Question for you lovely MTTs.

>>8800853
Because Gender DysPHORIA and Body DysMORPHIA are two completely different conditions. Gender Dysphoria is alleviated by allowing the patient to transition. Body Dysmorphia is not alleviated by allowing the patient to modify their body.

>>8800857
Why is that?

>>8800858
>Babby's first introduction to gender dysphoria vs body dysmorphia
Can't you just google it?

>>8800853
A question bitterhons hate you asking.

There is no evidence of long-term benefits drom transitioning in cases of gender dysphoria.

This is a mental illness, and they will never be able to prove to you otherwise as low-qualiry evidence and correlation=causation bullshit isn't evidence.

>>8800857
Different conditions, however they're both mental conditions. Dysphoria is not just the body, it's an emotional disconnect as well as many other factors.

The result is the same, mental illness. A severe version of body dysmorphia, if you will.


STOP FAPPING, START LIVING!
Transition has no long-term proven benefits.
Don't trap yourself.

>>8800853
people addicted to cosmetic surgery don't have a goal, they just keep getting augmented until they look ridiculous and their skin falls off

>>8800858
Because the conditions have different causes and function in different ways. Gender dysphoria is theorized to be caused by abnormal natal development.

>>8800868
Just like your average bitterhon, except rather than surgeries to get augmented, they fufill the ever increasing mental illness by being more and more feminine until the lie collapses on them and they detransition and life with their mental illness like they should have originally.

>>8800862
Both are disorders involving people with irrational body modification obsessions. In one case cosmetic surgery helps, in the other we are told it causes harm, why is that different?

>>8800866
Thanks anon but do you have any actual studies to back that up?

>>8800868
Well "becoming a woman" by altering your face and body a lot is a loose goal. Like do women have Brazilian buttlifts or is that not needed to be a woman?

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>>8800866
>There is no evidence of long-term benefits drom transitioning in cases of gender dysphoria.
Wrong. We've just had an entire thread about this.
>>8793732

I'll trust the professionals over some clueless psycho on the internet.

>>8800874
The true causes of Dysphoria is unknown as of current. All citations and "evidence" is geared toward the traditional narrative.

We cannot prove anything at this stage, but based on the sheer amount of reinforcement and bullshit studies coming from the bitterhons, it's blatantly obvious they're wrong.

>>8800876
So where does cosmetic surgery fall into this? I could imagine trans get a mood benefit from the hormones but does surgery itself improve mental health? Seems like it has a lot of risks and potential for worsening accompanying BDD.

>>8800876
This is not evidence. This is an appeal to authority, the APA.

[citation needed that isn't bullshit]

>>8800878
Is bitterhon supposed to be juxtaposed with noble repressors, traditional gays, or always-passing trutrans?

>>8800879
Surgery is sometimes treated as part of the process of transitioning (some countries actually require you to undergo surgery in order to legally change your sex). The thing about people with BDD is that their issue is mental: no matter how much surgery they go through they'll never be happy with how they look. On the other hand surgery does make tranners feel better (though not always), hinting that their reaction is to how they actually look rather than to how they think they look a la BDD.

This is not to say that one can't be trans and have BDD, but that BDD does not usually accompany transsexuality and that the two conditions are different.

>>8800882
>Scientific consensus means nothing
>A doctor does not know more about their field of study than an internet rando if you're sick just ask a random fucker off the street to treat you it's exactly the same

Ignoring that, though, the thread itself has plenty of links to studies pointing that out.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24344788
https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/hormonal-therapy-and-sex-reassignment-a-systematic-review-and-met
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/25690443

>>8800879
Honestly I think it's too early to tell if it will be a net benefit for trans people (I'm not one myself), but with the number of people going through transitioning I'm sure studies will be far more detailed.

Tbh I don't give a shit if someone transitions or not as long as they pay for it themselves, regardless of how necessary trans say it is, it is an elective surgery by the sheer fact that it is almost entirely cosmetic. (Orgasms are harder to have, and generally don't function the same as a natural man/woman, so don't tell me that it's deeper than not wanting dangly bits.

>>8800899
>Ignore doctors they don't know shit my opinion is what counts
ok

>>8800890
>BDD does not usually accompany transsexuality
Do you have a source for this claim?

>>8800897
Can you tell us what exactly in those links is relevant here?

>>8800913
>Do you have a source for this claim?
This is the null hypothesis, barring something that proves the positive claim that transsexuals all have BDD.

>Can you tell us what exactly in those links is relevant here?
That poster claimed that there is no evidence showing transitioning is an effective treatment. I posted such evidence.

>>8800939
I didn't say they all have it, I said there is significant overlap just on casual observation between the scope of the conditions so I was wondering why for some people surgery is good, and for others, bad.

>>8800939
You need to show WHERE in the studies you linked, the text and images, that your claim is somehow proven. Just posting links is nothing. You need to indicate what those links say and make commentary in your own words as to how what the studies say support your claims. This is basic argumentation and you NEVER actually pull the exact information from the studies that you claim makes you right.

>>8800951
See
>>8800933
>>8800960

You're presuming I'm arguing rather than educating.

>>8800978
You need to be able to state where in your source it validates your claims. I don't see what is so controversial about asking you to cite specific text and images in support of your claims.

>>8800980
It's not controversial. It's time consuming - like walking someone through why evolution is true from the very beginning. I'm here to point to what's true. You can take it or leave it.

>>8800987
Well its the only way to validate your claim. It proves you understand what is written and can put it into your own words. This is basic persuasive writing skills, anon.

I will leave it unless you can show how that text and images validates your claim specifically. Otherwise it is bullshit and you are unable to support your claim.

>>8800883
Bitterhon is a term to describe zealots of the "traditional narrative".

Only the most bitter of hons can delude themselves into false scientific belief.

>>8800897
I've covered why all those studies are bullshit in the thread you pulled them from, bitterhon.

They are either self-reported (literally anecdotal), low quality or very low quality.

This is not evidence!

>>8800939
Bullshit studies aren't evidence.

>>8800987
Point to what's "true", namely your opinion.
"Science".

>>8801002
What is the traditional narrative? Are you a repressor or a trutrans?

