Am I crazy or are there two different kinds of trans women?

You're right. the first type are actual (trans) women, who suffer from dysphoria. the second are men with AGP.

hsts, agp

>>8840038
What is AGP? Also, as far as I can tell, both are trans and dysphoric, just in different ways. I mean, most of the ones who commit suicide over dysphoria seem to be the second type, which wouldn't make sense if they weren't dysphoric.

>>8840039
What is HSTS?

>>8840048
HSTS = Homosexual Transsexual, i.e. a trans woman who is into men

AGP = Autogynephilia, i.e. a straight man who has sexual fantasies about have sex like a girl, it's a fetish more than anything else

HSTS = Actual trans women who want to live life as women because they are women

AGP = Men who see being a woman as purely a sexual experience. They only want the sexual aspects of being a woman, and should have stayed men.

>>8840052
So, I've just looked it up, and apparently this is similar to "Blanchard's Transsexualism Typology" according to wikipedia. However, you seem to have a different version of it, since you say that "AGP" trans women don't experience dysphoria? Is there some good reason to go with your custom variant over Blanchard's original theory?

>>8840032
Check out Blanchard's typology.
It's literally exactly what you describe.

>>8840039
>>8840038
>>8840052
This.

Look up Ray Blanchard.

However, the lines in my opinion are more blurred than simply "All AGP aren't really women".

It's also a non-sexual thing in a lot of cases.
It's about the full experience of being a woman, and I wouldn't say it's just a fetish per se, it's much greater than that.

It's just about the only way an AGP feels emotionally fufilled.

T. AGP

>>8840061
Blanchard's original theory is correct over this poster.
That's just a more extreme summary of it to bash AGPs, as there's a lot of AGP hate around.

Yes, AGPs experience dysphoria, oftentimes very extreme.

>>8840052
>>8840062
>>8840064
I'll read up on Blanchard's theory. However, there's something that confuses me. Wikipedia says that homosexual transsexuals "seek sex reassignment surgery to romantically and sexually attract (ideally heterosexual) men", but that seems odd. Why not just be gay, then?

>>8840068
dysphoria is still there

>>8840068
Well, it's more than just sexuality involved here.
It's at the core of one's emotions.
HSTS cannot "just be gay" - it's more than just sexuality at play here. It's hard to explain.

I'd reccomend finding a HSTS to ask about this stuff, can't help you much as an AGP.

>>8840070
Am I just reading Wikipedia's summary wrong? As far as I can tell, it says that HSTSs transition to attract men? How would that lead to dysphoria?

>>8840068
Because Blanchard's typology is a load of shit and not accepted beyond the confines of r/gendercritical, /lgbt/, and fringe communities.

It makes the mistake of conflating sexuality with gender and then adds epicycles to the theory to cover itself when it's getting it's ass kicked. You'll see people go "am I AGP even if I'm interested in guys" and people unironically reply "you're not really interested in guys, you're interested in the thought of yourself as a girl so that's why you're pseudo-attracted to guys." There's pseudo-bisexuality and pseudo-ANY SEXUALITY to explain why attraction isn't REALLY attraction because it's REALLY just affirming the theory :^)

If you think trans people ONLY fall into HSTS and AGP categories you're in for a rude awakening when you begin adding 50 epicycles to explain fringe cases and most trans people who are more complicated than a 1980's formulation of the basis of transsexuality.

>>8840072
Blanchard's theory seems to say that it's just sexuality, I think? At least according to Wikipedia. That seems odd.

>>8840078
I'm not sure if Blanchard's HSTS and AGP categories are correct, but I literally can't think of any trans woman who doesn't fit into at least one of the two I wrote in my original post. Do you have any examples?

>>8840079
It's a complicated topic, with a lot of debate between both sides.

The other side: >>8840078

There is a lot of missing information in regards to the typology. It's just a basis to get started.

>>8840079
There's a lot "built" onto the AGP/HSTS typology by their supporters.
For real answers, I'd reccomend asking Blanchard himself, on his twitter page.

>>8840082
>An AMAB MtF asexual
>An AMAB MtF who wholly believes that gay people are more accepted than trans people but transitions to treat their dysphoria anyway
>An AFAB FtM
>An AMAB MtF bisexual
Cue all the 'pseudo-asexuality' and 'pseudo-bisexuality' explanations.

