Reading books is infinitely better than playing video games.

>>7921340
I read 50 books a year. I work slushing shitty poetry for a magazine. Ironically, the poetry I see here is much shittier than what I see at work.

I still play video games almost everyday. I'm 56.

>>7921344
man child confirmed

>>7921340
meme game
>>7921344
>50 books a year
fucking casual.

Im still waiting for good VR, in the mean time I mostly play video games when I'm stoned which usually is just me running around in gtaV in directors mode, killing cops, and admiring ocean sunsets.

For the most part though vidya seems pretty limited in the pleasures it provides, at least right now.

>>7921347
Fuck off to goodreads you pseud

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Vidya is the proper medium for the gesamtkunstwerk. Only a pleb would not know this.

I like Planescape Torment and Dark Souls. Good shit m80s.

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>>7921340

Reading books is tedious, the stories end up being predictable after a while, and the reward is very small. Plus you end up forgetting what you read a few weeks afterwards, so the cost-benefit doesn't make much sense in the long-run.

Once you have a few great books under your belt there really is no point to read as a hobby.

>>7921379
That's anime m8. The show, the drama cds, the cast interviews, live events, magna/LN/VN tie ins. If Wagner was alive today he'd learn Japanese.

it depends what you're reading.

Games are not for manchildren, faggots. Sure, some of them who play are manchildren, but it doesn't make the whole medium shitty. This meme needs to die.

>>7921340
easy gratification

>>7921340
because it's easier to do. simple as that.

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>>7921424
>>7921430

>fighting boss of dark soul
>easy
Hello? Are you guys clinical retard?

Post favorite games.

Space Station 13, Dwarf Fortress, Aurora 4x, Roguelikes (Brogue, DoomRL, Stone Soup, Infra Arcana), Minecraft, Garry's Mod, ENIGMA, Mount and Blade: Warband, Kerbal Space Program, Civilization II/III, Rome Total War, Crusader Kings II, Age of Empires II, Command and Conquer Red Alert, Dark Souls, The Elder Scrolls Oblivion (despite being considered the worst in the series, it's the nostalgia), Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, Nex, Rise of Nations, Sim City 2000. How autistic am I?

>>7921423
Uh, yeah it does. If you play video games, you are a grade-A loser. No fucking question.

>>7921340
I was going to make a thread asking something similar.
Can you tell me /lit/, do you also play video games? Or do you consider them a waste of time?

>>7921442
Deus Ex/Human Revolution, Alien Isolation, Call of Cthulhu Dark Corners of the Earth, No One Lives Forever, Max Payne, Riddick Butcher Bay, Mass Effect.

Still prefer reading books though.

>>7921340
Games simulate real world challenges and rewards. I feel like you're comparing cooking to dancing asking why since cooking is the best so many people still dance. I assume you're silently omitting something about storytelling and immersion that you think books do best. Even if that's true games aren't just storytelling and even if they do tell a story it's like comparing books to movies.

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>>7921436
>DS Boss
>tfw getting ptsd flashbacks of Ornstein and Smough

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>>7921340
Because they're fun. Can't wait to play DS3.

>>7921475
Kenan and Kel ain't shit. They give you plenty of time to heal, and you can use pillars as defense.

Artorias and kalameet are difficult.

>>7921436
It's easier than to build a house or paint a picture or raise a child or harvest crop. That's how games work regardless of the story elements. I'm not trying to insult you here. I play video games but I understand why I do it. It's also easier to read a book about fighting in the trenches than actually do anything like that.

>>7921475
>>7921483

Fighting Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was the pinnacle of vidya.

Art ranking

Music>>>movies>>book>>vidya
Vidya are good but intellectually inferior desu senpai

>>7921447
Very euphoric and enlightened, my good sir! :)

>>7921442
The frustrating thing, person, or place about Gmod when playing TTT is that you will get banned if you are a good player. I have been banned from several servers because I can use simple abductive reasoning; the other players are so inane that they do not even know what abductive reasoning is. Please untie me. For example, when you die you always make a grunting noise and we were in a small area with people dying so I made a mental note on a piece of paper on how many grunts there were and there were 12 grunts out of 14 possible so obviously there would be only one person left beside me, the promiscuous traitor, however when I kill him I am accused of RDM and slain without a fair trial amongst my peers. It's absolutely preposterous the ineptitude; there's no way I'd be the one to beat my whores.

A lot of books are really shit. Even a lot of classics aren't that good. I think the problem is that they are created just one person and maybe an editor. Then because it's 'literary fiction' they get the idea they don't need to tell a real story.

On average a retail video game will be of much higher quality.

The thing is OP. You're just looking at one element of a novel (characterization for example) and saying it's better than everything a video game has to offer -- while ignoring how inferior novels are at world building or action.

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>>7921442
>Stone Soup

that's the only game that interests me atm

if you watch pornography drink or smoke your right to call anyone a manchild is revoked

>>7921436
>>7921475
>Dark souls is hard
I am not at all saying it's easy, it's just that its not hard.
Dmc 4 on DMD is hard, Dark souls is punishing only an idiot finds it hard.

>>7921517

DS has PvP so it's infinitely more "hard" or "challenging" than fighting retarded AI in DMC4

>>7921524
So you haven't played either?

