>transgenders will defend this get off our board

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>>8770784
What sort of reaction/shitfest are you trying to incite??

start being original, kthxbye

>not transgendered's
Weak bait

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Transgenderism is just a sick fetish, and God will judge you all.

>>8770824
>transgender meme.png
I think ya meant to type it as "Nonbinary meme.png".

you can't transition to resemble a gender that doesn't exist, nimrod

>>8770838

I'm not a faggot, I'm not familiar with your faggot terms and I don't care to be either. Strawman whatever you like, God will still judge you guilty of profaning his temple.

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I don't even know what to say

>>8770784
That person no longer regrets their SRS and even deleted their account so their posts wouldn't be misinterpreted. They just had post-surgery depression, really common thing for all kinds of surgeries.

>>8770998
[citation needed]

>>8771010
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4736276/

>>8770784
lul not everyone wants srs

>>8770998

Wow, that is so true, let us just ignore
this https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
statistic that verifies roughly half of pre AND post op transgenders commit suicide.

Now before you give me a crock of shit about how it's because "of discrimination!!!1", let me remind you that this is not a result of discrimination, but perceived discrimination, mental illness, and absolute and abhorrent profaning of the body GOD gave them.

>>8771161
All that shows is that people who have gotten surgery have attempted suicide at some point in their life at an equal rate to those who haven't had surgery yet. Not that the suicide rates after surgery remain constant. They even address this as an issue with the study, but of course you haven't actually read it

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>>8770784
That's a well-known series of posts cap'd by /pol/ and then removed by the writer because she realized they're being misused. Spoiler: She got better. She later posted about how she also had a hard recovery, in the past tense. The fact is that most transwomen are pleased with their vaginas, very few regret it and complications are very rare.

>>8771198
>evelyn

We're not talking about surgery "evelyn", we are talking about men getting their balls and dick mutilated.

The suicide rates after surgery increase even further, which makes what you're saying, as incomprehensible as it is, bullshit.

You, and all your ilk, are faggots as a result of your sins, and your sins in the form of fetishes have come to possess your entire meaning and life.

You are not a person, you are a sex object, and you seek to be defined as a sex object. And so may God judge you as an object.

>>8770844
But you are a faggot though.

>>8771211
Started to feel better =/= being pleased and happy to get your dick cut off

The absolute state of the metal gymnastics you faggots use.

>>8771221
Stop mentioning God as if you speak for him. Also, youre just projecting. You see trans people as sex objects and you see being trans as a fetish, not trans people. Im sorry youre mind goes through so much torment when you think of trans people. May God show you the way to mental health my friend.

One of my close friend (i'm a tranny irl) had srs, since that it mentaly fucked her badly, she's afraid, in pain, and rly unstable, she left the town since 3 week and no one know where she went, maybe dead. i think i'll stick to an orchi :)

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>>8771242

Deuteronomy 22:5

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

Deuteronomy 23:1

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Abomination is not a word taken lightly, especially in the Holy Bible.

One CANNOT be a transgender and a Christian. You practice in abundance what the catholics call, mortal sins; mortal sins separate you from God, and prevent you from attaining salvation.

Romans 1:24-25

24 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality, they were all killed, and all met their fate in Hell, as their pervesion led to sin, which ultimately and utterly without redoubt or questioning, leads to suffering, which leads to death.

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>>8770824
>implying Jesus wasn't trans.
start reading buzzfeed and get woke.

>>8771303
>"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
This is stupid because many women and men who arent LGBT wear clothing technically crafted for the opposite sex.

>"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
Not all trans people get srs

Transcending all this, I really shouldnt even have to address anything regarding Bible quotes, because your religion is your own personal experience and, unfortunately, it doesnt dictate the lives of us here on Earth. Being trans is evident and scientifically supported and we have the ability to further understand trans people, so that will continue to be done as you continue to interpret your own PERSONAL belief system.

>>8771364

I can only hope you find redemption and repentance before it is too late.

Goodbye faggot.

>>8771364
You wasted so much time responding haha what a retard

>>8771303

1. Prove God exists
2. Prove the Bible is the genuine word of God, has never been modified by man, and that its events happened
3. Prove any translation you have ever read is 100% consistent with the text in its original language

>>8771375
Ill strive to be an accomplished and goodhearted person. You should too, maybe by not calling people faggot on the internet, God is cringing at you

>>8771383
Im not really wasting time, Im doing nothing so whatever. Also your input is useless

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>>8771390

1. Prove you have a scientifically identified brain cognition made for a female that is not just a manifestation of mental illness.
2. Prove God doesn't exist
3. Give me actual proof that trannies who get their dick and balls mutilated are happier

Can we get back to the original image? I have the uncensored version and her "vagina" is a huge open hole. It's just all sorts of fucked up and I believe that the doctors doing these things are morally bankrupt people.

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>>8771420
No no goy, no no.

Being gay and transgender is perfectly normal and acceptable, no it's not a bad thing, who would ever tell you that?

Yes, that's right, be a good little goy.

>>8771161
>statistic that verifies roughly half of pre AND post op transgenders commit suicide.
The statistic is about the suicide ATTEMPT rate, not the actual suicide rate. And it is a bit of stretch to claim that 40-42% is "roughly half". It's fairly close, mathematical speaking, but people with an obvious agenda should be held to a higher standard.

>let me remind you that this is not a result of discrimination
[citation needed]

>mental illness, and absolute and abhorrent profaning of the body GOD gave them.
Do you think GOD did not also give them mental illness? Do you think any mental illness can be overcome by just "free will-ing" hard enough? You should know that is an unfalsifiable view, it allows you to assume everyone has a reasonably easy life and only suffers because of their own laziness and personality weaknesses. Until, of course, you finally face a serious problem that's beyond your control. Then you're likely to start thinking differently.

>>8771221
>The suicide rates after surgery increase even further
[citation needed]
And don't even TRY posting the Swedish study, the author herself has openly condemned people like you for intentionally misinterpreting it.

>You are not a person, you are a sex object, and you seek to be defined as a sex object.
So you think people deserve to be objectified simply for seeking to live in a body that they are not disgusted by? Seriously, imagine waking up one morning with a giant oozing hole in your chest and being told that although medical treatment is available which will return you to normal, that seeking it will make you an evil sinner who deserves to burn in hell. That's basically what you're demanding of trans people. Don't demand of others what you would be unwilling to do yourself.

