How does Chaucer reconcile the fact that he incorporated pre

>>7906621
By "pre Christian pagan mythology" are you referring to the fart jokes?

>>7906623
no, I mean the use of Greek gods

In fact, I find it weird/interesting that Middle Ages Christian authors took materials off "pagan" religions

>>7906623
>>7906627

just adding on, I understand why Chaucer used fabliau, I just don't understand how a Christian in that time period could justify a story about non Christian deities.

>>7906621
the same way Dante, Petrarch and Boccaccio did. It's the Renaissance m8.

>>7906627
The black and white orthodox Christianity is a more modern invention. Who do you think preserved all we know about and have from the Greeks and Romans? Christians.

>>7906633
>>7906640

so what was the logic at the time for doing that?
I don't have much knowledge of euro history

>>7906640
was it because judeo christian beliefs were more or less influenced by romans?

because iirc islam was shunned by Christianity (shaitan etc) even though they (from my perspective) shared common roots

>>7906621
a better question would be "what common elements exist between greek and christian theology"

>>7906653
There were debates within Christianity during the Middle Ages on the nature of God, the use of idols for worship, and many other facets of belief (remember that humans of today are no better at reasoning than the Megafauna killers ten thousand years ago, we just have more to go on) and the only people you could rely on outside your holy book were pagans of the past of which a few were retroactively made saints or saintly.

It's pretty interesting really, of older political thought, Plato and the Stoics made it down pretty well likely because their metaphysics never contradict the bible's and in Plato's case even sort of match up with them.

TLDR: Christians considered some pagans sort of pre-Christian Christians.

>>7906665
so breaking it down,
>debates on Christian theology
>people look to theological traditions of the past to find identifiable and relatable aspects
>certain Hellenic philosophies are more or less compatible with Christianity of the time

but Catholics ended up persecuting idol worshipping and pagans, so what happened?

File: 1458281574198.jpg (130KB, 712x950px) Image search: [Google]

130KB, 712x950px

>>7906665
by the way thank you for your answer
here's a picture of a beautiful European woman

I think you people are making a mess. Christianity clashed with pagan philosphies and insitutions, but the vast majority of apologist and early church fathers come from an obvious greek cultural background (many of them were pagan in their youth). Point is, since the beginning Christianity had to fend for itself using greek cultural tools. Platonism, especially the Middle-platonism. Then the Empire falls in the west and all this historical perspective and "cross-cultural" references are lost. All that remains is the church father. Fast forward to the Charlemagne period, and we have a relatively peaceful continent in which civil life starts again. This means there's a need for rethorician and "grammatici" and so a bunch of latin works conserved in monasteries becomes important again. Cicero and Virgil in particular. This was also the time when contacts with the arabian cultures meant more classical greek works, especially Aristotle, started being translated. And there you have it. By the time Chaucer wrote greek classics were part of the cultural background of every literate christian. Sure there were some resistances and conflicts, but it mostly was a case by case basis: so Epicureans, like Lucretius, were atheist shits, Stoics were also not particuarly concerned with god(s) but they were good moralists, Plato is a-ok (sometimes he's even depicted like a proto-Moses), Aristotle talks about one god and love and all there's in between so...

The of course the particular mythos were more often than not interpreted in a proto-christian way, like allegory of christian virtues or for example like somewhat divinely inspired like Virgil's fourth Eclogue.

File: 1458281103863.jpg (319KB, 780x866px) Image search: [Google]

319KB, 780x866px

>>7906710
Wow, great post
thank you

>>7906621
>How does Chaucer reconcile the fact that he incorporated pre Christian pagan mythology into works (Canterbury Tales) intended for a Christian audience, with his Christian beliefs?

The justificaiton was that the Pagan Gods existed in the ancient past as demonic (or amoral) spirits. When Jesus Christ arrived he killed them all. Now they only exist in history books.

>>7906710
So this explains how Chaucer was able to incorporate pagan myth into his works (like other Renaissance writers) but I don't know if it answers how he reconciled it with his beliefs or the fact that it was for a Christian audience.

Were they more lax about Hellenic mythos because of the links you mentioned?