>>7921450
Like with books, or any other media, sometimes you're seeking out an experience, but more often than not you're simply wasting time. I mean, wasting time playing video games is no different from doing the crossword, playing bridge or following a soap opera. Hell, compared to many time wasting activities that used to be more common, I'd even go as as to say they are a step up from what used to constitute as the norm. That said, they can be both time consuming and addictive. Everything in moderation.

whats the book equivalent of dark souls 3

DS is a trial and error game, the only thing hard about it is finding the patience required to grind the same area many times.

Compared to most NES games, DS is nothing.

>>7921549
/lit/ - Literature

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>>7921340
I read, watch anime and occasionally play video games. Fight me niggers.

>>7921530
>So you haven't played either?

how does anything I say imply I haven't played either?

>>7921340
They're different things, they entertain different skills and provide different experiences.

I read so I can explore in depth perspectives and storytelling in a way that my imagination naturally tailors to me in its interpretation of the work giving me a subjective experience. I play Vidya so I can actually interact with the work on a deeper more controlled level which presents active challenges to overcome and a sense of achievement or participation.

>>7921340

>op thought the average /lit/ poster wasn't a man child

>>7921549
>trial and error
Not really, it rewards players who actually pay attention so that errors don't get made in the first place. It's just that most people are used to games where you can savescum your way to victory and death doesn't matter, thus they rush in with the tactic of carelessly fucking up and only learning from their mistakes after they get wrekt.

>>7921340
>Yeah man, message me later and we'll read through the chapter together over the headset

And that's why. Video games are a great social activity. As a kid i had to bike it to my friends to play. Now its online i dont have to move but we can still talk and have a laugh. Its a once a week thing for us now, annoying people on Grand Theft Auto.

Reading is a must and infinitely more important but it is a solo activity and discussed in a group afterwards at best.

>>7921447
You are a loser of the future.

You are automatically sucked into an immersing video game world, stimulating most of your senses. Books require critical thinking and can be just as hard to read as DaS is to play.

>>7921546
Les Chants de Maldoror

>>7921442
Great taste.

>>7921442
>not playing ADOM and poschengband and cataclysm DDA and Caves of Qud
pleb

what a maroon

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>>7921710

>you should play games inferior to DCSS

>>7921340
Because playing video games is infinitely more fun than reading books.

>>7921436
this, i am retarded at games and can't get past the first boss on ds3, but had no trouble with ulysses

>>7921730
>dcss is superior to ADOM
graphicsfag

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>>7921340
>>7921346
samefag

Anyway. Video games are to be used in places where a literary medium would be less effective at conveying tone, meaning, etc., and vice versa. Comparing interactive media to uninteractive is a useless venture.

6/10 made me reply

I'm reading Ulysses and have been playing DaS3 with my buddy since it released. It's funny, when I started getting into actual literature I also started playing exclusively Souls games.


>>7921745
>this post

You haven't read Ulysses you little lying fuck

This thread is disgusting.

/lit/ is dead

Video games have higher utility per perceived hour (it is stimulating as fuck).

Reading has lower utility per perceived hour (stimulating, but not quite as much).

Tragically, reading is still better because perceived hours are much shorter than actual hours in video games.

Consider that a person gets 10 utils per perceived hour while playing Skyrim.

He gets 5 utils per perceived hour if he decides to read some Hume instead.

If he reads Hume for 1 perceived hour, he will get 5 utils, he will think 1 hour passed, and around 1 hour would actually have passed.

If he plays Skyrim for a perceived hour, we will get 10 utils, he will think 1 hour passed but oh, wow, where did the time go, 2.5 hours have passed in actuality, he didn't even notice.
Effectively, he gained 4 utils per real hour by playing skyrim.

So, we need to train millennials to stop craving instantaneous pleasures.

>>7921340
>Reading books is infinitely better than playing video games.
That's quite relative. Games aren't even an art form, so I wouldn't compare the two. Anyway, the people, the "masses", want entertainment. Games are visual, direct, immersive and usually exciting. So are movies and comics, minus the part about immersion. Before them, people had to entertain themselves with pulpy books (ie, the shitty medieval romances) and opera. They always choose the easiest mean of entertainment, so it's no wonder books became outdated for such consumers (who are a majority of people).

>>7921502
2b84me

>>7921442
I haven't defined my favourites, but I love Heroes of Might and Magic, Psychonauts, Machinarium, Mount and Blade and Medieval Total War.

>>7921873
>millennials
I hate this buzzword.

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>>7921340
I read a tremendous amount and still play games. I tend to do mindless stuff like path of exile, or grand strategy (hugely excited for pic related), and sometimes RPGs.

I do feel a bit embarrassed about it when talking to other adults, but Ive never understood why playing vidya after the family has gone to bed has stigma, but the male ritual of drinking and yelling at a football team on a TV is considered a pillar of our culture.

>>7921884
>Games aren't even an art form, so I wouldn't compare the two
This. Its mindless entertainment, and you can only read Infinite Jest so many times.

>>7921896
>Its mindless entertainment
Actually, that's not what I meant. When I say games aren't art, I try to objectively classify them (I could similarly say that chemistry isn't art), it has nothing to do with their quality or the creator's intention.

