather only just over the ground. It seems like a tripwire than a tightrope."
"From a certain point on, there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached."
"A first indication of glimmering understanding is the desire to die. This life seems unendurable, another unreachable. One no longer feels ashamed of wanting to die; one petitions to be moved from one's old cell, which one hates, into a new one, which one will come to hate. A last vestige of belief is involved here, too, for during the move might not the prison governor by chance walk down the passage, see the prisoner, and say: 'Don't lock this man up again. He's coming with me.'"
"A cage went in search of a bird."

>>8546504
>>8546509
No, I'm thinking of Amerika. Did you want the work to follow the protagonist for the rest of his life? The train ride is a logical closure point. He is leaving behind the craziness that was his life when he first arrived in the U.S. and looks forward to better times. Was A Catcher in the Rye unfinished? I even seem to remember reading somewhere that either Kafka's buddy Max whatever, who published all of his stuff after he died, attested to the fact that Kafka had written the ending to Amerika and that he just hadn't gone back to fill in the gaps, or else that Kafka's own notes suggested this. I really need to go to sleep or I'd try to track down a source.

Either way, if you read Amerika, I'm not really sure what a more appropriate ending could possibly be. It's also painfully obvious that I am at the very least correct in that there was meant to be another chapter before the last one, just based on several blatant context clues.

>>8547477
I ended up looking for a source after all, and I guess Kafka did talk about adding more to the last chapter. It sounds ridiculous, though, and now I'm glad he didn't finish it. He would've had the protag reconnect with his family, evidently through some kind of deus ex machina type of event. I think the ambiguity of what lay ahead, but nonetheless continuing forward toward the happy life that had evaded him all along is a much better ending. Finding and making nice with his family seems not just unnecessary, but incongruent with the rest of the work.

>>8547461
ah thank you

If you hate your dad, letter to his father will be a stunner book.

>>8547394
don't be so impatient

>>8547551
My dad died when I was just a boy, is it still worth reading?

>>8546395
>merely because of skeptical of any biographical interpretations
In general? Regarding The Castle or Kafka? What about Kafka's relationship with his father? Someone's biography is essential in understanding someone's art, person, etc., and isn't this especially true in Kafka's case? I agree that one should be wary of copy pasting someone's biography to their works though.

>>8547551
I don't have the same relationship with my dad at all, but that letter made me cry bad. It's by far the most devastating thing I've ever read. It's no fiction. Knowing how Kafka felt, and how brilliantly and effective (as always) he illustrates just how stuck and unhappy he was. It's basically a thesis proving that he is completely miserable, stuck and lost. And there's no melodrama, combined with the Kafka-storytelling makes it all more effective.

>>8547908
Absolutely, though maybe not if you're just beginning to read his works. I read it after all his published short stories and Prozess and Verschollene. Kafka's works are the only stories that are haunting to me, forcing you to think about them long after you've read them, when you're lying in bed for example, and reading many of them before the letter creates a sort of mythological, intangible status to Kafka himself and his stories. Vaguely knowing he had issues with his father, felt miserably, etc. makes you wonder and think about how to interpret his works. After reading his letter you realise and get to know important stuff, and the stories become even more haunting. At least that was my experience, and it was probably the most profound literary experience I have had.

My favourite writer.

Threads like these are why I still come here

Do you guys know what the deal was with Kafka and sexuality? What is it supposed to 'mean' that most women throw themselves on his protagonists? Kafka probably had some sexual frustrations himself but is there some explantion outside of the biographical one?

>>8548047
Women loved the Kafka, he always had flings and had a fiance but he backed out of marrying her multiple times, thinking he couldn't be a worthy husband or be the patriarch of a family. But he was pretty normal in that regard, just a bit neurotic.

>>8548057
So you're saying it was just a reflection of Kafka's real life interactions with women? Isn't there something deeper to it?

>>8548063
He probably just saw women as real people, not as some idealistic male fantasy, so he wrote them to have some actual character and motives. They're always interesting and well thought out, and there's something elusive, manipulating and mysterious about their actions. Kafka just didn't quite understand them and was afraid of getting to close or living the life of his father I guess. But yeah, he wasn't frustrated, so I think the interaction with them just reflects his personal experience.

I red Metamorphosis in high school and remember it as something distinguishly different in literature.

Just bought "Castle" and excepting a lot from it.

>>8548083
I would recommend reading Trial first.

>>8548096

Is it really beneficial to read Trial first for the better understanding of his other works or?

>>8548115
Not really, but it is superior to the Castle imo and it deals with similar themes. Castle, also due to its maybe somewhat excessive length, is more likely to give you an unsatisfied feeling, making you less inclined to read his other work. Trial is a must read anyway.