>>8771303
>Paginism is superior to Christianity
>Christians destroyed our culture
So then you believe that a superior culture can never be destroyed by an inferior one? Then, unless you believe Christianity to be an inferior culture, you should surely have no fear of a society turning to atheism, agnosticism, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or the multitude of other non-Christian belief systems. Because, if Christianity is superior, and the superior belief system is destined to triumph, then nothing that happens could threaten Christianity's destiny, and it would be no great tragedy to see your friends and family turn away from Christianity, since nothing that can happen can alter the end of history.

But your behavior is at odds with this. You seem to believe that being a devout Christian in your own life is not sufficient, that you must also spread your beliefs into the world, even to those who are unwilling to accept them. Which implies that at least one of your premises is false. That leaves us with three possibilities:

1. Christianity is the superior faith, but merely being superior does not guarantee that a faith will triumph.

2. A superior faith is always guaranteed to triumph over an inferior one, but Christianity is not superior to the faiths it is currently in conflict with.

or

3. You are not acting rationally.

>>8771434
>Don't demand of others what you would be unwilling to do yourself.

I don't demand others to subscribe to a falsified ideology of feelings and suffering. Because I don't want these people to go through with this and commit suicide therefore, I am wrong?

You would love to take the moral highground, freewill, love everyone and all that. That all sounds good on paper, but in reality is has no bearings, and if you only knew the cold reality of life outside your fantasy gay bubble you would understand that all you are is a mentally deranged person with desires implanted in you because of subversion, subversion by both the media, possibly your parents, and most importantly, you.

For every action taken there is a stimulus that causes a person to want to take that action, remove the stimulus, and remove the desire to do that action.

Hang around other faggots, and, as statistics also show, you are more likely to become a faggot, be raised by a faggot, and you are more likely to be a faggot.

http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research

"Children of lesbian mothers are 75% more likely, and children of homosexual fathers are 3 times more likely, to be currently in a same-sex romantic relationship."

So if being a transsexual or gay is so oppressive, why would you seek for your adopted children to become gay and seek the same treatment? Would that not put the same level of suffering on them?

You are an experiment, and a sex object as I had said, you live for the dopamine release that this fetish, and yes, that is ultimately what it is, a fetish, gives you.

Now I dare you, I double fucking dare you faggot, to try to respond to this post with reason and sense without seeking out a strawman to punch holes in.

>>8771303
>"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
Who decides what is a man's or a woman's garment? Plenty of women these days, even Christian women, wear pants. Does that mean they are destined for hell?

>"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
So if someone suffers an injury to their genitals, then that's it, they lose their chance of getting into heaven? What if the injury occurs in the process of fighting for Christianity? Isn't that kind of a dick move on the part of God, to deny salvation to a devout believer simply because of a misfortune inflicted upon them by an enemy?

>One CANNOT be a transgender and a Christian.
Which is why religion is a deeply personal matter. You are free to be a Christian if you want, but it is not your duty to force salvation on those who do not desire it. If a trans person has come to the honest conclusion that "sinning" serves their interests better than salvation, it is your duty as a human being to respect their decision. You can inform and teach, but not seek to impose your will on others. To do so would be an insult to their will, and by extension, their humanity.

>Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality
It's my understanding the crime of Sodom was RAPE, not homosexuality itself.

>>8771480
>So if being a transsexual or gay is so oppressive
snot oppressive to be gay unless you're in like uganda or something
bein trans is oppressive

>>8771408
Not them but:

1. No "proof" of the brain-sex theory is truly necessary, all that needs to be proven is that transitioning is the option most likely to lead to personal happiness. No other treatment is seriously accepted by the medical community, and simply trying to "repress" is frequently a path to personal misery.

2. Burden of proof. God may well exist, but given the lack of concrete evidence it is highly unlikely that God actually is as the Bible says it is. You're welcome to believe the Bible if you want, but you should accept that it is a belief rooted in faith, not evidence, and that it is unreasonable to demand that arbitrary other people accept it as literal truth.

3. Again, burden of proof. Show that turning to religion is AT LEAST AS EFFECTIVE as gender transition in terms of improving the mental state of those with severe gender dysphoria.

>>8771427
Something can be acceptable and not bad, without being normal. All other things being equal, the world would be a better place if there were no gender dysphoria, but that's immaterial - we don't live in that world, nor do we have an apparent way to change our world to be like that one. Gender dysphoria exists, like it or not, and the only thing we can do is seek to treat it in the most effective way possible.

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>>8771517

1. You didn't answer this question.

2. You didn't answer this question either, you just used rhetoric and feel-good philosophy to dance around it

3. Same as before. I'm not telling you to convert, I know that it doesn't matter what I would say, if I say something that disagrees with you, you become un-receptive to honesty and advice. What truly matters is that you fully understand the wages of this sin, as it is clearly stated in the Bible, which is death.

>>8771490
This is a perfect example of why nothing I say could matter to you.

Not only do you dodge any hope at logic, but you instead use flimsy rhetoric to make a valid point seem ridiculous, even though the intent of the verse was entirely known. You broadly generalize and strawman because you have no other argument, you would guise it as "trolling", but the truth is if any of you had ANY argument, you would use it.

>Something can be acceptable and not bad, without being normal.

Of course things can be acceptable and not bad without being normal, but you cannot use that as a cover all blanket for the devastation to the body that being a "transgender" causes.

You truly live in the delusion that a transition will bring you happiness, but the emptiness that is inside you is not because you are the wrong gender, that is simply what you've convinced yourself to believe. Your familial issues and lack of structure are 99% of the time why you trannies get these wicked ideas.

And they are wicked ideas. Browsing a /lgbt/ board that pretends they aren't wicked doesn't make it so.

I say this because I hope you will realize your mistake before you end up killing yourself once you reach a point of no return, if you haven't already burnt bridges with your family.

I've spoken what I needed to say, I know at least one of you will reply to this in an attempt to "troll", but I will not respond.

God bless.

