How did such a tiny country, occupied by foreigners for most

>have 1 (one) skilled writer over a period of 700 years
>WE DA BES

Briton here, loving every laugh

>>8364405
You only think so because they write in English and you're a monoglot pleb.

>>8364407
>1 (one)
Beckett, O'Brien, the list may or may not go on.

>>8364416
... Yeats, maybe?

>>8364405

>No national epic
>No meaningful songs beyond little ditties

Don't overrate it.

To my mind what you people have that really levels out the scales is one guy: Shakespeare.

There is no doubt your country has an immense literary history, filled with great lighthouses. However, Italy, Greece, Russia, France – all of them also have many great talents.

But Shakespeare is really a great weight. Many boats have captured lot of big tuna fishes, yet you guys had luck and caught a Leviathan too.

>>8364439

Oh, I thought it was Englad. Sorry. But Ireland is also great.

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>>8364423
Joyce, Beckett, Yeats, O'Brien, Swift, Heaney, Kavanagh, Wilde, O'Cadhain, William Trevor, Synge, Goldsmith, Sterne, Pat McCabe, Brendan Behan, Brian Friel, CS Lewis, O'Casey, McGahern, Le Fanu, and pic related hue

>>8364443
Come the fuck on.
Really?
You're giving all of us a bad name.

>>8364439

Shakespeare was a bunch of guys writing under a pseudonym

>>8364405
cos the weather is dreary as fuck and the gub'mint shits on you constantly, the neighbours are bollocks, the religion makes you feel bad for feeling bad, so you have fuck all else to do but git gud at writing.

Is my learned theory.

>>8364439

Gotta disappoint you m8, but Goethe > Shakespeare.

Why?

Because Shakespeare wrote the masses, first and foremost: the rabble, the plebs. Do not forget it. Shakespeare is a coal heap with a few good diamonds to be found throughout - that's what it had to be, to garner favour with the lower classes on whom his livelihood depended.

That is what Shakespeare wrote for, first and foremost - his daily bread. Not posterity, not eternity.

>>8364459
So you're saying that because Shakespeare wrote for the masses and still ended up with genius behind every word he put to paper, he's not as good as guys that wrote specifically to try and be geniuses?
Wew m8
You cracked it

>>8364423
Oh fuck, that was pleb of me to forget.

>>8364439
lol, ever heard of germany? goethe maybe?

>tfw Irish
>tfw barely scratched the surface of Irish lit
>tfw spend my days reading burger lit

I don't know how this happened to me.

>>8364456
more like the generally propagated meme

>>8364459

To each his one.

But to my mind Shakespeare verbal language is far more inventive and original than that of Goethe. He almost cannot think without using metaphors and imagery, and he is always either using traditional imagery in new ways or modeling new and bold metaphors, coined from his own experience.

Shakespeare created more characters, and tried to nest himself into a greater and more diverse forest of brains. Goethe does not leave his comfort zones as often as Shakespeare does.

I am a great fan of poetry, and after Shakespeare I have always fought to find the same fertility for metaphors and verbal images, the same exaggeration, the same experience of be drowning in an ocean. I have only very rarely succeeded in finding the same. Generally it happens in small places, in concentrated excerpts, in rare occasions. What happens all the time in Shakespeare is hard to encounter in other works.

Some examples would be the speech of God in the end of The Book of Job, some chapters of Moby Dick, some parts of Lolita, some parts of Memoirs of Hadrian, some poems of Blake (like The Tiger), some excerpts of Coleridge (parts of his poems), some parts of the great plays of Aeschylus, some lost poems like “Dulce et Decorum Est” or this small Kurt Vonnegut poem:

“love is a hawk with velvet claws
love is a rock with heart and veins
love is a lion with satin jaws
love is a storm with silken reins”

It is very hard to find the same exuberance of imagery. I hardly find it in Goethe. He is more classical, more organized, more measured, more marmoreal.

>>8364484
You became enlightened.
Don't fool yourself in to thinking you potatoe fuckers had anything useful to say.
"OI BRITS SUCK"
"OI I'm chaffin' under these Brit chains m8!"
"Brits really suck"
I mean.

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>>8364472

>still ended up with genius behind every word he put to paper

Empirically wrong.

>>8364496
>empirically wrong
Emphatically stupid.

>>8364509

Egregiously idiotic.

>>8364493
>potatoe
who let dan quayle in
also it's weird you'd say that, since most great irish lit isn't strictly about muh brits

>>8364449
you just listed every fucking writer and called them "the best"

fuck outa here

I saw a book at my local bookstore called "How the Irish saved civilization"......its been sitting on the shelf untouched

>>8364515
>egregiously idiotic
Entirely incompetent

>>8364516
Even Ulysses, arguably the greatest single Irish work, holds many allusions to the denial of English rule in Ireland.