>>7906721
>Were they more lax about Hellenic mythos because of the links you mentioned?

well yes, but you also have to factor than these wroks were not meant for the superstious pleb, but educated class which couldn't resist the beauty of classical literature.

And then of course there's all the theological arguments which justify it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_pagan

By the time of the Renaissance all the gates were opened so we have Erasmus of Rotterdam saying: "Sancte Socrates, ora pro nobis".

>>7906710
^ this isn't at all at odds with >>7906668 or >>7906665

>>7906729
>these wroks were not meant for the superstious pleb, but educated class

So did I just have the wrong assumption to begin with?
I thought Chaucer specifically wrote The Canterbury Tales for a wider audience

>>7906736
Literacy wasn't widespread at that time.

>>7906741
oops, haha
but I meant that there's a debate about the intended audience of The Canterbury Tales

>>7906748
well I wouldn't know about that, my knowledge of english literature is high-school tier, but that's how I think it all worked at the time, also considering Chaucer's wasn't the first to embody pagan motifs in literature, maybe the first in English literature, but again I wouldn't know about that.

>>7906721
As >>7906719 said, they were co-opted as demons because the appeal was just too great. IIRC there are a couple lines somewhere in the Canterbury tales saying the exemplary nature of the tales or characters goes despite their having been idolatres, or something along these lines.
Still, I see where you're coming from, the denunciations seem half-hearted in comparison with all the traditional descriptions and positive attributes the gods are given in the tales -- even though a lot of these passages are direct translations from Chaucer's sources, those sources aren't always pagans either. I would assume that like most people he just wasn't a hardass retard about his religion before his deathbed.

>>7906736
He mentions people having the tales "read to" them, and he was writing in vernacular English as opposed to Latin or French, so it certainly wasn't meant to be restricted to the elite.

File: 1458280792498.jpg (566KB, 1280x1762px) Image search: [Google]

566KB, 1280x1762px

>>7906729
almost forgot

>>7906777
much appreciated

File: 1445027167155.jpg (52KB, 640x880px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 640x880px

Today when I look at fights over religions, I conclude that the those are actually faux reasons and it's more that some people are mad at others for reasons about resources/control/class etc.
Isn't that so and was it ever different?

In particular, I find it odd people had arguments over multi- vs. monotheism. Isn't it the case that people just fight over something and those religious questions are just make believe points that don't honestly matter for people who recognize that the other guy just grew up with some other indoctrination?

>>7906772
Thank you kindly for your post

the question still remains though...

>Chaucer incorporates Greek gods for reasons above
>justifies this decision by adding a sort of inb4, denouncing pagan gods

^ is this more or less correct?

File: 1458389206278.jpg (101KB, 812x1000px) Image search: [Google]

101KB, 812x1000px

>>7906772
so Chaucer definitely doesn't want his work to be read only by the intelligentsia, incorporated Greek mythic elements because of how Hellenic philosophical traditions and cultural influences is intertwined with Christianity, and justifies the inclusion of pagans in a story for Christians by adding in half hearted disclaimers

File: 1458281318853.jpg (150KB, 1080x1350px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 1080x1350px

>>7906779
don't mention it

>>7906710
can someone verify this

>>7906621
Read his retraction.

>>7906871
we have no way of knowing by what intention the retraction was written, or if it was added posthumously

ITT : [citation needed]

>>7906627
If modern day Christians can read the Illiad than why couldn't they do it in those days?

I mean the work of Plato and Aristotle were some of the most important works they had in those days.

>>7906646
Well there was debate on whether or not to use "Pagan knowledge" in the early Christian church but the conclusion was that is was fine. The reasoning being; "just like god has given the jews the ability of acquiring money he had given the Ancient Greeks knowledge in the natural sciences and we should lean on that"

Further explanation being that they believed god was rational and that through rational science one could get closer to understanding god, seeing how the ancients already wrote a bunch on ratio and natural philosophy they were rather eager to use it.


A rather funny is that the idea of purgatory was invented in the middle ages too, not as a money making scheme but as a way of making good seem less shitty. Traditionally everyone born before christ and therefore not being Christian was expected to go straight to hell but then people realized that is a dick move especially towards those ancient greeks so they came up with purgatory.

