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/Jesus/ general

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Jesus General

Here's a discussion question for all Christposters:

Do Roman Catholics think the Pope is identical with God? I ask because, as a Catholic, I've never heard a Catholic acknowledge that this is the case, but I've heard many people who aren't Catholic claim that Catholics not only worship the Pope but think that the Pope is actually God. Acting as the Vicar of Christ and being identified with God don't seem quite the same; in fact, the 'Vicar' in the title even serves to illustrate a distance between the Pope and God.
So, Catholics, do we worship the Pope, or is everyone else just terribly misinformed?
Protestants and Orthodox are welcome
>>
Misinformed. There is a specific situation where what the Pope says would be considered infallible, if I remember correctly, but that's only when all the Christians of the world consider him their leader. I think.
>>
This is the stupidest question. Is a senator from Vermont the actual state of Vermont, just because he represents it?

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to indicate that the Pope is divine, only that he has been chosen by his peers to head the faith.
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read that as "Do Roman Catholics think Pepe is identical with God?"
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>>7198424
You don't remember the context right but you remember the principle right.
>>7198425
Someone in my Greek Civilization class today asked if early Greek God-Kings were 'like the Pope with Catholics' and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't wrong to think the guy sounded like a moron. It's amazing how frequently people will use that exact phrase to answer questions about monarchy in large lecture halls.
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>>7198429
You should cut down on your meme intake
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>>7199421
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>>7198424
He is infallible when speaking ex catedra on teaching and dogmas.
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pentecostal here (assemblies of god), grew up as one. honestly I believe in God, but I'm pretty unimpressed with my church and my attendance has become pretty sporadic. there seem to be a lot of catholics here on /lit/, should I actually check out my local parish, or is it just a meme?
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>>7199842
Catholic priests literally have the power to turn bread and wine into God. Protestant churches are counterfeits m8.
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>>7198405
I went to catholic school, they are taught that the Popes are direct descendants of St Paul.

It doesn't claim to be by genealogy, but some sort of spiritual descendant.
>>
>free agency is 100% bound to causality
>therefor hard free will doesn't exist
>how can God judge our actions then
Someone explain I never understood
God rolls the dices and then punishes us if we are unlucky?
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>>7199885
St. Peter you idiot.
>>7199901
Causality does not affect our will to do good and evil, at least not 100%. We as beings do not exists only as physical entities therefor we have a soul and free will.
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>>7199901
>>therefor hard free will doesn't exist
Any Church which has thought about this usually denies this by saying the grace of God allows one to defy hard causality and save himself.
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>>7199885
Apostolic succession is basically just handing a role down.
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>>7199901
Also the judgement is perfect so factors like background will be taken into account, the bible even says so, everyone is judged according to his talents.
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>>7199947
>Causality does not affect our will to do good and evil, at least not 100%
?
Yes it does
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>>7199956
That means no one will be judged for anything, as there is 0% hard free will in a deterministic universe.
Boy, Christianity is stupid.
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>>7199958
I disagree. Determinism is bullshit.
>>7199968
Our minds are not deterministic in a sense where we are automatons, thus free will exists.
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>>7199958
While I don't disagree I will say that we don't know enough about he human mind to rule out non-causal influence.
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>>7199970
>I disagree. Determinism is bullshit.
What the fuck, there is literally no basis for denying the truth that is determinism?
Holy shit what are you doing?

>Our minds are not deterministic in a sense where we are automatons, thus free will exists.
Uh no, everything is enslaved by causality, even the fabric of our minds.

>>7199972
But we know enough about the universe to make that claim, since everything is bound to causality so are our minds.
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>>7199974
We have no idea how our minds work. So there is plenty of basis. And even in a deterministic universe I don't see why our consciousness couldn't arise and influence how electrons and such move.
But whatever. Pointlessness discussion between two slaves of causality. At least I'm not at fault for being stupid, I'm after all a puppet. Can't do anything about it.
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>>7199979
>we currently have no way to determine if there is a teacup orbiting proxima centarui, so there is plenty of basis for this to be the case

the movement of electrons is adequately explained by the equations of electrodynamics
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>>7199979
This makes no sense, there are no metaphysics resolving around our minds that much we know.
It is bound to causality.
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>>7199992
In objects that aren't conscious.
>>7199998
On the contrary, I think there is metaphysics in our minds.
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>>7200007
There's no reason to believe in magic my friend :)
When I jam a knife in your skull I can change your mind, that would imply I can change metaphysics with physical objects :)
Please stop :)
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>>7200008
10/10 post
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>>7199974
Determinists are disgusting tbh
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>>7200008
You would detach my mind from my body and I would be dead.
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>>7198405
People are always going to try and tell folks about their own beliefs: the more they dislike you the better the chances they'll assume you're stupid and/or evil and make up some absurd shit, which they then ascribe as your worldview.

This is just something ignorant people do: they misrepresent or misuderstand the beliefs and causes of theirenemies as a form of comparative validation of their own beliefs.
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>>7199424
The best part of the comic is the laughing Sephiroth. That and Pilate's response to the Israelite Merchant Man.
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>>7200928
>Sephiroth
I was posting in a Kaballah thread earlier so I had that word on my mind. I obviously meant Seraphim.
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Literally autism: The post.
People are just saying that Catholics have a really high regard for the Pope, whereas most other Christians couldn't tell you who the leader/leaders of their sect are. Fuck.
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Papal infallibility has only been invoked like twice

Consecrated men act in persona christi in many of their services as they were given this power by Christ, "what you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, what you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven" and so on. This is how priests can give absolution in confession, as they are vessels of Christ (who is present and works through them, not as if they get magical powers or whatever)

Pope is elected Vicar of Christ, but he's not selected for any inherent supernatural properties. He is gifted apostolic succession by right of the manner in which the Church body selected him under guidance of the Holy Spirit and so on.
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>>7198405
Catholics don't understand anything about Christianity. They just think they do.

They're just the evolution of the Roman Empire from Emperor, called Pontifex Maximus, to "pope", also called Pontifex Maximus.

They are run like the pagan Roman Empire, with an absolute hierarchy, and they have no place in the Kingdom of God. What they have here on earth, is theirs. And then the judgment.

The reason the Catholics here, and elsewhere, do not understand that the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon is due to their being indoctrinated to not read the bible, not try to make sense out of the bible, and depend 100% on catholic "expert" instructions.

They do not know that the Roman Catholic Church is the most evil institution on the planet because they judge it by their friendly little neighborhood church that they attend and unwittingly participate in all sorts of pagan blasphemies and abominations.

As to their pope, he's their emperor, not their God. They think they worship God.

They're wrong.
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>>7199955

Yes, it's how monarchies on earth are ruled.

It has nothing to do with Christianity, at all.
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>>7201037

This would be typical papist pagan nonsense, again having nothing to do with the bible but for meaningless misinterpretations supporting their own power structure.
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>>7200933
They're evangelists, dude.
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>>7201050
Cliche as always, and blatantly false.

>their being indoctrinated to not read the bible, not try to make sense out of the bible, and depend 100% on catholic "expert" instructions

Let's pick this apart.

>their being indoctrinated to not read the bible

This is the worst myth because I don't think it has any factual basis in the modern age. I'm in RCIA and they literally keep telling us to read scriptures and emphasize how important it is. I think the issue is that there are a lot of cradle, cafeteria Catholics who don't think reading the Bible is important because they think mass is the be-all end-all of faith.

In the ages when laity didn't have their own Bibles people were largely illiterate, which was why part of the function of the parish priest from the beginning of the Church was to read parts of the Bible I assume. Prosecuting people who owned or promoted Tyndale Bibles was not "anti-Bible" because the Catholics already had English language Bibles like the Dhouay-Rheims, so the issue wasn't the vernacular but the fact that it was genuinely heretical.

>depend 100% on catholic "expert" instructions

Not quite, but there's an important point to be made here. If you think that there is no room for instruction or correction when it comes to interpretation, you're basically saying that there is NO objective truth in the Bible and that Christianity is mythology. It's basically relativism, because it denies that there are any truths that can be gleaned from Scripture - and that contradicting these truths would be an error and falsehood.
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>>7201082

It's sad that you're going to hell, when you want to go to heaven.

Your faith is in your church.

Your faith is misplaced.

You, and 95% of all papists, are going to hell along with the Whore of Babylon, led by your False Prophet, Petrus Romanus.

So sad (for you).
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>>7201197
Big guy
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>>7201197
Did you just call one of the Apostles a false prophet?
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It's just Protestants hating on Catholics, a residual effect of the Reformation.