>>8364518
no, I listed Irish writers who I consider great
there are more
>>8364520
it's about Irish monks preserving knowledge in the """"dark ages""""

>>8364542
>no, I listed Irish writers who I consider great
pretty sure you listed every irish writer that ever existed and will exist within this side of the universe and just called them the best to "prove" that Ireland has good writers.
It's like me listing every nigger that has ever lived and say Africa has good writers (it probably has, too)

>>8364530
Fucking gay

>>8364556
I didn't list Bram Stoker, Frank O'Connor, Lady Gregory, plenty of others that could be considered great
and yes, I did it to prove that Ireland has a lot of great writers, to counter a claim that there were only 1-3

>>8364556
Not even who you're replying but he didn't even mention Dominic Behan or GB Shaw (who, even if I don't like, is still a widely recognized and praised author, for some reason)

>>8364520
i actually have this book, i to have never read it.

>>8364556
>It's like me listing every nigger that has ever lived and say Africa has good writers (it probably has, too)
what did he mean by this

>>8364556
P L E B

>>8364437
Táin Bó Cúailnge is the national epic. You are probably thinking of England with the borrowed (and really quite late) Beowulf.

As is OP with the >>8364405
>occupied by foreigners for most of its history
The most that happened to Ireland were some viking settlements that were more trading outposts than anything, even the English primarily used the Scottish (who are descended from Irish in large) to fuck shit up.

>>8364542
>no, I listed Irish writers who I consider great
Considering how desperately the English try to misappropriate most of them I'd say it was a p decent list.

>>8364405
Western literature? No

English literature? Yes

>>8364405
WE

>>8364437
>>No national epic
Táin Bó Cuailnge is the national epic, though I prefer Agallamh na Seanórach

>>No meaningful songs beyond little ditties
I can show you some if you like?

>>8364487
bloom pls

>>8365274
wuz ard rí

>>8365271
Beckett wrote some of the best French literature there is too.

>>8365276
are you an Irish speaker?

>>8365276
>Agallamh na Seanórach
There's also stuff like Navigatio Sancti Brendani, so there's even an Odyssey parallel (probably a rip off desu but hey, we still grew a monstrous tulip).

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>>8365279
> wizardry

>>8365310
damn...

>>8365278
Bloom is fucking mental about Shagspire

>>8365285
I would argue he's top 3. But he was ostensibly a French writer, i dont know how much you can take credit for him as an Irish novelist. He needed to immerse himself in French language and culture in order to stop writing Finnegans Wake fanfic.

>>8365315
he invented the human, anon
all your thoughts are from shakespeare

>>8365319
>i dont know how much you can take credit for him as an Irish novelist.
I'm smelling desperation here.

>>8365322
After saying shit like that and writing that Gnostic fantasy, why does he pretend the most embarrassing thing in his career is that fucking list of books in the Western Canon

>>8365340
yeah good call.. lolita is a Russian novel and Heart of Darkness is Polish literature

>>8365348
true

his greatest contribution to literature is the rowling copypasta and 'no discernible talent'

>>8365319
probably because he was from ireland desu

>>8365315
Dude you don't get it. Shakespeare is litetally the reason why English is the lingua franca of the world

>>8365375
Conrad's work is viewed in the English canon, not Polish.

>>8365360
Finnegans Wake is Swiss French, The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists is Bohr and the Journals of Lewis and Clarke is Native American.

Let's be clear tho, Beckett wasn't some passive agent who got filled first with Joyceness then with Frenchness, he instead injected an Irish spirit into the French existentials. He was his own man.

>>8365379
he singlehandedly invented english

>>8365397
Not just English but our actual civilised conscious minds. We fucks didn't even have souls before our Bard and saviour William Shakespeare wrote them into existence.

Part of it has to do with the strong bardic tradition, poetry and storytelling wasn't just an activity for elites and the bourgeois but a working class peasant communal activity after a days work

>>8364449
>no Jem Casey

>>8365397
I want some interviewer to ask Bloom if colonialism was worth it just to spread Shakespeare.

>>8365442
Meant to quote >>8365408

>>8365429
>>no Jem Casey

a pint of plain is your only man

>>8365379
I think the British navy had more to do with it than Shakespeare
that and they did try to set up schools to make a middle class of professionals in the colonies they were exploiting

nothing else to do

>>8365608
>the British navy had more to do with it than Shakespeare
Get your resentment out of my literature.

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>>8364405

>Be Irish
>Write in english

>>8366066
>be Irish
>write in Latin before you write anything lasting in Gaelic

>>8364536
Er, yeah, because Joyce was a Marxist nationalist hipster fuck. Ulysses is better liked abroad too, and much like U2 isn't considered the finest work just shit for tourists and Dublin wankers.

>>8364550
>Calling Normans Anglo
lol, wtf

>>8364405

english

>>8366271
Hiberno-English isn't real English
e.g: Hiberno-English "I will, yeah", translated to UK English is "No, I'm never doing that"

>>8366298
your point?