Why are Christians so hateful and vile? Why can't they follow their own beliefs? It's baffling

>>8771480
>Because I don't want these people to go through with this and commit suicide therefore, I am wrong?
You are wrong because of the fanaticism with which you claim that religion is a better treatment for gender dysphoria. Maybe it works for some people, but the statistical evidence doesn't seem to be there.

>You would love to take the moral highground, freewill, love everyone and all that. That all sounds good on paper, but in reality is has no bearings, and if you only knew the cold reality of life outside your fantasy gay bubble you would understand that all you are is a mentally deranged person with desires implanted in you because of subversion, subversion by both the media, possibly your parents, and most importantly, you.
If I saw credible, substantial evidence that there was some better option than transitioning in treating gender dysphoria, I WOULD support that option wholeheartedly.

>>8771480
>For every action taken there is a stimulus that causes a person to want to take that action, remove the stimulus, and remove the desire to do that action.
True, but oversimplified. Sometimes "removing the stimulus" is easier said than done. And, as you're probably aware, the prevailing theory is that "gender identity" resides in the "read only" area of the brain, meaning you can't reasonably be conditioned or medicated out of it (at least not without such an intense level of brainwashing that it would impair your ability to function in other areas), and a true "cure" won't be possible until we have the ability to understand and modify the brain with much greater precision than is available today. Furthermore, if gender identity is determined entirely by EXTERNAL stimuli, that would imply that gender (beyond the immediate physical anatomical differences) IS a social construct. Meaning it would be possible, for example, by precisely controlling one's environment, to raise a boy in accordance with what we generally consider "female gender roles" or vice-versa, without any problems.

>Hang around other faggots, and, as statistics also show, you are more likely to become a faggot, be raised by a faggot, and you are more likely to be a faggot.
That's hardly surprising, but it's only really a "problem" if one considers homosexuality to be bad. And if you do, then that suggests a clear solution: if you don't like homosexuals, don't hang out with them. It only becomes a problem if you adopt a collectivist mentality, where you decide that since you personally are opposed to homosexuality, that all homosexuals need to be "rescued" from homosexuality.

>>8771480
>http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research
FRC is far from being unbiased, and they use a definition of "family" which specifically excludes non-heterosexual families. Which is just plain a bad faith way of describing one's viewpoint, it's the equivalent of saying "I believe in free speech, except for those I disagree with". There are quite a few criticisms of the Regnerus study as well, such as that it used a very broad classification of "homosexual parents" (a member of an otherwise heterosexual couple would be classified as homosexual if they had a homosexual relationship at ANY point, even for a brief period of time), and Regnerus himself cautioned against interpreting the results as being indicative of a fundamental inability of homosexual couples to raise healthy families.

>So if being a transsexual or gay is so oppressive, why would you seek for your adopted children to become gay and seek the same treatment? Would that not put the same level of suffering on them?
Homosexuality is only oppressive due to how OTHER PEOPLE treat homosexuals, it doesn't inherently entail suffering. And while gender dysphoria is inherently a cause of suffering, there doesn't seem to be a clear way of controlling its prevalence without engaging in blatant violations of ethical principles.

>>8771561
>feel-good philosophy
You mean like the belief that trans people are only suffering due to their own poor decisions? That is a textbook example of "feel-good philosophy". As I pointed out above, it's fundamentally unfalsifiable, because at its most basic level, it dismisses their problems as "not real problems" or "they deserve it".

>What truly matters is that you fully understand the wages of this sin, as it is clearly stated in the Bible, which is death.
People who are devout Christians already know that, and those who aren't are unlikely to believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and applicable to people living today. And many trans people have argued that not transitioning would lead to death as well, their appeals seem as flimsy to you as your Biblical argument seems to non-religious trans people.

>even though the intent of the verse was entirely known.
Not to me, I responded to my understanding of the verses. Since we clearly have different understandings, and I have already presented mine, why not explain yours?

>Of course things can be acceptable and not bad without being normal, but you cannot use that as a cover all blanket for the devastation to the body that being a "transgender" causes.
Which is a meaningless statement until someone presents evidence of there being a better alternative for trans people.

>>8771230
>What is post-surgical depression

Of course the OP pic has no mental gymnastics and was right to ignore the accounts posts in r/transpositive as well, right?

Dumbass. Post surgical depression =/= regretting SRS.

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>>8771565
Why are sodomites so angry, and always trying to blame Christians for their own problems? Why do these people try to normalize being mentally ill?

>>8771837
Uh, it was a Christian who came into this thread and started telling all the trans people to repent. People aren't saying that Christians are responsible for gender dysphoria or anything like that, just that the one Christian who insists on derailing the entire thread to talk about their belief system isn't really helping.

>>8771837
Some degree of "normalization" is necessary for a disorder to be treated effectively. Before that happens, it's too easy to dismiss it as "somebody else's problem".

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>>8771961
Yeah. Encouraging people to chop off their dicks is definitely way more helpful. Stupid Christians am I right?

>>8771968
Sodomites should stop shoving their mental illness into public view with their sodomy pride marches, "treatments" that involve genital mutilation, etc.

>>8770784
most people on this board aren't even trans, this board turned into a shit show of trolling so everyone who was smart or legit left and the ones who stayed are masochists. You already got what you want. Are you happy you get to shitpost and act like an idiot for the whole world to see? Instead of actually keeping things on topic related to actual /lgbt/ stuff?

>>8772058
>LGBT
>T
>not on topic
Are you retarded?

>>8772010
>Yeah. Encouraging people to chop off their dicks is definitely way more helpful. Stupid Christians am I right?
Which one is statistically more effective in treating gender dysphoria?

>Sodomites should stop shoving their mental illness into public view with their sodomy pride marches, "treatments" that involve genital mutilation, etc.
The public is not your private property. You don't have the right to deny other people freedom just because what they do with their freedom makes you squeamish.

>>8772193
>the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

>The public is not your private property. You don't have the right to deny other people freedom just because what they do with their freedom makes you squeamish.
Nah. There are indecent exposure laws for a reason.

>>8772144
If we have to always argue into shit then this is off topic. I remember when /lgbt/ had less trolling and people were friendly now it always devolves into arguments over shit that cis people think they know.

>>8772260
>>the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people
That says literally nothing about the suicide rate of trans people who received different or no treatment.