Orthodox don't do this because they understand he's just the Head Priest/Abbott the same way they have head priests and the same way many other faiths and religions do.
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>>7201222
Why don't Protestants hate Orthodox like they hate Catholics? Why do they single out the Pope and not the Patriarchate? The actual answer is that Protestantism is a reaction to Catholicism and can only exist by defining itself against the Roman Church, but how do Protestants explain it?
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>>7201211
Petrus "Cicero" Romanus is NOT my apostle. He is Roman heretic and probbaly pagan as well.
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>>7201197
Is this real or satire? Do you really believe some people are going to Heaven and some are going to Hell based on conduct and interpretations in this life?
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>>7201241
Nice meme.

In case you're not joking he's literally in the Gospels and Christ confers the power of the keys upon him.
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>>7201243
What is there but faith and works?
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>>7201237
The Orthodox Church is for slavs. Who gives a shit about slavs?
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>>7201278
But is there an answer to my question? Why don't evangelicals care about evangelizing Eurasia and Eastern Europe?
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>>7201237
>The actual answer is that Protestantism is a reaction to Catholicism and can only exist by defining itself against the Roman Church

Not even, Sola Scriptura pisses off the East Orthodox just as much as the Romans.
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>>7201269
I'm joking, but I'm also not the anon you were arguing with earlier.
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>>7201287
Yeah but do Protestants hate Orthodoxy like they hate Catholicism? Luther never preached in Russia.
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>>7201237
I never thought about Protestantism in that context. You bring up a very good point, personally I like the zizekian analysis of Protestantism where the essence of what the Christian faith should be is found in Calvinism.

Where predestination in this finite universe is dogma, so priority is placed on duty in this life. This relegates the Christian mythos and Christ Hero character as the island of authenticity for the Christian Community, but not as a centrifugal force like in conservative Islam and many other Protestant churches.
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>>7201278
Greeks are slavs?
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>>7201304
Essentially, in the modern era they're Mediterranean Slavs or Olive Niggers.
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>>7201210
Tough guy too.

>>7201211
Pope Francis, aka Petrus Romanus, the last pope. Read The Malachy Prophecies.

>>7201222
Murdering people by the millions has that effect on people. Murdering people by the millions for satan even moreso.

>>7201237
Because the Orthodox did not kill christians and Jews by the millions, only by the hundreds.

>>7201243
This is the real life...
People who are alive will go to heaven; people who were born spiritually dead and never became alive will go to hell, where all the dead things go.

It's not about interpretation; it's about transformation.

>>7201281
Murder, by the millions.

>>7201269
Peter used the keys twice, to open heaven to both Jews and Gentiles, at Pentecost and at Cornelius' house.

There is no more use for the keys.

Nor did anyone "inherit" them.

By such lies, the Vatican enriched itself trading in the souls of men. It is pure evil.
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>>7201296
>Yeah but do Protestants hate Orthodoxy like they hate Catholicism?

The reason there is so much strife between the Reformed and Roman traditions is because they compete for influence over Northern Europe. The Orthodox never had much of a presence in the Northern Europe (or in USA/Canada) so there is less occasion for fighting.
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>>7201222
Pope is also a head priest. And it isn't even that the Orthodox don't recognise his authority, it is that Rome considers him first and Constantinopole first amongst equals.
>>7201296
Protestantism never took hold there, I think the only slavs who took Luther up were Chezch who are now almost entiery atheist.
But I don't understand also why they have such a strong dislike for Catholics and not Orthodox as the tradition and teachings are essentially the same, basically unchanged since 1054. You won't have Orthodox and Catholics disagreeing on doctrine as opposed to protestants which shows you how heretical they are.
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>>7201304
Orthodoxy is literally the Greek version of Christianity so if all Orthodox are Slavs then yes.
All Orthodox are Slavs.
Therefore yes.
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>>7201317
What the fuck are you on about? Are you saying Protestants have never committed atrocities in the name of God?
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>>7201322
On Nebuchadnezzar's statue, there were two legs of iron representing Rome; the West and the East branch.

That both evil legs agree with each other is hardly something to boast about. They will both be demolished by the Rock that is Christ Jesus.

As to the other nonsense, there is no "Protestantism". That's a Catholic term.

There were Christians before there were Roman Catholics, and there will be Christians outside of Rome forever.

If anyone defines themselves in relationship to Roman Catholics, it's Orthodox "christians".
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>>7201322
>But I don't understand also why they have such a strong dislike for Catholics and not Orthodox as the tradition and teachings are essentially the same, basically unchanged since 1054.
That's what I mean. Are there any Protestant texts explaining this? It's bothered me for a while.
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>>7201328

The systematic slaughter of millions of Christians and Jews by Rome over the past 1700 years apparently has escaped your notice.

You're not what I would call "diligent" or "well informed".
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>>7201340

They're called "history books". Read one that wasn't written by a Jesuit some time.
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>>7201336
Catholics don't deny that Protestants or Orthodox are Christians. Only Protestants go so far as to deny that people who worship Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit and accept the Bible as the Word of God are Christians.
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>>7201317
PURE
U I
R D
E E
IDEOLOGY
L
O
G
Y
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>>7201317
>Murdering people by the millions has that effect on people. Murdering people by the millions for satan even moreso.
What millions?
>Because the Orthodox did not kill christians and Jews by the millions, only by the hundreds.
Not sure if they ever did officially. It isn't a church that has had its history falsified like the RCC.
>Pope Francis, aka Petrus Romanus, the last pope. Read The Malachy Prophecies.
We shall see in about 10 years if they were true. I have no reason to assume they are true as opposed to a number of other prophecies many of which are already partially here.
>People who are alive will go to heaven; people who were born spiritually dead and never became alive will go to hell, where all the dead things go.
People can't be born spiritually dead and are not predestend to go to haven. For what pourpouse did Christ die for as it is written all people if some are born dead?
>Murder, by the millions.
Which murder?
>Peter used the keys twice, to open heaven to both Jews and Gentiles, at Pentecost and at Cornelius' house.

There is no more use for the keys.

Nor did anyone "inherit" them.

For sola scriptura I'm not sure where you are pulling this shit out.
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>>7201342
You're equating 'Rome' and the Catholic Church, which is fallacious. The Catholic Church did what was necessary for the preservation of Christendom through the Middle Ages and antiquity. It is justified in its treatment of heretics.
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>>7201349
Could you recommend me one?
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>>7201328
"From the birth of Popery in 606 to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of popery."

-- "History of Romanism," pp. 541, 542. New York: 1871.

The Catholic crusade against the Albigenses in Southern France (from 1209-1229), under Popes Innocent III., Honorius III. and Gregory IX., was one of the bloodiest tragedies in human history. … The number of Albigenses that perished in the twenty years’ war is estimated at from one to two millions.

-- Cushing B. Hassell, History of the Church of God, Chapter XIV.

Catholics, murdering people who want to worship Jesus Christ, and read the bible, on their own.
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Is Christianity a religion for carpenters and workmen?

He kind of reminds me of Mozi. Mozi was a carpenter and technician who created many fantastic inventions and preached universal love, and went one step further, embracing production as a societal good.
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>>7201350
Catholics are not in any position to say anything whatsoever about the Kingdom of God.

They have their own thing going on.

Becoming a Christian has never been a corporate event, and joining a club will not get you into heaven.

Most Catholics, I'd say 95% +, are going to hell.
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>>7201340
Protestantism really makes no sense theologically, it's essentially "Catholics do this, therefor we must not, without question" so expecting coherency to Orthodox church is not to be expected.
>>7201362
The jesuits wrote all the history books :)
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>>7201364
>2 quotes from books by Protestant demagogues
I'm gonna need more than that. I'm also going to need you to make a sound argument explaining why the Inquisition can't be justified.
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>>7201356
>>7201358
>>7201362
See
>>7201364

and

"That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. The memorials, indeed, of many of her persecutions are now so scanty, that it is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no power of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings." -- "History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe," Vol. II, p. 32. London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910.

and

The following quotation is from The Glorious Reformation by S. S. SCHMUCKER, D. D., Discourse in Commemoration of the Glorious Reformation of the Sixteenth Century; delivered before the Evangelical Lutheran Synod of West Pennsylvania, by the Rev. S. S. Schmucker, D.D., Professor of Theology in the Theological Seminary at Gettysburg. Published by Gould and Newman. 1838.

Need I speak to you of the thirty years’ war in Germany, which was mainly instigated by the Jesuits, in order to deprive the Protestants of the right of free religious worship, secured to them by the treaty of Augsburg? Or of the Irish rebellion, of the inhuman butchery of about fifteen millions of Indians in South America, Mexico and Cuba, by the Spanish papists? In short, it is calculated by authentic historians, that papal Rome has shed the blood of sixty-eight millions of the human race in order to establish her unfounded claims to religious dominion (citing Dr. Brownlee’s “Popery an enemy to civil liberty”, p. 105).