>>7906653
Islam was seen as a heresy of the Christian faith by many, not as a separate religion. They always refer to Muhammed as the false prophet because the god they worshiped was more or less the same. As far as I know the first latin translation of the Quran was written down around 1000 AD when there was a large movement among clerics to translate as much of the Arabic works as possible in Spain and Sciciliy, that is how Aristotle was more or less revived in Western Europe.

>>7906640
Arabs

>>7906930
what a silly question this is

>>7906950
>>7906902

>>7906956
How was hellenic culture lost to europeans in the first place?

File: 1458281199706.jpg (148KB, 768x1024px) Image search: [Google]

148KB, 768x1024px

>>7906950

File: 1458385385266.jpg (3MB, 4080x5436px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 4080x5436px

>>7906956

>>7906621
How does any Renaissance author, ever?

>>7906665
Hilaire Belloc also argued that Islam was one of the 5 great heresies.

>>7910336
>Chaucer
>Renaissance

>>7906768
not the first ever, but maybe the first major Christian English author?

>>7910368
>not reading the thread

File: 12764631_1157851740891896_7455757123096676731_o.jpg (769KB, 1552x1772px) Image search: [Google]

769KB, 1552x1772px

>>7910378
>weighted dips

>>7909970
Well first of Hellenic =/= ancient Greece and all in all the Hellenic states didn't produce nearly as much work as ancient or classical Greece did. That said Europe as in Europe proper was never really that Hellenized anyways. The Romans took the bits of those cultures they liked and introduced them to Europe. German invaders kept the bits of that Roman-Hellenic culture they liked and discarded the rest. The byzantines had their own culture but that is an entirely different matter.

During the few centuries after the fall of the West Roman empire literacy dropped, warfare became more or less endemic etc. The Catholic church was one of the few Roman institutions that survived and tried their best to keep the written word alive by copying works of the ancients, however since they could not read and write greek they only had original latin works or works that were translated into latin before shit hit the fan. All in all it's quite a miracle. I believe only four ancient texts survive to the modern day, the rest is all the work of Muslim and Christian writers copying their work by hand. Europe didn't really stabilize until Charlemagne and even then civil society was not yet primed for a large scale intellectual revival we would see in the 12th century. Even Charlemagne himself only learned to read at a later age and he never quite got the hang of writing himself, when he had a stone byzantine inspired chapel built we could say that was the first advanced stone building built north of the Alps since the Romans had left. Other stone buildings were built before that by the "barbarians" but they pale in comparison to that chapel.

File: 1457856675874.jpg (294KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

294KB, 1280x960px

>>7910390
huh, any good books on medieval Christian history? you sound like you know your stuff

>>7910390
This is of course not to say the barbarians were complete idiots, they just didn't have time, knowhow and perhaps interest in stoic living or rhetoric. Just like the Macedonian goat herd living in the mountains not far from Athens. The Warrior aristocracy had a pretty good idea of how to life their life, die glorious in battle and Wodan/Odin will take you to this neat place until the twilight of the gods hits us. In practical matters quite a few advancements were made, lapstrake ships, caravel planking, navigation, pattern welding and jewelry. About 60 miles from my place they recovered a fibula made from gold which had 300 Indian gems (red garnets I believe) in it. The style is local but the materials came from afar, quite afar in those days. Yet we haven't the faintest idea who it belonged too because no one bothered to write it down. The Books of Kells can be said to be a spiritual item yet it is dyed or painted with pigments from Afghanistan, it almost seems as if these people cared more about the material than the spiritual aspect of the said book.

>>7910404
It's a broad topic, entire volumes have been written about the monastery of Cluny or the pre-schism Church. Try to narrow it down too says Early, High or Late medieval and then go with a certain aspect of it. Most of my knowledge is just from essays, papers, general medieval history and canonical law (quite interesting if you have a knack for it).