>>8548141
The Trial has the better setpieces but I enjoyed the Castle more for it's atmosphere

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OP here. So I finished Metamorphosis, The Penal Colony and Chapter 1 of The Trial. I'm really enjoying his work, he is becoming one of my favourite authors. Such a shame he died so young, imagine what he could have written with another 40 years

>>8548197
Imagine if his friend actually burned all of his work.

>>8548163
Hmm, all right. I thought the Trial's setpieces (which as you say has better setpieces) served the fragmentary nature of the novel immensely. What I also find interesting is how the Trial manages to create a 'castle' that seeps into world and everyday life. The execution, discussion, delivery and intangibility of the external force, Gesetz, etc. was more effective to me, and K's character in the Trial and ((the consequences of) his actions in) his struggle and therefore themes and thoughts were more interesting as well. It is interesting how Castle has other people (e.g. the girl and messenger) besides K are affected by the castle and Schuld and Strafe, but I prefer K's situation in the Trial, who is more alone, and not knowing how similar problems have concluded in other people's lives produces a nice effect as well. Same goes for K's efforts and how people react, understand and help regarding his trial. Trial was much more memorable imo, as well as Kafka's storytelling and selection of developments. To me Trial was much more profound and more perfect.

>>8548163
>>8548221
I forgot to ask, could you please elaborate on your thoughts, why you think so etc.?

>>8544844
The Trial. Just do it.

The Trial is great, abstruse persecution, some funny bits.

>>8548221
In all honesty, I do believe that the Trial is the better book but I just reacted more to the Castle.
In the Trial the MC is persecuted by an incomprehenseble system that slowly forces the MC to remove himself from his place in society in his struggle to overcome the system.
And the Castle is about a man trying to join a new society (another incomprehensible system with countless invisible rules) and his struggles to do so with him finding much resistance but also, as you said, allies.

And personally I identify more with the second story. Maybe because where I'm at in my life and maybe I'll appreciate the Trial more later in life.

Unrelated ti the argument, I had an idea whilst reading Trial, it seemed to me that the trials process has parellels with the progression of an incurable disease. Slowly getting worse, seemingly incomprehenseble in causation, with the patient striving to overcome it and ultimately losing to it whilst having found peace with the loss. Which is funny knowing that Kafka had TB (and died of it). Not that I see this as some definite interpretation, just a thought.

I'm kind of stunned at this thread. In a good way. I haven't read any Kafka, which stories and translations should I start with?

>>8548589
The short stories >>8546206 suggests are a great starting point

>>8548580
Hmm, interesting thought. Though I don't see the 'progression' of his trial to be increasingly deteriorating. Ocassionally his trial is 'looking good,' and K is told how some advances were made in his favour, which makes the Gesetz and his trial truly incomprehensible, near and far. That is why I think K's efforts and their consequences are fascinating, especially in Trial. Anyway, what Camus said about the Trial is pretty accurate: "The Trial offers everything and confirms nothing."

>>8548589
I would read Metamorphosis, Penal Colony, or Trial first, and all of them before advancing to others. Then Judgement, Country Doctor, Hunger Artist. Amerika, letter to his father or Castle. End with unpublished stories. It also helps to read the introduction on wikipedia sites per book, because there are some interesting and important biographical notes on it, e.g. Country Doctor: "Kafka dedicated the collection to his father. He often recounted to Max Brod the reaction of his father when he presented it to him: "Lay it on my nightstand." " Also helps to read analysis of the short stories, especially in Country Doctor, because what he's doing there is very impressive and will fly over your head.

No idea about translations, but if you're Dutch, read it in Dutch. With Kafka, be sure to get a great translation, because even in Dutch so much is lost, it's unbelievable.

>>8547498
>>8547477
So you admit it's unfinished and better for being unfinished.

>>8548047>>8548057
>>8548063
>>8548073
Kafka = ladies' man
that's pretty much it

>>8548862
He did visit a lot of brothels, though.

>>8547477
>Max Brod
This guy went in and changed Kafka's work after his death. Look it up.

>>8547993
While I think you're right in the respect that an element of a story may obviously stem from the author's history/biography (Virginia Woolf's philosophy professing father, Kafka's alienation, etc), I hesitate to ascribe overarching ideas to entire works based off of biographical information. For instance, I would hesitate to say that The Castle is a manifestation of Kafka's feelings of alienation while living in Germany. This type of totalizing, historical criticism can run you into trouble and has been, for the most part, cast aside as a method of interpretation in studies of criticism.