(Who was in charge of your education? Jesuits?)
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>>7201364
This reads like that redditor who quoted himself on the evil of religion.
>>
What do christfriends think of nietzsches picture of Jesus as idiot in The Antichrist?
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>>7201371
Yeah, you dropped the 95% already ITT. Too bad you've got no valid claims to tradition with which you could back up these baseless claims.
>>7201373
Those damn Jesuits and their education!
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>>7201369
>Is Christianity a religion for carpenters and workmen?

For all who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, raised from the dead after paying the sin debt of humanity, yes.

Most of Jesus' followers are working people, working poor, and poor people.
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>>7201382
Unfortunantly no, I was not in luck to be educated by a Jesuit. I wish I was tho, they are great priests and know a lot. My godfather is one tho, but I never got close with him.
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>>7201364

The majority of the population was never heretic. The French lords slaughtered the Provencals because they spoke a different language. They used religious reasons to mask a cultural genocide against the Languedoc, which was the most splendid region in all of Europe.
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>>7201373

That's because you are taking Catholics seriously.

There were Christians from 32 AD to 325 AD, when the Roman Catholic church was perverted into a form of empire.

There have always been Christians who would not bend the knee to Rome, and who were not murdered
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>>7201398
So after all it wasn't the RCC, but the French lords?
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>>7201388
Exactly.

Catholics rely on their traditions to save them, as well as their rites and rituals, idolatry and paganism, vampirism and cannibalism..

Hence, most of them are going to hell.
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>>7201399
>There were Christians from 32 AD to 325 AD, when the Roman Catholic church was perverted into a form of empire.
If you had read any of the Church fathers you'd know it was essentially the same as Catholicism in terms of doctrine and interpretation. Reading is good for you. Try it sometime. Church fathers are quality authors.
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>>7201382
Look, pal. I'm a Catholic studying g history and philosophy at a secular university dominated by Marxists, American liberals, and properly Americanized Jews. You've posted a couple arguments from secondary-hell, probably not even tertiary-sources that were written by individuals with a painfully obvious religious and ideological bias. If you can recommend me a couple more recent and properly scholarly works about the Inquisition, the Crusades, or Papist totalitarianism in the middle ages, I'll gladly check them out. If you're going to continue posting pseudoscholarship I'm just going to stop replying to you.
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>>7201398

"Heretics", when speaking of the people whom the Catholics are slaughtering en masse, were Christians.
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>>7201408

I have read the proto-Catholics, and find them as evil and disgusting as the Catholics.

You should try reading some Christian history some time. Get that popery taste out of your mouth.
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>>7201409

Do your own friggin' research. That's some fine inquisitive mind you have there. "Give me evidence that comports to my previously held suppositions!"
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>>7201382

>deprive the Protestants of the right of free religious worship, secured to them by the treaty of Augsburg

You mean the rights of petty nobility to force a new religion on a mostly Catholic population? Martin "Kill the Peasants" Luther was no humanitarian.
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>>7201385
It's deeply flawed. It only makes sense from a pagan perspective, from Pilate's perspective. The whole "good to the point of stupidity" thing only occurs to a person that doesn't believe in an eternal Judge who gives everyone their due. None of the Jews, almost exclusively Christ's audience, thought he was a "holy fool". They thought he was "a man who spoke with authority", the prophet Elijah, or a blasphemer. They took him seriously as he had an air of gravitas in everything he did and said. The only person in the Gospel who may have saw him as an innocnet fool is Pilate.
>>
If most of these posts didn't sound like genuine protestant opinions I'd think this was a master troll thread.
>>7201409
I'm obvously not him, but you may find this useful, he makes videos, but always cites both primary sources and scholars so you can find what you are looking for in there.
https://www.youtube.com/user/RealCrusadeHistory/videos
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>>7201409

Meh, I pity you. Here's another.

The figure of 68 million appeared in Schmucker’s talk in 1838, in Brownlee’s book of 1836, and also in a book “Plea for the West” by Lyman Beecher (Cincinnati, Truman and Smith, 1835), pp. 130-131:

And let me ask again, whether the Catholic religion, in its union with the state, has proved itself so unambitious, meek, and unaspiring so feeble, and easy to be entreated, as to justify-a proud, contempt of its avowed purpose and systematic movements to secure an ascendancy in this nation? It is accidental that in alliance with despotic governments, it has swayed a sceptre of iron, for ten centuries over nearly one-third of; the population of, the globe, and by a death of violence is estimated to have swept from 'the' earth about sixty-eight millions of its inhabitants, and holds now in darkness and bondage nearly half the civilized world?
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>>7201413
But all the Protestant figures worked from the philosophy established by men like Augustine, Tertullian, Iranaeus etc.

A lot of the church fathers were people who were intimately interwoven with the Apostles and authors of the New Testament.

Where is this pure, unadulterated Christianity from which you draw your faith?
>>
Total retard incoming!

How do I into Catholicism? Start with the Catechism is obvious. Anything else?

Also, what's the different between Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism? How do I into OC?

Raised as American Protestant (lel) and not digging it at all yet still intrigued by Christianity of varying stripes. I want some religious/Bible discussion that can get down with metaphysics and epistemology.
>>
>>7201420
Luther was an evil, virulently antisemitic Catholic friar.

Why nobody seems to remember that is ponderous.

No "On the Jews and Their Lies", no "Mein Kampf", no holocaust.
>>
>>7201413
>You should try reading some Christian history some time
I do read it, that's why I find your comments so funny. And they aren't proto catholics, they are the fathers of Orthodox and Catholic church. There is nothing proto about them.
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>>7201426

B.I.B.L.E.

H.O.L.Y. S.P.I.R.I.T.

If you put a man between you and God, you do not know God, and God does not know you.
>>
>>7201401

From what I've read, the French Crown never had effective control of the Languedoc until the Albigensian crusade. Also the Aragonese, who were Catholics, fought on the side of the Provencals, as fellow Catalans against a veritable barbarian invasion.

>The conflict largely ended with the Treaty of Paris of 1229, in which the integration of the Occitan territory in the French crown was agreed upon.
>>
>>7201433
"Proto-" means before.

They lived before the establishment of the Whore of Babylon, Mystery Babylon, and are repugnant men for the most part.

That the Whore used their work to spread her lies is just one of her many abominations.
>>
>>7201438
But anon, the Bible was written by men. Why do you consider yourself superior to the saints who martyred themselves in the period of Christ's life and the early Church, which you must do if you think that the Holy Spirit would bestow correct interpretation of scripture upon you and not upon them - despite the fact that they literally gave up their whole living and sometimes their lives to Christ.
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>>7201430
Everybody remembers that, it is mentioned every fucking time Luther is mentioned that he wrote an anti-semitic tract. That makes him pretty much the same as every other catholic from that era except he put some effort in and wrote about it.
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>>7201439
When Laguedoc was invaded by these monsters, one hundred thousand Albigensees fell in one day! See Bruys vol. iii. 139.

-- page 346

There perished under pope Julian 200,000 Christians: and by the French massacre, on a moderate calculation, in 3 months, 100,000. Of the Waldenses there perished 150,000; of the Albigenses, 150,000. There perished by the Jesuits in 30 years only 900,000. The Duke of Alva destroyed by the common hangman alone, 36,000 persons; the amount murdered by him is set down by Grotius at 100,000! There perished by the fire, and tortures of the Inquisition in Spain, Italy, and France 150,000. … In the Irish massacres there perished 150,000 Protestants!
To sum up the whole, the Roman Catholic church has caused the ruin, and destruction of a million and a half of Moors in Spain; nearly two millions of Jews South America in Europe. In Mexico, and , including the islands of Cuba and St. Domingo, fifteen millions of Indians, in 40 years, fell victims to popery. And in Europe, and the East Indies, and in America, 50 millions of Protestants, at least, have been murdered by it!
Thus the church of Rome stands before the world, “the woman in scarlet, on the scarlet colored Beast.” A church claiming to be Christian, drenched in the blood of sixty-eight millions, and five hundred thousand human beings!

-- W. C. Brownlee, Letters in the Roman Catholic controversy, 1834, pp. 347-348.
>>
I don't understand these liberal-minded, free-thinking, anti-monarchist, anti-authoritarian Protestants who think that the Pope is a tyrant and everyone should be able to interpret the Bible as he pleases. Don't you know that God is a monarch who has never run the universe democratically? Also, don't you think if God would take the trouble to become flesh and die for our sakes he would set up a lasting priesthood and teaching authority to guarantee his doctrine was taught uncorrupted? It baffles me to no end that Protestants think God would throw us the Bible, say "good luck in figuring this out", and call it a day, especially when most Christians couldn't even read or afford a Bible. In the OT God didn't have Moses write down the laws and let everyone in Israel have his own interpretation of the laws. He set up a priesthood with a HIGH PRIEST to regulate things. What makes you think he would do things differently in the NT?
>>
>>7201429
Helpful comment incoming!
>Total retard incoming!
Hope not.
>How do I into Catholicism? Start with the Catechism is obvious. Anything else?