>>8800998
>I will leave it unless you can show how that text and images validates your claim specifically. Otherwise it is bullshit and you are unable to support your claim.
That's a logical fallacy. What I do or don't do does not change the truth value of the evidence.

>>8801008
Repressor, and proud.
The traditional narrative is the belief that transgenderism is caused by an intersex disorder - it's what is pushed as the "truth" by science, when there is zero evidence anyone can cite that proves it!

>>8801013
>what I say is truth and anything you say is wrong

>>8801008
Repressor

>>8801018
So what do you believe causes it?

>>8801013
Truth is not inherent. You need to state how what you have cited specifically supports your claims. The burden is not on me to do what is your responsibility in a debate.

>>8801019
Do you identify as a gay male?

>>8801021
We don't know the cause, however it seems logical it is a mental disorder of some sort.

However what I do know is that transitioning has no long-term proven benefits, if it did they wouldn't have to bullshit, trapping yourself is a bad idea for obvious reasons (health risks, giving into your mental illness) and that NoFap has helped me personally with the AGP/Fetish portion of the illness (I am not a supporter of Blanchard beyond AGP itself being real, not the typology).

>>8801041
So you identify as straight or gay?

What's wrong with Blanchard?

>>8801021
>Truth is not inherent
If I link to a study that does not impact what the study says. The study's conclusion is either true or not true.

>in a debate.
This is not a debate.

>>8801048
You need to show which text and images support your claim and explain that evidence in your own words.

>>8801052
See
>>8800978
>>8800987

>>8801041
Medical professionals disagree with you.

>Hurr durr they're just using u!!!!!

>>8801059
I don't give two shits about your excuses. I don't have to prove your claim for you.

>>8801066
They are though. They make money off of plastic surgery addicts.

>>8801047
Nothing is wrong with blanchard, I just disagree with his viewpoints (lack of hard evidence).

I'm not anti-blanchard, I'm strongly for alternative viewpoints, but blanchardists have the same problems that bitterhons do: lack of evidence.

My sexual orientation doesn't matter here - However I am asexual as a guy, bisexual as a "girl" in fantasy. Psuedo-bi if you will, but exclusively with AGP fetishisation, which I avoid, so effectively asexual.

>>8801069
Have you had sex with primarily men or women in real life?

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>>8801067
The money made off of transgender people is irrelevant to the medical industry.

Anyone who thinks that money is the motive for a global conspiracy against trans people are just showing are retarded they are.

>>8801066
But do they disagree with me?
Have you read the citations the bitterhons have provided, and seen the lack of evidence they truly have?

Self reported studies, low quality evidence, correlarion=causation.

The only reason medicine even supports transition is there isn't much else to even do with trannies at this stage, we need real research. Unfortunately the traditional narrative has taken over at this point, and it's unlikely to change without people like me speaking their mind until the illusion is dispelled.

>>8801077
>But do they disagree with me?
>>8800876

>>8801074
I am a virgin, I do not desire relationships whatsoever as a male. I have never sought out relationships, ever.

>>8801076
This is true, however conspiracy or not the evidence still points to the traditional narrative being utter bullshit.

>>8801076
Not for doctors that specifically serve the trans community or who are trans themselves.

Being gay got taken out of the DSM by the agitation efforts of gay psychiatrist. Plenty of reason to believe trans doctors and/or those who profit off cosmetic surgery addicts would push conclusions made off of limited evidence if it helps their wallets.

>>8801082
That's an authority, not the actual scientists themselves.

That's a clear appeal to authority, and those bodies are more political bodies than actual science. If you read the actual studies outside of the politics, the point stands.

>>8801076
i bet you think dick cutting isn't done for a profit either.

>>8801090
>That's an authority, not the actual scientists themselves.
lmao

>>8801090
I have yet to see a single paragraph of original research or a table or a graph that supports the claim that getting cosmetic surgery as a trans is a) not an addiction for many b) doesn't overlap heavily with BDD and c) improves mental health overall.

>>8801100
That's my point.
They can't produce a single bit of actual real evidence.
They're full of fucking shit.

>>8801099
Laugh all you want, just cite me a citation that isn't BS and I'll immediately change my mind.

>>8801100
Where's your data on it overlapping with BDD and surgery addiction?

>I have yet to see a single paragraph of original research or a table or a graph that supports the claim that getting cosmetic surgery as a trans is a) not an addiction for many b) doesn't overlap heavily with BDD and c) improves mental health overall.
idk try reading for once in your life

>>8801097
I personally think SRS is bad and not good for trans people most of the time.

Hormones are great, however.

>>8801106
>All professional organizations are lying and the scientists can't stop them even though they disagree with their lies it's a conspiracy

>>8801112
>I personally think SRS is bad and not good for trans people most of the time.
The science says otherwise.

>>8801111
Just a guess but we haven't seen any evidence listing comorbidities at all.

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>>8801121

You need to explain, in your own words, how research supports your claim.

>>8801111
They did read, idiot.

I've went through every one of your citations, one by one and every last one of them is one or more of the following:

Low quality evidence
Correlation=causation
Self-reported questionnaires, no more scientific than survey anon
Lacking in controls
Lacking in sample size (pimozide study this is you)

>>8801121
May be true, I'm generally not one to disagree with science, like some of the retards in this thread.

But I still feel this way. irrational or no.

>>8801131
We haven't been given any science. Show where exactly the research supports your claims.

>>8801119
Did I ever claim they are lying?
They aren't lying per se, they're just treating based off other people's word. It's not the doctors fault, do you think they even read the damn citations?

The issue is the politicized traditional narrative, the actual science even says it's pretty much bullshit.

>>8801121
[citation needed]
>>8801124
This also.
>>8801126
This as well.

>>8801128
You're a rando with no understanding of psychology though

>>8801131
I'm not disagreeing with science.
See >>8801135

>>8801141
Appeal to authority.
>psychologists are god, even when on the own studies say they are low quality evidence, self reporting studies and lacking controls.

>>8801147
>My understanding of the subject is just as good as that of a doctor you don't need to go to school to be a doctor
You just lack the basic competency to say anything useful.