>>7921436
its not hard, you're just shit at it.
P.S. I'm a certified DS boss, if you didn't know already.

>>7921873
Utilitarian, pls go

>>7921546

Book of the New Sun is the Dark Souls of lit.

>>7921873
UTILITARIANS GET OUT

>>7921436
DS/DeS games being hard is a meme. Once you get into the swing of things most of the gameplay becomes relatively formulaic

>>7921873

are you still gaping from that enormous ass-pull

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>>7921340

>So, tell me, e/lit/ists, why do so many teenagers and man children still play video games?

Around middle school and also into high school many males find that the things they enjoy most outside of school are television, video games, sports, skateboarding, being hooligans. etc. They only read when they are forced to for school and homework and so they associated books with work and not pleasure.

There are always people in this stage reading YA-fantasy or books about sports but most people in this age range don't read for pleasure much. This mindset often continues into late high school and college because both schoolwork and social life become more demanding and because many people fail to have the realization that reading books can feel as rewarding as having a great time socializing or doing well in game of sports etc.

There are many people who simply don't see the value of reading for pleasure when they could play video games or try to get laid etc. Anti-intellectualism is also very prevalent among certain areas, segments of the population, age-groups, subcultures etc.

>>7922067
This is how I felt in high school. I am glad I started reading again when I was 22 (can't even remember how it started).
The reason more adults don't read then is because they never gave it a chance after having the bad taste in their mouth from school.

>>7922067
I actually find that it has to do with a weak father figure. Everyone I know that is addicted or plays a lot has/had a weak father figure. I was raised by a single mother, best friend's dad was an alcoholic, other friends dad is a journalist and travels, other friends dad died from cancer the year before he started playing video games a lot. It is almost always due to a weak father figure. I'm also talking about people that have 1000 hours in CSGO, LoL, etc. not just some casual that plays from time to time.

Literature is a dying medium that is controlled by artfaggots, as Icycalm would call them. (inb4 "U hate books!??" No, I don't mean more than what I said).

Its easy being a pretentious person who says that every medium after 18XX is not Art.

>>7921502
>On average a retail video game will be of much higher quality.
On average a retail video game will be of disposable quality. Play it then discard it. Most titles are iterations of previous titles. New games are meant to supplant the old games. They're built for obsolescence in the way books are not.

>>7922873

If the Department of Video Game Studies popped up in Harvard next week to pump out papers about the influence of hippie cultures in Mario's mushrooms then the pseuds like you would suddenly care.

>>7922837
>Literature is a dying medium
Its preservation is already assured. On the other hand Vidya is an ouroboros.

It's more quickly rewarding.

>>7922878
If a Vidya company released the latest iteration of Shootanopolis, you'd resign the previous version to the trash to obtain the new one. Gamers don't even care about their own medium.

>>7921340

They seek instant gratification and a false sense of accomplishment. Or they're babies and enjoy the shining, flashing lights on the monitor or television.

Which reminds me: why do so many manchildren like LEDs on theiir computers and peripherals? Is it the baby thing or are they just retarded?

>tfw my case, keyboard, and mouse have LEDs
I fucking hate the look but the former 2 were extremely cheap compared to other choices, and I couldn't find a wired mouse that had everything I needed that didn't have those ghastly lights.

>>7921804
>56
>on 4chan
>plays video games
You're the definition of a manchild

>>7921855
This thread is proof that there is no God and that the average 4chan poster should be shot.

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>mfw book-only fags are scared by active participation or achievement and thus offended by vidya

Is it because its too challenging for you? Would you rather just sit around and have everything explained to you in a book without any real hard work on your part? If so, you're worse than manchildren, you're a vegetable.

I mean, have you ever seen someone from /lit/ put this much intellectual effort into a book? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A

>>7921340

Same reason you waste your precious hours on /lit/

>>7921406
>anime saved us from an other Wagner

I'm grateful to be honest

>>7921379

Wagner was a neckbeard. You learn everyday.

>>7921340
the only games worth playing are those that are mechanically brilliant imo. storytelling is shit in vidya

>>7923063
I've seen it a couple of times. Every day I search and yearn for it

>>7921491
Wow, you're fucking retarded. Music and movies literally incorporate music.

>>7921405
>Playing video games is atrophic, the stories end up being predictable after a while and the reward isn't real. Plus you end spending $39.99+ for a new game a few weeks afterwards, so the cost-benefit doesn't make much sense in the long-run.

>Once you have a few great games under your belt there really is no point in gaming as a hobby (because they're all the same and achieve nothing)

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>If /v/ saw /lit/'s favourite games, they would call /lit/ plebs

>If /lit/ saw /v/'s favourite books, they would call /v/ plebs

>>7921340
>the activity I prefer is superior to other activities
>tell me why the other people are stupid

I get sad when I realise that this is how people try to overpower their personal problems.
Identifcation with one sort of medium is not going to solve anything in your life, please stop being such a stupid asshole.
thanks

>>7923145
>implying /v/ is the /lit/ of video games
They'd sooner shitpost about feminism than actually talk about video games. Literally all of the best game taste comes from anywhere BUT /v/, even /lit/ has better taste in games.