>>8366324
you'll miss a whole bunch of subtext even if you only read the works originally in "English"

>>8366227
>Joyce was a Marxist nationalist
You misspelt anarchist cosmopolitan.

>>8366719
You didn't read his letters or even Portrait? Or do you just assume the book agrees with your retarded opinions if /lit/ memes it enough?

>>8364405
Because of the foreigners

>>8366747
>Or do you just assume the book agrees with your retarded opinions if /lit/ memes it enough?
>implying I'm quoting my own opinion
I think the originator is John Middleton Murray, but one of those essays you get in those cheap penguin paperbacks at the start of Dubliners calls him an "anarchist cosmopolitan" outright.

I think the problem a lot of people have with reading him as bona fide nationalist is Irish nationalism being way less insular than the nationalisms of other cultures.

>>8366767
why would you quote a critic who's wrong? maybe your own ideas would be less shit.

Marxism in Ireland also means a different thing to even the 4th International splitters, because most of the leaders there had split at the 2nd, and you have internal battles between people like Connolly and Griffith.
Joyce eventually gave up on Marxism, but he was a renowned nationalist even past the early Marxist nationalism.
Retarded critic is retarded. He's not an anarchist at all, and being cosmopolitan would involve admitting the English are people too.

For a nationalist he sure spends a lot of time in Ulysses mocking nationalism.

Irish here. You cannot deny Ireland's best writers were anglos, often with rich English Anglican parents who just moved to Dublin or something. This is why I don't get this anti-Brit mentality except, like a lot of others things admittedly, we steal from them.
>they identify as Irish
That's all well and good, but you know that without the British cultural impact on these people there would be fuck all good literature from this wee country.
Donegal, btw.

>>8366827
I seriously fucked that post up but whatever it is late on my holidays and I am tired and can't sleep due to fucking heat. Wanna go home

>>8366827
Myles na gCopaleen tho
>>8366821
>mocking nationalism
Catholic nationalism, not nationalism itself. It's why he calls it "the epic of two nations", even though neither Ireland nor Israel existed as nations while he was publishing it.

>>8366827
I mean, apart from obvious Anglo Irish folks like Swift most of our great writers are real Irish. Joyce's family were from Cork I think

>>8366857
I think his dad was from Fermoy. I guess after they had Graham Norton, they switched to that instead of "Joyce's dad". Frank O'Connor's from Cork City, and I'd think they're not too busted up about Dublin claiming Joyce.

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>>8365293
>are you an Irish speaker?
not natively but I can read in Irish

>>8365303
>so there's even an Odyssey parallel
It's probably not a rip off, though it may have been influenced. "Immrama" were a whole class of story, and Eachtrae were similar.

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>>8366827
Wilde, Yeats, Swift, Burke, Beckett and probably a few others were Anglo-Irish

Joyce, Heaney, Flann O' Brian, Merriman, Raftery, and Ó Cadhain were Gaelic Irish

CS Lewis was an Ulster Scot I think as was James Orr, I'm sure they've a couple others under their belt.

Tinkers obviously have nothing.

>This is why I don't get this anti-Brit mentality except, like a lot of others things admittedly, we steal from them.
I'm not one to lament the history of the English in Ireland (besides the damage done to the language I don't give a shit) but I don't think that's a fair assessment. If anything it would be the Anglos stealing from our mythology, though that's not fair either since they identified with the Irish nation which had been multi-confessional since at least 1798, and multi-ethnic since much much earlier.

>That's all well and good, but you know that without the British cultural impact on these people there would be fuck all good literature from this wee country.
Fuck all English language literature, sure. I won't speculate on what could have been because that's pointless but if you look before the 18th century the vast majority of Irish literature belonged to the Gaelic, Catholic classes. Even after the Irish aristocracy had been banished the majority of high culture was gaelic in nature, as were the artistic classes. By the late 18th century the Anglo-Irish started to take over, largely due to the extreme poverty and illiteracy among the Catholic population.

>>8364405
Because it looks like a parrot

>>8364536

A lot of Ulysses disavows the Irish nationalist movement though, same for much of Joyce's stuff.

>>8366821
Nobody in Ireland thinks Joyce was nationalist, he was a cosmopolite middle class Jackeen

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Is O'Malley the Ernst Junger of Ireland?

>>8366775
>why would you quote a critic who's wrong? maybe your own ideas would be less shit.
I'm pretty opposed to labelling in a lot of instances so the whole concept of attributing such and such ism to Joyce doesn't factor in for my thinking. I treat it more as a bit of anthropology of academia.

>and being cosmopolitan would involve admitting the English are people too.
Uh, it's not as straightforward as that but I don't think you're miles off the mark. He writes with tact on the idea of the Anglo Irish and the tendency for them to be pretenders to being the true Irish (more Irish than the Irish themselves), and that the concept of racial purity/being old Irish is tacitly ridiculous to the Irish world view. He also talks about the invitation of one of the King Henries over. While it's written like "don't forget we invited the English in" it does make me wonder if it's more about the Irish cosmopolitan spirit that Joyce was a part of. Joyce of course spent most of his life libing abroad, and in general it wasn't/isn't unusual for Irish to go off and do something like Orwell in Catalonia but more wholeheartedly. I wonder if Joyce didn't see himself in that a bit.