>>8801156
Where has anyone said anything useful here? We got some links and were told the argument was settled.

>>8801158
Primarily in the links. I guess phoneposters can't follow them though.

>>8801162
I'm not on my phone. You need to state in your own words where the articles refute other anon's claim that they were poorly conducted methodologically.

You can't even state anything about your sources just that you are right. It is pathetic.

>>8801171
I'm not spoonfeeding you.

>>8801177
It isn't spoon-feeding to explain how a source supports your claim.

>>8801179
I'm not making a claim. I'm stating facts.

>>8801177
Also, other anon said he read them and they didn't have controls or sufficient sample sizes. You really refuse to engage with your own data to refute his claim?

>>8801180
You haven't stated a single fact.

>>8801184
Wrong.

>>8801181
>other anon
Curehon

>>8801186
https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/hormonal-therapy-and-sex-reassignment-a-systematic-review-and-met

Very low quality evidence suggests

Very low quality evidence suggests

Very low quality evidence suggests

Very low quality evidence suggests

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>>8801177

>>8801195
Learn what that means in the context of science.

>>8801197
Which, let me guess, you refuse to explain in your own words?

>>8801195
So we have at least some "Low quality" evidence, and no evidence showing that the opposite is true, so why are people going around acting like transition is terrible when, if anything, the facts still lean towards it being good?

>>8801209
Very low quality evidence without a control group.

>>8801209
Because giving cosmetic surgery addicts what they want is not a good thing.

>>8801210
>>8801213
You have no counter evidence.

>>8801217
I don't need counter-evidence when yours is so weak.

>>8801196
Look, here's how it is: a group of randos on the internet are arguing against the consensus established by pretty much every medical establishment in the west. When presented with evidence and a statement from APA they proceed to ask you to argue with them about these things directly. Does that seem sensible? What would motivate someone to ignore the position of the medical establishment but demand to argue with someone who, as far as they know, is another clueless rando?

Hint: it is not the pursuit of truth. It is a desire to try and "win" at a debate in order to prove their already formed opinion right. What's the point, then? Those who are interested in what is true have the sources. Those who are not aren't here to do anything but argue for fun anyhow. I'd rather not waste my time on such folks.

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>>8801218
>You can't reasonably prove your claim
>So that must mean my claim is true!

You're retarded.

>>8801225
So very low quality evidence proves a claim?

>>8801220
More appeal to authority.

>>8801191
Attacking a person, not their argument.

Nice try, Bitterhon.

So full of shit, you'd make a great politician.

>>8801218
This.

Gosh. These bitterhons are retarded.
Their own citations prove themselves wrong.

>>8801220
Appealing to authority again.
He said, she said isn't science.
The facts state otherwise.

Claiming truth with no evidence again.

>>8801226
No, it just doesn't prove YOUR claim (The claim being that Transitioning is harmful)

At best, you've left it at a "We don't know one way or the other"

IF you were to agree with the evidence you've posted and are willing to completely disregard overwhelming opinion of western medicine.

>>8801233
Cosmetic surgery is harmful for those addicted to it.

>>8801233
Appeal to the populace. A majority of people agreeing with something or someone doesn't prove their claim.

>>8800853
Because they are different conditions with different etiologies and different outcomes aaaand basically no relation to each other whatsoever. Anybody who thinks they are similar is a tard who knows literally nothing about either condition.

>>8800857 really should have been /thread, but nooooo, we don't argue in good faith HERE. We just troll.

>>8800899
>too early to tell
Transitioning has been around for, what, six decades now?

Up until about the late 80s, the data was kinda sketchy about it (which is understandable, the procedures all being new and poorly understood by the general public); but since then virtually all the data is overwhelmingly in agreement that transition is a net positive.

>>8801002
>Bullshit studies.
You're honestly a loon, and/or deeply uneducated in general. There's nothing about the dozens of studies done on the mental health of trans people that I've seen which was "bullshit." The studies posted by this anon, for example: >>8800897 all have samples sizes that range from "acceptable" to "excellent" and methodology otherwise which meets academic standards. There is nothing "bullshit" about them because you find their results threatening somehow.

>>8801100
You've never seen it because none of those things are in question amongst actual researchers. a) it doesn't fit the definition of an addiction in ANY regard, that idea is a joke, b) it is probably possible for BDD to be a comorbidity; but again, their etiologies are completely different, and BDD is a type of anxiety disorder unrelated to being trans, c) there are fucking dozens of studies so you're not ACTUALLY looking. You're looking to be spoonfed only the opinions you like.

>>8801220
>the APA
>anything to do with pursuit of truth

>>8801252
So no trans people have addictions to cosmetic surgery? Women need to have brazilian butt lifts and size D boobs to be women?

>>8801252
I'm not looking to be spoonfed I am looking for you to ENGAGE with the data you claim supports your logic. Where exactly in the data are your claims supported, and how. Not all studies are created equally and it is up to YOU not ME to prove that your citations enhance your claims.

>>8801229
>>8801230
>Appeal to authority
You literally don't understand what he term implies. If you're sick do you go to see a doctor or a random person on the street? Is it an "appeal to authority" to say that a doctor knows more about medicine than a random person off the street, and that if you're sick you should probably see a doctor? If someone had to perform surgery on you would it be an "appeal to authority" to suggest that it would be better to get a surgeon to do it?

Unless you're an expert yourself it is reasonable to believe the consensus reached by experts. That's what we do every day. If you want to argue against them you need to actually argue against their statements, not against someone pointing out the scientific consensus. Chances are that you lack the competence required to argue against them though.

>>8801246
>Scientific consensus means nothing

>>8801266
Are you admitting trans are sick?

>>8801274
What EXACTLY is the consensus you claim based on?

>>8801274
Why is it that you have no argument besides "but somebody else says..."?

>>8801279
See
>>8800876

>>8801280
Trans are comfortable with delusions.

>>8801283
That is a statement by doctors, not evidence from a controlled study.

>>8801280
Why is it that you think that you're qualified to argue with professionals about something you have no knowledge about?

>>8801284
That's a position statement i.e. a statement of consensus.