>>7923172
But a fair observation on both boards, right?

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Video games are extremely rewarding, hyper-stimulating, because your brain can't really separate the game from reality. This is precisely why they are so fun.

This can develop into a problem, and affect neurochemistry in some individuals (it's linked to pre-nata testosterone exposure).

They also tend to be flat intellectually compared to books, they are not efficient at conveys indeas and nuanced concepts. They are really fun, but not the most efficient way, in terms of time spent playing vs time spent reading, and in terms of time spent thinking, exploring characters, or themes, or constructing the world realistically.

They can be very easily used as escapism, whereas it is much harder to escape with a book: obviously it depends on the genre of book, but books tend to be much more linked with society. You see yourself in a book more often. It causes you to think about reality and the world you live in. Most video games allow you to turn off very easily, and are designed in such a way. They are designed to hijack your reward circuitry: the more it can do this, the more successful the game will be, and therefore the more games that will be designed in such a way. Very few games hold the intellectual clout of say Bioshock and Half Life, and the concepts within would have been better explored in book form by a quality author if the only thing that mattered was exploration of the ideas. However, video games are more fun.

The hierarchy of escapism to reality is as follows
Most Video Games > Anime or Cartoons > Fantasy Media > Sci-Fi Media > TV > Regular Movies > Regular Books

In short: video games are very fun, possibly the most fun medium, but not necessarily the best, and you may be taking out a loan of happiness when you play them at the expense of the rest of your life. It's up to you to decide if that applies to you or not. Hyper-stimulation in our current era is a real problem. The future's brightest, our university students, are constantly distracted with various forms of media and stimulation. Better is not always necessarily better, the brain is a fickle instrument, and dopamine possibly the cruelest mistress. Beware the lengths people will go to defend their dopamine hit.

>>7923198
Not truly, because /v/ neither plays video games or reads books, it's almost entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. A better example may be /vg/.

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I quit vidya and read books now instead.
>nothing but pleb games
>1000 hours clocked on TF2
>4+ months on WoW
>a year with LoL on and off
>Touching 200 hours on TBoI
>loads of other shit and wasted money, disks sitting on shelves

>tfw those wasted teenage years I'll never have back
>tfw other people are very happy playing vidya when I just got tired and unhappy
>tfw I don't have anyone to talk to about books
>just like I had no one to talk or play with vidya much

>>7923202
The constant stimulation offered by games are actually what help a lot of people become these bright university students. It's easy to fall into the idea that 100 years ago all these brilliant people would be uncovering the secrets of the world in their boredom rather than distracting themselves, but the truth is pretty different.

Many of them simply wouldn't exist, video games for many growing up with them offer a gateway to having an interest in solving these challenges that usually wouldn't be present in everyday life, be they solving puzzles to subconsciously calculating the position of everything within a 3d space to just tactics and so on. For many it has become a means of escapism, but for many it has also become a means of experiencing and mastering scenarios one may not usually find themselves in or find fun in. As a result, games can help stimulate areas of the brain that are essential for learning and practicing practical concepts as well as just keeping the brain active and healthy. This applies to books too, reading has been shown to have a similar effect, outside of the experience of a book just reading in general trains a person's brain to memorize and calculate better. And much like games today, during the popularization of books or literacy many saw it as a means of escapism or a distraction for those darn kids who should be talking about crops with their fellow peasant.

>>7923259
Interesting, and while the benefits of mild video game play have been demonstrated in some people, I don't feel they are necessary in creating university students, and hyper-stimulation in general has probably killed many a scientific paper that could have been.

>>7923230
we are together in common experience

>>7921347
>>7921347
If you have time for 100 more books you either don't have a wife/kids/many friends or you don't have a career to put your time into

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Yo, /lit/ I got 2 Audible points for free books this month and I'm looking for something to listen too while playing DS3.

So far I've finished Gumption by Nick Offerman, a funny and informative book about great Americans through history. Baptism of Fire, 3rd Witcher book and now I have no interest in continuing THAT series in novel form. Then the Vol'Jin Warcraft book which was pretty great.

Any other good comedic celeb Bios or niche fantasy books good for juxtaposing DS3's atmosphere?

I only read novel adaptations of video games, so I have the best of both worlds.

Truly, I am the king of the Patricians.

>>7923407
This guy gets it.

>>7921442
Ss13, my new friend. What server did you play on?

>>7924228
I don't really play on a single server. /tg/station or baystation usually. One time while captain, my Head of Security allegedly raped a female assistant after she stole something from him, so I had to talk to them both about it after HoS denied the allegations. She wept. Somehow after a very strange and long conversation about what exactly happened she managed to get a gun out and fire a few shots into the HoS but I managed to secure her before she killed him. I made a deal with them both that the wounds inflicted upon the man was enough punishment, oh yes he did confess to the rape, and they both agreed. My words don't give justice to how crazy this interaction was; I quit for a couple years afterwards.

>>7921340
Probably kikes.

>>7921340
You can't like two things?

Both reading and playing are basically stepping into a new reality, they have lots of similarities.

Why are you hating?