File: 1458227057233.jpg (854KB, 1280x1912px) Image search: [Google]

854KB, 1280x1912px

>>7910436
for you, some lewd piccys

File: 1458240232743.jpg (214KB, 1000x670px) Image search: [Google]

214KB, 1000x670px

>>7910436

>>7906633
When last I checked Chaucer was not a renaissance writer, especially considering he lived in England in the 14th century

>>7910449
fuck you man, i have been fapfree for 8 days now you confront me with this bs. fuck shes hot

File: 1458262551157.jpg (113KB, 500x747px) Image search: [Google]

113KB, 500x747px

>>7910436
>>7910458
it gets saucier friend
for all your troubles

File: 1458257310265.jpg (556KB, 1280x1912px) Image search: [Google]

556KB, 1280x1912px

>>7910436
>>7910446
>>7910449
>>7910458
>>7910462

File: 1458262489768.jpg (243KB, 1280x857px) Image search: [Google]

243KB, 1280x857px

>>7910465
>>7910458

File: 1458262427923.jpg (195KB, 1280x857px) Image search: [Google]

195KB, 1280x857px

>>7910470
>>7910436
>>7910458

>>7910474
ohman, my streak of abstinence is in danger. MODS. THIS IS A SFW BOARD. Someone save me from this lust...

>>7910476
so just to reiterate, Christian authors of old used pagan motifs and whatnot because it was the source material available to the Christian intelligentsia at the time, right?

still not clear on their personal justification for what is essentially idolatry...

>>7910476
>2016
>Being plebeian in such that anything that is not a pastoral manifestation of material creation and maturation such as flower pollination sexually arouses you

Wew lad

I can think of another piece of literature that involved pagan elements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegast

Written in 12th century I believe, it involved an elf or humans using pagan magic to help charlemagne.

Another famous example is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson

A Christian statesman who wrote down pretty much everything we know of Norse Mythology, like literally everything we know of this Pagan religion was written down by a Christian dude in Iceland and another one in Denmark.

>>7910486
thanks senpai

File: 1457921464124.jpg (174KB, 2048x1229px) Image search: [Google]

174KB, 2048x1229px

>>7910476
some art to cleanse your palate

>>7910490
I think the question was how do they, as Christians make peace with using or engaging in pagan stuff

File: image.jpg (75KB, 502x604px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 502x604px

>>7910476

>>7910505
>>7910496
>>7910486

this is why i love this board. God bless you all.

>>7910484
European Christianity is pretty Pagan anyways, Christmas trees, yule logs etc etc.

I am not sure how the usage of Ancient motifs would be considered idolatry, being a pagan was not really endorsed, using pagan stories or motifs was fine. It's not like they banned the old testament either, the new testament contained to little matter to turn it into a religion so they borrowed a lot from the old testament.

>>7910500
How do Christians, Muslims, Buddhists make peace with using violence? Famous Christian stories are those of the Martyrs, burned by Nero, thrown into a lion pit or shot to pieces with arrows. None of those stories would work or make sense without pagans being involved would they? Paganism was part of the history they knew and part of the great societies that came before them, without paganism other religions don't make sense really.

File: znMLtg7.jpg (170KB, 949x720px) Image search: [Google]

170KB, 949x720px

>>7910508
and God bless you, anon

>>7910515
but take the Knight's Tale for example.
Palomon and Arcite, discussion of pagan gods and their virtues...told by a Christian knight to a Christian audience!

>>7910515
>How do Christians, Muslims, Buddhists make peace with using violence?

I think you missed the point.
If I was a middle ages muslim writing a story for muslims, I wouldn't then feature muslim characters that relay a tale of Christian characters and a Christian god.
do you get it?

>>7910539
>Isa Ibn Maryam (Arabic: عيسى بن مريم, translit. ʿĪsā ibn Maryām; English
>Jesus, son of Mary), or Jesus in the New Testament, is considered to be a prophet and messenger of God and al-Masih (the Messiah) in Islam[1][2]:30 who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, al-Injīl (the Gospel).[3] The belief that Jesus is a prophet is required in Islam. This is reflected in the fact that he is clearly a significant figure in the Quran, appearing in 93 ayaat (or verses) with various titles attached, with Moses appearing 136 times and Abraham 69 times

And I can drum up an article which examines like 6 or 6 Muslim sources on the Crusaders, mostly the but end of a joke, sometimes admired and occasionally praised for their values.

Moral tales often involve immoral characters, more often than not outsiders who show at least one or two good qualities. Think good Samaritan

>>7910535
Yeah? so?