>>8801289
Like Michelle Cretella?

http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im-pediatrician-transgender-ideology-infiltrated-field-produced-large-scale-child-abuse/

>>8801289
I'm literally talking to an evangelist telling me that only church elders are "qualified" to interpret matters of faith.

>>8801293
Exactly right. That people like her are a tiny, tiny minority among the professional class should tell you a lot.

>>8801298
So your only argument is that doctors mostly approve of trans? No argument about trans themselves, just people paid to operate on them.

>>8801295
Would you let a random unqualified person perform surgery on you? Engineer your car? Fly your plane?

>>8801306
So if the pope says the bible is true, does that make it so?

>>8801304
>So your only argument is that doctors mostly approve of trans?
The vast, vast, overwhelming majority supports the views I espoused. This is the scientific consensus. My position is that non-experts should respect the scientific consensus because they lack the knowledge to argue against it.

>No argument about trans themselves, just people paid to operate on them.
And we're back to the "it's a conspiracy! They're doing it for money!" claims..

>>8801308
Religion isn't science and science is not religion.

>>8801313
So you have no specific evidence to support these claims?

>>8801320
>ITT no reading comprehension

>>8801322
I don't even think you have read your own studies because you can't cite me a single table, image or paragraph of text from any of your sources that supports your claims with quality evidence.

>>8801325
I don't think you can think since you're still trying to argue with me after all of this time when I said I won't argue with you at least an hour ago. I'm going to cure you of your spoon addiction lad.

>>8801332
It isn't spoon addiction to ask someone to bring out the claims they think their evidence is making.

>>8801345
You asked a question. I answered the question and provided sources. You can either follow up on said sources or not. You're not getting anything else from me.

>>8801353
No you need to explain how those sources support your claim specifically.

>>8801359
I don't because it's not an argument. It's an answer.

>>8801360
It isn't an answer to just post a link. You haven't stated a single thing from those studies that supports your claim.

>>8801360
My original question was very specific:


Is there research demonstrating a direct effect on the suicide rate by cosmetic surgery (having it or not, or having a lot of it) for trans?

And you did not demonstrate HOW those studies support your claim.

>>8801363
I posted the answer according to the scientific consensus and some studies backing it. A statement and some citations. You can either read up on things or not but my job is done.

>>8801380
I don't just need to know WHAT people who agree with you think I need to know HOW they came to that conclusion. You need to explain that in more depth.

>>8801371
I don't seek to demonstrate this. It's not an argument in a debate. It's an answer with some sources.

>>8801380
1 controlled study and a bunch of low quality evidence is not good support for your claim:

The American Psychiatric Association Task Force on treatment of GID uses their evidence coding system to evaluate studies concerned with treat- ment issues: most evidence is on at or below level C (cohort or longitudinal study) (refer to Byne et al. for further reading) [29]. The only controlled study on the effectiveness of sex reassignment surgery (SRS) was conducted by Mate-Kole et al. who compared a waiting list condition with a treat- ment condition and found better results in the postoperative groups

>>8801392
It isn't an answer because you cannot prove your source actually says what you claim.

>>8801397
They DO say this:

Some studies suggest that GID is frequently associated with severe psychiatric comorbidity, both on axis 1 and 2, from psychoses and major affective disorders [10,11] to severe per- sonality disorders [12,13].

>>8801385
>I don't just need to know WHAT people who agree with you think
The scientific consensus matters when it comes to forming an opinion as a non-expert.

>I need to know HOW they came to that conclusion
That's a broader question. The studies linked partially answer it.

>You need to explain that in more depth.
I don't need to do anything. It'd be nice of me to explain why things are as they are and I could do so to varying degrees of depth but that is not fundamentally part of the answer.

>>8801403
There is nothing here to logically delineate "gender dysphoria" from simply referring to the gendered portion of body dysmorphic disorder.

Why is surgery good for trans but bad for BDD? You have failed to explain this.

>>8801404
You need to cite HOW those studies "partially answer" that because that is your opinion. Multiple people might read a text and come to different conclusions so demonstrating your understanding of the material at hand matters.

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>>8801404
Your own studies show psychological welfare WORSEN after SRS.

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>>8801419
From

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>>8801422
None of this data is controlled or had large enough sample sizes to be generalizable. You can't just ignore these issues with the data.

>>8801394
"My claim"? I'm simply relaying the professional position. I haven't claimed anything myself.

>>8801397
>It isn't an answer because you cannot prove your source actually says what you claim.
You can read the source to see what it says. It is not my job to "prove" this by summarizing studies.

>>8801432
I read the source and found some things to contradict your claims. Subjective psychological distress increases after SRS in your own study.

There was only 1 controlled study, no high quality evidence, etc.

>>8801422
SRS is only one sort of surgery. There's also breast augmentation etc.

>>8801457
Ok so where exactly is the data that surgery is not giving into addiction? Why is this different from indulging patients with cosmetic surgery addictions? Why is it bad for one patient who wants 10 procedures to get them but not another?

>>8800853
Because they're too different mental health conditions that respond to different thing.

>>8801482
Both are people demanding medically unnecessary plastic surgery. In one case, surgery is usually denied, claiming it will impair their health. In another case, surgery is approved, claiming it is the ONLY thing that will improve their health.

BDD is very common in gay men.

Why are they treated differently?

>>8801439
Yeah it slightly contradicts the others in that sense. Check out the second link.

>These studies enrolled 1833 participants with GID (1093 male-to-female, 801 female-to-male) who underwent sex reassignment that included hormonal therapies. All the studies were observational and most lacked controls. Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria (95% CI = 68-89%; 8 studies; I 2 = 82%); 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms (95% CI = 56-94%; 7 studies; I 2 = 86%); 80% reported significant improvement in quality of life (95% CI = 72-88%; 16 studies; I 2 = 78%); and 72% reported significant improvement in sexual function (95% CI = 60-81%; 15 studies; I 2 = 78%). Conclusions Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life.

It's "very low quality evidence" because it is a meta analysis of self-reports rather than a more objective measure. When it comes to studying things like this it is hard to gather any significant amount of "high quality" evidence that is as rigorous as the evidence found in e.g. physics.

>>8801492
I don't think people expect physics here, just not only self-reported data.