>>8840089
No, see, what I'm saying is that I don't necessarily agree with Blanchard's categories (I just learned about them a few minutes ago and have several objections) but there still seems to be the distinction of "transitioning because you are similar to women" versus "transitioning because you have a strong dessire to be a woman". I have trouble thinking of any trans woman who doesn't fit into at least one of the two, and most trans women seem to only fit into one.

>>8840097
A strong desire to want to be a woman or be treated as one is literally the diagnosis criteria for Gender Dysphoria.

>>8840097
That's just plain gender dysphoria, silly.

>>8840103
>>8840107
I'm not sure how else to explain the difference; what I'm trying to get at is that the "strong desire to be a woman" type have this desire independently of any similarity to women. They seem to really admire women, if this makes sense?

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>>8840068
Because HSTS have internalized homophobia. They seek to trick straight men into sex with them, in order to sustain their delusion of not being gay. A mentally ill pack indeed.

>>8840113
No, it doesn't make sense.

>>8840114
It's perfectly normal to be homophobic. They're walking disease vectors. Fag culture is disgusting, and when society suppresses them it goes underground and is even worse. And yes, a huge number of them are pedos.

In proper traditional societies, there are lots of trannies--always have been. Known by different names, of course. There are two gender roles. If you don't pick one or the other, you're aberrant.

>>8840075
you're reading correct. HSTS want their bodies to attract men- the same way any cis woman wants. Not being able to do so causes bodily dysphoria. Same way cisgirls go for plastic surgeries. It doesn't "lead" to dysphoria- dysphoria comes before.

>>8840121
There are obvious objections to the autogynephilia model, but it kinda works as a toy model for what I'm trying to describe. Someone who gets turned on by the thought of being a woman is going to have a reason to seek to become a woman regardless of whether they are similar to women in the first place or not.

>>8840125
But if that theory is correct, why wouldn't they just want to attract men *as men*?

>>8840129
>why wouldn't they just want to attract men *as men*?
Because they're attracted to straight men, not gay men.

>>8840130
Why are they attracted to straight men only?

>>8840129
because I am a woman
[yeah, that's just because my brain says so. I really can't explain it beyond that]

There is no difference, they are both mentally ill faggots

>>8840137
Mental illness.
>>8840155
As far as I know, not all trannies are gay.

>>8840129
You're approaching the point where you have to add epicycles rather than just discard the theory and accept that gender dysphoria without HSTS and AGP considerations is really the most accurate descriptor of trans people.

Because, presupposing that trans women are women, wouldn't a trans woman be turned on by the thought of being a woman and being her genuine self? If you think, that a woman would not experience autogynephilia for imagining herself as a woman, you should take the opportunity to read this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19591032.

So, autogynephilia is possible in AMAB's and AFAB's. HSTS transitioners have a whole host of reasons why the explanation for them falls apart. And other trans people, including the majority of trans people who are bi or lesbian, are simply not accounted for or are plainly denied.

The criticisms of Blanchard's typology are quite well documented in the criticism section, which is almost as long as the typology itself, on the wikipedia page for the typology. At what point would you reject the typology as a useful descriptor for trans people and prefer an explanation of simple 'gender dysphoria' to encompass the variety of trans people's experiences?

It should be noted, AGP really is real but as an explanation for trans people it isn't that useful.

As an aside, Blanchard is hilarious. He blocks people he doesn't like, he has a Youtube channel where he makes music, and he thinks conversion therapy is defined as only applying to homosexuals instead of being applicable to trans people as well based on the top page summary of a google search. I actually do suggest you check his twitter account but don't say anything or he might block you.

>>8840169
I never proposed HSTS and AGP in the first place, I proposed "transition because they are similar to women" and "transition because they have a strong desire to be women" as explanations.

>>8840176
Then see >>8840107 and >>8840103

>>8840186
But why does it look like there's two different kinds of trans women?

The Wachowski's, Eli Erlick, Chelsea Manning, Caitlyn Jenner, Narcissa Wright, etc.; vs Laverne Cox, Carmen Carrera, Janet Mock, Blaire White, etc.

>>8840206
male brain/female brain

>>8840206
Are you taking /lgbt/ memes seriously when it comes to the classification of these people? A whole chunk of that list is 'we don't know why they transitioned' if we followed your false dichotomy. Whereas an explanation of 'they had gender dysphoria' fits all of them.

How did you classify any of these people as of a different kind to the others listed? The Wachowski's transitoned because they're similar to women but Blaire White isn't similar to women but had a strong desire to be a woman? What the fuck?