>>8366874
>It's probably not a rip off, though it may have been influenced.
It's better anyway (inb4 triggered). The Greeks made a big deal about going around the Mediterranean in a pretty snazzy boat, whereas Brendan has an entire ocean and goes around in something incredibly basic.

>>8366914
>Tinkers obviously have nothing
Didn't that boxing guy write an autobiography?

"Write" an autobiography.

>>8367079
I think you could describe him as a liberal Nationalist in that of course he believed Ireland should be self-governing but he had little time for the kind of cultural nationalism as espoused by Yeats and the 1916 rebels. His perpective was more universal, which is why I guess Dublin always fascinated him as a cosmopolitan city of Empire, although he became proficient in many languages, Gaeilge was never one, it didn't consider it important enough

>>8367105
The Furey's are excellent

Tinker's don't value education, which is why they've never produced much literature

>>8367116
>but he had little time for the kind of cultural nationalism as espoused by Yeats and the 1916 rebels.
Yeah, although I think the marxist nationalist guy is pointing towards what happened politically with that lot where most of them went towards a kind of communist ideology. And I don't think Joyce would have been opposed there, not on any meaningful way (although in some ways that was a move towards Joyce's liberal thinking). I've noticed a few more nationalist readings of Ulysses and FW popping up on here and a lot are convincing imo too.

A sort of pet project I'm working on is seeing if there's a strand of Irish style imperialism that Joyce was hinting at. It's incredibly revisionist tho, but atm it seems history has a tendency to view Ireland as a world cultural force and for that you need a seriously selective reading of evidence.

>>8367132
>history has a tendency to view Ireland as a world cultural force
I'm not sure how I was going to word it but I meant the opposite of that. Like the whole "Celts had no culture" and "nothing happened in Ireland until the English came" sort of things.

>>8367132
I don't think there was any strong inclination towards a marxist ideology in the wider nationalist movement, apart from Connolly's small socialist faction it was still heavily based on the Romantic and Cultural Nationalism of the Young Irelanders, Fenianism and the Celtic Twilight/Irish language movement/GAA. They were more socialist in the Spenglerian sense of the total/communitarian essense than they were in the contemporary marxist sense. Joyce verved towards the more modern/individual/liberal/universal which put him largely at odds with Irish Nationalism. I don't much about Joyce's views towards Communism/Marxism but I don't think he was much concerned about it neither

>>8367155
>They were more socialist in the Spenglerian sense of the total/communitarian essense than they were in the contemporary marxist sense.
That was my thoughts too p much.

I think from my own experience the left wing side is downplayed, tho it didn't take off like the romantic side for sure. Good post btw.

>>8367155
>>8367132
>>8367116
>>8367079
Good posts 2bh phamme, I don't know how this thread went from shitposting to decent but I'm glad it did.

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Fuck Engalond! Post Welsh, Scottish, and Irish literature!

>>8367186
>>8367186
The marxist side is highly overplayed in my view, I come from a Republican family and community in the North and like to probe the history. While Irish nationalism is certainly left orientated (in the anti-capitalist sense), the grassroots were and still are today primarily focused on the Nation as an organic entity for organisation. I went to the independent Rising commeration in Dublin a few months ago, mostly Northern republicans disillusioned with the electoral politics (read: largely conservative catholic sensibilities), with a small smattering of clueless libearl-leftists (you can pick them out with their unashamed pot bellies and multicoloured hair) trying to ape the legacy of 1916 for their own. Connolly was and is a huge inspiration for Irish Nationalism but that is precisely because he was proponent of the ROmantic/Cultural Nationalism that preceded him. This is precisely the kind of Nationalism that Joyce was never associated with in middle class Dublin society

>>8367201
Actually can't think of much Welsh apart from Dylan Thomas

>>8367087
>It's better anyway (inb4 triggered). The Greeks made a big deal about going around the Mediterranean in a pretty snazzy boat, whereas Brendan has an entire ocean and goes around in something incredibly basic.
Ah now I don't think it's fair to say it's better. Navigatio Sancti Brendani isn't even the best Immram, Immram Máele Dúine is better.

>>8367233
Welsh Mythology is GOAT tier.

>>8367079
>more Irish than the Irish themselves
this is an older meme than Joyce. It's applied to Normans though, who are different to Angles, and mostly Scandi via France and Wales. They're not considered English or Anglo, and it's sort of a dig against those two to say the Normans preferred to marry in Ireland and turn their backs on the mission the English gave them.