Here is a very good pasta some anon made. Anon thank you, you made my job easier.
>Catholicism. Where to start?

Required Reading:
>The Bible (Douy-Rheims)
>Catechism of the Catholic Church
>Parts of the Summa Theologica (Specifically Part 1 and Part 3).

Apologetics:
>Handbook of Catholic Apologetics-Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli
>The Everlasting Man-Chesterton
>Orthodoxy-Chesterton

Theology:
>Summa Theologica-St. Thomas Aquinas
>City of God-Augustine
>The Works of St. Anselm
>On the Incarnation-St. Athanasius
>Defense Against the Arians-St. Athanasius
>The Consolation of Philosophy-Boethius
>Pensees-Pascal

Biography/Conversion works:
>The Confessions-St. Augustine
>Apologia Pro Vita Sua-John Henry Newman
>The Seven Storey Mountain-Thomas Merton

Historical/Sociological works:
>The Formation of Christendom-Christopher Dawson
>The Dividing of Christendom-Christopher Dawson
>History of the Catholic Church-James Hitchcock

Literature:
>The Divine Comedy-Dante Alighieri
>The Works of Flannery O'Connor-Flannery O'Connor
>The Power and the Glory-Graham Greene
>Diary of a Country Priest-Georges Bernanos
>The Works of G.K. Chesterton
>The Moviegoer-Walker Percy
>Lancelot-Walker Percy
>The Lord of the Rings-J.R.R. Tolkien
>The Book of the New Sun-Gene Wolfe
>Brideshead Revisited-Evelyn Waugh
>The Canterbury Tales-Chaucer

Mysticism:
>The Dark Night of the Soul-St. John of the Cross
>The Interior Castle-St. Teresa of Avila
>Revelations of Divine Love-Julian of Norwich
>New Seeds of Contemplation-Thomas Merton
>No Man is an Island-Thomas Merton


>Also, what's the different between Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism? How do I into OC?

It is essentially in the view on the authority of Rome. Catholics consider the pope to be the "ruler" while the Orthodox see him as a first amongst equals. The rite which the Ortho have can be found in both churches. There is some friction on if the holy spirit comes from father and son (catholic) or is a distinct person from the start (orthodox). Teachings are essentially the same. Approach is different in a sense where Ortho have much much more mysticism while Cath have a stronger philosophical tradition with Aquinas, Scot, Descartes, Leibnitz and such.

>Raised as American Protestant (lel) and not digging it at all yet still intrigued by Christianity of varying stripes. I want some religious/Bible discussion that can get down with metaphysics and epistemology.
Hope the list I gave you will help.
>>
>>7201447
But fam, the bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, Who told God's prophets the future, and brought everything past to their remembrance.

I do not consider myself superior to any saint; I am a saint, by the grace of God.

I do not judge among the saints; that is for the Lord, and I trust His decisions are just, holy and righteous, as He is just, holy and righteous.

All Catholics, who are not themselves born again Christians, will face judgement, and then be cast into the Lake of Fire.

There is no man made religion (like Catholicism or Orthodoxy) that can prevent that.

Only being born again saves a man; only being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Which is not done by eating crackers, drinking juice, bathing, or oiling one's person after a bath.
>>
>>7201449
>pretty much the same as every other catholic

Yes, vile. Only apparently the evil he witnessed was too much for him to stomach, so he bitched about it.

Not much was changed. The Vatican is still evil.
>>
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>>7201462
>calling Christ's body a "cracker"

I don't even know if I believe and this viscerally upsets me
>>
>>7201469
Rest assured, Jesus' body is not a cracker.

Pagans just think it is.
>>
>>7201443
>They lived before the establishment of the Whore of Babylon, Mystery Babylon, and are repugnant men for the most part.
But they didn't, the church as we know it today was very well established during that time.
>>7201439
The times were very violent and most of my knowledge of history is related to law, my study, so I see everything through a legal lense, and the RCC was very important in establishing most of the ideas for modern legal systems in europe, it was the most "modern" and "humane" organisation of the time as. So yeah, just wanted to say that.
>>
>>7201461
Fucking baller. Thanks, anon! I've read a handful of the works listed (I am on /lit/ after all) but this should be a good way to learn more about all of this.

Do you know why that Bible translation is the recommended one? I have the NRSV lying around and it has all the Apocrypha in it so I thought I'd be good to go.
>>
>>7201472
But some of your churches literally have crakers.
>>
>>7201473
Mystery Babylon goes back to Babylon.

In Peter's day, Peter called Rome "Babylon".

In this book called the bible, in an epistle written by Peter..

Maybe read it.
>>
>>7201462
If you aren't Catholic you aren't Christian. You don't get to decide that you're Christian because you feel comforted while praying. The Mormon girl that tried to convert me to her sect said God was her best friend and she felt comforted by him every time she prayed, but her religion is not Christian.
>>
>>7201479
Most all of them do.

Christians know that it doesn't magically turn into Jesus in our stomachs.

Catholics literally think it does.

Communion is not salvation; it is more like an OG pouring out a 40 for a fallen friend.
>>
>>7201050
>I only read meme books, non-fiction and history are anathema to me
>I am a protestant fag that gets my information on catholics from youtube comments
>>
>>7201476
I'm not American so actually no, my knowledge of your translations is poor. I think you should be able to find it on Catholic answers or just ask your priest. There should also be a few book shops that sell Catholic literature so that may also be a good call.
Also be sure to read a bit from each section to build a picture of the midset in all important aspects, poetic, intellectual and spiritual.
>>
>>7201489
Correct. The mormon girl isn't a Christian, you are not a Christian, and nobody whose highest and best identity is a Catholic is a Christian.

Glad I could help clear that up for you.
>>
>>7201485
>In Peter's day, Peter called Rome "Babylon".
It was also called that in the 16th century, what's your point?
Also, yeah, sorry, haven't read it because the jesuits said I shouldn't.
>>
>>7201053
Its far more interesting than that. Papal Primacy as the Episcopal See of St. Peter is based on the Donation of Constantine, later found to be fraudulent. The Petrine connection is however Biblical.
>>
Protestants have no right to read the Bible. In the hands of Protestants the Bible is the devil's tool.
>>
>>7201489
>you aren't Catholic you aren't Christian
Not that idiot, obviously, but who is and isn't Christian is defined by the Nicean creed so it isn't just us, it's also Orthodox and some protestant churches/parishes.
>>
>>7201508
I've read that the pope had primacy even before that and was even recognised around the time of the schism.
>>
>>7201382
30 years war was instigated and continued by the kings of bavaria (Cath) and saxony(Prot), the prince of the paltinate (Prot), the council of Bohemia (Prot), The Holy Roman Emperor (Cath), The king of Sweden (prot) and the King of France (Cat).

You are also forgetting to mention what the Anglos did to the American Indians (Prot) and that the Church was virulently against Spanish exploitation of the natives (Las Casas et al)
>>
>>7201503
The point is that your Protestant sect, just like the Mormon sect, relies on subjective experience as a rule of faith. You felt spiritually comforted one day and declared yourself "born again", but your subjective experience is not an absolute rule if faith. You have no right to go around preaching to others based on your subjective experience. God did not anoint you. God did not give you the authority to preach his word. You are arrogating to yourself the authority of a prophet without God's permission, and that makes you a false prophet.
>>
>>7201495
>Christians know that it doesn't magically turn into Jesus in our stomachs.
Sure, it turns before that, during transubstantiation.
>Catholics literally think it does.
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
>>
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At least the inquisition had rules of evidence. Good ol King James, who personally edited the King James edition that protestants (and mormons oddly) love to wave around, was so in to witch hunting that he edited passages of the Bible to support it.

He once sentenced to death a twelve year old girl on the testimony of an 8 year old!

>James took so great a role in the interrogations of the accused witches and in their trials that when a Scottish jury acquitted one of the accused, Barbara Napier, due to lack of evidence, James used his power as monarch to void their verdict, and ordered her execution. He even had the audacity to order that the jury members themselves be put on trial for acquitting a witch!

http://www.llewellyn.com/journal/article/2186

The man's life story reads like something straight out of Gurochan.
>>
>>7201510

>Yes, only let the Whore of Babylon tell you what is in the bible, and what it means! And let her tell you that it isn't really holy! And let her tell you that her opinion is the same as the bible!

