Pessimism as the meaning of life.

Noir.

>>8476920
That's a good one, but I wouldn't say that applies equally across the genre. Some noir is more like Shakespeare's mindset: artistic portrayal of abject pessimism, but not really garnering a source of life from this. I think this is Polanski's mindset (who is clearly a moral nihilist); his Chinatown is the same worldview as his Macbeth.

Noir writings are, to me, in the vein of Lovecraft and Ligeti, which is more the King Lear pessimism than the Ecclesiastes pessimism.

>>8476938

You're bandying around terms that don't mean anything to anyone other than yourself. No one knows what you mean when you distinguish "King Lear pessimism" from "Ecclesiastes pessimism."

Lovecraft is not noir. Not even close.

Cutting away all the self-serving bullshit in your post, I'm only looking at your first sentence, in which you ask what are books pessimistic about life but also aesthetically portray it as beautiful. That's noir.

>>8476981
I think anyone who has read both King Lear and Ecclesiastes can tell the difference. King Lear is pessimistic because life is meaningless, whereas Ecclesiastics, starting from the premise that life is meaningless, ultimately finds meaning in the pessimism itself, paradoxically overcoming the source of the pessimism through the pessimism.

Lovecraft isn't noir, but his work has the same worldview as noir, absolutely. The only difference is that it is expressed through the supernatural.

>>8477002

Lovecraft has literally nothing to do with noir.
I don't think you understand what noir is.

>>8477012
Macbeth has literally nothing to do with noir either, I don't think you understand that I'm talking about underlying worldviews, not the style or subject matter of the writing itself.

>>8477032

I'm talking about underlying worldviews.
Lovecraft's essential view of the world is cosmic horror. How is that noir?

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>>8476918

> What are some books that are extremely pessimistic about life, but also portray it as beautiful (with the pessimism perhaps even part of the aesthetic)? That is, works that almost see life gaining meaning from pessimism

>>8477046
Because cosmic horror is a pessimistic reaction to variables as pointless. Or (as with the noir and King Lear worldview), where there is a point, that point is foreboding.

>>8477061
How is "it's better not to live" a meaning for life?

>>8477064

Lol.
Congrats on the worst description of cosmic horror I've ever seen, and that's saying something.
Pro-tip, if your description of something is in spirit the complete opposite of the something you are describing, you should probably reevaluate your description.

>>8477071
That's exactly what cosmic horror is though. Variables and unknowns are synonymous.

>>8477085

BEEP BOOP

>>8477085
To elaborate, both King Lear and cosmic horror seen life as very much ruled by variables. Both of them see these variables are horrific and even, from a certain perspective, malicious.

>As flies to wanton boys are we to th' gods,
>They kill us for their sport.

These variables reinforce the idea that life doesn't have a definitive structure or purpose, but is in itself just a variable.

>>8477097

Please stop.

>>8477113
You're free to correct me, it shouldn't be too hard. Lovegraft and noir are just genre fiction, they aren't exactly complex.

>>8477121

Are you autistic by any chance?

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>>8477123
No. Are you interested in actually posting something with substance?

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>>8477068

> How is "it's better not to live" a meaning for life?

Because, those books argue, such is the ultimate lesson to be learned from philosophical decryption of nature; that being is essentially suffering, that this miserable self-cannibalizing universe is only the manifestation of an original, inscrutable metaphysical imbalance - that there is no escape or redemption from unending desires within existence, so redemption can only come from rejection of existence. This philosophical system makes the most sense, deciphers the fullest meaning, of the spectacle of nature.

But if for something to "give meaning to life" means that it *justifies* existence rather than merely reveals its essence - something that would make it worth repeating, something that would attract us rather than abhor us - then Schopenhauer would ask why philosophy should have to provide a comforting answer to the riddle of existence.

>>8477149

If by substance you mean your autistic analyses, then no.
You do realize that lit crit is a creative activity, right?

>>8477157
Schop is an atheist, though. I'm not.

>>8476979
>Noir writings are, to me, in the vein of Lovecraft and Ligeti, which is more the King Lear pessimism than the Ecclesiastes pessimism.

I assume you mean Ligotti. Can you elaborate on what you think the differences between these are?

>>8477699
>>8476979
Nevermind, I continued into the thread and learned that you're an idiot.

>>8476918
This isn't exactly what you are looking for but Mono no Aware is somewhat similar. It looks at life as necessarily fleeting and embraces that.

>>8477717
Any particular novels to recommend concerning that?

>>8477706
Nothing wrong with that if you don't mind taking a chance. An idiot can still say something useful or wise, it's just when he does it is by coincidence instead of wisdom.

>>8476918
Schopenhauer's The World as Will and Representation is very well done, I think it's actually much better reading than Nietzsche who I used to study. Most of Beckett's work is influenced by Schopenhauer, his essay on Proust is basically Schopenhauerian philosophy. Many people have discounted Schopenhauer over the ages, but re-reading it I think he's a great interpreter of Kant, maybe one of the best, and that's worthwhile just there.

>>8477875
Schop doesn't really see pessimism as a source of life, though. He sees it as meaning it's better not to exist at all.

>>8477879
No, that's a misreading that is common. He essentially argues for a pessimistic life through an ascetic life which uses aesthetics to create bliss, without relying on God or religion. It's basically Buddhism, which has been denigrated similarly as a religion of resignation, when it really uses pessimistic views as a springboard into mindfulness and expression. The Japanese Zen Buddhist Hakuin is a good example there.

>>8477899
>“If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?

Seems pretty anti-existence to me.

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>>8477634

>Schop is an atheist, though. I'm not.

Very true - he did, though, offer very interesting interpretations and even praises to several major religions; he identified what he believed to be glimpses and kernels of moral and metaphysical truths "cloaked" in the popular imagery of religious myths. Despite some criticisms, he has great respect for the theisms of Hinduism and Christianity and (he argues) their pessimistic, world-denying characteristics.

Judaism and Islam, on the other hand, he didn't have such nice things to say about.

>>8477699
No, by the way, I mean Ligeti

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1lcZM0MNek

"I am not Catholic, I am of Jewish origin, but I do not follow any religion. I took the text of the requiem for its image of the anguish, the fear of the end of the world."

Ligeti's background to this is WWII Europe. His entire family, aside from he and his mother, were killed, and he himself went to a forced labor camp.

>>8476918
terrible thread so far

read:
dirty snow (simenon)
the golem (meyrink)
against nature (la bas)
the maimed (ungar)
aladdin's problem (junger)

as far as theory/philosophy there's bataille, cioran, adorno etc.

i don't know how many of these fit your set of interests but these are writers more or less invested in visions of negativity

>>8478071
So while Schop can grasp the overwhelming intensity of Christian pessimism, it doesn't mean to him what it does to a Christian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoyZtkrU0s

>>8478129
Thank you, I really appreciate it. I'll check them out.

>>8478143
:^)

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>>8478139

> it doesn't mean to him what it does to a Christian.

Of course not - just as it doesn't mean to a Christian what it means to a Schopenhauerian.

The point is only that his atheism didn't prevent him from offering interesting, unique, and perhaps valuable interpretations of theistic doctrines.