While I agree with you to some degree, I think analyzing a work outside of the author's biography has benefits.
>>8548063
While I can't attest to know exactly what he does with women in his works, I think there is something broader than the idea that it merely reflects his personal interactions. For instance, when you look at the interactions he has with women in the Trial and The Castle, they're diversions from the journey and infuriating diversions at that. While scenes prior to his brief fling with his lawyer's maid in the trial are meticulous and lengthy, his frisson with the maid SEEMS quick. Yet, he's there for hours, leaving his lawyer waiting and jeopardizing his position. Similarly, the inn woman (i think) in the Castle keeps K. from meeting the Count and ostensibly hinders his progress. Even in Amerika, the large woman is seen as a warden who keeps the protagonist from leaving her apartment. In all cases, women seem to occupy the minds of the protagonist and represent some unavoidable, inevitable diversion from achieving something. Further, they seem to carry some supernatural weight, for time slips and logic seems to dissolve in their presence. Now, that's not to say that Kafka hated women. Rather, I think he valued sexuality and utilized its power in his novels.

Just a friendly recommendation to read the Muir translations of all his works.

I love searching his works for those dream-logic bits. For example in the Penal Colony the general explains to him in detail what the discussion with the gouverneur is going to be and it's like the protagonist really stands there in that discussion. Just like a dream, Kafka uses pictures instead of abstractions.

>>8544902
Kafka is seen as an outsider and aliented by society, why? He was apparently popular at work and was the boses right hand man

>>8549365
See:
>>8546395

He was an outsider in Germany, for he was Czech. He was Jewish, yet didn't assimilate into the Jewish culture. However, because he was Jewish, he was excluded by other groups. He failed to take over his father's position in his work and, thereby, his family viewed him as an outsider as well.

He was alienated socially, nationally, religiously, and in terms of his family. He didn't fit any preconceived character requirement for any particular group and was consequently excluded.

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>>8549397
>alienated
I know that feeling.

Here are his sketches from the wonderful Kafka Museum in Prague.

>>8549397
He was an outsider everywhere:
Nobody liked him because he was Jewish
Jews didn't like him because he didn't act jewish enough
Germans didn't like him because they saw him as czech
Czechs didn't like him because they saw him as German

>>8549397
Kafka lived in Germany?

>>8549460
It's an easy mistake to make since he wrote in German and is always referred to as a German writer, you're right in that he didn't, he lived in Austria-Hungary & what today would be the Czech Republic.The wonders of Google.

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>>8546627

>>8547993
What do you think about Borges?

>>8548047
he once wrote that women are supposed to be a symbol for what the world expects of us. What we're supposed to settle for. He was a real medieval ascetic & he saw women as people who tempt men away from spiritual purity

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Just picked this up, this has to be one of my favorite covers

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Best cover.

>>8549610
Like Kafka, an extraordinary writer. It's very obvious that Borges was influenced by him, which is perhaps most evident in Beim Bau der Chinesischen Mauer. Definitely one of my favourite writers, but I prefer Kafka. Kafka also happens to be one of Borges' favs.

>>8551174
The Ungeziefer should never have been pictured in any way, shape or form.

>>8550716
Looks great.

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>>8550716
>tfw Anno is the Kafka of the 21st century

>>8551587
Why would a non German study Kafka? What are you even trying to accomplish.

>>8551646
I'm Dutch and I read Kafka in German. I'm not studying him, not even literature, I just admire him and I like reading his books.

>>8551729
Oh that's nice, I like him myself, thought you were
>>8544902

>>8544844
>What's his best work?
In my opinion Amerika and The Castle are the best. However make sure to read 'In the Penal Colony' and 'The Judgment'.
'A country doctor' is very good read as well

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I have nearly finished the Trial. I have read Metamorphosis and The Penal Colony. What next? Preferably something short, I'm saving The Castle for later.

>>8553546
His published short stories, chonologically. >>8548796

>>8553546
What did you think of Trial?

>>8546627
>I secretly suspect that "the canon" is a totally arbitrary list
You suspected correctly. The idea of the canon implies an objective truth . Contemporary academia has really left the idea of the canon behind because it pushes out the diverse voices that make up literature.

>>8555037
anon I'm going to come in your mouth, hope that's ok with you

>>8544844
Reading this too. Im still on The Castle tho

>>8554998
I've finished it now, really enjoyed it.
The sense of senselessness and paranoia was portrayed very well, along with occasional black humour.
The prose was comfy to read, like most of Kafka's work.
Compared to Metamorphosis, it's difficult to say which I prefer, they are both excellent.

>>8554853
Thanks, will do

>>8556657
bump

>>8558042
bump

>>8558057
bump

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>>8544844
>The prose isn't exceptional but it is comfy and enjoyable to read.

lol

>>8546395
>calls himself a Kafka scholar
>No sign of Walter Benjamin interpretation and analysis of the castle in this longwinded explanation
> for K's immediate exclusion is predicated upon the identity ascribed to him

>identity ascribed to him
You got the most basic thing about the castle wrong. My god, when will pseuds on this board kill themself

I have the old Schocken collection. It is very good.

It's not as representative of Kafka's main work, but I am particularly fond of his "In The Penal Colony", which should be in that collection. But try "The Castle".