>read ligotti it's fun thanks faggots, forever a puppet now

Who pulled that cruel prank on you?

>>8204999
probably stirnerfags or something

Anyone who's reading this thread and hasn't read The Conspiracy Against the Human Race, do it. You won't regret it.

>>8205361
I just read the first paragraph of the preface and I am already regretting this very much

this guy has no style

>>8205443
I bet you said the same thing when you tried reading Ulysses, pleb.

>>8205028
Yeah bruh. I do enjoy pranking people in such a way.

t. stirnerfag

>>8205449
no, I liked Ulysses. not enough to finish it, but enough to go a long way into it. whatever Joyce lacked, it wasn't style.

>>8205443
he has no grace

I enjoyed it, not particularly sophisticated, but enjoyable nonetheless

>>8205361
From what I'm getting off of Amazon, this seems like a pretty run-of-the-mill antinatalist monologue about absurdity and meaninglessness or whatever. What makes this stand out?

he reminds me of a mix of Lovecraft's neurosis with Noam Chomsky's eloquence

>>8205492
Th-th-this author has a funny face

>>8205525
Antinatalism isn't exactly run-of-the-mill...

>>8204992
I really enjoyed this book, and I recommend it with anyone who finds this sort of thing interesting

>>8205525
It gives a really level-headed survey of historic pessimisms, engages with scientific psychology, manages to maintain a compelling style, is very well written, doesn't pussyfoot around like contemporary academic philosophy, and, surprisingly, is very humble in its conclusions (Ligotti doesn't pretend that pessimism is an objective truth, but explores the pessimistic perspective with respect to the world/life/existence and contra the ubiquitous popular optimism). Plus it's pretty short.

>>8205680
>is very well written
this is what I don't understand. how can people be saying this? if you like what he's saying, that's fine. but his writing style is not good.

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>>8204992
I TRIED SO HARD
AND GOT SO FAR
BUT IN THE END
IT DIDN'T EVEN MATTER

>forever a puppet now
Ha ha! Got you, bitch.

>>8206522
elaborate

>>8204992
Why would you ever do that to yourself?

The dude literally wrote a poem about skull crushing. Not as a metaphor. Literally skull crushing. Just to demonstrate that skull crushing is a thing. To remind you that your skull can be, quite easily, crushed.

If I remember correctly he has a neuological disorder, making him incapable of joy or something.

Honestly didn't get a lot out of it. His overview of some of the lesser known pessimistic thinkers was cool (namely the ones who are not in english) but the attention he gives Lovecraft is overblown. Also has very limited insight into philosophers like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. Its been a while but he dismiss Nietzsche's entire view of pessimism by just calling him a preacher (which was Cioran's idea.).

Honestly Ligotti is just a boring Cioran to me.

>>8205664
It is in this community. We have these threads like once a week.

>>8206730
>he dismiss Nietzsche's entire view of pessimism by just calling him a preacher (which was Cioran's idea.).

It's a pretty simple conclusion. If you've ever read Thus Spake Zarathustra, it's basically Nietzsche's attempt to make a New Testament for atheists.

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>>8204992
Great book
Good for a laugh

>>8206677
>he has a neuological disorder
Kek. The excuses people will pull.

>>8206522
I mean, I don't know what to tell you, bro. Ligotti is known for his great prose, it's his thing, and most critics point to this when reading his work, I think he's one of what, two, living writers that Penguin gave a classics spot to in their publishing? I mean, you can just say you don't like his writing style, but you should have some sense that there are a few things that several critics like that you don't. It's like asking a sports guy why they think Michael Jordan is a good basketball player, you might disagree, but being somewhat self aware, you wouldn't think that everyone is wrong and you are right about your OPINION

>>8207080
I have, he doesn't adress his actual arguments or position. Aphorism 28 from Human All Too Human addresses pessimism in a way that I think pretty accurately diagnosis the problem of Ligotti's ideas but if my memory is right Ligotti ignores that stuff. Its fine if Nietzsche's tone bothers him, but I can not say I find his reading insightful or his philosophical arguments convincing.

I find it fun to read, just like all other antinatalism/existential nihilism/pessimism. That's mostly just because I'm a sadboi though. I can see how it is a logically inconsistent position, but it's one I sympathize with

>>8207413
>can see how it is a logically inconsistent position
Please share your findings.

>>8207419
not findings, but antinatalism is obviously a flawed argument. Suffering is only the base of existence for those who suffer, and if people can find a fulfilling life with what they've been given, it is self-evident that they wouldn't subscribe to pessimism. While it's true that we are thrown into existence without choice, and for some who are given a bad lot it can be unbearably tragic, everyone follows a different trajectory of experience and some can be lucky enough to come in contact with the aspects of life that are worthwhile more so than those that are painful. To prescribe that 'humanity would be better off never having existed' is too narrow-minded

>>8207433
Agreed. Also some people also do not define their meaning/purpose in life as a good/bad dichotomy. You can have a life that is good in the sense it is comfy but be bad for other reasons like it being sheltered.

>>8207433
>>8207452
You're not smart enough to engage with the material.

>>8207365
>I can not say I find his reading insightful or his philosophical arguments convincing

To each their own.

>Aphorism 28 from Human All Too Human

Isn't that about the limitations of art? Ligotti deals with the condition of human existence.

>>8207486
No its the on of the best of all possible worlds and pessimism vs optimism.

>>8207475
Sorry I went so far beyond good and evil I must have became not smart enough for lovecraft 2.0.

So if positive philosophical views of life are deluded according to Ligotti because they rest on assumptions why are the assumptions of Ligotti's scientism okay?

>>8207433
nice """"""""argument""""""""

>>8207632
When did I ever say my post was an argument? It's my opinion

>>8207475
go be 16 somewhere else, please. I'm willing to bet that you've hardly dipped your toes into philosophical pessimism and your understanding of Schopenhauer/Neech/Cioran comes from wiki articles and 4chan shitposts

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>>8207704

>>8207497
>What earthly reason could anyone have for being an optimist unless he had a god to defend who must have created the best of all possible worlds, since he is himself all goodness and perfection?

I hate Nietzsche with a passion.