>>7921507
>he thinks drinking alcohol is for manchildren

>>7921340
Dark Souls is a story about the eternal recurrence. It offers a simple narrative for a complex story about the endless cycle of heroes sacrificing themselves on the bonfire of humanity to keep the gods alive, saving the world from the nihilism that would flow from their deaths. Or the player can walk away from this cycle, refuse his destiny, letting the gods die, ushering in a world where the monsters slowly die off and men come to rule.

Of course even if you do this another hero will rekindle the flame, the cycle is inescapable.

Really though it does have a cool story and actually takes advantage of the medium in telling it. Most games spoon feed you a linear narrative which is fucking stupid. Linear narratives with 1-3 main characters are a tool for telling a story in a short time, you're supposed to stick to that formula in cinema and short story writing where you can't expect someone's attention for much more than an hour and a half.

A full length novel gives you more opportunities to be descriptive, flesh out a world a bit more, have other characters and their thoughts. A video game gives you the opportunity to do this to the extreme.

It's a shame that super high development costs for games that aren't indie dogshit end up limiting the medium as a storytelling platform. Quality products have to be highly commercial by necessity and as such tend to pander to the lowest common denominator.

>>7923338
Wow I'm quite insulted!

I've been gaming since I was 5. Been a serious CoD fag especially for 8 years, and I love it. I play games to relax at the end of a long day. It's my way of letting loose. I've been getting more into different genres like Witcher, Dark Souls, Killer Instinct, and such lately to broaden my horizons. I read as well, for a different form of entertainment, and because it's food for the intellect.

>>7921553
Because PvP in dark souls but especially 3 is easy as shit because of all the plebs.
And no all pvp isn't harder than top level DMC playing

>>7923338
>you either don't have a wife/kids
Yes, im not an imbecile.

>>7921873
But skyrim is shit so ten minutes would feel like a day.

They're both nice. Why can't the two things be ok?

The best games are ones with that train and demand skills like reaction time, pattern recognition, situational awareness, etc.

Most games these days can hardly even be considered games, just interactive experiences; an extension of Hollywood.

>>7921340
because strategy and grand strategy games are fun and slav wasteland fantasies

>>7923132
>life is entropic, the days end up being predictable after a while and the reward isn't real. Plus you end up spending thousands in health insurance for a few weeks of extended life every year, so the cost-benefit doesn't make much sense in the long-run.

>Once you have a couple great years under your belt there really is no point in life as a state of being (because it's all the same and achieves nothing)

>>7923259
>>7923287
Look up "TIS-100," "Space Chem," and "Myst."

>>7923202
>>7923259
>>7923287
What about Civilization-style game where you grind and grind and grind and position to get a strategic advantage some 100 turns later?

Some delayed satisfaction, yes?

>>7922067
Thanks anon, I will change my ways.

>>7922962
seriously who goes on 4chan when they're fucking 56 years old

>>7921340
Better in what sense? As far as immersive entertainment goes, video games are 10,000x better than books. Meanwhile, books are the best in terms of learning things and having philosophical discourse.

>>7921406
Not all anime, though. It's more common with the Japanese than anywhere else in the world, but really only some anime franchises make the full use of art media that they can. Though it's almost guaranteed that if an anime is even remotely successful, it will have a tie in video game. And since most anime comes from manga to begin with, they already have western media beat on 3 fronts.
Over here we have Star Wars and Lord of the Rings as good examples. Both have books, movies, and video games, but Star Wars also has TV shows now too. Both have large cosplaying communities, though the SW community is probably larger. Star Wars has live events and interviews for sure, so it definitely comes close.

Man, all this multimedia franchise shit just makes you excited for the future, doesn't it?

>>7925296
its not exactly making the stories any better so I'm just like "meh"

I'll take a single well written short story over some sprawling chimeric bullshit anyday.

>>7921447
????????

But there is a lot of video gaming that isn't just swining a sword around. There are puzzles and games like tetris or minesweeper that are just a way to kill time at work.
What about playing Mario Bros or Super Mario Kart with the kids?
What about Wii sports because I'm too pale to go outside without my skin evaporating off?

The opinion that video games are for manchildren or losers is probably assuming that all video games are like WoW or whatever the fuck neckbeards are playing, but that's not the case.

>>7921458
Then again, some of the best stories have been told through video games, so even when comparing books and video games on the basis of storytelling, I feel like lot's of video games do tell at LEAST as good of a story as most mediocre books I've read. Immersion is a matter of taste, and if you don't like video games then you just won't be immersed and that probably can't be helped.

>>7925294
your fucked in da head

>>7925297
It doesn't necessarily make the story better, but it doesn't automatically make it worse, either.

For someone who's in love with that setting or that story, having loads of content is like being a kid in a candy store. I don't think it hurts in that case.

>>7925294

Truly ebin. Now leave this board.

>>7925310
I can agree with that. Infact a wide range increases the chance for some gems at least. Halo had a few decent books here and there, so did Star Wars if I know right.

>>7925309
Video games have text, visuals, audio, cinematics, and a complex interactive element. Books have text, very rarely visuals, and occasionally an interactive element, but aside from the text none of these things are the focus or as complex.