>Nah. There are indecent exposure laws for a reason.
Most people don't regard being trans or gay as being "indecent exposure". And good luck even defining such a law that wouldn't constitute discrimination on the basis of sex.

>>8772300
>discrimination on the basis of sex
But there are only two sexes and "tranny" isn't one of them.

>>8772512
A law that says being trans is "indecent exposure" would likely be essentially a law against crossdressing. Which would be a form of sex-based discrimination.

>>8772535
When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, no sodomite yelled out, "this is a form of sex-based discrimination!", do you know why?

>>8772583
>do you know why?
Because they were destroyed for rape gangs, not for homosexuality.

>>8772601
Because it never happened, because every word in the bible is just more deceitful straight dog shit.

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>>8772601
Homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Sodom-and-Gomorrah.html

>>8772608
Go back to /r/atheism.

>>8770804

> Cuts penis off to fulfill fantasy of becoming a woman
> not tranny

Is anyone else sick of this absurd cherry-picking that trannies do?

The mental gymnastics that they go through to try to justify their ideology and keep their fantasy alive is just draining.

We really need to start a campaign to 'Drop the T'.

>>8772614
Why don't I just keep pointing out that none of you straight pedophiles ever tell the truth?

>>8772614
No it wasn't and it's really tragic that you are twisting His message into your own message of hate. I pray for the people like you every day and I am thankful to God that He is a loving God.

>>8772617
>this is /pol/ thinking they are being clever
Subarashi

>>8772272

You realise that 'CIS' people, or as we call them 'people', can actually recognise reality, right?

We don't allow the feelings, beliefs and desires of schizophrenics or anorexics to dictate objective reality.

>>8772633
>cis
>people

HAHAHAHAHA OH WOW

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>>8772627
I'm just stating facts. Stop acting like sodomy is good. It's not. It never will be, so just stop.

>>8772630

>smug sense of unearned moral superiority
>encouraging people to engage in genital mutilation
>encouraging self-harming behaviours that lead to suicide
>denial of objective biological reality

This is /tttt/ thinking they're being clever.

>>8772641
But anon, straight pedo lies are facts. That's just worthless disease.

>>8772645
>denial of objective biological reality
But that would be you, sweetie :3
Can't you just go back to r/alt-right to brag about your epic trolling already? You've gotten stale

>>8772651
*aren't

>>8772657

>trolling

Please explain to us the biological 'reality' that you happen to be so enlightened about.

>>8772669
The objective reality that Christian CIS white males like you are biologically inferior to just about any comparably privileged group? And try to mask that by trying to bully the less fortunate?

>>8772682
They're objective inferior to bullshit-gorged dead maggots.

>>8772583
Don't worry, I'm sure your God will hire you a good lawyer.

>>8772614
That article is rather weak as an argument for your conclusion. There's no evidence that the angels were willing to have sex with the men (meaning it would have constituted rape), and rape is pretty universally condemned as a horrendously evil act. The Abrahamic God certainly doesn't seem to have a positive view of homosexuality, but it seems doubtful that it would have had a significant impact on His decision to destroy a city, considering that the people of that city were ALREADY guilty of trying to rape an angel. I mean, do you believe that God's punishment of the city would be lighter had the angels been disguised as women?

>>8772633
"Objective reality" is far more intricate and detailed than what you learn in a seventh grade science class.

>>8772669
That gender transition is the most effective known treatment for gender dysphoria.

>>8772682

So, no. You complain about biological reality, and then cannot present any alternative that isn't entirely based on your 'feelings' or fantasies.

Please tell us how you will remove the Y chromosome from every single cell in your body.

Tell us how you will convert all of your internal organs to those of a woman - how will a man get ovaries, a cervix, an actual vagina?

Tell us how you will produce eggs instead of sperm.

Tell us how you will transform a male endocrine system into a female endocrine system that can naturally produce female hormones.

Tell us how you will transform your bone structure to match those of the opposite sex.

I'm genuinely interested in the answers to these questions, since you apparently have some sort of special scientific insight worthy of a nobel prize. Please enlighten us.

>>8772711
>That gender transition is the most effective known treatment for gender dysphoria.

In the same way that an anorexic vomiting and weighing themselves after eating is the most effective known treatment for their emotional discomfort.

It is only temporary. It encourages ever-increasing self harm behaviours, and the suicide rate does not go down after 'transitioning'.

>>8772756
OP here, God bless you Anon.

>>8772735
Why do you think the only legitimate ways to go through life are as a fully-functional biological female or as a regular cis man?

>>8772756
>In the same way that an anorexic vomiting and weighing themselves after eating is the most effective known treatment for their emotional discomfort.
Find a doctor that actually says that. They're not the same disorder.

>It is only temporary. It encourages ever-increasing self harm behaviours, and the suicide rate does not go down after 'transitioning'.
And you know of something that works better? Show me the studies.

>>8772862

>Why do you think the only legitimate ways to go through life are as a fully-functional biological female or as a regular cis man?

Because every man is a 'cis' man. Trannies know they aren't really women, that's why they keep getting more and more surgeries to maintain the fantasy/illusion that they are women. Wanting to be something and being something are not the same thing. The suicide rates for trannies are the same before and after transitioning. So clearly it is not a legitimate way to go through life. You can't 'go through life' if you're dead.

>Find a doctor that actually says that. They're not the same disorder.

Mental disorders are not discovered, they are invented and voted into the DSM by a panel of Psychiatrists at the APA. But both are based on fantasies of 'wanting' to be a particular thing (thin/opposite sex), and then engaging in a series of self-harming behaviours in order to make the fantasy real. There is also an emotional discomfort that comes from looking in the mirror and seeing that reality doesn't match the fantasy. Self-harming and body mutilation continues, and in all cases the boost in mental health is only temporary. The discomfort always returns when reality sets in - again, the suicide rates reflect this.

>And you know of something that works better? Show me the studies.

The most successful treatments for anorexia are not encouraging them to vomit and weigh themselves. The most effective treatment is to treat anorexia as a fantasy being made into a reality, and recognising that the pursuit of the fantasy - with positive feedback from others - leads to more extreme behaviours. They are effectively taught how to eat again.