>>8207734
Predictable. I rest my case

>>8207475
>smart
>continental """""philosophy"""""

>>8207761
Be gone from here, pseud.

>>8207793
>continental

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>>8207348
>I think he's one of what, two, living writers that Penguin gave a classics spot to in their publishing?

>>8207794
Nah. You can go back to /mu/ though

>>8207793
Bad post.

>>8207904
Buttmad Autodidact Continental.

>>8207913
Are you stupid?

>>8207913
Are you just stringing random words together now?

Rocket Salad Arduous

>>8208115
>Are you just stringing random words together now?

dont bother, half the anti-continental posters are markov text generators

>>8205458

>no, I liked Ulysses. not enough to finish it

lol

this guy

I downloaded it again and it now as a Ray Brassier foreword.

Ray is an intense lad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE4FPDSRDpA

>ywnb this lit

>>8208257
>Ray Brassier forward

Interesting. What did he say?

Have you read Nihil Unbound?

>>8208266
To be completely honest i got about a third in but got distracted by other stuff. It did interest me though, but I never got to it after accidentally destroying the e-reader it was on.

I was reminded of it by his foreword because he immediately starts with that tense style of his which made me laugh. I passed out drunk after a page though yesterday.

I'm a pretty disappointing lad.

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>>8208266
>Nihil Unbound

What is he, the Richard Dawkins of nihilism?

>>8206677
>The dude literally wrote a poem about skull crushing. Not as a metaphor. Literally skull crushing. Just to demonstrate that skull crushing is a thing. To remind you that your skull can be, quite easily, crushed.

Cool.

>>8205534
>Noam Chomsky's eloquence

good 1

>>8208324
more like the sherry trousfeld of topology

>>8207555
What scientism?

>>8207555
there are none bruv

>>8204992
You're still stuck in a juvenile state if you take this book seriously.

>>8211075
You're still stuck in a juvenile state if you don't take this book seriously.

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>>8208266
>>8208291
>>8208324

Never heard of this guy before, but I'm more interested in this, desu, it sounds amazing. Anyone got any?

>>8211075
What did he mean by this?

>>8208849
We all got distracted from what really matters in this thread:
Where can we see that poem?

>>8211113
It says contrary to what you underlined. Instead of bridging Heidegger and Wittgenstein he's "plugging eliminative materialism directly into speculative realism," whatever that means...

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"I'm 16 and noffin matters cos we're all going to die someday"

I hope none of you take this meme """philosopher""" seriously.

>>8211276
Is there any coherent argument for why it matters other than "it just does lol" or "grow up"?

>>8211119
Only a man who truly suffered can legitimately holds these views. A man who experienced terrible events: war, violence, constant stress, betrayals, loss... Not that these views would be any more valid but his pessismism would be understandable. A middle class kid who claims that life is suffering and that we shouldn't reproduce is nothing more than a poser who got so alienated by his first world comfort that he decided to be "edgy" in a vain attempt to escape his very alienation.

>>8211288
Not a single person's life is perfect and devoid of suffering.

>>8207799
is this real

>>8211303
I never implied that. But suffering as a middle class kid is something easier to overcome.
A writer like Céline, who experienced WW I, saw the horror of Africa, the Scientific management in America has every reason to be pessimistic. A guy like Houellebecq on the other hand, if we exclude the fact that he was ugly and that he had a shitty mother but a good grand-mother, can't really complain.

>>8211280

Why does life need to 'matter'? Why does life need a more sophisticated purpose than 'why not'?

Ligotti is just indulging in his own depressed perspective, he's not doing anything practical. He's not raising any points that need to be considered. He's pandering to the depressed.

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>>8211323
I'm holding my copy in pic related and I still can't tell if I'm just imagining it or not.

>>8211334
Meh

>>8211391
See? That's the kind of juvenile thought I'm talking about. Your thought is clearly reflected by your reaction.

>>8211334
>he's invalidated because i think he should be happy!!!

what self-righteous, idiotic reasoning.

>>8211436
Because I don't care to argue with you anymore? OK.

>>8211357
Question: what is in that book senpai?

>>8211346
I would agree with you, but your insinuation of pessimism as being depressive, as well as the word practical, doesn't make sense with what you said. Either there is practicality, i.e. doing things that have relevance and external value to life, or there isn't because the ultimate purpose of action is, in your words, "why not", hence the external value of the action is diminished because the value it depends upon (improving life) is meaningless.
>>8211334
>>8211288
Why does middle-class upbringing validate or invalidate feelings? Genuinely curious, not trying to be a dick.

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>>8204992
Inmendham is my Ligotti.

Look at that sexy ass smirk.

>>8211357
What does he say about Marr

>>8211516
Love that guy. Especially the video where he goes nuts and says he'd kill a woman who would try and have his child

>>8211443
A strawman argument is always a self-righteous, idiotic reasoning, I agree, and that's exactly what you're doing.
It's not that he should be happy, he can be content with what he has (or improve and get more) but he's so self-absorbed and narcissistic that he comforts himself in the idea that life is suffering when it's nothing but a succession of events that we experience as positive and/or negative (conceptions that are usually subjective and depend on our environments, upbringing and genetic potential). It's a basic side effect of modernity, we do not have to struggle for our survival so we're stuck in a state of ennui so deep that it takes any notion of rationality and collective consciousness from us. "Thinkers" like Ligotti are the most egotistic individuals there is and they are intelligent enough to rationalize this disgusting behavior and attitude towards life.
>>8211485
The feeling is "real" as he is experienced by the middle-class kid but, as I said, it'll be much easier for him to overcome, knowing that he didn't struggled as much as an Iraqi kid.

>>8211639
Have you even read the book?

>>8211649
Yes. Like a lot of guys here, I discovered it thanks to True Detective.

>>8211660
Well, good job. I still think you have a shallow understanding of humanity and the tribulations of existence, but to each their own.

>>8211639
There is literally nothing more self-absorbed and narcissistic than having kids. It is, categorically, distilled narcissism.

>>8211691
Actually, no, because it is the perpetuation of our species, it is initially an act signifying a collective awareness and the crystallisation of a mutual attachment (two individuals forgetting their individualities through an alterity and forging a transcendental bond, that's "love"). In our modern ages, where everything is reduced to desires and impulses, it can be narcissistic but this isn't inherent to the act of reproduction itself.