Joyce does a lot of Marxist quoting and analysis around English imports and how Irish people are hypocritical to claim nationalism while relying on the English for tea etc. because that's a commodities theory, not a nationality debate. Anything in a market in his earlier works is generally a Marxist comment on British imperialism, and most food references are also linked to class politics. The problem is, you'd have to be au fait with the distinctions of race, class, politics and so on which are present in Ireland at the time, and most people aren't going to do that.
Even now in Ireland a lot of people link the English-Irish divide as always having been religious, so why Joyce is against the Catholic nationalism that shaped the later violence, but still pro-nationalism is lost on them because they can only think of Catholic nationalism.

Joyce was pretty disappointed in Ireland as things developed. Not just because he abandoned Marxism but because the Free State compromise comes out just after Ulysses: having written an Irish epic to see the country only partially gain independence made a lot of people upset and reject the Free State because it was not their kind of nationalism that won. He didn't become more cosmopolitan, he just became more enraged and disappointed at the other nationalists.

>>8367116
>although he became proficient in many languages, Gaeilge was never one, it didn't consider it important enough
He didn't really. He went to Gaelic league meetings to learn Irish, and got fed up with them moving at too slow a pace. He tried studying Irish by himself, but didn't become proficient because it's a difficult language to learn proficiency without context and immersion. Some of his associates (like Flann) were proficient and native speakers and he didn't want to make beginner mistakes in front of them. Keep in mind this is the guy who used start shit in bars and then yell "deal with him Hemingway" so he often tries to convince people he's proficient where he's not.

He never got out of "thinking in English" which shows when he does try other languages. He uses Norwegian from a phrasebook because it creates a pun in English; he never gets past the point of being able to write fan letters to Ibsen. He writes Finnegans with a type of mixed Irish-English that shows he's still thinking in English, but what he's trying to do is imitate the mixed Irish-English that native Irish speakers produce; Flann mocks him after that because, while he was an uberfan at first, Flann's a native speaker and linguist who could see what a fuck up that was if your audience speaks both.

>>8367225
>While Irish nationalism is certainly left orientated (in the anti-capitalist sense), the grassroots were and still are today primarily focused on the Nation as an organic entity for organisation.
I agree, I think it's that I'm coming from an Anglo perspective here on how history is portrayed. Brits seem to need to pretend there's no real Celtic identity in Ireland beyond a 19th C fad and that the whole movement is traditionalist in the same way as the British conservatives, so not left wing.

From my own family, I feel like the movement was more pragmatic than ideological, that needing a free Irish state was taken for granted and because of cultural repression over long periods of time it was generally felt the romantic aims were more in line in forming a working state. It's also that side that in large part has given Irish international presence through St Patrick's day, Irish pubs and dancing, music etc (for better or for worse), and that was really key against an imperialist enemy. Again, this is probably a response to the fad thing above, but it's important for me to note that romanticism wasn't an indoctrination but more in line with what people wanted in general.

The only other thing, I forget which Taoiseach it was but the radical use of European development monies is a big thing with my lot. So the whole going straight to high tech phone lines and skipping intermediate stages. That's spenglerific. I think.

Interesting to hear the different groups at work at the moment tho.

>>8367317
I'm going to have to look into this more but nice post. I can see there's great pains often to use Saxon instead of English in a lot of the Irish nationalist songs and such, and I've been at a bit of an impasse in working out the deal with shit like Baldrism. So hopefully some will get cleared up there.

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>>8364405
>they don't know about the Hibernian conspiracy

gigglinggael.illumination

>>8364439
>>8364443
God dammit, America

>>8367317
>Even now in Ireland a lot of people link the English-Irish divide as always having been religious, so why Joyce is against the Catholic nationalism that shaped the later violence, but still pro-nationalism is lost on them because they can only think of Catholic nationalism.

You don't know what you are talking about, the Cultural Nationalism that was predominant in Joyces time was exactly the kind that was spearheaded by protestant intellectuals and writers (Yeats, Lady Gregory, Bulmer Hobson, Standish O'Grady, Edward Martyn), all building on the non-sectarian republicanism of the 19th century United Irishmen. Joyce was never assocaited with organised nationalist activity, sectarian or not.

Gaeilge is no more difficult than many of the languages Joyce became fluent in, he just had less interest in it. Brian O'Nolan was not a contemporary assocaite of Joyce, their careers are separated by decades, O'Nolans only taking off when Joyce was in his last years. O'Nolan was also not a native speaker nor a linguist, he was a civil servant who learnt it in school.

>>8367408
>Joyce was never assocaited with organised nationalist activity, sectarian or not.
So, you have no idea who Arthur Griffith is. Good to know you missed half of Ulysses, and also when Joyce was trying to get Griffith published, and how Joyce got published by Sinn Fein. Sure showed me.

>Gaeilge is no more difficult than many of the languages Joyce became fluent in, he just had less interest in it.
Yeah, that's why Finnegans is in Bearlachas half the time, and why Joyce went to classes for it and complained about their pace being for people who weren't interested in being fluent.

