The Brothers K

>>8502408
You shouldn't read anything translated by a woman

>>8502408
Yeah P&V are the masters of Dost, dont let butthurt faggots who wasted their time with inferior translations tell you otherwise

>>8502423
This

>>8502420
>tips
I mean fuck women. But fuck you too.

>>8502427
woman detected

>>8502427
Numale retard detected. Do you honestly think a woman can comprehend Dostoyevsky or great literature in general as well as a man? Don't kid yourself

>>8502435
>>8502441
holy shit haha. I'll have you know no Nu male and I'm certainly not a woman. I've heard over and over p&v is the best translation. Before I came hear I read Crime and Punishment translated by Sidney Monas I believe and then after skimming through a p&v translation I realized my errors. I just wanted to comfirm that its the best translation for this book as well because I remember someone telling me to stay away from it. Also, if your gonna just fucking shitpost at least suggest another translation.

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>>8502408
Avsey wrote the best translation for The Karamazov Brothers.

>>8502420
Shit bait, but many of my favorite translations have been written by women.

Mirian Schwartz' Oblomov translation is masterful. Much better than Magarshack

>>8502460
>your gonna shitpost
you are disqualified from literature

>>8502460
You should focus more on your own comprehension than on Translation.

Talking about translation is mostly a pseudo intellectual pursuit, like talking about the conductor of an orchestra. If you can't stand the way it's written, it's fine.

>>8502420
>>8502435
>>8502441
Must be a wizard holiday.

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>>8502485
>He corrects peoples grammar on 4chan

>>8502488
>like talking about the conductor of an orchestra
confirmed for never having played in an orchestra

>>8502408
Avsey > PV

Norton critical editions released an annotated Brothers K that I haven't read much about but it should be great considering its a reupholstered translation and it's very recent.

Im planning on reading the Avsey then Norton's

Is Garnett really that bad? I read crime and punishment (garnett trans) and greatly enjoyed it. i have a garnett brothers karamazov but i'm wondering whether i should get the avsey?

>>8502473
>The Karamazov Brothers

Even the title is soulless, the Russian syntax is perfect

>>8502408

Good translations of Karamazov include:
* David Megashark (the best old one)
* Andrew MacAndrew (somewhat free but faithful)
* Ralph Matlaw's revision of Constance Garnett (like if Garnett had been diligent in the first place)
* David McDuff (a good newer one)
* Ignat Avsey (the best newer one)

>>8502601
so P&V is bad? Really. I'm hearing mixed opinions everywhere. not just here.

>>8502604
P&V are soulless translators. yes they're accurate but they're like fucking computers. no wonder /lit/ loves to praise them.

>>8502604
This nigga doesnt know shit, just throwing titles around

>>8502605
>>8502606
F U C K

One article praises P&V as the best thing to happen on this god given earth and another destroys them saying Avsey is better.

Same thing happens here. FUCK

>>8502614
The answer is here already, the question is whether you want Dostoevsky close to his actual meaning and style (P&V) or do you want an anglicized fan adaption of his work that may be more "palatable"

>>8502628
How unfaithful is Avsey?

>>8502604

Each of them is only competent in their native language. Their method consists of her making a very wooden attempt in English and then of him (proud of his lack of Russian) cleaning it up so it's grammatical. On the surface their approach would seem to reduce translational problems, but their gaps really just add extra opportunity for problems like mangled idioms. It's like a double translation really; think of the telephone game and how each step hurts the message.

>>8502649
Their translation of demons was pretty good, and the paper they printed it on was so good it made my dick hard

Not Dosto, but I bought the Modern Library Garnett translation of Anna Karenina from Books-A-Million because it was cheaper and less gay-looking than the P&V, and the fucking cover has a blurb from Nabokov praising the novel itself, with a section for commentary from various authors including a bit by Nabokov shitting on the Garnett translation. Thought that was funny

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>>8502601
Is that guy's last name really Megashark?

>>8502408
I'll tell the same story I tell every time:
My Russian prof (an American who learned it as his second language) and another prof in the department (a Russian who learned English as a second language) made it a project to read the books they had been teaching in their Russian lit class in various translations. In most occasions they decided P&V was the best choice for the class. The books thehy agreed on P&V for were
>Anna Karenina
>The Brothers K
>Dead Souls
They disagreed on The Master and Margarita, but I forget who sided for/against.
Their conclusion was that English speakers who have no knowledge of Russian have no business speaking with any degree of authority about the quality of a translation, regardless of whatever excuse they provide. This is directed at Helen Andrews article, of course.

>>8502640
It's not a matter of how "faithful", but by what dimension of faithfulness.

P&V's process consists of V transliterating the text from Russian directly to English. Then P goes in an polishes it, makes it readable. What you get is a very literal translation, linguistically speaking.

Avsey on the other hand translates in a way that is faithful to the "spirit" of Dostoyevsky. He writes what Dostoyevsky expresses, the meaning of it, not the literal words.
Avsey is much smoother, and much more accessible in understanding Dostoyevsky's heart. I'm not interested in reading a Russian interpretation. Dostoyevsky is not acclaimed for his prose.