A program to teach trannies how to actually accept their biology, how to appreciate their bodies, and learn how to be men - even if they're not masculine - with healthy ways to express their fantasies (drag, sex) is labeled as hate speech, and sometimes illegal.

>>8772862
is >>8773034 cont.

But it is amazing how every single time there is criticism of the underlying fantisies that trannies hold, and their absolute distortion and denial of biological realities the only response is smug self-righteousness and more dismissal.

When someone asks the questions posed in >>8772735
suddenly the thread goes quiet, and usually dies. That's not just because they legitimately cannot answer these questions, but they actively engaging in avoidance behaviours that would force them to confront reality.

It is much more comfortable living in a bubble, an echo-chamber, where your fantasies are constantly reinforced. But the bigger you grow inside that bubble, the closer you get to the edge. Eventually you reach the edge, the bubble bursts and you can no longer hide from reality. And at that point you end up with suicide.

Opponents to gender ideology - who recognise it for the fantasy it is - are almost always called 'nazis' and 'haters' and 'trolls'. In reality it's not coming from a place of hate. It is coming from a place of wanting prevent it from happening to others.

We don't want people to mutilate their bodies because they're just depressed. We don't want people to kill themselves. We're often just giving some tough-love so that people who are trapped in their bubble can escape it before it gets to that point.

Biological realities exist. Life is shit for everyone. Everyone wants to be someone else at some point. But trying to make impossible fantasies into reality is just a recipe for disaster. People outside the bubble can look at it objectively and call it out for what it is. This ideology needs to stop. It is destroying people's lives.

But some people will defend the right to mutilate their bodies, encourage others to do so and live in what is regularly described here as a 'total fucking nightmare'.

>>8773034
>A program to teach trannies how to actually accept their biology, how to appreciate their bodies, and learn how to be men - even if they're not masculine - with healthy ways to express their fantasies (drag, sex) is labeled as hate speech, and sometimes illegal.
Most trans people do those things ALONGSIDE transitioning, like you say they KNOW that they're not the same as cis women. So they do "accept their biology". But as for "learning how to be men" - the only man a typical mtf would be comfortable living as is one completely devoid of masculine traits, to the point that calling them a man seems absurd. And that's basically the same as transition. Look at /femgen/ for instance. That's what gender-dysphoric cis men look like. Gender dysphoria may have some similarities to anorexia in terms of symptoms, but it doesn't really work the same in practice. The disorder occurs on a much lower, more instinctual level, so it's very hard to "teach" someone out of it. They're aware, on a conscious level, that the "fantasy" isn't real. But that doesn't make the dysphoria go away.

>>8772010
That image is so misguided its funny
>spreads epidemic level aids through anal intercourse
Your forgetting about the heroin epidemic my friend. Which is why countries that implemented clean needle programs saw a drastic decline in AIDS cases
>abuses children at a rate 10 times higher than general population
http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research heres where you found that tid bit of info and the survey question was by a parent or caregiver which can include bio fathers and etc
>destroys foundation of marriage
idk what to tell you either we separate church and state or we don't. you cant have marriage be dealt with by the government and give you legal benifts AND be controlled by preachers. If christians wanted marriage to be a christian thing then they could have had their own little ceremonies and handled it themselves. But you guys wanted tax benefits and legal recognition so that means you have to share the concept sorry.

>>8773093
It may not come from a place of hate, but it usually comes from a place of ignorance or at least misunderstanding. It's simple enough to say "just accept biological reality and don't mutilate yourself". But that's not a real answer to what trans people are going through. They already know about "biological reality", but it doesn't offer them any comfort or relief - many trans people would likely PREFER to be delusional, wishing that they were able to falsely BELIEVE that they have the body of the sex they identify as, because at least then the awareness of their body would not be a cause of dysphoria.

>>8773112

>the only man a typical mtf would be comfortable living as is one completely devoid of masculine traits
They're aware, on a conscious level, that the "fantasy" isn't real.
>But that doesn't make the dysphoria go away.

What you just wrote is that they have already formed a pre-determined outcome that would make them 'comfortable', that it is 100% dependent on the fantasy becoming reality, and therefore the discomfort remains.

That is ideological victimhood. They didn't attempt to learn anything, they are still projecting their fantasy onto their identity, repressing their actual biological identity, and measuring their 'dysphoria' (discomfort with reality not matching their fantasy) by how successful they have been at manifesting their impossible fantasy.

This type of thinking and therapy was faulty from the beginning. If you measure your levels of discomfort by how comfortable you are with turning your impossible fantasy into reality, then you will always have that discomfort.

That is consistent with what I typed in previous posts - the 'dysphoria' will ALWAYS come back because the fantasy will never be real. This is an even stronger argument against the false-hope of transitioning. There will never be a time when they are 'woman enough' to make it go away.

Therefore, any kind of therapy needs to start with that reality - not the false hope that transitioning will somehow 'fix' them. They need to learn to enjoy being a man, find healthy ways to express the fantasy (drag performances, acting classes, sexual roleplay), but not body mutilation through FFS, SRS, HRT etc.

>>8773131
see>>8773163

The entire ideology underpinning Gender Dysphoria is logically flawed, and so any treatment that uses the manifestation of the fantasy as the yard-stick for success treating the discomfort caused by the fantasy is doomed to fail.

>>8770998
>That person no longer regrets their SRS and even deleted their account so their posts wouldn't be misinterpreted.
[citation needed]

>>8773163
>They didn't attempt to learn anything
What exactly do you expect them to "learn"? There isn't some secret knowledge that will make the dysphoria suddenly go away.

>If you measure your levels of discomfort by how comfortable you are with turning your impossible fantasy into reality, then you will always have that discomfort.
But they're not CHOOSING to measure their discomfort that way. That's just what their discomfort is tied to on a biological level.

>They need to learn to enjoy being a man, find healthy ways to express the fantasy (drag performances, acting classes, sexual roleplay),
What percentage of their lifespan would they spend actively engaging in those activities? 20%, maybe, if we want to be optimistic. And that would still be 80% of the time that they're still stuck living as a man, which causes dysphoria. And there would be nothing to address the dysphoria on a biological level - that's what HRT does. If it were possible to "turn dysphoria off", like you're suggesting, even temporarily, then obviously the treatment would be different. But so far the only way to reliably do that is with HRT. If trans people lack the ability to transition, they tend to basically shut down, because they lack the motivation to really care about anything else. And you can't just help them find new interests - all interests must build off existing ones, and any interests they may have are overridden by the more immediate need to have a body that is not at war with itself.