So as far as being able to immerse you into a fantasy world, video games definitely win. You are a fucking crazy backwards-thinking pseud if you think otherwise.

>>7925317
To go along with that point. I really liked the book they made based on Resistance: Fall of Man. Hated the video game, though.

>>7925324
Immersion is a relative term. Anyone who seriously read books or any other media knows you can just as easily be immersed in a book or movie as any videogame.

The interactivity factor of video-games is rather irrelevant, what matters more is your own state of awareness while playing the game.

There are a great many high-budget AAA games with well-directed sounds, visuals, and smooth controls, but just arent fun to experience so you get taken out of it. Ubisoft games are notorious for this.

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>>7925324
NIGGA THE AUDIO, VISUALS, AND CINEMATICS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING IN YOUR HEAD, NIGGA

>>7921893
American football is fucking stupid and soccer is even worse. Only good sports are #BASEketball and hockey. Even then I hardly watch them. Only good reason to watch television/Netflix is when you have already stacked enough reading hours. To the point where if you saw one more comma your head would fucking explode

>>7925331
>Immersion is a relative term.
I know that.

>Anyone who seriously read books or any other media knows you can just as easily be immersed in a book or movie as any videogame.
Just as easily, but the end product is inferior. Having to imagine the fantasy world on my own is not the same. You end up experiencing more of yourself than of the artists' creation. I hardly consider that being better at immersion, which is about feeling yourself placed within something.

>The interactivity factor of video-games is rather irrelevant, what matters more is your own state of awareness while playing the game.
Sounds kinda like something someone who doesn't play as many games as he reads books would say.

>>7925344
It sounds like you just don't read.

And trust me, I've played far more videogames than I have read books so far (probably more than you in both ends). Particularly the games people readily classify as being very immersive.

If you're not into the game, or book for that matter, you wont be immersed. I dropped Dragon's Dogma because of its shitty offline MMO gameplay. But you wouldn't believe how immersed I - and so many others - could get immersed into a roguelike which is traditionally just fucking text.

Guess what else is all text?

>Having to imagine the fantasy world on my own is not the same. You end up experiencing more of yourself than of the artists' creation. I hardly consider that being better at immersion, which is about feeling yourself placed within something.

Reading is all about the interaction between you and the text, the better reader you are the more you get out of a book. You wanting to be handheld through an experience is your own problem, not that of books.

And in all honestly, why are we even placing so much value on the simple factor of immersion when we already established any which medium has its own well established ways of doing it?

>>7925344
>Sounds kinda like something someone who doesn't play as many games as he reads books would say.

But Ubi DOES suck at immersion, anon

>>7925369
I should also add that books can become extremely immersive, moreso than videgoames by virtue of the fact that authors have infinitely more room to expand on certain aspects of the world and get into the fine, intimate details. Whereas videogames are consistently limited by their budget, manpower and deadlines.

If you seriously have a story to tell, literature is among the best and most practical ways to do it (perhaps the best). Not so much a videogame.

>>7925369
>Particularly the games people readily classify as being very immersive.
>But you wouldn't believe how immersed I - and so many others - could get immersed into a roguelike which is traditionally just fucking text
I hope you're not talking about DF. That shit is for new wave casual pseuds and the game sucks total balls under the criteria of immersion in 21st century games. Roguelikes were immersive when the serious entries to the genre were being made 20+ years ago.

I don't really care what most people online think about what's immersive these days. Most people online have only the faintest clue about this shit and started playing games around the 90s (which is why their understanding is limited).

You call it hand-holding but this is besides the point and you just trying to twist the subject to suit you better. Immersion is SUPPOSED to be about how well you can feel yourself placed within a fictional world. Books just don't compare on this level, and unless you're a master artist yourself, whatever you imagine while reading will often not be as awesome as what a whole team of pro artists can create visually, audibly, etc. We also have these senses, and whatever does not take full advantage of the human experience (which involves all these senses) is a less immersive work for humans.

So, you could be right that books are more immersive. But that would make you not human.

>>7921340
>So, tell me, e/lit/ists, why do so many teenagers and man children still play video games?
>So, tell me, e/lit/ists, why do dumb people do dumb stuff?

>>7925396
Books already surpassed videogames in immersion before they were even born. Stop deluding yourself.

> Books just don't compare on this level, and unless you're a master artist yourself, whatever you imagine while reading will often not be as awesome as what a whole team of pro artists can create visually, audibly, etc.
lol your development team would run out of budget and get fucked in the ass by EA before they even touch upon an inkling of the awesome shit you can get from the most imaginative books.

And even then it wouldn't even be a game, since they invested so much on visuals.

>We also have these senses, and whatever does not take full advantage of the human experience (which involves all these senses) is a less immersive work for humans.

This really does show you dont read much, the best authors ALWAYS engage all of the senses. What videogame seriously engages your sense of smell and taste? The best thing they really touch upon is Sound and Vision, and to a lesser extent Touch.


You're a fucking pleb for focusing so much on spectacle, btw. May I recommend you Michael Bay?