>>8801492
>most lacked controls

That is a problem anon.

>>8801465
Because surgery alleviates dysphoria but not BDD. The conditions are different and have different causes. Check out the other studies.

>>8801499
Surgery worsened emotional health in one study that was linked.

>>8801494
Objectively measuring psychological well-being is kind of a challenge.

>>8801505
Suicide rate before and after elective cosmetic surgeries vs those not allowed to have the surgery being a control group would be pretty decent way to measure.

>>8801504
Right, it did. The large-scale meta-analysis says it generally seems to help though.

>>8801512
Did they separate surgery from hormones? Were they controlled? This is such shitty data to work with. None of it has large enough sample sizes to be generalizable so it is really variable.

>all these people unironically wasting their time trying to argue that transition is effective

Clearly y'all haven't been arguing with your retarded anti-vax extended family since you were twelve over Facebook like I have. You'd have realized by now the crowd of uneducated science deniers can't be argued with. Something something pigeon shitting on a chess board and what not.

>>8801509
It's worth looking into, though I don't think the current body of evidence is invalid given the amount of people involved.

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>>8801523

>>8801521
It's better than him posting

>DUN TRAP URSELF NO FAP!!!

in every thread.

>>8801491
Because they're different conditions. Mexican food will give me abdominal pains and so will intestinal cancer, that doesn't mean I need chemo everytime I eat something that's a little hard on the stomach.

>>8801585
So there's no overlap?

>>8801408
It's good for trans persons not suffering BDD in the same sense is good for any other cis persons not suffering BDD, but want to correct something making them dysphoric..

If it's BDD you're trying to fix a imaginary thing, like your nose is to big when it's really not (only you see it).

>>8801594
But isn't trans the same. If you look like a boy but think you are a girl, only you see that. If you think your penis is too big for a boy and only you see that and it needs chopping off, how is that different?

>>8801529
Yeah but she's gonna do that regardless. You could literally tear open the heavens and have God shout down to earth 'transition is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria' and she'd call God a bitterhon and tell him to stop masturbating. It doesn't matter what you say. That's why I brought anti-vaxxers into this. You can't argue with someone more interested in feeling right than knowing what's right, even moreso if a portion of their argument hinges on 'my feelings are more right than scientists facts'

>>8801605
I am not that person but are you saying there is never comorbidity between BDD and gender dysphoria?

>>8801608
No I'm saying don't argue with people who are more concerned with feeling right than being right because it's a waste of time.

>>8801617
So BDD is considered this:

A somatic symptom disorder, formerly known as a somatoform disorder,[1][2][3] is any mental disorder which manifests as physical symptoms that suggest illness or injury, but which cannot be explained fully by a general medical condition or by the direct effect of a substance, and are not attributable to another mental disorder (e.g., panic disorder).[4] Somatic symptom disorders, as a group, are included in a number of diagnostic schemes of mental illness, including the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. (Before DSM-5 this disorder was split into somatization disorder and undifferentiated somatoform disorder.)

In people who have been diagnosed with a somatic symptom disorder, medical test results are either normal or do not explain the person's symptoms, and history and physical examination do not indicate the presence of a known medical condition that could cause them, though it is important to note that the DSM-5 cautions that this alone is not sufficient for diagnosis.[1] The patient must also be excessively worried about their symptoms, and this worry must be judged to be out of proportion to the severity of the physical complaints themselves.[5] A diagnosis of somatic symptom disorder requires that the subject have recurring somatic complaints for at least six months.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_symptom_disorder

But wouldn't gender dysphoria be the same.

Having unrealistic beliefs about your body when nothing is medically wrong with you?

>>8801097
circumcision?

We're talking a difference of a magnitude of 100. 50% of the population is male, .5% is trans.

>>8801600
Because transition elevates dysphoria and makes me happy and content, whereas BDD you'd just keep on chasing..

If you're mtf and look like a guy, and everyone can also see that I'd say that's valid dysphoria, not BDD..

>>8800853
Is there ANY evidence that surgery helps people with BDD? On the other hand surgery helps trans people as evidenced by numerous self reports. Basically first reply best reply.

>>8801600
>>8801630
Because the cause of transsexuality is different. Trans people are trans because they have brains which are in some ways shifted toward being like those of the other sex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

>>8801654
>have brains which are in some ways shifted toward being like those of the other sex.

what is the high quality evidence that proves that?

>>8801588
everything has a bit of overlap. There's an overlap with BDD and prostate cancer.

The question isn't whether there's overlap, it's whether there's a significant enough overlap to justify thinking that the disorders are actually just variants of the same thing, and nobody's been able to show that level of overlap.

>>8801664
There is far more overlap between BDD and gender dysphoria. Both are medical conditions where there is nothing wrong with you medically speaking but you demand cosmetic surgery from others. In one case this is good, but not the other.

Why did we let a terf thread get this much attention?

>>8801672
[citation needed]

>>8801659
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
>The results of this study show that the white matter microstructure in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of FCs and MCs. Our data harmonize with the hypothesis that fiber tract development is influenced by the hormonal environment during late prenatal and early postnatal brain development that is proposed to determine gender identity.

>Here, we investigated whether sexual orientation associates with diffusivity measures. No effects on our main findings were observed when sexual orientation was regressed out in the ANCOVA design. Moreover, there was no significant effect of sexual orientation on diffusivity parameters in the regression analysis including all subjects and using group as factor of no interest.

>>8801422
Why so dishonest? What I see here is that anxiety after HRT is 30% lower and after SRS is 25% lower. This is not a statistically significant statistic. This may suggest srs worsens conditions slightly or stagngates them; more likely it suggests that people who have severe enough body dysphoria to get their cocks cut up might not be doing quite as good as the group with HRT only. The latter is corroborated by many other longitudal studies following individuals before and after srs.

>>8801681
So this study took people who were hormone naive and compared them to controls and that proved that they had female brains?

>>8801674
It's a net good. These people raise common talking points that are consequently debunked, educating repressed tranners.

>>8801684
SRS increases subjective psychological distress. How do you know it wasn't statistically significant?