>And worship her!

No Christian reads the bible on his own.
>>
>>7201505

Babylon then, Babylon now.

If you don't understand that Babylon is antithetical to the Kingdom of God, you will learn it to your horror later.
>>
>>7201533
>At least the inquisition had rules of evidence
It was actually the first to introduce the inquisitorial system (hecnce the name) which meant that the inquisitor had to search for hard evidence before conviction.
>>
>>7201524
Negative, the Primates/Bishops of Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, Rome, were all pretty much equal. Popes were vassals of the Byzantine emperor first, than the HRE around the time of the schism, until the investiture controversy to the babylonian captivity, at which point ecumenical council trumped popes.

Super popes like today only came around in the 1800s after Napoleon.
>>
>>7201419
I'm asking him to back up his claims with scholarship. God forbid someone asks for good sources.
>>7201423
Appreciated.
>>7201425
The Catholic Church has no union with the state and regards it as incapable of acting virtuously. Protestantism elevates the state itself to godhood.
>>
>>7201536
True, the jesuits know if we do and burn us at the stake if we do.
>>
>>7201508

The Petrine connection is an intentional lie.

The foundation, the petra, that the Church of Jesus Christ is built upon is not Petros. It's petra.

Two completely different words with two completely different meanings.

The petra is what Peter had uttered under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit two seconds earlier: "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

That's the foundation of the church, not some follower of His.
>>
>>7201514
The Orthodox are closer to us in belief and worship but even calling them Christian is dubious because they divide the body of Christ. You can call them that as an ecumenical outreach if you want, but you run the risk of failing to impress upon them just how horrible the crimes of heresy and schism are.
>>
>>7201546
Do you know any good books on the history of the church?
>>
>>7201527
The Catholic Church slaughtered the Indians in South America by the tens of millions.

Those Indians don't count?

#saindianlivesmatter
>>
>>7201532
>What are metaphors?
>>
>>7201548
The pope literally placed the crowns on the Kings of Europe.

Are you the "historian" poster?

kek
>>
>>7201462
It was written by fallible humans who were divinely inspired. Enjoy worshipping a book.
>>
>>7201549
I suppose that used to be a secondary meaning; that the primary eluded you isn't surprising.
>>
>>7201552
>The Orthodox are closer to us in belief and worship
I'm quite sure it is essentially the same.
>but even calling them Christian is dubious because they divide the body of Christ
I don't think orthodox stopped being the body of christ, he did not abandon them. The holy spirit is a guide to them too. He is the good shepard after all.
True, the division is bad, but saying they are huge heretics and not chirstians is unfounded imo.
>>
>>7201555
Keepers of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy is a popular history that is actually pretty funny in a dry monty python type of way
>>7201556
Literally not true. See "Conquest of the Incas" by Hemming. The church wanted to maintain the populations without exploitation so that they could proselytize and control the population like in Europe. The Archbishop of Lima's Royal Title was Protector of the Naturals literally. The Indians were dying off so fast that they couldnt convert them fast enough. Again read Bartholomew de las casas.
>>
>>7201565

You keep emphasizing that the prophets and men of God, and the apostles and disciples, were fallible men, and keep glossing over the fact that the Holy Spirit is neither.

Gee, I wonder why.

>>7201560
kek

Everything in the bible that isn't transubstantiation is a metaphor, per catechism.
>>
>>7201540
So you don't think redemption is possible?
>>
There is literally nothing wrong with burning obstinate heretics at the stake.

Who wouldn't chop off an infected arm to rescue the whole body?
Who wouldn't chop off heretics to spare the rest of Christendom from the disease of heresy which kills the soul?
>>
>>7201574
The authors of the Bible were flawed human beings inspired by a perfect divine being. If you can't make the distinction between the act of writing and the inspiration behind what's being written then that's just your loss.
>>
>>7201572
To sum up the whole, the Roman Catholic church has caused the ruin, and destruction of a million and a half of Moors in Spain; nearly two millions of Jews South America in Europe. In Mexico, and , including the islands of Cuba and St. Domingo, fifteen millions of Indians, in 40 years, fell victims to popery. And in Europe, and the East Indies, and in America, 50 millions of Protestants, at least, have been murdered by it!
Thus the church of Rome stands before the world, “the woman in scarlet, on the scarlet colored Beast.” A church claiming to be Christian, drenched in the blood of sixty-eight millions, and five hundred thousand human beings!

-- W. C. Brownlee, Letters in the Roman Catholic controversy, 1834, pp. 347-348.

You lie, and your lies reek to high heaven. And in lying, of course, you do the work of your spiritual father, the father of lies, satan.
>>
>>7201556

Strangely enough, there are millions of SA natives today, but scant few of the natives up north. What happened I wonder?
>>
>>7201563
So what? Those were Christian kings. They were subordinates of the Vicar of Christ and the clergy, as it should be. The world should be kept in holy chains.
>>
>>7201575
For Babylon? Whose end is written in the bible?

Of course not.

Babylon was always an alternative to the things of God. If you did not want to do things God's way, you went the way of Babylon.

You know, science, and reason, and technology, co-existing, and multiculturalism, and all that good stuff.
>>
>>7201580

>The authors of the Bible were flawed human beings

This part seems fairly uncontroversial

>inspired by a perfect divine being.

This part not so much. You're going to have to demonstrate and explain this bit
>>
>>7201556
How can a small force do that?
Unless influenza is also a Catholic. Wouldn't suprise me if you said it is.
>>7201560
Something Jesus used often in parables to show us the kingdom of god.
>>7201567
It's the jesuit conditioning man, sorry.
>Everything in the bible that isn't transubstantiation is a metaphor, per catechism.
It's late and due to protestants I've lost the ability to understant sarcasm.
>>
>>7201578

Daily Reminder that when Catholics say "heretics", they mean "Christians" or "Anyone Against Rome".

Note their murderous tendency to justify their own slaughter of the innocents by claiming to be surgeons.
>>
>>7201584
Why are you complaining about Catholics killing people? Christ said that he would bring the sword and that it would r necessary to bring his enemies before him and slaughter them. Christ isn't a pacifist. He's the same God that commanded the Israelites to slaughter the heathen.
>>
>>7201580
Have you ever been inspired to write anything? No? And you're on /lit/?

The fallible men who wrote under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote when under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

It's a collaboration that is better than any writer and his muse ever had.

And yes, it is quite reliable, and has been, for 3500 years.
>>
>>7201595
>You know, science, and reason, and technology, co-existing, and multiculturalism, and all that good stuff.
The stuff Protestants like to take credit for? Multiculturalism and coexistence don't seem like particularly Catholic concepts.
>>
>>7201602
Genuine question. Have you been baiting this whole time or am I living The Trial?
>>
>>7201585
Yes, move those goalposts, papist. We have plenty Injun here.

>>7201591
So the pope was over the kings, and caused them to fornicate with him. Spiritually. And also homosexually.

>>7201600
Who us? We're just a little group of Catholics, nothing to see here.

kek

Then the slaughter begins.
>>
Peter wasn't divine, but he serves as the leader of the faithful in the place of Christ, his lineage serves that same purpose
>>
>>7201599
Why should I have to explain to a Christian that the Holy Spirit, as part of the Holy Trinity, is a divine being? Why do you find the idea that the Spirit inspired the writers of Scirpture? Hard to accept?
>>
>>7201614
They aren't, we don't like multiculturalism in the modern sense. Coexistance as per Aquinas is possible with asimilation of course.
>>
>>7201605
Jesus killing people.

Catholics killing Christians.

The same.

>My sides.

>>7201614
Yes, your pope isn't reaching out to the entire world, to bring everyone into the fold of Rome. Not at all. He's very divisive.

>>7201615
In a universe of infinite possibilities, are both not possible?
>>
>>7201617
But did the Pope crown the Queens too?
>>
>>7201618
Peter died a long time ago.

Maybe put yourself under God, Who is alive.
>>
>>7201617
>move those goalposts
It's clear prof that there was no slaugheter. It isn't a goalpost.
>>
>>7201607
Being inspired by the Spirit doesn't change the fact that they were fallible humans. The Bible cannot possibly be taken completely literally, even if it is entirely true.
>>
>>7201617
The Pope has always been above all kings.
>homosexually
Blasphemer.
>>
>>7201627
I care?

I care what any pope did, ever? The Borgia popes, who literally had orgies in the Vatican? The popes put on the throne for making the highest bid? The pope murdered by a jealous husband who caught him in flagrante delicto? The pope who held black masses for satan? The popes who extorted trillions of dollars out of grieving people?
>>
>>7201623
>existance as per Aquinas is possible with asimilation of course.
Naturally.
>>7201625
If you had any proper conception of good works you wouldn't object to missionary activity. The Pope isn't the Communist Satanist you think he is.
>>
>>7201633
Killing them all with good intentions isn't murder?