>>8773190
Again, the "yard stick" is within the biological system, it's not something trans people choose to do.

>>8773229
A body at war with itself is not a male in a man's body. It's a male pretending he is in a female's body.

You talk about gender dysphoria as if it is from birth. But we both know that that is utter bullshit. The only studies that have tied gender dysphoria to DNA genomes have been proven to be LGBT-biased in nature and obviously in any logical person's eyes, would not be accepted.

As was stated, and ignored, of course, in a previous post the transgender requires the stimulus of his surroundings to further his delusion. What was once fantasies becomes a false reality. Now, if you think a 50% suicide rate in transgender individuals equals satisfactory treatment then you obviously are not of sound mind yourself. All you appear to me is a tranny attempting to rationalize and justify your twisted behavior. And you do it, whether you know so or not, at the stake of the lives of innocent people with confusion.

>>8773229

>Again, the "yard stick" is within the biological system, it's not something trans people choose to do.

Dysphoria is just the discomfort from reality not matching the fantasy. It is not an identity.

That is the critical and logical failure of gender ideology. It ignores biological reality and tries to match the biology to the fantasy - which is impossible.

It is the ONLY mental illness where people are encouraged to indulge the delusion - perpetuate it - and self-harm in an attempt to manifest it. In ALL other cases, it is the faulty thinking that addressed and treated.

Schizophrenics are not told to listen to the voices in their head. Anorexics are not encouraged to purge. Gamblers are not encouraged to gamble. Even depressives are not encouraged to stay in bed. In all cases, indulging in the fantasies and encouraging the self-harm leads to bad long-term outcomes.

But Gender dysphoria is different. Self harm is encouraged, and it is simultaneously being pushed as a political ideology - compared to a sexuality rather than any other type of disorder. Why do you think that is?

Any therapy that doesn't immediately start from the objective reality that transition is a) impossible, and b) harmful because it is impossible, is going to fail.

People learn to cope with troubling thoughts all the time. They learn to distinguish between fantasy and reality. They learn to understand (through things like CBT) what are healthy behaviours and what aren't. There is a MASSIVE gulf between accepting something as an impossible fantasy, and taking steps to turn it into reality.

Trannies are choosing to use their fantasy as the yardstick for their dysphoria - not any kind of objective criteria. But in order to use objective criteria, it must first be acknowledged that 'dysphoria' is just the discomfort from the fantasy not matching reality in the first place.

>>8773316
>Dysphoria is just the discomfort from reality not matching the fantasy. It is not an identity.
Nobody's saying it's an identity. It's a form of pain.

>That is the critical and logical failure of gender ideology. It ignores biological reality and tries to match the biology to the fantasy - which is impossible.
There is no "gender ideology", any more than there is "ideology" involved in the sensation of touching a hot stove.

>It is the ONLY mental illness where people are encouraged to indulge the delusion - perpetuate it - and self-harm in an attempt to manifest it. In ALL other cases, it is the faulty thinking that addressed and treated.
Because it's not caused by "thinking". It's caused by the actual physical structure of the brain, an area which can no longer be altered by thinking by the time the disorder is diagnosed.

>But Gender dysphoria is different. Self harm is encouraged, and it is simultaneously being pushed as a political ideology - compared to a sexuality rather than any other type of disorder. Why do you think that is?
Because it was historically thought of as being "super gay", when people did not understand gender and orientation. And there is no such thing as a truly straight trans person, in terms of how society sees them.

>Any therapy that doesn't immediately start from the objective reality that transition is a) impossible, and b) harmful because it is impossible, is going to fail.
Then your definition of "failure" is inconsistent with physical reality. The effectiveness of a treatment is measured in its ability to help the patient live their life successfully. Transition has a much better track record in that regard than does your suggestion.

>>8773316
>Trannies are choosing to use their fantasy as the yardstick for their dysphoria - not any kind of objective criteria. But in order to use objective criteria, it must first be acknowledged that 'dysphoria' is just the discomfort from the fantasy not matching reality in the first place.
No, they are not "choosing" to use anything as a "yardstick". The "fantasy" is simply the manifestation of the dysphoria, the two are one and the same. And unless you have a way to attack the dysphoria directly, you can't "get rid of" the fantasy. Attacking the fantasy is an error, because the fantasy is not the cause of dysphoria, it's the other way around. It's futile, because the dysphoria will just keep bringing the fantasy back. Only by attacking the dysphoria do you have a chance to destroy the fantasy.

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>>8773486
>Transition has a much better track record in that regard than does your suggestion.

Tell us oh wise one who requires studies for every statement, where is your statement confirming this?

>>8773548
The Swedish study (the one that people like you love to misinterpret) says that trans people who transitioned in recent years are not significantly more likely to attempt suicide than the general population.

>>8773668

I don't know what "the swedish study" is, and I'm not going to look it up either.

The burden of proof was on you, you failed to provide any proof at all.

You failed, you and your ilk have failed, in every aspect of life, you cannot even realize the basic principle that makes us all human, biology.

I pity anyone that has to suffer you for any time longer than it takes to nut in your ass.

Goodbye sodomite.

>>8771375
reading the bible makes you a faggot

>>8771408

2. Prove that the real god is not named moloch, and that he doesn't demand human sacrifice.

>>8773725

you havent proven anything either

>>8773725
You haven't posted the slightest bit of proof of your theories either. Not my fault that I pointed you in the right direction and you refuse to follow up on it. Your mistake is in viewing biology as a mythological narrative, rather than as a material system which can be studied.

>>8773486

>Nobody's saying it's an identity. It's a form of pain.
Everyone is saying it is their identity. That is the core of Gender Identity politics

>There is no "gender ideology", any more than there is "ideology" involved in the sensation of touching a hot stove.
There absolutely is a gender ideology. The belief that one can change their biological sex, the belief that there are more that two genders, all of this has no scientific basis in reality. It is just 'feelings' and 'belief'. It is as much an ideology as any religion.