>>8211334
My mom used to use an argument similar to this to make me finish eating dinner.

>>8211681
That's a nice opinion. Maybe we can have a debate about it.

>>8211730
I taught her.

>>8211731
I'm not in the mood to debate how stupid the concept of privilege is for the umpteenth time right now. Ask me later.

>>8211726
>offering up your child on the altar to the thresher that is life because you're a self-absorbed narcissist who wants to see a little version of yourself running around, and rationalizing this by telling other people you did it "for the perpetuation of the species"

It's obvious you didn't actually read it lad.

I read the first 30 pages of this book and couldn't continue. It was fucking shit

>>8211737
No, thanks. You don't get it: it's not about privilege, it's about humility.
>>8211752
>"boo hoo life is a constant struggle"
Humanity have been going through this constant struggle for thousands of years and guess what? Some people enjoy the ride. We all experienced joy, pleasure, pain, surprise, fear... Some of us even experienced transcendence or a life of pure hedonism. Most of us have been, are and will always be instinctively and consciously attached to "the alter to the thresher that is life".
(Jesus... you're so far up your own ass...).
No one is trying to rationalize reproduction because it is initially instinctive, it's innate. It became "a choice" as human conscioussness evolved but it's our purpose to perpetuate the species.
You're depressed? Seek help or stay in this perpetual state of mediocrity. But don't generalize your biased "edgy" views on life.

>>8211792
MALIGNANTLY USELESS

>>8211833
Contain your autism.

>>8211792
[rationalizing intensifies]

>>8211852
You mean rationalizing your shitty life and bad decisions by claiming that existence is inherently painful? Yeah, that's what you and your friends have been doing.

>>8211851
THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY IMPRESSIVE ABOUT THE UNIVERSE OR ANYTHING IN IT.

>>8211860
for you

>>8205664
It wasn't.. until True Detective came along.

>>8211859
“The pessimist’s credo, or one of them, is that nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone.”

>>8211879
"Nothingness never hurts nothing because there's nothing to hurt."
That's stupid it sounds. Read Epicurus, he completely destroyed the "better to never have been" argument thousands of years before it was stated by betas like Ligotti.

>>8211886
Read the full quote in the context of the book, and hell, maybe read the full book while you're at it.

>“This is the great lesson the depressive learns: Nothing in the world is inherently compelling. Whatever may be really “out there” cannot project itself as an affective experience. It is all a vacuous affair with only a chemical prestige. Nothing is either good or bad, desirable or undesirable, or anything else except that it is made so by laboratories inside us producing the emotions on which we live. And to live on our emotions is to live arbitrarily, inaccurately—imparting meaning to what has none of its own. Yet what other way is there to live? Without the ever-clanking machinery of emotion, everything would come to a standstill. There would be nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to be, and no one to know. The alternatives are clear: to live falsely as pawns of affect, or to live factually as depressives, or as individuals who know what is known to the depressive. How advantageous that we are not coerced into choosing one or the other, neither choice being excellent. One look at human existence is proof enough that our species will not be released from the stranglehold of emotionalism that anchors it to hallucinations. That may be no way to live, but to opt for depression would be to opt out of existence as we consciously know it.”

Epicurus is a moron.

>>8211886
>no arguments
>muh hedonism

you're worse than the idiot quoting shitty aphorisms for not being able to counter them. go jack off to the tetrafaggoton some more.

>>8211886
>m-my own personal Daddy said it's wrong

Can you please post the argument instead of vaguely referring to an entire oeuvre. You do know the argument, right?

>>8211898
Epicurus' response to it has nothing to do with hedonism. He demonstrated that the very logic of this claim is deeply flawed. Try harder.
>>8211893
Juvenile as I said. Nothing demonstrated, his reasoning is limited. Only claims backed up with a really superficial knowledge on neuroscience. That's why no one takes his essay seriously.

>>8211922
>. He demonstrated that the very logic of this claim is deeply flawed

oh really? what did he say?

>>8211922
t. artificially limiting the content of consciousness to save himself

>>8211922
>Nothing demonstrated, his reasoning is limited
>advocates for Epicurean thought instead

wew lad

>>8211904
>Much worse is he who says that it were good not to be born, but when once one is born to pass quickly through the gates of Hades. For if he truly believes this, why does he not depart from life? It would be easy for him to do so once he were firmly convinced. If he speaks only in jest, his words are foolishness as those who hear him do not believe.
http://www.epicurus.net/en/menoeceus.html
Is writing "better to never have been + Epicurus" on Google too hard for a limited brain like yours?
Also, your "personal Daddy" seems to be Ligotti whose "personal Daddies" were bad and forgotten philosophers like Zapffe.
>>8211893
"Epicurus is a moron."
Jeez, I missed that part. I'm pretty sure Ligotti will be a philosopher as influential and important as him and not just a HP Lovecraft wanna be who just paraphrased other philosophers who shared his thoughts.

>>8211960
The argument you posted is moronic and treats humans as non-biological. Epicurus is moronic and so are you.

Take your facile rationalizations elsewhere, preferably somewhere where you can shitpost with other 16 year old spergs.

>>8211929
Epicurus may not be the most rigurous philosopher but he pretty much exposed the logical fallacy behind such lines. Of course, you have to be able to understand his demonstration.

>>8211960
>>Much worse is he who says that it were good not to be born, but when once one is born to pass quickly through the gates of Hades. For if he truly believes this, why does he not depart from life? It would be easy for him to do so once he were firmly convinced. If he speaks only in jest, his words are foolishness as those who hear him do not believe.


that's your fucking argument? 'lol if non-existence is so much better y dont u just kill urself faggot GOTCHA'

the man never even attempts to engage the argument, much less 'logically' refute it, and also, that letter is basically the manifesto for hedonism, 'nothing to do with hedonism' my ass, you ignorant twat.

>>8211978
Are you talking about this?

>>8211960

Do you think that's exposing a logical fallacy? Jesus, no wonder you were so reluctant to post it, I would've been embarrassed too.

>>8211973
If he's not treating humans as "biological", then how is he treating them? Some kind of abstract entities like Gods? Can you read between the lines?