Medieval plays and comedies are full of bestiality, cuckholding and contain tropes involving fat impious (alcoholic) friars, deadbeat dads and nuns who run their convent like a whorehouse. Chaucer is not a biblical epic meant to inspire people to be pious, it's more or less vernacular literature.

I remember in an introduction to an old translation of Ovid's metamorphoses, the justification given was that the stories were good, and that since the Christian religion is true and paganism is false, there's no risk to one's soul by reading the stories of the ancient pagans. Any Christian man can see with his own eyes that the pagan gods are immoral and unreal, so it's fine to read about them.

>>7910569
good point

>>7910592
huh, might have to look into that, thanks
the attitude changed pretty quick though around about towards the end of the middle ages

>>7910816
What attitude? What changed?

>>7906874
Just as we have no way of knowing "how Chaucer reconciled[...]" What we can get from the retraction is better than the rest of the stuff people are throwing around in this thread. Unless you want to propose he didn't write it, in which case I would expect textual evidence that it isn't in his style or something. The idea of everything for the sake of Christ, resembles his ending of Troilus and Criseyde, so its not completely out of nowhere.

>>7906621
A lot of different arguments can be given. In catholic school we learned that God revealed Himself to His creation multiple times all across the world, but most fully in Jesus Christ. Anything that is good is from God, anything evil is a turning away from God. Therefore any aspects of pagan religions that seem good (the use of pagan myths in storytelling for example) can be seen as God imperfectly acting through His creation.

>>7906950
>A rather funny is that the idea of purgatory was invented in the middle ages too, not as a money making scheme but as a way of making good seem less shitty. Traditionally everyone born before christ and therefore not being Christian was expected to go straight to hell but then people realized that is a dick move especially towards those ancient greeks so they came up with purgatory.

Limbo =/= purgatory

File: dante-alighieri.jpg (27KB, 245x321px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 245x321px

>>7911050
>mfw people confuse the first circle for the seven terraces

>>7910484
>still not clear on their personal justification for what is essentially idolatry...

Are Marvel comics about Thor idolatry?

>>7906621
He wasn't a protestant

>>7910985
how the Catholic church was quick to purge infidels

>>7911066
what a stupid comment.

>>7911087
That wasn't a part of the early catholic church. That happened more in the 1500s with the rise of protestants, although it had its own roots in the various shit going down during the Avignon papacy.

>>7910456
Chaucer was a one man Renaissance. He visited Florence and Milan in 1372, he read, translated and copied Boccaccio, Petrarch and Dante.

The Canterbury Tales is basically an English version of Boccaccio's Decameron. Chaucer probably met Boccaccio in Florence.

So it's perverse to analyse Chaucer's attitude to paganism as if he just made it up on his own in Pre-renaissance Northern Europe.

>>7906950
>Traditionally everyone born before christ and therefore not being Christian was expected to go straight to hell but then people realized that is a dick move especially towards those ancient greeks so they came up with purgatory.
Uh, no. Haven't you heard of the Harrowing of Hell ? Do you even study Christianity ?

>>7910535
The Knight's tale is copied from the Italian humanist/ renaissance writer Boccaccio. As are the clerk's and the monk's tales.

see >>7911280

>>7911090
Please, turn on your brain before responding.
Do you hold that any form of mention or literary invention that uses entities taken from myths is automatically a way to recognize the sanctity of such an entity?
Note that this is not even a rethorical question, several modern-day Christian denominations would say yes to that question.

>>7911299
>the sanctity of such an entity?
dude that's two tities in a row

>>7911087
Didn't really happen until after the middle ages. The most extreme measures enacted by the pope involved (as it was felt necessary) to ban marriages between Christians and jews and muslims, not that it stopped anyone.

Pretty much all other military actions had a political side to it rather than a religious side, conversion wasn't even a goal of the crusades.

>>7911050
>>7911057
>>7911290
My bad.

>>7911293
[citation needed]
No doubt that chaucer was influenced by boccaccio

>>7912507
Just search "knight's tale boccaccio" or "knight's tale teseida"
Here's a nice ppt summary
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic824629.files/The%20Knight%E2%80%99s%20Tale.pptx

Random articles from google:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/459300
https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/osu1133975505/inline

>>7906627
lots of christian traditions, symbols, artifacts, etc. are lifted from ancient pagan religions