>Because it's not caused by "thinking". It's caused by the actual physical structure of the brain, an area which can no longer be altered by thinking by the time the disorder is diagnosed.
Again, this is a belief. There is absolutely no scientific study demonstrating any difference between the function of a tranny or non-tranny brain, nor is there any study demonstrating any causality of brain structure or function relating to ANY mental illness. If what you're saying is true, there would be objective medical testing for Gender Dysphoria - in which case it would not be a mental illness, but a physical illness. This is not the case.

>when people did not understand gender and orientation
Implying that people 'understand' gender now. Again, it is ideology based only on subjective 'feelings', not on objective measurements.

>Transition has a much better track record in that regard than does your suggestion.
Transition does not reduce the suicide rate. As mentioned in earlier posts you are not 'successfully living your life' if you constantly engaged in increasingly more extreme self-harm behaviours or if you are dead.

>>8773502
>The "fantasy" is simply the manifestation of the dysphoria, the two are one and the same.

But this is not true. The dysphoria (as it affects the individual) is the negative feelings that arise from the disconnect between the fantasy of wanting to be the opposite sex, and the reality that it is impossible to become the opposite sex.

The dysphoria (the feelings) is the symptom, not the cause. Just like with anorexics, the bad feelings go away with self-harming behaviours, but the underlying faulty thinking remains - so the feelings come back.

>the fantasy is not the cause of dysphoria, it's the other way around.
This is logically fallacious. The fantasy never goes away even with transitioning. You're advocating pursuing the fantasy in order to treat the dysphoria. But that's not treating the dysphoria or the fantasy. It is making both of them worse.

No one is arguing that the fantasy should go away. The dysphoria (discomfort) does go away with recognition that the fantasy will never be reality AND finding ways to successfully live the biological reality AND finding healthy ways (through performance, or sex) to express the fantasy.

The dysphoria is not a physical condition. Like all disorders, it is a list of thoughts, feelings and behaviours that emerge from the fantasy or the pursuit of the fantasy.

Much like anorexia begins with dieting that gets out of control - the fantasy comes first (I want to be thin), the behaviours manifest (dieting), the behaviour is socially rewarded (you look great), and then the underlying beliefs and feelings take hold (I need to keep losing a little more weight, I'm still fat). Then there is a spiral of behaviours and feelings that eventually leads to death.

We don't treat the feelings, because all feelings are reactions to stimuli (including beliefs) - not things to be acted upon. We treat the faulty thoughts (fantasies) that lead to the feelings and behaviours.

>>8773851

>biology
There is no physical cause to Gender Dysphoria. By definition (in the DSM), a mental disorder cannot have a physical cause - because then it is not a mental disorder, but rather a mental symptom of a physical illness.

No such physical illness has been identified, and no physical cause has been shown to have any causal affect.

Regardless, even if a biological cause were to be found that still does not change the biological reality that a man's body cannot 'transition' to a woman's body. See >>8772735

So the prescribed treatment cannot successfully fulfill the fantasy of becoming the opposite sex. While surgeries may provide temporary relief from the emotional discomfort, in the long-term the suicide rate does not decrease post-'transition'.

Given that 'transitioning' does not achieve the stated goal of 'becoming the opposite sex', AND it is the mutilation of perfectly healthy genitals and a healthy endocrine system, it should be discouraged.

Encouraging self-harm, or inflicting harm on others in an attempt to achieve an impossible outcome is morally and ethically unjustified.

>>8771161
>Suicide Attempts
Attempts. A-T-T-E-M-P-T-S, you dumb motherfucker. You CANNOT confuse attempts with completed suicides for ANY population, they don't necessarily correlate as well as you'd think.

Our post-transition suicide RATE has been comparable to the general population since the 90s, and has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY from previous decades; those stats have been posted to this board eleven billion times in the past year alone and you have no excuse not to know that if you come here regularly. NONE.

>>8771408
>3. Give me actual proof that trannies who get their dick and balls mutilated are happier
Or you could actually stick around these threads rather than trolling? Just yesterday I posted like 5 studies to the effect that transition improves the mental health of trans people. WE POST THIS SHIT OVER AND OVER ALL DAY EVERY DAY. Just neck yourself.

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Settle down with this debate shit. Im trans and im happy. Fuck yourselves.

>>8774113
>Im trans and im happy.
HSTS or AGP?

I seen a trannys 'vagina' literally a flesh wound that you must shove things inside for 4 hours a day to stop it closing and healing itself. That must smell reallly fucking bad. Also the 'penis' it looks like a cob with all the corn taken off.
The fact anyway is that you're born a boy or girl and there is nothing you can do that will ever change that. You need a good, hard slap in the face for expecting everyone to play along with your demented make-believe daydream because that's all it is and will ever be.

>>8774113
it's literally /pol/ trolling and us counter-trolling, what would you have us do instead?

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>>8774144
HSTS
>>8774205
I dont give a fuck about the /leftypol/(lgbt) and the /pol/ war. You two fuckers need to realize that you both are wrong and need to admit that anime influenced y'all - Disappointments!

Pic is for /pol/ and /lgbt/.

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>>8774110
>Just yesterday I posted like 5 studies to the effect that transition improves the mental health of trans people

Not the poster you replied to. But what we do know is that there is a temporary positive change in mental health after self-harming (transitioning behaviours), just like with an anorexic vomiting and then seeing the scale go down.

But long-term suicide rates remain the same - particularly after SRS. Co-morbidity with other mental illness (like depressive and anxiety disorders) remains the same.

No one is denying that giving someone something that they want and that they think will make them happy will temporarily make them happy. But it is only ever temporary.

Encouraging self-mutilation through HRT or surgery is not beneficial.

>pic related. Ice pick lobotomies used to be a legitimate treatment for mental illness.

At the time it was argued that it made the patients more docile and less distressed. But it ultimately didn't improve their quality of life. Turns out that physically mutilating a body to treat emotional problems has always been a terrible idea.

>>8774211
>HSTS
Then what good is knowing you've found happiness for any of us?!

>>8774245
Ironic picture considering the alternative view to fulfilling trans desires is "treating" them with drugs and worse like ECT with the goal of "curing" it.