>>7925396
>and unless you're a master artist yourself, whatever you imagine while reading will often not be as awesome as what a whole team of pro artists can create visually, audibly, etc.
this would be true if imagination wasn't a completely different thing to the senses

i mean seriously you really don't think that when you imagine a thing it's like you're drawing it up and viewing it in your head like a comic book thought bubble

you shouldn't accept everything icycalm says uncritically

>>7925410
>Books already surpassed videogames in immersion before they were even born
If this were the case, humanity wouldn't have continued tinkering away towards new mediums. We would have stopped at books because they were the ultimate artistic experience. But they aren't, hence why we are here now, with many other mediums aside from books, and with many of them far more popular than books.

>lol your development team would run out of budget and get fucked in the ass by EA before they even touch upon an inkling of the awesome shit you can get from the most imaginative books.
Nice bro. Keep pushing that anti-AAA shlock, it definitely makes you look sophisticated and in-the-know, and not like you're just parroting the bullshit spewing out of autistic children's fingers as they mash their keyboards and write on internet forums run by equally retarded monkeys.

>>7925444
>you shouldn't accept everything icycalm says uncritically
I don't. I accept it after taking it to the brain-lab and running hundreds of tests on it, and then taking it to heart where it'll endure the test of spirit in order to pass.

>>7925245
you will in a few decades, anon.

>>7925478
Actually address my points then come back.

The fact that books surpass videogames in immersion dosent negate their impact or that of other mediums, its just the simple fact of the matter.

>>7925478
>If this were the case, humanity wouldn't have continued tinkering away towards new mediums. We would have stopped at books because they were the ultimate artistic experience.
actually even if they find the best thing there is they would still search for something that might be even better, just doesn't mean that they'll succeed

>Nice bro. Keep pushing that anti-AAA shlock, it definitely makes you look sophisticated and in-the-know, and not like you're just parroting the bullshit spewing out of autistic children's fingers as they mash their keyboards and write on internet forums run by equally retarded monkeys.

his point isn't anti-AAA though

>>7921340
I think video games are fun from times to times, just don't let your life revolve around it.

I personally play a casual videogame an hour or two a day. It's fun. Films and literature are superior though.

>>7925493
>Actually address my points then come back.
Well, I kinda already did, at least in the way of pointing out how, in terms of the world around us and what human history for the past few thousand years tells us, your statement doesn't hold up at all. But whatever.

Right now, video games are in the lead, with true VR (which is on the horizon, because people want it, because people of more refined taste know it will be better than what we have now) replacing it in the near future (few hundred years probably). They are in the lead because they take greater advantage of appealing to our senses. A writer simply writes about what things look like, what they smell like, what kind of sound is made, etc. The reader has nothing to go on but the symbols on the page (language) which bring forth dreamy, somewhat altered memories of things he has experienced in the physical world. Now, in the future, true VR might work similarly to this, but the thing is, interpreting the world through symbols on a page is just not as human as really seeing the color and the motion in front of you, or the sounds and music actually bouncing off your ear drums, like a movie or video game makes possible. These things connect to us more on a human level.

But all in all, my original point is still totally valid and hits the nail on the head. The fact is that the world did not stop at books, and it is on the very healthy and natural path towards VR as we speak.

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/v/ is ALWAYS right :^)

>>7925511

if you truly think that film is superior to anything, then it's time to commit suicide

>>7925523
We're talking about proper films here, not your average Tarantino or Nolan garbage.

>>7925517
The best you're going to get out of VR is better raining simulations, shitty porn games, and an overall superficial peripheral for normal games. Dedicated VR games are already being met with a lukewarm response and are proving impractical for everyday play.

I also think you severely misinterpret the purpose of art, its far more than digging your head into some fantasy world.

>The fact is that the world did not stop at books
I never said it did. read again.

>>7925531
The "VR" we're seeing now is nothing like it will be in the future. What we're seeing now is an awkward transition into it. In the future it will be more like pumping chemicals into your body and altering your brainwaves in order to simulate a physical (yet fictional) world.

What do you think is the purpose of art?

>I never said it did. read again.
You didn't have to say it, I am pointing it out.

>>7921340
nah

>>7921340
We're not in the early 90's anymore. Video games are a lot more complex than they used to be, some require critical thinking. Not to mention some games provide a pleasurable social experience. You wouldn't call a group of men playing a game of cards "man-children" would you?

>>7925542
The purpose of art is to educate people about the world, help them learn about themselves, and remind them of the highest virtues.

The "immersion factor" is just an aid in the process and is inherent in all art. Its honestly pointless to focus on that so much in itself, since it then boils down to worshiping the golden calf.

And that there is also exactly why videogames largely went to shit. All flash and no substance. Its there in literature too, but not in such high degrees as in games.

>>7925557
>The purpose of art is to educate people about the world, help them learn about themselves, and remind them of the highest virtues.
DISAGREED

But you knew that I would, I hope.

I strongly share Nietzsche's view of the subject, which Icycalm outlined in his book, here:

http://culture.vg/features/art-theory/on-the-genealogy-of-art-games.html

Scroll down to where Nietzsche's quote starts about "Artists continually glorify — they do nothing else — all those states and things that are reputed to give man the opportunity to feel good for once, or great, or intoxicated, or cheerful, or well and wise." and read up until he ends it off with "a game that fails to give pleasure is quite simply a bad game". Of course, maybe you read this already so you don't need to then.