Yeah, Epicurus is much more moronic than the irrelevant writer who became a little bit less relevant thanks to a TV show.

Read the letter, faggot. Contextualization is important.

>>8211987
>>8211983
More strawman arguments from depressive retards. Read the letter and his views on death as non-existence than link it together. Jesus, you retards need too much spoon-feeding. No wonder a shitty philosophy like Ligotti's attracts you.

>>8205492
Perhaps a little grace?

>>8211960
muh influence

>>8212005
>im gonna pretend the letter is relevant
>im so good at philosophy

>>8212024
The only remaining works from him are three letters and judging by his influence on Western philosophy, this letter seems pretty relevant.
Seems like Ligotti-tards can't reply without using green arrows, strawman arguments or oversimplification when they don't understand a basic argument.

>>8211960
>If life is suffering then why don't you just kill yourself? Huh? Huh?

Ligotti probably would kill himself if he weren't hopped up on enough antidepressants to take out an elephant.

>>8212044
Read the letter.
Also, why would he take antidepressants if he hates life so much?

>>8208849
Yeah do the crusher!
Do the crusher!
Do the crusher, you turkey necks!
Do the crusher!
Do the crusher, you turkey necks!
Everybody's doing it!

>>8212056
I've never taken antidepressants so I don't know.

>>8211334
0/10

>>8211792
>No one is trying to rationalize reproduction because it is initially instinctive
>it's our purpose to perpetuate the species.
gb2 facebook dweeb

>>8211904
>>m-my own personal Daddy
nice

>>8211481
>>8211531
I wouldn't know as I haven't actually read it. I just bought the fucker while drunk because the idea of it amused me.

>>8212090
LOL

>>8212090
if you get your skull crushed, can you come back from the grave?

same guy who wrote this?
http://img.pathfinder.gr/clubs/files/1856/3337.txt

>>8211792
It makes me sad that retards like these are in charge of the future of the species.

>>8207348
Good post

>>8211139
2nded

>>8211288
muh struggle

>>8211792
>it's our purpose to perpetuate the species
Now that's some good ideology.

>>8211960
>For if he truly believes this, why does he not depart from life?
Caring about the feelings of others.

>>8211988
He ignores survival instinct.

>>8212253
That's cool. I might have to watch that. Is that the only episode he wrote?

>>8212477
There's no such episode, he just wrote a script.

>>8206594
it doesn't even matter*

>>8211736
You taught her to tell me "children are starving in africa so finish your peas?"

>>8212194
It's not a rationalization, it's basic biology, it's what every species is supposed to do. What kind of retard are you?
>>8212322
>Can't even provide an actual argument like the other Ligotti-tards
>Call me a retard
Nice.
>>8212412
Muh suffering. Muh "I'm too much of a pussy to take life for what it is, therefore I complain about false problems".
>>8212421
No, that's just a fact. Species are meant to reproduce and perpetuate.
>>8212428
There you go, you got caught up in your own game. If life is suffering, we shouldn't have a survival instinct because we naturally avoid what is harmful or painful. Everybody would seek death.
>>8212694
I taught her a lot of things actually, she's a charming woman (a bit overweight though). Too bad her son's a delusional crybaby.

>>8212936
>No, that's just a fact. Species are meant to reproduce and perpetuate.
>meant to
>biology

I, too, remember when I was an undergrad tryhard who didn't even see his basic postulates

>>8211922
>Only claims backed up with a really superficial knowledge on neuroscience
Uh, is what he said about "neuroscience" wrong?

>>8212936
>biology
>meant to
Do the gene pool a favor and kill yourself.

Why didn't they just call it Fun With the Persecution Complex.

>>8212936
Fool, you havent lived life, for you havent had cancer, or seen your family burn to death in a car wreck, or had your penis cut off and thrown out the window of a moving car, or gone through the process of dying. Get back to us on your death bed. But of course, even that will be an imperfect assessment, because you will not have died yet. Dying will be very painful.

Frothing retarded idiots, the lot of you.

>>8213036

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0ZUAorP0b4

>>8212936
It's always fascinating to see the mental gymnastics people will go through to justify their instincts for survival.

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>>8212936
>should
>supposed to do
>meant to

>>8212936
>to take life for what it is
What did he mean by this?
>Species are meant to reproduce and perpetuate
>meant
What did he mean by this?
>There you go, you got caught up in your own game. If life is suffering, we shouldn't have a survival instinct because we naturally avoid what is harmful or painful. Everybody would seek death.
This just makes no sense. Are you religous?

>>8213033
>>8212945
English isn't my native language, my phrasing may be awkward but I think my point is understandable. Yet, you autists insist on semantics because you haven't been able to provide a single argument since this debate started.
>>8212982
I never said his knowledge was wrong, I said it was superficial and misused to support his biased views.
>>8213954
I can now say that Ligotti-tards are meme spouting autists. The fact that you can't understand it doesn't mean it makes no sense.
>>8213935
You got it wrong. Stirner's philosophy was life-affirming and he would probably say that Ligotti's autistic depressive rants are spooks.

>>8213980
You're legitimately a rambling idiot, there is no point "arguing" with you

>>8211481
some of the funniest and most grim depictions of youth and coming-of-age you'll ever read with a healthy but unfortunate slab of bitter fat attached

>>8211531
he has a lot of love for marr and pretty much credits him with getting out of perpetual unemployment and misery with the formation of the smiths. around the time of the joyce trial moz is very disappointed that marr doesn't firmly pick a side in the conflict, but it comes across as if most of the bad blood from that and the smiths break-up is gone

>>8213980
Are you from South Africa, by any chance?

>>8207433
privilege: the post

>>8214072
No.

>>8214203
Ah, well never mind then. You have a strong instinct for survival. Whether or not that's good, I guess it depends on who you're asking. Ligotti and other pessimists certainly disagree with you, but whatever.

>>8213980
>stirnerists calling other people meme spouters

iron

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>>8213035

>>8214346
>implying I'm a Stirnerist
I actually hate his philosophy.