Got it.

Keep thinking Rome.

Gonna get real hot.

>>7201634
It does. For the time the Holy Spirit was working through them, they were as God.
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>>7201644
>mfw Protestants forget that Catholics acknowledge the existence of Antipopes
>>
>>7201641

See?

Blasphemy can only be against God, but here's a papist who thinks telling the truth about gay priests, bishops, cardinals and popes is "blasphemy".

Is there any need to wonder if they worship the pope?
>>
>>7201650
>they were as God
Yes, insofar as the Spirit was in them, but even Christ had a moment of doubt.
>>
>>7201646
I know exactly what a good work is.

And it has nothing to do with missionary work.

I know because someone asked Jesus, and Jesus answered his question.

And the papist gaining a convert makes that convert twice the citizen of hell than he was before.
>>
>>7201653
Hard to ignore two popes giving contradictory orders ex cathedra.

All popes are anathema.

I never said the papists were dumb. Just evil.
>>
>>7201644
>The Borgia popes, who literally had orgies in the Vatican?
Old fart knew how to throw a party all right.
>>
>>7201650
>I calim that there was no mass murder
>He interprets it as I said that good intentions excuse murder
Ok
>It does
Doesn't as the gospels have a slightly wrong calculation of time as to when Jesus was born and differ between each other in the account.
>>
>>7201656
The Church is God's presence on Earth, since it consists of people who have been filled with the Spirit, and the Pope acts as Christ's representative on Earth. Blasphemy is not only against God but against any holy thing. Your inability to distinguish between things in themselves and their representations is your problem, not mine.
>>
>>7201660
I hate to disagree with the esteemed theologian Mick Jagger, but no, no He did not. He did not doubt that going forward would cause Him agony and death.

He knew that for sure.
>>
>>7201667
>Hard to ignore two popes giving contradictory orders ex cathedra.
Nice account on when it happened.
>I never said the papists were dumb
You called me dumb multiple times in the thread, son.
>>
>>7201663
Any action which grows the Kingdom of God is a good work.
>>7201667
Ah, I see.
>>
>>7201677
eli eli lama azavtani
>>
>>7201677
He knew that, but He doubted that it would mean anything. Therein lies the beauty of his sacrifice. If he
>>
>>7201670
Nope. Luke mentions a census under Quirinius that was making people scratch their head, because Quirinius was governor @ 7 AD, and the census Jesus was born in had to be before Herod the Great died in 4 BC.

Recent digs show two censuses. One @ 6 BC and one @ 7 AD.

And attribute both to Quirinius.
>>
>>7201677
He knew that, but He doubted that it would mean anything. Therein lies much of the beauty of his sacrifice.
>>
>>7201671
Nope.

Christians are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, Who is also here.

The Roman church is evil.

I can't stress that enough. Literally worshiping satan evil.

>>7201679
And I guess I have to do it again, as I am not your son.
>>
>>7201680
Is that what Jesus said? Jesus, Who is not now on a cross? Who is not now dead? Who is God?

Is that what Jesus said?
>>
>>7201694
So son, the holy spirit magically left the church around 325 and then magically came back with Luther?
>>
>>7201632
God isn't tangible nor does he communicate in a way easily understood by the masses, a shepherd needs to attend to his flock
>>
>>7201694
Pretty sure we say the Our Father and explicitly worship Jesus at literally every Mass ever but OK.
>>
>>7201685
Kind of.

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani!"

Again, no doubt. Jesus knew He had been forsaken. For the first time in eternity, the Trinity was severed as Jesus became sin, the Holy Spirit fled, and the Father turned His back.

Bad times.
>>
>>7201699
Yes, that's what he said, look it up before Jesuits brainwash you.
>>
>>7201686

Did your pope tell you that? kek

>>7201692

So blasphemous you had to say it twice?

>>7201700
Oh my, no. Luther is in hell. He was a catholic friar. What makes you think he was saved? His hatred of the Jews?

>>7201703
God is very much tangible; He dwells in unapproachable light. Think about that for a moment. Then start fearing the Lord, and begin to be wise.

>>7201707

Isaiah 29
Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.”

Be afraid.

Be very afraid.

Your lip service means nothing.
>>
>>7201708
The word why usually means doubt.
Like when I ask why are you so uneducated and sprouting vapid ideology, I express doubt. And the gospels are as far as the extreme attention given to the exact choice of the perfect word the best ever written.
>>
>>7201711
That's odd, the Holy Spirit in the Word of God has a different answer than your pope.

John 6
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Whom to believe, whom to believe. Jesus? Or the pope?

Quite the conundrum.
>>
>mfw i see all this protestant b8
a lousy little friar indeed
>>
>>7201735
Doubt nothing from a Pentecostal, they are absolutely nuts.
>>
>>7201724
None of those words mean doubt.

Eloi means Father
lama means "Why"
sabacthani means "You have left/abandoned/forsaken me"

No doubt.
>>
>>7201723
Luther was a Catholic friar until he stopped being one and literary founded most of the nonsense you have been sprouting. He and Calvin and alike.
>>7201735
I'm actually convinced this is genuine. Which denominations are this crazy? I'm not an American and the few protestants I've met, a few of which actually yesterday, did not seem this batshit.
>>
>>7201723
Maybr my lip service means nothing, but I believe in the death and Resurrection. You may not believe in my belief, but only God's judgment matters in the end; even Pope's admit this, despite what you've been told.
>>
>>7201740
Why is a word that asks and expresses doubt. It's literally used for that, expressing doubt and questioning.
>>
>>7201747
For your convenience.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism
>>
>>7201747
I don't even bother keeping track of them. American Lutherans seem alright for the most part, but it's the Baptists and Pentecostals that are really problematic.
>>
>>7201740
>why
>not doubt
it seems you switch between explicit and implicit understandings of scripture

quite odd indeed
>>
>>7201740
Well, if He thought the Father had forsaken Him, it follows that he doubted the Father was with him.
>>
>>7201747
One problem sport.

I'm not a Lutheran. Or a Calvinist.

Kind of knocks your generic dismissal into a cocked hat, no?
>>
>>7201748
You know what the popes believe in their hearts?

Are you God?

Of course Jesus rose from the dead; its the single best recorded event in ancient history, making Jesus the most famous person on earth, written of in the best selling book of all time. Even the devil knows Jesus rose from the dead.

But is he YOUR Lord and savior.
>>
>>7201772
You're still a batshit heretic. That's why we like to lump all Protestants together. You're all equally wrong. Some of you are just crazier than others.
>>
>>7201751

No clue what you're on about, but there's some medications for autism that might help you out.

>>7201758
Why have you forsaken me?

It's not a question from doubt.

It's an exclamation from agony.
>>
>>7201772
But you adhere to protestant teachings of personal interpretation of the bible and the three sols? Or are you beliefluid?
>>
>>7201778
If one believes then, by your own logic, one is saved. And all Popes may not have it in their hearts, but the Church's actual official position is that God decides everyone's uktimate fate. You think that, too, obviously.
>>
>>7201770

Is this some popery that I haven't encountered before, where you all are just dead set on Jesus doubting something?

It's really strange.

There's nothing in the text of doubt at all, just abandonment. And there was no doubt He was forsaken, and that He knew He was forsaken, and that He trusted the Father with His Spirit, dismissed His Spirit, and died.

Without doubt.

With Faith.
>>
>>7201780
Should just kill us all, huh papist! Death to all heretics!

DEUS VULT!

>Go to hell. Go directly to hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
>>
>>7201790

I don't know what you mean by "protestant", as it's an artificial papist word.

If you can express yourself without using words invented by the most evil cult of all time, I'd be happy to answer you.

>>7201791
What is it to be saved, and how is this accomplished?

What does the bible say?
>>
>>7201800
>go to hell
sounds just like Islam tbh
not surprised, luther was just a fat mohammed
>>
>>7201805
Good point. About 95% of them are hellbound too.

Very similar, Catholics and shiia Muslims. Which is why, of course, they are joining forces right now.
>>
>>7201804
>the most evil cult of all time
You mean Islam?
>>
>>7201795
Is the idea that a fully human (this is one of His natures) being experienced existential doubt at some point really that objectionable? Do you want to deny that Christ had the full depth of subjectivity that all human beings have?
>>
>>7201804
I don't know what you mean by papist or Christian as I was not divinely inspired and had the door of haven opened before me to know who is worthy of the kingdom of heaven.
>>
>>7201813
Yes, since Christ is god-incarnate and not a human
>>
>>7201800
Probably not, really. It's too late to stop your heresy through the calculated application of righteous objective violence.
>>
>>7201818
HE ACTUALLY JUST FUCKING SAID THAT CHRIST WAS NOT HUMAN
HOLY SHIT THE FUCKING PROTESTANTISM IS OFF THE CHARTS
>>
>>7201812
Hmmm, that's a tough one. Who's more evil? Satan plus Mohammad, or Satan plus Constantine?