>>8840206
Group 1's trans status is a core piece of their social identity. Group 2's is a supplementary piece (political activism aside) and they seem to have more full lives apart from being trans. In other words, Group 1 are standouts and Group 2 are blenders.

>>8840068
>Why not just be gay, then?
Because most gay men don't like very effeminate men, but with a few alterations they can be very attractive to straight men.
Basically it's all about getting dick.

>>8840078
Autogynephilia is in the DSM-V and the most recent reviews say Blanchard is right.

>>8840253
Misleading. Autogynephilia is in the DSM as a recognized paraphilia, not as an etiology for gender dysphoria. Recent studies showing differentiation between androphilic and gynephilic transsexuals mirror studies showing similarities between straight men/lesbians and straight women/gays.

>>8840032
>even cis people can spot the typology
>tranny party line is still denial

>>8840032
Blanchard is a flutist.

AGP is le meme

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>>8844111
>OP is a "cis person" who can "spot the typology"
>Names 8-9 famous trans people off the top of their head and categorizes them the same way as lgbt "ELI IS AGP" memes do.

>>8840032
>It's kinda a "normie girl" vs "nerdy masculine-looking catgirl" thing. You've got to have noticed this, right? The first type also seems more likely to be straight, and the second more likely to be gay

huh just like how cis lesbians often seem to be more masculine than cis straight women. weird

>>8840211
>male brain/female brain

the most current research debunks the idea of the inherently male/female brain

>>8840032
transbians are not valid and never will be

>>8840032
Some, HSTS, are gay men with autism who have severe b body dysmorphia that their autism transforms into a gender fixation. Some in this group also are sexually aroused by being perceived as women, although they rarely admit it. They are extremely feminine gay men who fail at socializing with other males and feel they would have better odds at seducing the straight (in reality closeted gay) man of their dreams via deceit so they establish a pathological motive.

AGP are autistic straight males who want to be dominated by lesbians sexually and get off on crossdressing, but not on being PERCEIVED as female by others.

>>8844361
Hm?
The men that date HSTS are in fact 100% straight men. The women that date AGPs are bisexuals.

>>8844369
Actually the best match for an AGP is a highly GNC (read: psychologically masculine) lesbian.

>>8844361
I don't think you should base your knowledge of trans people off Chris-chan

>>8844369
If you date a gay man you are gay.

The second type like to tell people "you can be trans and not have dysphoria!" who will try to tell you gender euphoria is a thing that's equally as important.

Self-hating type one trannies recognize that this is Bullshit, and are disgusted by this undermining behavior of a life impacting issue.

>>8844397
gay dudes arent attracted to women's appearances

chasers/'curious' guys who want to get fucked in the ass are kinda gay and a lot of trans women dont want to do this, they all know these dudes are just using them so they can experiment with cock without being considered gay. but even thats not always true, i mean think of those dudes who like being fucked by their cis wives with strapons, some people just like that prostate/femdom shit i guess

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>>8844397
If you date a cis woman you are a cis woman.

>>8844470
They are attracted to the idea of a man who "passes" as a woman in public so they don't get outed as gay.

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>>8840032
You're crazy.

There are at least *3* different types of trans women. Stop it with your conclusions and waving that wrongness around. It just makes you an embarassment.

Although there is highly developped "understanding" that *to the common man*, there needs to be only one type of tranny, to not be out of line with normies' interaction related needs.

>>8844351
:( I really want to transition but I'm only attracted to women. If I force myself to date men and give up dating women, will I be valid as a trans woman, or will I still be AGP?

>>8844481
wb bisexual men and straight men who openly are with trans women. and people who are with postop trans women. or people who initially become attracted to a trans woman before learning she is trans, and then not caring after. yeah there are people like that but its not everyone

there definitely is a certain degree of sexual fluidity usually needed to be with a trans person yeah, not everyone is open to the idea of a penis, but saying these people are specifically homosexual isnt accurate. again most gay dudes are attracted to maleness. thats what makes a person gay

most actual straight non-chaser dudes who date trans women generally will not want to interact with penis at all, usually ignore it, and sometimes theyll wait until they get bottom surgery to have sex. a lot of people are cool with fucking a trans person as long as theyve had 'the surgery'

>>8840206
Chelsea Manning identified as a gay male before coming out as trans.