>>8214557
no one cares, scrub

"Remedies may be discovered for certain diseases and sociopolitical barbarities may be amended. But those are only stopgaps. Human suffering will remain insoluble as long as human beings exist. The one truly effective solution for suffering is that spoken of in Zapffe’s 'Last Messiah.' It may not be a welcome solution for a stopgap world, but it would forever put an end to suffering, should we ever care to do so."

>>8211601
Link?

>>8211601
kek i'd threaten my ex with that all the time

>>8212493
That's too bad. Ligotti would be great at writing his own TV show.

>>8214652
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyKIXm486z4

Starts at 34:30, progresses into heated argument, finishes in savage shitshow

>>8211481
one of the best autobiographies ever written tbqh.

>>8214747
And it goes on later when he comes back into the room

>>8214747
>>8214747
I agree with the guy he's arguing with. If he didn't want the risk of having children he shouldn't have been having sex in the first place.

>"It's not murder, it's a fucking contract, shithead!"

I don't get what this even means?

>>8214787
He told the "bitch" that he would push her down stairs if she didn't get an abortion

>>8214796
He's an idiot for trying to ignore and avoid the risks that could come about from his actions.

>>8214824
His reply to that is that he basically knew that the "bitch" thought the same as him and would never have a kid, therefore he wouldn't have to murder her.

>>8211516
link some of his best vids for beginners please laddo

>>8214842
IDK matey, he has like over 4000 videos and a bunch of live debates, and he doesnt produce content in a coherent manner so many of his vids are kinda random, but this series is good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiU-5enR37Q (part 1)

This is a debate about nihilism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCxewFW1MRw

Most of his videos contain bits of wisdom but they arent always coherent. Just look for vidoes with titles like "people suck" "fucking cunts", also Tinychat debates.

>>8214583
Then why are you replying to me and making false claims?

>>8207433
>To prescribe that 'humanity would be better off never having existed' is too narrow-minded

What's a more "open-minded" approach then?

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Kind of interestingly, I'm a huge Ligotti fan, but I don't care for Conspiracy. It lacks all the charm of his prose and comes across as really dry and academic. Then again, I'm a college dropout, so go figure.

>>8213980
>Stirner's philosophy was life-affirming

Big fucking surprise. Pretty much every philosophy is "life-affirming."

>>8212428
As do the millions of people who have committed suicide.

>>8214982
Which are your favorite stories? Mine are "The Last Feast of Harlequin" and "In the Shadow of Another World."

>>8215064
'Notes on the Writing of Horror: A Story' was a real mind bender.

But I'd have to say 'The Night School' and 'The Journal of J.P. Drapeau' are my current favorites.

I really like his depictions of catty artists and the way he seems to take comfort in dirty/dangerous places.

>>8215088
>the way he seems to take comfort in dirty/dangerous places

I feel like this is the perfect description of Ligotti's storytelling as a whole.

>>8215106
There's a weird dynamism going on in a lot of Ligotti's stories. His characters are typically attracted to places of squalor and horror, but they tend to be affected by these locales in terrible ways.

I think Ligotti became conscious of this later in life, which is why so many stories in his Teatro Grottesco collection feature characters who wrestle with their alter egos.

Then there was the glorious period in his life where he wrote pretty exclusively about how horrible it is to have a job.

>>8214982
where do i start with the fiction?

>>8215175
Penguin recently released a compilation of his first two collections - Songs of a Dead Dreamer & Grimscribe. I'd definitely start there.

>>8215129
>Then there was the glorious period in his life where he wrote pretty exclusively about how horrible it is to have a job.

Which book?

>>8215507
I guess anon meant My Work Is Not Yet Done. He even called the three stories in the book "tales of corporate horror".

>>8215625
Thank you.

>>8204992
“Nature proceeds by blunders; that is its way. It is also ours. So if we have blundered by regarding consciousness as a blunder, why make a fuss over it? Our self-removal from this planet would still be a magnificent move, a feat so luminous it would bedim the sun. What do we have to lose? No evil would attend our departure from this world, and the many evils we have known would go extinct along with us. So why put off what would be the most laudable masterstroke of our existence, and the only one?”

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>>8215829
>Evil

>>8215834
see >>8211893

>>8215838
We don't know what is inherent and what is arbitrary, therefore we have to persist to potentially find an answer.

>>8215834
>Stirner

>This finding of a similar pattern to dream activity is intriguing. While the psychedelic state has been previously compared with dreaming, the opposite effect has been observed in the brain network from which we get our sense of “self” (called the default-mode network or ego-system). Put simply, while activity became “louder” in the emotion system, it became more disjointed and so “quieter” in the ego system.

>the breath of associations made by the brain and the ease by which they are visited is enhanced under the drugs.

https://theconversation.com/magic-mushrooms-expand-your-mind-and-amplify-your-brains-dreaming-areas-heres-how-28754

>>8215860
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2095053-people-who-meditate-are-more-aware-of-their-unconscious-brain/?utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=SOC&utm_campaign=hoot&cmpid=SOC%7CNSNS%7C2016-GLOBAL-hoot

>>8215064
The Red Tower
The Tsalal
The Shadow, The Darkness

all Ligotti stories with the word "Shadow" in them are great

>>8215036
No. Are you stupid?

>>8213980
>writes something stupid
>gets called out on i.
>YOU'RE JUST AUTISTS TALKING ABOUT SEMANTICS I OBVIOUSLY MEANT SOMETHING SMART AUTISTS

>>8215842
>______ therefore we have to persist.

Fill in the blank with whatever you want, kids!

“As a survival-happy species, our successes are calculated in the number of years we have extended our lives, with the reduction of suffering being only incidental to this aim. To stay alive under almost any circumstances is a sickness with us. Nothing could be more unhealthy than to “watch one’s health” as a means of stalling death. The lengths we will go as procrastinators of that last gasp only demonstrate a morbid dread of that event. By contrast, our fear of suffering is deficient.”

>>8206677
To be honest that sounds metal as fuck

>>8216448
Implying it isn't good to suffer

>>8211871
It was a popular subject on /lit/ way before that newboi

>>8205492
he has no style, he has no grace,
Conspiracy against the human race

>>8205443
that's brassiers foreword breh

>>8217233
kekcheck

>>8204992
The alarmist brand of pessimism is for teenagers and mediocre television shows.