If you're still on the fence about it go on Amazon and read the first page of each, that alone should make the choice obvious to you.

>>8502797
You've been really helpful. most of you in this thread have. I'm gonna go on Amazon now and try them out.

>>8502753
but I got the penguin Dead Souls because it was supposed to be the best

>>8502420
*tips wizard hat

You dinks aren't well-read enough to get this haughty about translations.

>>8502804
no prob, familia. I was literally just on Amazon doing that last night.lol

If you manage to read the Oddo(?) re-translation from Norton's, post screencaps. I couldn't get it to work

>>8502590
>Russian Syntax in English

Meme arrows aside, the titles with Russian syntax are essentially odes to the earliest translations of the novel. Furthermore, changing the title will garner reactions similar to yours, so the Russian title stuck.

Avsey has been described as a "domesticating" translator. He made "The Brother's Karamazov" a truly English novel, hence the altered title. He has a great introduction in the book in which he argues for his choices. He nailed Dostoevsky's style. I've also read P&V and Magarshack translations of his works and Avsey is simply the best. I wish he translated more of his stuff.

>>8502797
There was a thread a while back comparing that one song in the book for every translation.

McDuff's was probably the funniest, and also the most crude with Avsey and MacAndrew coming in close second/third.

P&Vs was probably the worst of the bunch. And in this respect you can really see how faulty their method of translating is. They aren't unreadable, but I think /lit/'s reaction against them is a product of them being marketed so heavily.

>Just finished the Garnett translation

I loved the book anyway, didn't know it's the pleb tier translation.

>>8502408
>>8502423
>>8502604
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-pevearsion-of-russian-literature/

>Its another chapter where Alyosha, Ivan or Dmitri weep at something melodramatic and kiss each other.

>>8503303
>dmitri argues with poles: the chapter
>ivan argues with the devil: the chapter
>alyosha argues with a broken man: the chapter

best book imo

Just learn Russian lads. It's only a couple hours a day for a couple years and then you can read it in the original.

Я нe хopoшo гoвopю пo-pyccкий.
Я изyчaю эгo yжe чeтыpe мecяцeв

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>translations

I bought the P&V translation of Anna Karenina. Hold me /lit/ :(

>>8502408
The best chapters were with Alyosha and the children.

>>8503465
*мecяцa anon
Source: second native language

>>8503518

Thanks senpai. I'm still struggling with using the genitive plural properly.

>>8503505
Yeah, definitely. Book 10 is a masterpiece, better than TGI.

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TBK is the only big Dosto work that I've yet to read. Today my copy of the New Oxford Annotated Bible arrived and I already have my Avsey.
Considering the bible is considerably longer, would you recommend reading it first? Or is The Karamazov Brothers as enjoyable as C&P was without having read the bible?

>>8502585
it's pretty bad. Its readable, but Garnett was mainly concerned with churning stuff out as fast as possible so that it could be available, (which is an admirable pursuit) but she didn't have enough time or expertise to do a really good and nuanced job.

She gets a lot of shit she doesn't deserve, since without her, Russian lit wouldn't have nearly the impact in the English speaking world as it does. But in the current year, there's no really good reason to still read her (aside from price).

I like her opening to Notes from the Underground WAY better than PV. I read it first, but I still think it's superior.

"I am a sick man, I am an unattractive man, I think my liver is diseased."
>
"I am a sick man, I am an unattractive man, my liver hurts."

>>8502977
>that one song
>McDuff's was probably the funniest, and also the most crude with Avsey and MacAndrew coming in close second/third
It was actually MacAndrew that was the most crude, since the kaboom rhymes with 'blunt'.

>>8502690
>Is that guy's last name really Megashark?
It's Magarshack, but the universe has been more complete since someone around here referred to him as such.
He's definitely a better go-to name for older translations than is Garnett (like the Maudes are for Tolstoy).

>>8504187
Anyone? I'm reading both. I just want to know if I'm missing much going Dosto first.

>>8504187

You don't need a thorough familiarity with the Bible to enjoy Karamazov. You might look at the Gospel of John since that's the source of the verse (12:24) that's the scriptural basis for the book.

Something else that I think would be insightful for this book is to look at passages from the Pauline epistles where Paul speaks of himself, despite his outwardly righteous life as an observant Pharisee, as chief of sinners; I think that perspective informs Dostoyevsky's view of himself, including his decision to name the loutish father after himself (and the heroic son after his own son who died so young).

From a general standpoint as much as anything, Genesis-Exodus-Deuteronomy-Joshua is especially significant, as is Job, Ecclesiastes, Psalms, and at least one major (i.e., long) prophet (I recommend Isaiah), along with maybe Daniel, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. The Gospel of Matthew is good in particular for tying the OT and NT together. It's all beneficial though and recommended, but that can take some time.

>>8504287
>I am a sick man, I am an unattractive man
>unattractive
Garnett? She uses the word 'spiteful' here. (I had to double-check this since 'unattractive' would be an even worse word choice than is 'evil', which is what P&V very consciously but very wrongly go with. 'Spiteful' matches the theme of the book better [i.e., psychological/societal, not religious/moral].)