>>8801681
Twenty-three female-to-male (FtM) and 21 male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals, as well as 23 female (FC) and 22 male (MC) controls underwent DTI at 3 tesla.

Not a representative sample. Variability in the brains of 20 people can no more be causally attributed to gender identity than anything else.

Don't feed the "you need to explain it to me" troll.

Bitch, we don't "need" to do anything for you. You're pathetic.

>>8801703
Although brain structural sex dimorphisms have been linked to hormonal differences between the sexes during fetal development (Chou et al., 2011), puberty (Herting et al., 2012), or adulthood (Witte et al., 2010), the specific biological mechanisms underlying these differences remain to be determined.

specific biological mechanisms underlying these differences remain to be determined.

specific biological mechanisms underlying these differences remain to be determined.

so they don't know this brain region underlies a biological mechanism for gender but that it your claim nonetheless?

>>8801630
That's nice dear. Like I said I'm not really concerned with wasting my time arguing with nuts like you though.

>>8801630
Trans people don't have unrealistic beliefs about their body, just dislike towards the sex of their body.

>>8801725
So there is a ton of overlap between BDD and gender dysphoria that you will ignore out of convenience.

I couldn't find any data on comorbidity but I would welcome it. That said they are identified about the same apart from gender dysphoria being fixed on gender and being a surgery-approved condition where BDD elective cosmetic surgery is proscribed.

>>8801729
>I have a feminine voice I must be a woman!

How is that not an unreasonable belief?

>>8801733
You need to explain why and how you came to that conclusion.

>>8801744
I did in prior posts.

Externalizing your body dysphoria so others won't comment on it because it is clear you are one sex trying to be the other doesn't mean they actually perceive you as that other. It just means you have externalized your delusions about your body to the point where others are forced to accept them or face criticism or emotional unrest from you.

>>8801733
A transwoman with a voice that sounds like a womans(or who thinks her voice sounds like a womans) wouldn't feel anxiety over it though, it wouldn't cause her dysphoria, she might be a bit delusional or in denial of how well her voice passes tho, but that's different from BDD. What she would feel anxiety over is her clearly male voice. Gender dysphoria is anxiety over secondary and primary sexual characteristics and gender roles, all of which are things I doubt you'd consider unreasonable to believe in.

>>8801733
>I have a feminine voice I must be a woman!

>How is that not an unreasonable belief?

except that's not the mindset at all. It's "I want people to not clock me, so I'm going to try and make my voice feminine so I pass better"

>>8801690
Not exactly. The result is NOT that transsexuals have "female brains". It's that, when it comes to white matter tract microstructures transsexuals typically fall between typical male and typical female values. But yes they were pre-HRT.

>All transsexuals were recruited from the transgender outpatient unit of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Medical University of Vienna, were naive to steroid hormone treatment, and wanted sex reassignment.

Saying that transsexuals are "the opposite sex inside" is itself an unscientific oversimplification. It's more like an intersex condition where trans people are between male and female in some ways. In that sense the scornful TERF MTT is actually a bit more accurate, though in deep conflict with their belief that transwomen are just men when they're in a category of their own.

>>8801751
No you didn't.

Explain why or admit you're wrong.

>>8801690
>>8801758
The study also included FTMs so that, of course, also applies to them with everything flipped about.

>>8801752
No it would be anxiety at feminine characteristic in light of a male physical presentation. Seems identical to body dysmorphia, just gender specific.

>>8801756
That isn't the feeling from the beginning. That is a feeling in light of knowing people will stop pressing you if you externalize your gender delusions.

The original feeling is one of black-and-white thinking that any non-gender conforming characteristics are out of place with your biological sex presentation which is inherently distressing, just like if you think you need to be more muscled due to BDD but most people regard you as muscled already.

>>8801766
It did not include a representative sample size. That variability cannot be causally linked to gender.

>>8801776
>>8801770
You're an idiot. I hope you choke on your estrogen pills.

>>8801790
I am not a trans, why would I take them?

>>8801703
When you see this trend, over and over again, in different regions you have to suspect something's up. Check out the Wikipedia article. A lot of the studies there are individually problematic but when put together they paint a picture.

>>8801715
>So they don't know this brain region underlies a biological mechanism for gender but that it your claim nonetheless?
It is, and you are right. We don't know what the functional effect of these differences is. We just have a very tight correlation between these differences (as group level averages) and gender identity. That pre-HRT transsexuals exhibit sex-shifted brain characteristics in the aggregate is unlikely to be a coincidence.

>>8801770
>nontrans saying they know how trans people actually think and anybody else is wrong

gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8

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>>8801790
You've been arguing in this thread for hours and you've made no sense and no arguments the whole time.

You're more mentally ill than any tranny on this board. Get help.

>>8801801
You need a single study that is high quality. A bunch of low quality evidence ≠ high quality evidence.

You do not have enough evidence from 20 people to establish a causal link.

>>8801694
The SRS group is 25% lower psychiatric morbidity across the board compared to the untreated group. The hrt group is around 30%. Usually in psychological statistics a 5% difference is the cutoff point for statistic significance, so it is barely significant.

Both do much better than untreated, and people who get SRS usually have much worse dysporia, so its actually a miracle that the SRS group arent doing worse than that.

>>8801812
>dumbass doesn't know what a metastudy is and it's place in scientific understanding

>>8801776
The sample size could stand to be larger but 80ish isn't bad when it comes to neurological brain scans. It's incredibly unlikely that we'd find what we found by coincidence. The P values are pretty tight.

>>8801825
Ok so it is significant though?

>>8801826
That wasn't a metastudy. The one on white matter was just 20 people and brain scans.

>>8801830
Still not a causal link to gender identity.

>>8801834
Oh also forgot to mention that gay people and trans have never been proven to have different brains either.

>>8801812
We dont have enough evidence to prove it with absolute scientific rigor. That is correct. That is a flaw with psychological science overall, however, which is why psychology is memed often here.

However there IS enough evidence to say it is reasonable and wise to transition because the weight of evidence supports positive outcomes. There IS enough evidence to say that someone who outright 100% rejects it an spams "NOFAP LOL BITTERHONS" probably has an agenda and a screw loose.