Life being meaningless and full of suffering does not warrant the level of anxiety they want it to

>>8207793
>analytical philosophy

>>8215985
>Get the point I was making
>Still choose to focus on semantics because you weren't able to provide a valid counter-argument
>Trivialize my arguments because you're stuck in a dogmatic state of thoughts

>>8217726
>Still choose to focus on semantics
Please quote me focusing on semantics and explain how I'm focusing on semantics.

>>8216651
Why would it be good to suffer?

>>8217877
Several retards responded to me. How could I know which one of them is you?

>>8218188
Maybe call it stress rather than suffering (bodily stress from exercise as an example). But people to some extent would be adapted to the conditions we have been experiencing for a long period of time, and I don't think suffering is anything new. If suffering is not good for us, then at least you could say that we have some preparation for dealing with it, and being able to learn from it (and potentially learn things that can't be obtained from any other source?) .

>>8218222
Have you read The Conspiracy Against the Human Race?

>>8218269
Not yet.

What response does it have to my post?

>>8218222
People are capable of 'dealing with' a lot of things, but that doesn't justify the things in question.

>>8218300
If you can't escape it does that mean you should accept it? similar to stoicism I guess.

>>8218279
>“As a fact, we cannot give suffering precedence in either our individual or collective lives. We have to get on with things, and those who give precedence to suffering will be left behind. They fetter us with their sniveling. We have someplace to go and must believe we can get there, wherever that may be. And to conceive that there is a 'brotherhood of suffering between everything alive' would disable us from getting anywhere. We are preoccupied with the good life, and step by step are working toward a better life. What we do, as a conscious species, is set markers for ourselves. Once we reach one marker, we advance to the next — as if we were playing a board game we think will never end, despite the fact that it will, like it or not. And if you are too conscious of not liking it, then you may conceive of yourself as a biological paradox that cannot live with its consciousness and cannot live without it. And in so living and not living, you take your place with the undead and the human puppet.”

>>8218311
>We are preoccupied with the good life, and step by step are working toward a better life.

What if most of the personal steps don't require any movement?

>>8218327
What did he mean by this?

>>8218335
>We have to get on with things


What if there is nothing to do?

>>8218311
that's some powerful shit, Nic Pizzaria did a bad job plagiarising him.

>>8218341
Lad, you're not making any sense. The only way there is nothing to do is when you're dead.

>>8218364
But to die you have to do something first.

Anyways, I'm just saying that even if everything else remains the same you can decrease your suffering/increase your happiness with just your mind to some extent (Similar to CBT?) and that this will help you to "get on with things".

>>8218387
Read the book. Ligotti would say you're artificially limiting the content of consciousness to save yourself out of an animalistic survival instinct.

>>8218409
And if I don't mind doing so?

>>8214982
it's not academic, it's amateurish like somebody's bad blog. His fiction is also not interesting, none of them have a plot or interesting characters (characters or plot can be ill-defined or "blank" but still well-written or even "boring in an interesting way", but his aren't. They're just clumsily bad), and he uses the same imagery and spooky mood descriptions in every story in exactly the same way. I would suggest Brian Evenson as an alternative of a better writer with a similar philosophical bent.

In "conspiracy" He attacks arguments for natalism that are grossly oversimplified and misrepresented. Although I can't take any antinatalist seriously, he could've done a lot better even so. It's like they're starting from the point of view that "life is supposed to be fun" and then think they're super smart for showing that life is actually painful. Like, every philosophy in history has already incorporated that knowledge.

I guess I could take the edgy anti-life thing in a more traditional nihilistic sense but combined with the justification they have for it, which is the "harm morality" which is a totally modern liberal type of thinking, and the idea that prevention of harm is the most important thing ever, that makes it all seem super weak and lame.

>>8218511
>s arguments for natalism
Are there any? I thought natalism was just the unargued default.

>>8218346
you're probably using the term in a broad sense, but it reminded me of how ridiculous that whole plagiarism controversy was. Writer incorporates philosophy thematically and into his dialogue, idiot bloggers go apeshit. "We've found him out! The thief!"

>>8218568
This. Natalism is such an overwhelmingly common philosophy so hard-coded in the biology of mankind that of course no antinatalist will be taken "seriously."

>>8218417
Of course you would. Question: Would you consider yourself an optimist or a pessimist?

>>8215975
Explain how someone who kills them self is not ignoring survival instinct (which exists to prevent you from getting killed)

>>8218788
Realist

:^)

>>8218858
No you aren't.

>>8215088
Y'all gotta read "The Bungalow House"! Also, listen to "This Degenerate Little Town," which, while not a story, is great.

>>8218962
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxZpEFJhO6k

Find a dark and silent room, put in your headphones, close your eyes. Lay down as still as possible and listen.

>>8215975
u wot

>>8218222
You are of simple mind

>>8219146
I just realised I left out evolutionary before adapted

Keep having fun spreading a dead end meme if you wish.

>>8219146
>>8219162
Also I know it was a description and not an actual response, but are you implying that 'good' exists independently of perspective?

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>>8219162
>philosophical pessimism is a "dead end meme"

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>>8218511
>I guess I could take the edgy anti-life thing in a more traditional nihilistic sense but combined with the justification they have for it, which is the "harm morality" which is a totally modern liberal type of thinking, and the idea that prevention of harm is the most important thing ever, that makes it all seem super weak and lame.

I swear you guys who criticize the book either skimmed over it or just zoned out/blocked out the passages you didn't particularly like.

>“Perhaps the greatest strike against philosophical pessimism is that its only theme is human suffering. This is the last item on the list of our species’ obsessions and detracts from everything that matters to us, such as the Good, the Beautiful, and a Sparking Clean Toilet Bowl. For the pessimist, everything considered in isolation from human suffering or any cognition that does not have as its motive the origins, nature, and elimination of human suffering is at base recreational, whether it takes the form of conceptual probing or physical action in the world—for example, delving into game theory or traveling in outer space, respectively. And by “human suffering,” the pessimist is not thinking of particular sufferings and their relief, but of suffering itself. Remedies may be discovered for certain diseases and sociopolitical barbarities may be amended. But those are only stopgaps. Human suffering will remain insoluble as long as human beings exist. The one truly effective solution for suffering is that spoken of in Zapffe’s “Last Messiah.” It may not be a welcome solution for a stopgap world, but it would forever put an end to suffering, should we ever care to do so. The pessimist’s credo, or one of them, is that nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone. Although our selves may be illusory creations of consciousness, our pain is nonetheless real.”