>Brian O'Nolan was not a contemporary assocaite of Joyce, their careers are separated by decades,
Finnegans Wake and At Swim are released the same year m8, and Flann had been writing for the Times for years before that. Flann's also in part responsible for Joyce taking off, which is why he name drops him in the first few pages of At Swim, and him and Kavanagh are creditted with the first Bloomsday (though this is just because they videotaped it, it had been going since the 20s)

>O'Nolan was also not a native speaker
He had to learn English when he was six because all they spoke at home was Irish and they spoke English in school.
>nor a linguist
He's a German linguist, you tit.
>he was a civil servant who learnt it in school
is this make shit up about history day?

>>8367356
A simplistic left-right dicotmony doesn't really lead to a meaningful analysis of Nationalism (of whatever nation it may be) imo. Irish Nationalism is also highly divided within ideologically, after the creation of the Free State we had of course a civil war. The mainstream politics of the Free state and later Republic is like all electoral representative politics watered down as to mean nothing much today. Serious state sponsered Nationalism ended with Devalera essentially, everything after is merely a shadow. The kind of Irish culture touted on St. Patricks day has more to do with consumerism and commodification of culture than it has to do with anything serious, it was purely a religious holiday in Ireland until the American disapora turned it in a nostalgic celebration

>>8367455
Grittith was a significant figure in Dublin society, as where many of Ulysses characters. However I've certainly never heard of any close relationship between him and Joyce

Joyce was greatly influenced and intrigued in Hiberno-English but it's reaching to say this translated into the appreciation of Gaeilge that he showed for his other languages

>Flann's also in part responsible for Joyce taking off
Now you are just trolling

I don't know who exactly you think you are talking about but you may be working off one of O'Noalns humourous writings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_O%27Nolan

>>8365243
Good comment overall, but the part about Beowulf is really off. It looks like you're familiar with medieval Irish lit. Did you just never go over other medieval cultures? Irish has the oldest extant corpus of post-classic literature in Europe, but Britain has the second oldest. France has the Chanson de Rolande, and Germany has the Nibelungenlied, but neither of those were written until the high middle ages. The Hildebrandsleid is old and very cool, but it's way too short (due to it being lost) to be called a national epic. Additionally, Beowulf, while undoubtedly a story brought over by the Anglo-Saxons, was an original work that shows their unique blend of Christian and pagan values.

t. Medievalist with focus on British literature.

>>8367499
>Grittith was a significant figure in Dublin society, as where many of Ulysses characters. However I've certainly never heard of any close relationship between him and Joyce
Joyce said his paper was the only one worth reading, Griffith backed him against libel charges and even recommended a lawyer and printed shit that could get him charged with sedition so Joyce could publish Ulysses. Griffith is the only contemporary politician he puts in there and one of the few people he visited when he did make trips back. Joyce calls his policy on food and British imperialism the only right way of thinking about the issue. You're an ignorant twat.
>>this translated into the appreciation of Gaeilge that he showed for his other languages
I'm saying he stopped appreciating it when he realised it was hard; up until that point he was gungho about it and criticised other people in the revival for not being gungho enough about learning it and holding him back. Grandiose, sure, but that doesn't mean he didn't rave about it positively before he pretended he didn't care.
>Hiberno-English
That isn't Bearlachas, fyi. That's English spoken with Irish syntax and influence in vocabulary; Bearlachas is Irish spoken with English syntax and influence in vocabulary.

>>8367499
>Now you are just trolling
No, I'm just talking to an idiot who doesn't know shit.

>>8367530
You show basic misconception of both Irish History and it's figures. As I said, Joyce wasn't associated in any nationalist activity, he spend more time criticising those involved in the Celtic Twilight, not only denouncing Yeats ILT, calling Edward Martyn a "fathead" but promoting "Ulyssles" as the modernist alternative to the National Epic the Irish literary revival were trying to (re)birth. And that sums him up, he was the universal modernist of the Pale at odds with the Nationalism of the rest of the country.

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/why-joyce-put-griffith-in-ulysses-30710502.html

>>8365276
>I can show you some if you like?

Not that anon, but I'm interested.

>>8367574
>You show basic misconception of both Irish History and it's figures.
m8 you've got so much shit wrong already there's no way you're saving face.
> As I said, Joyce wasn't associated in any nationalist activity,
He dragged his brother to meetings.
>>8367574
>he spend more time criticising those involved in the Celtic Twilight, not only denouncing Yeats ILT, calling Edward Martyn a "fathead" but promoting "Ulyssles" as the modernist alternative to the National Epic the Irish literary revival were trying to (re)birth
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of nationalism- you can be against other nationalists without not being an antinationalist. The reason why he's so against that revivial is that it's a rival branch. This is like saying Trotsky was antiCommunism because he didn't like Stalin. You're as retarded as people who think Orwell was antiCommunist. You might not even be aware of how retarded that is.
>let me link an article about the guy whose name I just learnt to google
such a scholar.