It comes down to what "art" is. This is a philosophical question. If you haven't been reading Nietzsche for very long, you might not see what he's talking about right away. I have been reading him for almost a decade now so what's being said there is practically instinctual to me.

There have been times where art was USED to educate and create idols of worship through, but that has always been an ulterior motive of the artist(s) or whoever is funding the art. It is also not the deepest level of action behind art — the deeper level is that art is about praise. If you praise education it will come through in your art. The virtues you praise the most will come through in your art. But we enjoy our art, because what we praise pleases us, and art has been evolving over the millennia in order to become increasingly more pleasing.

>>7921517
I think the thing about dark souls is its gameplay is very different from most games. When I started playing I found it enormously hard, now the vast majority of it is barely a challenge but I don't think I've improved in my dexterity or decision making, just learnt how to apply existing skills to dark souls.

>>7921524
But in that sense its no harder than any pvp game that isn't heavily luck based, but ds pvp is shit.

>>7921966
2nd'd

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>>7923407

>>7925587
I really don't give a damn what Nietzsche or this icycalm dude said. Come with your own knowledge. If you cant break it down right here then what do you really understand?

I've read, watched, played, listened and experienced enough to know the power of art and what it can do for people. Seeing good art is very pleasurable for sensible people, and it becomes a distinct pleasure the more you're exposed to it. Only plebs are content with the bland and mediocre, the cheap, vulgar and disjointed.

Art in its essence is expression, not praise, praise is merely an effect of the skill-in-action that it took to create the thing. People love to praise, the artist loves to express. An artist conscious of the highest virtues will create the best, most impactful art.

There's a reason why the likes of Dante, Shakespeare and Homer have survived for so long, people have continually grasped the core of their writings and are captivated by it. That alone proves there is more to art than the face value of imagery or plot, such things are just vehicles for the core to be expressed.

>playing is easier than reading
maybe if you are semiliterate, this could be true
dark souls>any book

>>7925654
>Come with your own knowledge
I came with my own knowledge when I encountered these writers, and came to support them wholeheartedly because of it. I've encountered hundreds of others and glossed over them because they didn't resonate with me like they did.

THIS IS my knowledge now, that these guys proved themselves as authorities on the subjects, and what they said is worth referencing. What I would have said, they have already said, and in a much better style than I would have at this point (since they were both 12-15 years older than me and in their prime upon writing this stuff, while I am still more or an apprentice).

>Art in its essence is expression, not praise
But in the act of expressing a thing in art, it is being praised, otherwise the artist would not want to express it. No artist would include in his/her work a thing which they did not want to be there; everything in an artwork is there to represent the artist's expression, i.e. to serve it. Even faggots that throw cans of paint at a canvas are doing this — they may not have known exactly how the paint would splash onto the canvas and make its mark, but they wanted to have that random splash regardless, or they wouldn't have done it (and I'm not talking about people who just did these things for money, they aren't even a part of the discussion of artists here; CON artists, maybe).

And by praise, I mean "affirmation, deification of existence" as Nietzsche wrote. The artist wants to affirm and deify. Even ugly art, or tragic art, is about this affirmation. This is why myself and some others go on about how there is really no "ugly art" — it's an oxymoron, because the ugliness is there because the artist wanted it there, because the artist meant to affirm its existence, praise it, deify it. And so "ugly art" and tragic art is still about pleasure.

The purpose of art is pleasure. More immersion = more pleasure. And really, many kids would agree; I don't mean kids as in snotty 15 year olds, but as in 5 and 10 year olds who are still driven purely by their natural instincts and not yet convoluted by all the bullshit of society. Innocent kids who dream of being some god-like character in a lush fantasy world. Those desires are natural and good, and art should strive to satisfy them. It should strive to immerse us deeper and deeper into our fantasy, because this pleases us.

Art as an instrument of education and discipline is for old farts who lost this innocence and are more concerned with social dominance over their wealthier or prettier peers, or maybe never had it, because their parents emasculated them immediately as children, or the environment they grew up in never gave them the time of day to develop such fantasies, or they are quite simply dumbasses with no imagination whatsoever.

>>7925307
>then again, some of the best stories have been told through video game

Meh, most stories in video games have to have a black or white ending where the protagonist solves an issue. Those who write games are at the mercy of everyone else. Maybe their original story was complex and had characters that seemed real. But to convey these to a player involves more than just writers, it goes through directors, other writers, producers, voice actors, programmers.

I'll give video games the benefit of the doubt that they just need more time before we hit a medium of story telling that isn't full of cliché or stupidly convoluted writing, I.E. Bioshock infinite... God the ending was stupid.

>>7921340
It is obvious that you are only here to start a fight. This will be the only response you get from me. FUCK OFF YOU MAN-CHILD.

Because video games are just better.

>>7923230
the memory of books
the memories of video gaming
which can you most foundly remember, now?

>>7921379
Fucking /lit/ards you're using german words like weebs use sugoi.

>>7921340
Why does one have to come over the other? Stop being a fag.

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>>7925307
>some of the best stories have been told through video games
lol

Such as?

>Not enjoying both
I do spend more time reading than playing though