>>8801812
>You need a single study that is high quality.
Honestly this study is pretty high quality since it relies on direct physical observations. 89 is not HUGE but it is not bad.

>A bunch of low quality evidence ≠ high quality evidence.
That depends on the problem with said studies. If it's sample size then yeah a bunch of studies, put together, can say something with a good degree of certainty.

>>8801834
>20 people
89

>>8801841
This precise study shows that orientation isn't a factor when it comes to the region studied in it.

>>8801841
are you saying they have the same brain?

>>8801825
This.

>>8801841
Oh, also, this study included both androphiles and gynephiles so..

>>8801847
You don't have much evidence that is high quality at all. It isn't about psychology is about replicability and these studies tend to not have control, have small samples, or other methodological issues.

>>8801850
see>>8801525
not high quality

>>8801856
How are you going to show that with only 20 people of each type? You are really going to argue 20 people of each type are a representative sample for millions?

>>8801857
Well more that sexual orientation is a confounding factor for much of this research.

>>8801866
20 people of each type in a study that hasn't been replicated is not high quality evidence.

>>8801877
That is all true, except the samples are large enough to be statistically significant. There are inherent issues in using controls, we've talked about that. However, the evidence is consistent and broad enough that 100% dismissing it and constantly shitposting "BITTHERONS LOL NOFAP" at people who do what feels right, what psychologists with clinical experience overwhelmingly say is right, and what makes them happy, is high quality evidence that you are unhinged and or have an agenda.

>>8801913

O RLY?
see
>>8801424

The evidence needs to be forged in larger controlled studies before it is reliable. A lot of shitty evidence doesn't amount to a little good evidence.

>>8801877
>>8801879
Similar studies have been performed with natal sex-attracted MTFs and FTMs

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024
>White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study.

>Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195418
>The microstructure of white matter in male to female transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A DTI study.

>Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated MtF transsexuals falls halfway between the pattern of male and female controls. The nature of these differences suggests that some fasciculi do not complete the masculinization process in MtF transsexuals during brain development.

So this part has certainly be replicated. What hasn't been replicated so far is gynephiles also having feminized brains as the latest study suggests. I think it is important to pay attention to the big picture.

All of this also matches up with other things we've observed. For example if one twin is trans the other is overwhelmingly more likely to be trans even if the two were reared apart. There are also animal studies that show that rats and monkeys behave like the other sex if they've been exposed to certain levels of sex hormones natally during key moments. A lot of little arrows pointing toward natal hormone levels.

>>8801926
So they didn't replicate MTF against MTF they chose a different group. Again, these are not large enough sample sizes and the correlation here cannot be held to be specifically regarding gender identity or excluding sexuality as a confounding factor (especially with only ~20 people in each group).

>>8801926
Arrows are not dead animals.

>>8801933
Also in all cases the people were steroid naive and tested to be so?

>>8801921
With a massive volume of case study longitudal evidence that supports a hypothesis, a scientists response is not "TRANSITION IS USELESS LOL JUST NOFAP BITTERHONS". Sorry bud you're just butthurt and insane.

It's fine to ask for higher quality and case controlled evidence, that is the scientists response. Unfortunately you won't get it because it's unethical and impossible to deny mtfs hormone therapy, because of how clinically effective it is.

>>8801951
we could have so much more data if it weren't for all those darn scientific ethic laws

>>8801951
How exactly was this evidence longitudinal. As before, a mass of low quality evidence ≠ high quality evidence.

Unfortunately you won't get it because it's unethical and impossible to deny mtfs hormone therapy, because of how clinically effective it is.

so basically circular logic

>>8801933
The more studies of this sort you perform the higher your total confidence level is. That's the idea behind replication. All of the evidence, put together, is quite persuasive in my view.

>So they didn't replicate MTF against MTF they chose a different group.
The new study involved MTFs and FTMs of all orientations as well as a bunch of straight cis people.


I'm curious. You're " "Gender Critical" " right? Do you, at this point, at least accept the possibility that trans people might just be intersexed?

>>8801961
It is all too small to generalize.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

You can't say that the variability in neurology is due to gender identity just from comparing 80 people's brains.

>>8801946
I'm sorry but this really shows me that you don't pay attention to what I quote. Both of the two studies I quoted just now say that in their titles, which I also quoted. This was asked of and answered about the study I linked before that.

>>8801964
If this was the only study showing that trans people have brains which are in some ways virilized/femininzed I'd agree, but it isn't.

>>8801971
So even though the sample is too small to be generalizable, it isn't because you have so many small samples? Is that your claim? I listed the sample size chart about and none of these studies reach the criteria for broader applicability.

A bunch of self reported data and case studies is not causal evidence.

We have also strayed away from any explanation of why cosmetic surgery is good for some people with body image issues and not for others.

>>8801955
Longitudal, I was using to equate to prospective, that may be an error. Referenced here are two prospective studies:

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/trgh.2015.0008

Note how the author points out that there is a lack of high quality evidence, as you are, which is fine. What is not fine is taking that and then saying "LOL NOFAP BITTERHON", you fucking loon. You are a fucking loon repressed tranny autist! Deal with it!

>>8801951
Not them but for what it counts I appreciate you joining in on these threads.

>>8801978
I never said nofap or bitterhon. I just said the evidence is low quality and too small of a sample to generalize the data from the sample to gen pop trans.

>>8801951
>>8801980
Not to imply that you should waste your time arguing with these people for long, mind, but that seeing someone science literate point out things now and then is valuable.

>>8801984
There is no direct evidence here that a particular brain region functionally controls gender identity, let alone that said region is intermediary in size in trans between opposite sex non-trans.

>>8801977
The nature of transsexuality is kind of salient here. Self reports aren't what's being discussed in regard to that. Brain scans, twin studies and so on are.

>>8801992
Well in twin studies sexual orientation is self-reported, no?

>>8801983
That's totally correct, you can't generalize the treatment to the population with certainty. Saying decades of clinical wisdom and successful case studies is irrelevant is just not right though. It is certainly relevant.

And we certainly need more studies and funding for said studies on transgender people. We will probably get those now since transgender people are beginning to assimilate and drop off the radar less, because society is starting to have to not despise them.