>>8364449
Oscar Wild was born Irish?
Brits BTFO.
>tfw you realize most good English authors are Irish

>>8367610
His mum wrote Irish nationalist stuff to support herself, and when he was told the English would probably give him time to catch the last train and get a boat out of England to France after he lost his trial, she sent word she would never respect him as an Irishman and disown him if he didn't stay.

>>8364459
>Not posterity, not eternity

That last bit couldn't be more wrong. I'm not disputing Goethe, I know very little about him or his works, but Shakespeare wrote classical tragedy.

The classical tradition is rooted in universal metaphors unique to no one age.

>>8367585
I am not saying he didn't have some nationalist sympathies, if I rememeber he did at point in a letter say he could call himself a nationalist if the government's agenda did not insist on compulsary Gaelic in education, and would remain until then an exile.

My point being (as I described earlier in the thread, from a Republican family and community in the North) is his Nationalism is very far removed from that which gripped the nation in his time as to be almost removed from it. His singular focus on a cosmopolite Dublin almost characterises his mindset, a city to be be compared with other European capitals of high culture rather than a compontent of an Irish culture. Essentially, he is not viewed here as one even if it coud be argued as such. Also it would be wrong to compare his work with the entirity of the Irish Literary revival, a movement primarily commited to national cultural rejuvination. Joyce may have had nationalist themes in his work, but he was primarily more focused on universal themes of modernity

If you want to give me a source that show's a more nuanced relationship between Grittith and Joyce, please post a link. But it would be misleading to say Joyce was a supporter of Grittith, he repudiated much of his politics (especially what he saw as antisemitism and prejudices)

>>8367644
>Also it would be wrong to compare his work with the entirity of the Irish Literary revival,
You're the only one bringing up this strawman. The letter you're referring to where he says he'd be calling himself nationalist if only they didn't focus on Irish is talking about his opposition to the revivalists, which is why he aligned himself with Griffith, because that's the kind of nationalism which criticised the language revivalists.
The United Irishman and later papers were the ones proposing that kind of nationalism.
>his nationalism is far removed because his family
You mean how the rest of his family stayed Parnellites like he had been in his childhood, while Joyce dragged Stanislaus to Marxist nationalist meetings to troll/convert him?
His nationalism isn't that different from the antirevivalist nationalism which was pretty common; you're trying to argue it wasn't common at all, but Griffith was a major force.

You don't even need a book about Griffith and Joyce, you need Joyce. I get that it hurts to be wrong, but you're trying to pretend history you make up will somehow fly. ffs at least spell Griffith's name right- he was a leader of the Free State, it's like getting Clemenceau wrong while trying to pretend you understand French history

>>8367396
>My great-great-great^17 Grandfather was from Ulster, I'm an Irish-American!
Fucking cancer.

>>8367705
Jackson is pure Ulster-Scot though, and Kennedy's great grandfather was the first to come over. I'll accept those two as Irish at least

>>8367610
>Oscar Wild was born Irish
Very much so. He spent a lot of time in London being a sodomite though.

>>8367699
>hy he aligned himself with Griffith, because that's the kind of nationalism which criticised the language revivalists.
What? Grittith was one of the most obstinate Romantic nationalists of the time, to the point he defended the slavery advocation of John Mitchell, the hardline disciple of Thomas Carlyle. He did not criticise the Celtic Twilight, if you read the article I posted, you will see he published his letter in his paper but disagreed with his analysis of Yeat's ILT. One of Grittith legacies in Ireland is as one of those sectarians, so I don't know why Joyce was associated with him (unless you overstate his relationship, as I pointed out, Joyce did repudiate a lot of Gritiths views)

I mentioned my family and community as to indicate the general feeling of Nationalist feeling in Ireland today, the point being if you were to ask what is the greatest Nationalist works in Ireland, Joyce's work would certainly be considered a strange choice to put near the top. Joyce is recognised as a great writer in Ireland, but a Nationalist writer is not one of them.

Sorry for the mistake, I am writing from my phone. Incidentially have you ever read him? His parallel on Hungary is a great work, one of the great works I am talking about that define Irish Nationalist writing among the movement today, unlike the general perceptions of Joyce. Grittith was not Joyce I am saying, his outlook does not lead us to a reflection fo Joyce's.

>>8365411
This. I'm Irish, and non-Irish people underestimate just how much storytelling was (and still is) a part of the culture.

>>8364405
It started when you read a bunch of Irish literature and thought it was great.