Wow, Anon, that's a real you-pick-em.
>>
>>7201818
Christ is fully human and fully Divine, not simply God taking on flesh. This is monophysitism, which by almost any standard (even non-Catholics ones) is heresy.
>>
>>7201813
Sure, if that's your evidence, and that's your reasoning.

It's unsound.

I'll take Matthew Mark Luke and John over Mick, all day, every day.
>>
>>7201804
To be saved is to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to enter into an interpersonal relationship with the One True God, culminating in the taking up into heaven of the soul after death.
>>
>>7201836
You can choose to ignore His words on the Cross. That's your choice. I know that God has been a subject.
>>
>>7201831
>fully human and fully Divine
That's a contradiction, being human means carrying the original sin which separates us from God, God is a trinity, being part of the father and the holy spirit all at once means that you aren't human.
>>
>>7201818
>Christ is not human
so he didnt die for our salvation, dumbo?

next you are going to tell me The Son isnt The Son and The Father isnt The Father

>In the name of The Blah, The Word, and The Holy Spirit
>>
>>7201816
It's not difficult.

A papist is a Roman Catholic. They place themselves under the Pope. Hence, papacy, popery, papist. It's all about the hierarchy; it's all about the emperor. Er, pope.

A Christian is a new creation in Christ Jesus who has confessed out loud that Jesus is Lord, and believes in his heart God raised Him from the dead.

Huge difference. Like heaven and hell difference.

When you ask a Christian to say "Jesus is Lord!" out loud, and ask if they know He rose from the dead, they have no problem doing so.

The papist, however, cannot do so, and has to obfuscate, flee, etc. It's supernatural knowledge that their church cannot impute to them.
>>
Jesus didn't write a book, and he certainly didn't have much to do with a 500 year power squabble between assholes who wield him as a weapon.
>>
>>7201839
It's actually not taking of a soul. It's called the resurrection of the body. The depth of your lack of understanding of history, faith, the bible, theology as well as obsession with the option that you and 20 other people alone were shown the light is kinda astonishing.
>>
>>7201844
This is pure madness. You don't acknowledge Christ's dual nature? That's the entire point of His sacrifice!
>>
>>7201828
Actually, nobody said that but the person you just responded to.

Jesus was fully human as though He were not God, and as fully God as though He were not human.

He is the Son of Man, and the Son of God, uniquely.

I just don't see Jesus doubting anything.
>>
>>7198405
Everyone else is both wrong and heretical don't trust them they have fallen for Satan's lies and only want to lead you into damnation like the Arch heretics Martin Luther, John Calvin, and that Whore Queen Elizabeth. they have turned from the true light of christ and the seat of Peter in favor of blasphemous treachery and we should should seek to shrive them with lash and fire to save their souls from the pit of damnation!
>>
>>7201839
Correct.

And how does one accomplish that?

>>7201842
How about I choose to understand them properly?

How about that?
>>
>>7201844
You are not even a Christian. I just assumed you were a batshit heretic, but you aren't a Christian at all.
>>
At least Arius made sense, the rest of you are performing mental gymnastics on a grand level.
>>
>>7201856
He did, however, scribe the 10 Commandments into stone.

How are you doing on keeping those perfectly?

Good?
>>
>>7201851
Aye mate, damn these Cat-licks to hell, and believe the Word of God! (Sponsored by the Book of Mormon)
>>
>>7201857
>>7201857
I dunno, man, the soul has to go somewhere before the creation of the New Jerusalem. It's not like my mind stops existing between my bodily death and resurrection; if there's no mind begind my body, I'm just a zombie upon Resurrection. That can't be the case.
>>
>>7201857
He's dead right.

You're dead wrong.

Worry about that. You owe it to yourself.

>>7201868
I see the drunken Catholics have shown up.
>>
>>7201869
One accomplishes that by believing in Christ and growing the Kingdom of God on Earth.
>>7201869
You misunderstand them, though. They're both a prayer and a cry of desperation and destitution.
>>
>>7201844

Allow me to illuminate your thoughts.

Jesus was not born with original sin, as original sin is passed through the father, through the sperm.

Jesus was not born of Jospesh's sperm, and the Father has no sin in Him to give Jesus.

So Jesus was born without sin, and was alive with the Holy Spirit in Him, for all of eternity but for three hours on the cross.

The three worst hours in the universe.
>>
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who /arius/ here?
>>
>>7201885
The Irish?
>>
>>7201885
That's how you sound, but use whore of Babylon instead. Can't you see his obvious satire?
>>7201881
So he is either a Pentecostal, a Baptist or a Mormon? Let's try to deduce it.
>>
>>7201859
>That's the entire point of His sacrifice!

What's the point of His sacrifice?

>>7201878
He made sense because he was thinking in the flesh, and of the spirit of the world, where you currently reside.

To me, Arius makes zero sense, and has no reason whatsoever to base his opinion but for lies from satan.

When lies from satan make sense to you, run.
>>
>>7201894
But Jesus was born a man, doesn't that negate the whole "exempt from original sin" thing?
>>
>>7201878
Isn't religion mainly about mental gymnastics although?
>>
>>7201907
Seemingly, Theology is mental gymnastics and logical inconsistency incarnate
>>
My brothers! Join the Jehovah's Witnesses and learn the Truth!
>>
>>7201904
The point of His sacrifice is that the Man-God died to redeem the human race of original sin and create the possibility of salvation. It would be pointless and absolutely absurd for God to come down to Earth as God and be killed by humans.
>>
>>7201882
Read the story Jesus told of the certain rich man and the beggar Lazarus.

Your soul is not some wispy unincorporated ghost. It's you, just in an energy state, but one that retains its form and senses.

If you died right now, as a Christian, you would be with the Lord in a resurrection body like the one He rose in.

If you are raptured, you will get a resurrection body when translated.

If you are not a christian, and die believing in the Tribulation, you will not have a body at first, but then one will be given you.

Don't worry.

Jesus knows you need a body, a robe, and He will provide a spotless one.

As Paul said, to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord. And He's not going to have you running around naked.
>>
>>7201920
crypto-muslim please go
>>
>>7201920
Stop knocking on my door so early in the morning and i'll think about it.
>>
>>7201889
No, and no.

Shame. So close.

Read, and do, what Paul tells you to do to be saved in Romans 10:9-10.

Do it.

Don't think you can, think you did, maybe wonder, surely you did, are generally confused, just do it.
>>
>>7201902
At the risk of sounding redundant.

kek
>>
>>7201928
I'm sorry to disturb you friend. But we must knock!

Acts 5:42

And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
>>
>>7201922
The rapture is not even a biblical concept, it exists only in the us.
>>
>>7201933
Preaching does not need to be ineffective.
>>
Daily reminder there is no such thing as a soul and you're not worshiping God, you're desperately distracting yourself from the abject truth about your temporary existence.
>>
>>7201945
but there is, even Aristotle admitted it
>>
>>7201922
>It's you, just in an energy state, but one that retains its form and senses.
The soul is the essence of a being's life force. A body without a soul can't be alive, by definition. How can a body without a soul possibly be a resurrected body?
>>
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>>7201937
>revelations isn't biblical
>>
>>7201906
He was born the Son of God.

So, no sin. Nothing of sin from His father.

keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

And, he was not directly descended from Joseph, who was directly descended from Jehoiakim, whose line was cursed by God to never be kings,

Jesus was not born of a sin nature through His Father, and never sinned, thus keeping the Law, and qualifying to redeem us as our Kinsman Redeemer, our sacrificial Lamb.

Had Jesus ever sinned, He would have stayed dead, and we would be without hope.
>>
>>7201953
Where's your evidence that there is a soul, and if there is, where's the evidence that it exists after the body and the brain have died?
>>
>>7201933
Surely your Lord has given you the right to rest in the morning right?
Do it in the afternoons, i just wanna sleep.
>>
>>7201956
The idea of the rapture came into existence in the 19th century if I'm not mistaken.
Unless I'm mistranslating the word. My bad then.
>>
>>7201921

Absurd?

You just detailed how it happened, although your grasp on it is rather shaky.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for your sins, not just your "original" sin. All of your sins.

And all of mine.

And all of mankind's.
>>
>>7201462
The only ones who eat literal crackers and drink literal juice are the proddies.
>>
>>7201937

Paul taught it to the Thessalonians, and the Corinthians, and it is foreshadowed by Enoch, Lot and Daniel.