>>8844533
If you are with a trans woman you are not straight. You know you are a man having anal sex with another men and fudging outward appearances so neither of you has to admit to being gay. That's all its about is allowing two men to have sex while plausibly denying both being gay.

What if I am only attracted to women but just want to look and dress like an ordinary cis woman my age, am not stereotypically nerdy, and don't want to be a catgirl?

>>8840122
it's not logically sound to hate someone for being gay based on the actions of other gay people. that's called bigotry.

>>8844723
An unusual AGP.

>>8844544
>plausible denial of being gay
I didn't realize denial rested on your words instead of others' perceptions. Is that how it works?

"You're gay, you gay tranny lover!"
"No, I'm straight. I deny being gay."
"Oh, carry on! My bad, good chap!"

>>8844743
Exactly for trans they are not gay as long as nobody mentions it, and refers to them as straight, even if they are natal men having sex only with other natal men. It is a twisting of words to suit a purpose.

Gay men magically transform into straight women with the help of a surgeon, paint, and pills.

>>8844535
?

>>8844738
What am I if I'm AMAB who takes E but transitioned while I had a bf. I'm not interested in women, I'm not interested in straight guys, and I dont consider myself entirely male or female?

>>8844760
Ace, enby.

>>8844767

Being celibate is not a sexual orientation.

>>8844771
Your attraction is only to gay guys, but as a woman? This one's complicated.

>>8844760
You are an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.

>>8844773
I am not trans.

>>8844773
Not even that. My bf thinks he's GAMP but he's probably closer to bi and he doesnt have AGP. If he were to leave me I probably wouldnt show interest in any guys or girls because he's basically my one-itis.

So I'm not into gay guys, I dont like people seeing me as a guy. Not a lesbian, I dont like people seeing me blindly as a girl. Not into hetero guys, since they should concede I'm in a peculiar position. Not asexual, since I have a bf. Not HSTS since I transitioned to fix dysphoria and am not into guys. Not AGP, since had no AGP fantasies.

Even then being enby is just me thinking "it's disingenous to say I'm male or female" and then leaving it all up in the air. That's why I'm asking out of curiosity.Not as a "teehee gotchu!" but because I know a lot of "MtFs" who would restrain describing themselves as a guy or a girl and are in a similar position.

>>8844827
But you are a guy. You are into people who humor you being straight. You are attracted to males, and you are a male. You are gay. This is very simple logic, anon.

>>8844834
But I'm not into people who humor me as straight. Even my bf doesnt do that and he never has.

I cant tell if you're ignoring what I said or you intensely believe MtFs are just "guys" to try and fit MtFs into a non-nuanced understanding of gender and sexuality.

>>8844850
He humors you being a straight woman to some extent. You cannot perceive your relationship as gay even though you are both natal males. He humors the idea that gay men can have non-homosexual relationships with other men.

>>8844857
He humors me being trans and probably enby. He doesnt humor me as a woman or as a guy. Just as a person. Thus "one-itis" for eachother.

Can't be gay because I'm not into hetero or gay guys. Also can't be gay since I'm enby but seem MtF although if you think MtFs and enbys are men there's no helping that. t's basically just him and he can probably be described as "Schrodinger's sexuality" for as long as we both exist.

>>8844884
enby?

He doesn't refer to you as a man let alone as gay. As long as you never have to confront the reality of you being a gay man, you are in part happy.

>>8844889
>A gay man who doesnt like guys and cant really be called a "man" in any case to even apply the "gay man" label
Kek.

>>8844899
You are attracted to men. You are dating a man. You wouldn't be dating him if you were not attracted to men. You can distort logic however you want.

>>8844903
I'm not even that poster desu. I just find your Blanchard tier mental gymnastics kekworthy.

>>8840032
> trans
> women

Or you are male or you are female.

>>8844908
Wait so a man attracted to men isn't gay, and that isn't gymnastics?

>>8840052
look the reason why blanchard is bs is because he calls actual women (HSTS) which is really fucking disrespectful. There is nothing homo about it fuck off you perverted old men who think they know anything about us.

>>8845590
>actual women
>HSTS

>>8845605
>anon
>actual idiot

>>8845649
>triggered agp denier

>>8840114
This comment is criminally underrated.

Its nice to know I'm not alone in thinking this.

>>8840206
Chelsea Manning is HSTS.

>>8848154
>Chelsea Manning is HSTS.
nope

>>8850135
she's literally homosexual transsexual though

>>8850192
Psuedo hsts
no hsts would tweet like he does