Portions of the above quote have also been posted >>8211879 and >>8214599

(btw, all the 4 or so quotes I have posted ITT have been from the Goodreads quote page, where you could find many of the criticisms to Ligotti's argument if you'd just bothered to press ctrl+f and the keyword -- e.g., "suffering" -- you were searching for.)

>>8218848
They're not ignoring it. They either overcome it or don't have it.

>>8218788
No.

>>8205361
I'm doin it.

>>8207734
Kek'd pretty hard.

>>8219588
Enjoy.

>>8219538
So you're just stupid then.

>>8220022
No.

>>8220029
Yes.

>>8219202
It depends on which definition of "good" you want to use. There is "good"ness in a moral social paradigm, "good"ness in the biological external sense, and of course, the individually perceived "good," which is subjective and nebulous, etc.

>>8218597
>plagiarism controversy

Did Ligotti's publishers try to pursue legal action? I hadn't heard of this before.

>>8220051
No.

> Unironically trying to prove existence is objectively suffering
> Unironically using scientific reductionism
> Unironically ignoring epistemological solipsism

If ligotti can figure out a way to disprove epistemological solipsism, I might bother reading his garbage.

>>8220523
You can't make your own conclusion about a book unless you've read it first, dimwit.

>>8220598

But I have read it, you absolutely braindead retard.

My point still stands. Either answer it, or accept you're wrong, you fucking hypocritical piece of shit.

>>8220598

I realize my comment looks weird now. I did read The Conspiracy Against The Human Race; but I haven't read his other stuff. This is what I meant with the other comment.

>>8207799

I'm pretty sure he's only one of four living American writers, or something.

Is this the extent of the intellect of ligotti cock suckers? Literally can't answer the most basic of anti-materialism arguments?

kek

>>8220724
There's nothing to answer to the solipsistic idealist, since it's unfalsifiable bullshit.

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>>8220740

So you literally admit my position is more epistemologically correct than yours? This is the fucking limit of your shit for brains ligotti?

You're joking, right?

>>8220767
So let's entertain the notion that everything is in your head, how does that contradict any of Ligotti's arguments?

>>8220830

How can you possibly prove that evil or suffering are things that even exist if you cannot prove materialism in the first place?

Like all anti natalist, his conception of human beings, and of human suffering, is strictly based off the chemicals meme. If I posit to him that he cannot prove this assumption, his entire position is no longer rational, as epistemological solipsism is the only epistemologically correct position.

Can I still be an anti-natalist if I want to have children: but just to lay the ground rules for them?

>>8220901
You don't have to follow your moral conviction. Most people don't.

>>8220886
You're an idiot and not worth arguing with.

>>8220886
>Like all anti natalist, his conception of human beings, and of human suffering, is strictly based off the chemicals meme.
Who's Schopenhauer?

>>8220915

> Can't come up with any arguments
> Better call him an idiot and use his supposed stupidity as a way to hide my complete inability to confront my own worldviews

You're disgusting. You don't deserve the life that has been given to you.

>>8220921

Schopenhauer isn't any different.

>>8220931
He fell for a meme that didn't exist at his time?

>>8220927
>How Can You Prove Suffering Is Real If You Can't Prove That Chemicals Are Real

Yeah, I'm not arguing with you.

>>8220941

Materialism and even its most reductive versions have existed since the dawn of philosophy, from India to China to the Greeks and so on.

>>8220946
Schopenhauer wasn't a materialist you non-reading pleb faggot

>>8220944

Greentexting my position doesn't make it any less true. If you don't want challenge your worldviews, stop fucking replying and saying you're not going to discuss. What are you even typing for?

>>8220952

His arguments for anti-natalism are still ultimately rooted in a materialist perception of reality.

>>8220953
>If you don't want to challenge your worldviews

Your whole conception of epistemological solipsism being a credible position is incredibly sophomoric and something that any person of the right mind had considered (and typically logically abandoned, but I guess not in some rare cases) when they were in high school.

>>8220968

Yes, much like nihilism and anti-natalism. How is that all relevant to my position?

> Someone has thought of this before and eventually dropped it, therefore it must be wrong

>>8220983
You've literally reverted to the basest element of ignorance to perpetuate your own existence.

>>8220956
nope

>>8220990

Ignorance: a lack of knowledge, understanding, or education : the state of being ignorant

Skepticism: an attitude of doubting the truth of something (such as a claim or statement)

Use words correctly faggot.

>>8221003
Yes, you're a skeptic insofar as you doubt the truth of the things you don't want to be true.

>>8220998

1) Yes

2) Schopenhauer had a child, so I'd be warry of taking whatever he says on the subject seriously.

>>8221012

That's not what my position is, and that's not what I'm doing either. Nice try with the armchair psychology though, almost as accurate as the book you fap to on a regular basis.

>>8221021
He accidentally had a child and she miscarried so it's all good.

>>8221027
That's exactly what your position is, bucko. You've reverted back to the most primitive of individual thought to perpetuate your own existence.

>>8221055

> The most primitive

Lel. More like the most accurate.

Suffering is the end argument in the anti-natalist's playbook. The anti-natalist hopes to demonstrate that life is objectively more suffering than it is happiness, and thus hopes to rationalize the idea of ending the human race. To do so, there a few necessary assumptions that needs to be accepted.

1) Scientific reductionism is correct.

2) 1) follows from materialism.

3) Materialism is correct.

4) There is nothing after life.

Obviously, all these assumptions can and have been challenged, so anti-natalism is far from being an accurate and not ideologically inspired position. However, I am more interested in the sociological/psychological aspect of it.