>>8502664
Garnett's translations are hopelessly outdated: she didn't know Russian well enough and sometimes would even skip words she didn't understand. Yet she did have a distinct writing style in English, and that's why her translations of Dostoevsky are not that bad, because Dostoevsky has no style at all in Russian, or should I say he has anti-style, that is he is as stylistically hopeless as it gets; he virtually paid no attention to how something is written, only to what. So a Dostoevsky novel in a Victorian-era-styled English translation reads better in English than in Russian.

As for Tolstoy, who is the third best stylist of the Russian literature in my opinion, you should definitely choose some other translator, one who conveys his own style more faithfully.

>>8504187
Avsey has very thorough notes so you'll catch biblical references. There is no need to read the bible before hand, especially if you grew up Christian (catholic/orthodox).

“He’s got round her,” Nastasia murmured, smiling slyly.
“Why don’t you put sugar in your tea, Nastasia Nikiforovna?”
“You are a one!” Nastasia cried suddenly, going off into a giggle. “I’m not Nikiforovna, I’m Petrovna,” she added suddenly, recovering from her mirth.

“He sweet-talked her,” Nastasya muttered, grinning mischievously.
“Put that into your tea, Nastasya Nikiforovna.”
“Go on, you dog!” Nastasya suddenly cried, and burst out laughing. “And I’m Petrovna, not Nikiforovna,” she added suddenly, once she stopped laughing.


‘He's sugared her up,’ Nastasya murmured, smiling a mischievous, ironic smile.
‘And you ought to put yours down in the cup where it belongs, Nastasya Nikiforovna.’
‘Oh, you rotten pig!’ Nastasya exclaimed suddenly, and burst out laughing. ‘Anyway, here – my name's Petrova, not Nikiforovna,’ she added suddenly, when she had stopped.


Garnett
P&V
McDuff

an example I remember looking up. illustrates Garnett/PeeVee pretty well, they give ye some headscratchers

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>>8504287
"Im a sick man, im a troubled one. I think im aching from my liver"

I dont know but i decided to read it,in catalan before spanish or english. I read it before and catalan can be more humorous when he was saying he was lying bc of malice and,stuff

>>8505406
I sort of like both Garnett and P&V based on this. The first one is aged, charming almost. The second is more natural sounding. The third one sounds awful.

i've heard russian is easier than english and low on the whatever-language-difficulty-measurement-scale-is-called

>>8506084

It's more phonetic than English, but it has a much more complicated case system

>>8504737
Thank you anon. I'll read the Gospel of John and enjoy TBK. After it I'll work on the bible and let that sweet retrospective do the work.

>>8505406
wtf I love Garnett now.

>>8505293
Who do you think are the first and second best Russian stylists?

>>8506084
pretty much what this >>8506253 anon said
pronunciation is easy seeing how Russian is (as far as I know) entirely phonetic. The case system fucks you in the ass though. There's fucking six different cases.

It really doesn't get better than McDuff, even though the physical quality of penguin books are garbage.

>>8502408
It's good. Any modern translation (~1970+) is fine. I've read multiple Dostoyevsky books from different translators, I liked all of them.

P&V hate is a meme brought about from their overwhelming popularity. Are they the saviors of Russian lit? No. Are they total trash? No. In my opinion they're very good, but everyone likes different things about translations and has different opinions about what reads and sounds better.

On a side note, what is up with this influx of "women can't write" and "nu-male" /pol/ and /tv/ style shitposting? If you really care about /lit/ then remember to not reply to threads and posts talking about that trash.

>>8503465
Ahh, I too am learning Russian. I almost am proficient in Latin as well.

At first glance many a man would consider Russian a language of barbarians and slaves - and who could blame them? To the refined Englishman's mind a sentence without linguistic articles is not a sentence at all.

But there is an ever so sweet, and concise pleasure from reading a sentence in Russian. The Cyrillic alphabet, the "Right-to-the-point" feeling, and the way certain letters roll off one's tongue.

It's admirable and distinguishable at that.

>>8505406

I prefer as follows:
>Nastasya's first words - McDuff
>Sentence after N's words - P&V
>Second paragraph - McDuff (it's too diluted, but I didn't catch the pun in the other two so I guess I needed that)
>Nastasya's exclamation and the next sentence in the third paragraph - McDuff
>Nastasya's last reply - P&V
>Last sentence - Garnett

Holy Christ-bearing Lady of Kazan, what do I do now guys?!

>>8506084
>russian is easier than english
Easier for who, anon?

>>8506253
>>8507458
>pronunciation is easy
>more phonetic than English
A language is not 'more phonetic' than another. Its writing system may be. This does not make the language easy to pronounce (again, easy for who?)

>six cases
Thank your luck Proto-Indo-European is out of fashion these days.

>>8507634
>a language of barbarians and slaves
Well, it is a language of barbarians and slavs.

>>8507656
>A language is not 'more phonetic' than another
No, but there are languages phonetically more beautiful than other languages. That's probably what he meant anyway.

>>8507656
>A language is not 'more phonetic' than another. Its writing system may be
oh good a pedant

while we're at it
>Easier for who
>for who
*pats you on your head*