Don't worry.

The things of God have nothing to do with you, and you don't have to believe them.
>>
>>7201968
His sacrifice wouldn't have been meaningful, that is, it would not have had an effect, if He hadn't been fully human and fully divine.
>>
>>7201968
The why do we need faith or to act in accordance with God's laws if Jesus cured ALL OF OUR SINS FOREVER?
>>
>>7201970
But protestantism is a Catholic Jesuit fabrication :^)
>>
>>7201974
The problem with you is not just your retarded arguments, but your ego inflated annoying attitude.
>>
>>7201963
thiniking as such doesnt depend on the body for it's operation. The abstract, universal nature of thought cannot depend on the concrete and particular
>>
>>7201980
Jesus is a Roman fabrication
>>
>>7201954
You are born into your physical body.

Then you die.

Then you get a resurrected body; either one to shame and destruction fit for hellfire, or one for glory and honor to live with God forever.

In the story, Jesus tells us that the dead rich man feels heat, and wants water. That they talk, and reason, and know what's happening around them.

They might not have physical bodies yet, but they're still people.
>>
>>7201986
>thiniking as such doesnt depend on the body for it's operation
It literally does, inanimate objects aren't capable of abstract thought, only humans with brains as far as we know are able to think, which is based on the brain, which is concrete.
>>
>>7201965
Your lie is correct, but the information is false.

The rapture, the harpazo, is in many places directly, and in many places foreshadowed.

It's going to happen, and soon. The second the New Jerusalem is pronounced finished by the Father, we sky now.
>>
>>7201632
Eternal life, anon.
>>
>>7201975
Correct. If He were not human, He would not be our kin, and could not redeem us.

And if He were not God, He would not be sinless, and His sacrifice would have been impotent, as ours would be if we tried to die for the sins of the world.

Let's not make His death be in vain, yes?

Let's get saved?
>>
>>7202000
>begging the question
>>
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>>7202002
KEK
>>
>>7202001
Oh so I was right about the rapture not being biblical? Ok.
>>
>>7201976
Good question.

The forgiveness of sins is not salvation; it is the forgiveness of sins.

The forgiveness of sins was necessary to take care of in order that God's justice, righteousness and holiness is satisfied.

Thus satisfied (Jesus rose from the dead), God in His mercy and grace can now offer the free gift of salvation to all who believe.

You don't have a sin problem.

You're dead. Your sins were forgiven you before you were born, but you were stillborn, and have done nothing to regain the lost Spirit of Life that Adam and Eve lost in the Garden of Eden.

You need God's Holy Spirit in you, to resurrect you and cause you to become a living being. A new creation.
>>
>>7201983
I wouldn't worry about it. We'll be separated for eternity, and you'll never get the chance to thank me for causing you to believe.

Because you don't want to.

Because reasons.

I'm sure they're very good reasons.
>>
>>7202002
You can worship Peter if you choose, and join the Peter Club. Peter died, and stayed dead.

It meets in hell for all eternity.

I suggest you choose Jesus over Peter.

Is that so hard to see?
>>
>>7202011
No, you were right that the lie about the rapture started in the 19th century.

You were right about being deceived.

Congrats!

Remind me again, did Paul write in the first century, or in the 19th?

1 Thessalonians 4
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
>>
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>mfw the Holy Spirit went away until anon opened his kjv bible in the 21st century
>mfw he copyrights the Holy Spirit
>>
>>7202026
Jesus ascended 40 days after the resurrection, and the Holy Spirit descended 50 days after the resurrection, on the Day of Pentecost.

He's been here ever since, transforming the willing into new creations in Christ Jesus.
>>
>>7202026
Your new voice sucks btw
>>
>>7201994
Yes--they're souls. The essence of a person is a soul.
>>
>>7202005
Yknow that movie Let's Go to Prison?
Let's Go to God.
>>
>>7202039

Very much this.
>>
>>7202021
The Apostles are all saved, with the possible exception of Judas.
>>
>>7201054
It's a 4-headed angel sustained by the presence of God, dude
>>
>>7202045
more like apostates LOL
>>
>>7201944
Oh but it is so effective. We now have ~7.86 million active members preaching!
>>
>>7201964
I completely understand. It's just the vast majority of people are home around morning hours. We try not to knock too early however.
>>
>>7201317
>Because the Orthodox did not kill christians and Jews by the millions, only by the hundreds.
It'd like you've never heard of the Raskolniks. Orthos killed each other based on how many fingers they used for making the cross.
>>
>>7201336
>As to the other nonsense, there is no "Protestantism". That's a Catholic term.
>There were Christians before there were Roman Catholics, and there will be Christians outside of Rome forever.
The Christians who didn't define themselves as opposing the Church are called Coptics or Syriacs or Orientals. Protestants are called such because their entire theology consists of "the opposite of what the Romans believe."
>>
>>7201364
>"From the birth of Popery in 606 to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of popery."
>-- "History of Romanism," pp. 541, 542. New York: 1871.
I looked in the book and this number is not sourced to any named historian. It could be made up for all I know. I don't really doubt that this number is approximately true (if, as in the footnote, the author uses every overzealous local lord rather than counting deaths supported by the Church itself) but if this is the state of Protestant scholarship I can't really take anything you say seriously;
>>
>>7201364
>cathars
Whoa, didn't know we considered Manichean duotheists, who thought the entire OT was a work of Satan, Christians.
>>
>>7202193

Although to be honest the OT might as well be the work of Satan.
>>
>>7201552
>even calling them Christian is dubious because they divide the body of Christ
That was the Catholics with the fraudulent Donation of Constantine.
>>
>>7201607
2600. You can tell by the anti-Egyptian propaganda.
>>
>>7202045
Catholic dogma states that Judas is the only person we know to be in Hell.
>>
>>7202258
I've seen posters on this board cite Bendict XVI saying that only God can know Judas' fate. Can you back up your claim? I'm not completely committed to either position, I'll go with whatever the Church says, but I want to know what the Church says first.
>>
>>7202268
It's something I heard somewhere so I'd go with the alleged Benedict XVI.
>>
>>7202258

But since according to Christian theology, Jesus had to die on the cross to atone for our sins, it can be reasonably observed that the people who set him up and killed him (Judas, Jews, Romans), by their very murderous actions, by killing the Lamb of God, did their very part to make possible the salvation of humanity through the Christ, and since according to Christianity this salvation is a good thing, it makes absolutely no (theo)logical, emotional, metaphysical, hell any sense to begrudge the persons who through their direct actions expedited this possibility of salvation. The reasonable conclusion (if the above claim about the Catholic view of Judas is accurate) is to reject Catholic dogma as stupid, followed immediately by Christianity, and Abrahamism in general.

Someone's going to do the old fedora chestnut, and that's fine, but I don't even have to claim that "deep down inside", you know I'm right about this - you know it on a straightforward SURFACE level, to begin with. All I or anyone else has to do, is to walk it back in a straightforward fashion, and call bullshit, and that's sufficient, and everyone knows it, but for Muh Culture and Muh Tradition and Muh Reason Is Not The End-All Be-All Of Being and the usual embarrassing apologetics.

Go on, give us a *tip*, dismiss the substance of the argument, it's fine, we're used to it. Or otherwise refute the above with some theology. Retreat from reason back into the mystery of the Christ.
>>
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>>
Looking to read Genesis soon but I don't really care to read it out of a typical door-stopping bible with terrible thin pages. Can anyone recommend a good copy of just Genesis - perhaps with good commentary/interpretation attached?
>>
>>7202352
King James Man
always go with the King
>>
>>7202322
>God is in heaven having a kek right now
>>
>>7202295
>Romans
Had no reason to believe Jesus was anything but a local agitator.
>>
>>7202352
http://www.amazon.com/Book-Genesis-Illustrated-R-Crumb/dp/0393061027
www.amazon.com/Asimovs-Guide-Bible-Volumes-Testaments/dp/051734582X/
>>
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>>7202458
My last gf was super catholic and she broke up with me because I am Protestant. She told me that she was worried I could go to hell?
What's the big deal? Why is there such rage against Protestants? I can see it the other way, but jesus.
>I love being Protestant scum
>>
>>7202258

Wait a minute, then who the fuck is St. Jude?
>>
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>>7202470
they've been indoctrinated mate
>>
>>7202558
His common name is Thaddeus.
>>7202470
She believes you're going to Hell and doesn't want to become emotionally attached to someone who will meet a bad end.
>>
>>7202295
nah, it just shows that God's omnipotence is so great that he can take Deicide and transform it into something amazing.

And no, it doesnt follow that the guys who made it possible arent guilty. Sin that gives place to the greater good is still sin, and it corrupts the soul of the person
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