>>8367818
>Grittith was one of the most obstinate Romantic nationalists of the time, to the point he defended the slavery advocation of John Mitchell, the hardline disciple of Thomas Carlyle. He did not criticise the Celtic Twilight, if you read the article I posted, you will see he published his letter in his paper but disagreed with his analysis of Yeat's ILT. One of Grittith legacies in Ireland is as one of those sectarians, so I don't know why Joyce was associated with him (unless you overstate his relationship, as I pointed out, Joyce did repudiate a lot of Gritiths views)
Griffith and Maud Gone are famous for attacking that kind of revivalism as elitist. You didn't even know who the fuck he was until I brought him up and regularly make shit up, so I'm thinking your indignation is probably not the force that will change history.
Joyce is associated with him because Joyce praised him, got published by him, received legal assistance from him, and we have Ulysses because of him. This was all news to you who can't even spell his name but now want to tell me you know his legacy better. Joyce only sours on him for not being nationalist enough when he goes pro-treaty... which is after Ulysses and after Griffith had already soured on Joyce because he insulted a friend of Griffith's in an obituary.
If you want to go with who repudiated whose views first, when Joyce was first published by Griffith, Griffith published his work with the caveat he didn't agree with it. Meanwhile Joyce is writing all kinds of praise of Griffith to errybody. I don't see why you think your ignorance is going to get rid of those letters or the publication history of Joyce or why after you writing so much bullshit that you think you can turn it around now.
>I'm in Ireland therefore I'm right
Wow, I didn't notice everyone else evacuating the country, and I never said that it was the top nationalist work where the fuck is that coming from? You can be a nationalist without being the best nationalist; this is just lazy thinking.
>I'll pretend I'm not reading Griffith's wikipedia page
Have I read the work on Hungary which Joyce praised? I've even read the praise for it and mentioned it in this conversation. You dumb fuck why do you think he settled in Trieste, the tax free coffee capital of AustroHungary, and wrote so much shit about tea and the British?

You're trying to not look like an idiot so hard you keep digging holes for yourself. Claiming Joyce is nationalist doesn't mean I'm claiming he's the greatest nationalist ever, and if you think it does then god help you understanding his work. It's still not as bad as how ignorant you were of Flann, but goddamn.

>>8364459
Shakespeare received his patronage from nobles: that's why his playing company was at first "Lord Chamberlain's Men," and then was called the "King's Men". These people had the exclusive performance rights of the play: it was their intellectual property. Even when he was performing for plebs he was financed by nobles. How do you think the Globe Theatre was built? Profit from tickets?

That's no "writing for the masses, the rabble, the plebs". And even if it were that would prove nothing about its aesthetic content.

>>8367875
I think you are projecting on things that were not so (the notion of Joyce being an anti-treaty republican being the most bizarre I've ever heard). I've said I don't think Joyce is not nationalist, only that among the Nationalist movement, that is not the perception, far be it from me to deny another's identity.

You are taking this very personally though, I don't think it's wise to continue this conversation, good luck to you friend, I hope you learn some humility

>>8364459
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow’st;
Nor shall death brag thou wander’st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow’st:
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

>>8367913
>the notion of Joyce being an anti-treaty republican being the most bizarre I've ever heard
Wow you really do have no reading comprehension. He felt that Griffith was not being nationalist enough: not that Griffith should have been anti-treaty, but that he shouldn't have been republican or one of those blood of patriots people coming after Dev as he did. Before I have to explain this to you: patriotism=/=nationalism

>>I don't think Joyce is not nationalist
This awkward arrangement is as close to your ego will let you get to "I was wrong", I suppose, but, Jesus Christ, you're really willing to make up history on the fly and hope it works because you expect other people to be idiots.

There is no one Nationalist movement, and The United Irishman was published with that at its heart because Griffith knew he was up against Yeats and the like. You're ignorant, and trying to pretend you're not spouting misinformation, while I've been spoonfeeding you the publication history of Ulysses for hours now trying to get you to understand Griffith and Joyce were close and liked each other for a significant amount of time, more time than he lasted with most other people.

You need to learn how to say, "I don't know anything about this topic and I'm working off a very limited comprehension", instead of constantly doubling down like you have because it increases your losses. You also need to learn not to try to speak for the Nationalist movement, because you can still run into those, you know?

>>8367969
Not that guy but Patriotism as defined by Pearse was both a faith and service to the Nation, as such is an action of Nationalism

>>8367992
It doesn't define all nationalism, and Pearse published an open letter in 1912 on how Griffith's influence on Sinn Fein was destructive because he wasn't going along with the patriots.

Adversity creates passion which feeds creativity.

Between times of war, civil oppression, and widespread fear and strife, the survivors often produce remarkable works of art to try to communicate their experiences.

>>8364405
>anglicised country writes good /lit/ in english
ah yes very impressive

>>8368141
Yes, yes well done Eire, well done Eire

HOWEVER

>>8368157
did the man who invented english, go to england?

>>8368141
they also wrote great lit as gaeilge

alcoholism

>>8368872
how did it take this long for someone to say it?

>>8367610
Now look up how many of your favorite English pop musicians were born to Irish parents or grandparents and were raised Catholic.

File: image.png (13KB, 1280x640px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 1280x640px

>>8368872
invisible earnings

File: Lyndon LaRouche.jpg (64KB, 682x400px) Image search: [Google]

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>>8369147
"Fucking limeys!"