In order to assume that pain is bad, one must first have felt pain. Merely understanding the bio-chemicals aspects of pain (one must first agree that these are correct) is not enough. After all, the only way to properly understand emotions and other sensible things is to have felt them yourself (qualia). However, the great sufferings that this world can offer is something the vast majority of anti-natalists have never felt. When they are talking about such pain, they are quite simply talking out of their ass, as they can never understand such a level of pain since one needs to have felt it in order to really understand it. Ironically enough, many of those that have lived through such horrors (victims of torture, war, hunger and so on) still enjoy life, and often to a great degree.

Perhaps even more ironically, anti-natalism is at its most popular in the west, the place on earth with the highest quality of life, and is non existant in places where suffering is common (poor places, Africa, and so on). I believe such a reality utterly destroy the anti-natalist concept of suffering. Most anti-natalists, after all, seem completely unable to grasp the idea that happiness is not an emotion and is a concept that transcend chemicals.

Most anti-natalists seems to be young, males, depressed and living in first world nations. This particular demographic is extremely expected, and could easily be explained by using the same concepts Durkheim used when talking about suicide. This would also make the flaws of the position extremely apparent.

>>8221200

This is a really embarrassing post, please stop.

>>8221210

> I don't want to discuss with you
> But I'll stick around for more than half an hour to make sure to reply with hot steaming garbage

Kys

>>8221210

After all, sincerity and honesty are things entirely out of your reality. You are so disgustingly scared of caring about anything that you have literally created a worldview that negates your own existence.

As Masahiro Morioka pointed out, birth denial is truly the worst form of human evil.

>>8221238
>I'll keep addressing my imaginary single adversary on an anonymous image board
Examine your life, examine your choices.

>>8221257

I'm doing pretty good. How about you?

>>8221254
>Masahiro Morioka pointed out, birth denial is truly the worst form of human evil.
Does he have any children I can force him to watch me rape?

>>8221238
>>8221254

That was my first post in this thread

Good job guys

>>8221200
>Most anti-natalists, after all, seem completely unable to grasp the idea that happiness is not an emotion and is a concept that transcend chemicals.
I don't have an opinion on whether happiness is chemicals and I'm an anti natalist.

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>>8221278

> I wish to end suffering by ending the human race out of a misguided sense of ethic and by projecting my own suffering unto others
> I'll do this by raping harmless children
> This is your average anti-natalist retards

> Mfw he can't even use google to figure basic shit like this out

Kekking at you irl

>>8221290

Care to elaborate?

Also, most ≠ all

>>8221291
Is twisting words and missing points a big thing where you're from?

>>8221369

''Does he have any children I can force him to watch me rape?''

Are you actually braindead?

>>8221376
A makes retarded claim. B rebuts said claim with a rhetorical question. With the power of shitty reasoning, A now claims B partakes in the activity described in the rhetorical question in his pursuit of __.

The real question is: Is A actually braindead?

>>8221555

Claim wasn't retarded. I also have no way to tell wether that was a rhetorical question or a genuine post. I've heard worst shit from other anti-natalist, so I'm not taking chances.

Think a little about the claim, and you'll see it really is a serious form of human evil.

>>8221574
All (non-natural) "evil" is contingent on there being humans to do and be on the receiving end of said evils, so how can preventing human births, which would necessitate the prevention of all evils, be itself evil? Everything is just 50 Shades of Evil?

Do you breathe with your mouth open?

>>8206730
This guy has got it. You could pretty much read the Wikipedia page for Will & Rep and know most of what is going to come up in the book. I mean, I agree with him for the most part (Ligotti), but it's tiresome -- not just because of the content (like 10% of reason it's tiresome), but because it's not all that well written/structured. The Lovecraft stuff is completely out of place and should have been a standalone essay. He's a smart guy, and he can sling a coherent sentence, but he's not a philosopher, and he's certainly not saying anything new.

That said, his fiction is actually very good. If you like horror/nihilism, try it out. He's literary and, like I said, a smart guy. You can extract most of what he writes in Conspiracy from his fiction. Or you can just read Schop and Beckett for a better take on the whole deal.

>>8221302
I don't think one should force people to be born without their consent, and there's no other way to be born.

>>8221611

Eliminating the human race would also be eliminating all the worth in the Universe, a far worse crime. All (non natural) good is also contingent on the existence of humans. Such a process would also end up generating large amount to both humans and non-humans.

And please, don't bring up that fucking retarded '' The absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone, but the absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation''

It's literally a shit tier argument.

It's also obvious you haven't read Morioka's work, as your understanding of his claim is superficial at best.

>>8221655
>all the worth in the Universe
Care To Elaborate On That?
>It's literally a shit tier argument.
Then I'm sure you'll have no trouble showing what's wrong with it.

>>8221631

1) Why is lack of consent bad?

2) Humans are the only thing in this Universe that have the luxury of having this ''consent'' at all.

>>8221631
Consent is a construct of consciousness.

>>8221667

>all the worth in the Universe

Follows from the ontological argument.

There are quite a few issues with it.

1) It assumes materialism.

2) It assumes scientific reductonism.

3) It assumes pain is intrinsically bad.

4) It assumes certain definitions of pleasure, pain, happiness and suffering that are very debatable.

5) Doesn't consider that pleasure could vastly outweight pain, in such a way that it would actually be immoral not to give birth.

6) Doesn't work if a god exists.

7) Doesn't consider pain could potentially be eliminated or reduced over time (future human history)

Some other arguments I won't get into, would require a lot more text than this.

>>8221733
>ontological argument
You could have just said you're a retard and saved me 20 minutes.

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>>8221754

> This is the best reply he can come up with

Might be time to kill yourself lad. Doesn't life suck? Aren't you suffering?

Here. Just end it. You'll feel better afterwards.

>>8221680
Personal autonomy.
>>8221731
So?

>>8221733
>1) It assumes materialism.
>2) It assumes scientific reductonism.
Nope.

>>8221881

Yes it does.

>>8221884
How?

>>8221900
Did you read the book?

>>8221931
No but you were talking about a general argument, not just the book.

antinatalism is pretty much the only thing that reaches bump limit on this board other than buddhism threads

bretty negative board desu

>>8222054

Half of the replies are me BTFO'ing the ideology though. In fact, this thread has made me thought of two other arguments I can use to BTFO antinatalist cucks.

>>8222119
>cucks

>>8222119
nope

Why is this book so expensive on amazon?