You'll have to forgive me for equating you to bitterhon poster, she has haunted this board for a while now.

>>8801987
>There is no direct evidence here that a particular brain region functionally controls gender identity
Okay, but there is a tight correlation between people being trans and people exhibiting these intermediate patterns on average. You don't need to know the exact function of a certain region in order to note the connection. The specific nature of the connection as connected to the experience of people who suffer from gender dysphoria says a great deal. That we know that hormones can affect these areas and that animals react to abnormal natal hormonal exposure as they do says a great deal.

>>8801994
Sexual orientation is kind of irrelevant to the twin studies since what they're testing is whether, if one twin is trans the other is more likely to also be trans.

>>8802003
>tight correlation

not exactly you have a lot of potential confounding factors and not a lot of information that the brain regions you are testing even code for functional control of gender identity.

Animals cannot be trans in the human sense.

Animals behaving more masculine or feminine-like is not equivalent to a human who is a male becoming fixated on the idea that he is a female.

>>8802009
Sexual orientation becomes a confounding factor. If they both are natal gays than that could account for the genetic overlap, not being trans.

>>8802014
They tested for dysphoria, as in actually identifying as trans. The twins were reared apart.

>>8802046
My point is any genetic confluence could have been from shared sexual orientation, not gender identity.

>>8802014
protip: the genetic overlap is due to them being twins

>>8802062
I get that I am just saying they both could be viewed as gay males.

>>8801801
>We just have a very tight correlation between these differences (as group level averages) and gender identity.
Yet for some reason you reject the tight correlations backing Blanchard.

>>8802458
I don't? What I reject are his etiological suggestions, which are not backed by his data. Inborn brain traits predate his psychological explanations.

>>8802475
You don't dispute the two types?

>>8802486
There is a clear correlation between age of onset, sexual orientation, childhood GNC behavior and likelihood to exhibit autogynephilia. The mainstream medical community accepts all of this because it is backed by good science.

Early onset MTFs are overwhelmingly more likely to be androphilic and GNC as children and far less likely to be autogynephilic than late onset MTFs (though they still have autogynephilia at a rate far higher than the norm). Late onset MTFs are overwhelmingly more likely to not be exclusively androphilic, more likely to be gender conforming as children and overwhelmingly more likely to develop autogynephilia.

What I (and mainstream medicine) dispute are the two different etiologies Blanchard proposed for trans people. The explanation for why they're trans. The idea that the early onset group becomes dysphoric due to society rejecting its members as men and that the late onset group develops dysphoria due to autogynephilia which is an expression of some highly theoretical erotic target location error. This doesn't follow from what we've observed.

As you've probably noticed I also disagree that there is a 100% strict correlation between onset group and autogynephilia. Every study ever conducted showed that around 20% of androphiles had AGP while only around 80% of the rest had AGP. Blanchard&co usually chose to dismiss this as people misreporting but I think it's unscientific to think that misreporting is the only plausible explanation because that fits your pet hypothesis. To me it seems far more likely that it's a correlation rather than a strict iron law.

>>8801261
>Where exactly in the data are your claims supported
I wouldn't even know where to begin answering this question. People have linked you to studies where THE FOCUS OF THE STUDY was on the how transition affects the mental health outcomes of trans people. Saying "where in the data are your claims supported" is complete nonsense. It's like you're asking for people to read the study to you like it's a bedtime story - as if this would make any difference to you reading them yourself.

It's not like we're studying something like, say, the IQ scores of kids in the ghetto where you have to address multiple competing theories and potential factors influencing their scores. "Are trans people mentally healthy and/or better-off post-transition" is pretty straightforward - we have assessment scales that we give to everyone (for example, scales of depressive features). If we give them to trans people post-transition, do they score about the same as cis people? (Answer: "yes" in most studies.) That's not fucking complicated. You can also assess the number of trans people who have jobs, stable friendships or stable romances post-transition compared to pre-transition. Does it improve? (Answer: yes.) Etc. This is not rocket science. And you can screech about those things being "low evidence" or whatever if you want, but this is how we assess mental health IN EVERYONE. If it's not good enough for you in trans people, then the entire concept of "mental health" is meaningless here. You're throwing out literally everything we have.

>it is up to YOU not ME to prove that your citations enhance your claims.
You're going against scientific consensus; the burden of proof is actually on YOU.

>>8801257
I've never heard of it, no. It's probably a POSSIBLE comorbidity. That doesn't mean it's common.

Getting cosmetic surgery, in and of itself, is not a sign of addiction to surgery. Some people (including cis people!) get a couple of completely-cosmetic surgeries and then stop because they are satisfied with the results. And while most people consider boob jobs to be entirely cosmetic, a trans woman who had very little breast growth might indeed feel less dysphoric getting augmentation.

People who go after operations until they're falling apart like Michael Jackson are a tiny minority with a serious problem.

I'm trans, I've had surgery (though no transition-related surgery yet). Trust me when I say that I can't ever imagine being "addicted" to such a miserable experience. Surgery isn't fun. I personally want my transition over and done with so I can move on with my life.

>>8801422
>Mental health after SRS is significantly improved compared to the baseline
>you point out yourself it's a small study and its weaker support for transition is contradicted by the larger meta-analysis linked below it
wew lad

>>8801424
There is believed to be approximately 100,000 trans people living in the US and the second meta-study collected together a sample size of 1833 people. For a 2.5% margin of error at CI = 95%, that chart suggests a sample size of about 1500 people.

>>8801494
That's basically impossible, and also stupid.

We don't require more than "self-reported" data on the emotional well-being of cis people.

This is just moving the goal posts.

>>8801509
And also extremely unethical. No study like that would ever get approved.

>>8804540
>burden of proof
Don't give a shit. I'm normal. You're the tranny. Engage with the data and give me a meaningful way it supports you or its just your feels against facts.

>>8804684
lmao this post is such a self own

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>>8804684
How much of a loser do you have to be to have to hold the fact that you're NOT a tranny over people on the internet to feel superior?

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>>8800866
STOP LIVING, START FAPPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>8805042
If we could have lgb without you guys you know we would.