>>8774260

Those are not at all the only treatments. In fact, they're not even recommended treatments. Stop being dishonest.

>>8774267
What's your honest recommendation?

>>8774260

'fulfilling desires'

this is the problem with your fucked-up worldview.

>>8774078
>Given that 'transitioning' does not achieve the stated goal of 'becoming the opposite sex',

But that's not the stated goal. We all know that's unfortunately impossible with our current technology. The only goal of transition is to alleviate suffering by moving a transperson closer to their desired sex characteristics and place in society.

>three dollar Jebus Billy mays for hobos thread

MOOOOODS

>>8773986
>Everyone is saying it is their identity. That is the core of Gender Identity politics

No. Gender dysphoria is not an identity. Being a woman or a man is an identity. Gender dysphoria is the consequence that comes from having a gender identity that is incongruent to one's biological sex, but it is not an identity in and of itself.

>>8774270

There are many options to try.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy to address the underlying faulty thinking that results in the confusing of a fantasy with identity.

Helping someone understand what an identity actually is and how to form one that is consistent with your biological reality.

Teaching people strategies to build emotional resilience without engaging in self-harming behaviours that make the person's emotional problems worse in the long run.

Teaching people how to identify logical fallacies so they don't get sucked into gender ideology - which is not based in reality, but rather pretending someone's feelings are reality.

Switching to a ketogenic diet to reduce obsessive/loopy thinking and reduce emotional mood swings.

Developing long term goals and objectives that are outside an individual's body and ego - having a number of things to work toward in a number of spheres.

Helping people develop stronger relationships with people that don't reinforce delusions, fantasies and self-harming behaviours. Having emotional support from voices of reason rather than voices of 'support'.

Helping people find a sense of belonging to something other than the LGBT 'community' and active participation within that community - again to reduce amount of exposure to the ideology that fuels the obsessive thoughts.

Short-term, anti-psychotic drugs can reduce obsessive/loopy thinking.

Finding healthier ways for individuals to express their fantasies of becoming the opposite sex - from sexual role-play, to acting, to drag shows.

Giving people exposure in social situations where they feel uncomfortable and giving them strategies to navigate the social interactions without engaging in avoidance behaviours or wishing they were someone else.

There are a whole range of simple things that can help people understand and accept reality and work with it, rather than fight it by pursuing impossible fantasies.

>>8773986

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

>>8774323
Can you cite sources for any of these having proven, long-term benefits for treating gender dysphoria?

>>8774311

>The only goal of transition is to alleviate suffering by moving a transperson closer to their desired sex characteristics and place in society.

But that doesn't work. The suicide rates and co-morbidity with other mental illnesses remains the same in the long-term. No matter how hard you try, they will never be 'woman' enough or 'man' enough to satisfy their fantasy/desire.

As you say, it is impossible.

At best, it gives temporary relief and is akin to alleviating the suffering of an anorexic by moving them closer to their goal weight.

'Transitioning' treats the symptoms, not the cause.

>>8774335

Because the cause is biological>>8774326
And cant be cured with our current medical means veyond Lobotomy

I have to say I have never seen such a thorough BTFO of trannies in my fucking life lmao

>>8774340

>replying to your own thread

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

>With regard to genetic factors, a study by Hare reported that trans women have a longer androgen receptor gene than cis men, which is less effective at binding testosterone, potentially preventing complete masculinization of the brain (Prenatal androgen exposure or sensitivity, or lack thereof, is an often cited mechanism to explain observed brain-structure differences).[3]A study by Bentz found that trans men have aCYP17allele distribution like cis men and unlike cis women.[4]A twin study published in the International Journal of Transgenderism found that 33% of identical twin pairs were both trans, compared to only 2.6% of non-identical twins who were raised in the same family at the same time, but were not genetically identical.[5]

>>8774335
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Trans people who transitioned after 1989 (and therefore are more likely to have been young when starting, more likely have supporting families, and had access to more modern and effective transition methods) have no increased suicide rate compared to cis controls.

>>8774321

>having a gender identity
>not an identity

'Wanting to be a woman' vs. 'being a woman'

Desire is not identity. Everyone here is claiming that the 'desire' to be the opposite sex is a 'gender identity incompatible with biological sex' as you put it.

It is not an identity at all. It is a desire. A fantasy.

Biological sex IS your gender identity. That reality is what makes trannies uncomfortable and that discomfort is labelled as 'dysphoria'.

There is no 'gender identity' that differs from biological sex. Trannies identify as their biological sex and desire to be the opposite sex - with the intention that the 'transition' will allow them to self-identify and be externally identified as the opposite sex.

But dysphoria is not caused by a mismatch in identities, it is caused by a congruence of identities and is the discomfort arising from the fantasy not aligning with reality.

It's a subtle difference in understanding what is what, but the ideology mislabels the fantasy/desire as an identity and calls that dysphoria.

>>8774363
>having a gender identity
>not an identity

Of course gender identities are identities, I never said otherwise. But you claimed gender dysphoria is an identity, which it isn't.

>Biological sex IS your gender identity. That reality is what makes trannies uncomfortable and that discomfort is labelled as 'dysphoria'.

>There is no 'gender identity' that differs from biological sex. Trannies identify as their biological sex and desire to be the opposite sex - with the intention that the 'transition' will allow them to self-identify and be externally identified as the opposite sex.

>But dysphoria is not caused by a mismatch in identities, it is caused by a congruence of identities and is the discomfort arising from the fantasy not aligning with reality.

[citation needed]

>theres no studies
>gets linked a entire wikipediapage full if studies showing its a biological brainproblem
>ignores them

>>8774339

There is no proof of a biological cause. Correlation is not causation.

I've read that study and they didn't observe any difference in brain structure or function - but rather a difference in sound processing within the brain.

That is a LONG way from claiming that there is a biological cause or suggesting any kind of cure.

Also, if it is claimed to be a biological cause, according to the DSM it can no longer be classified as a mental disorder.

>>8774357

>linking to PLOS.

You can publish anything in PLOS if you pay them. The 'studies' are just opinion articles, not peer reviewed science.

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>>8774425

>>8774429
just gtfo you btfo'd tranny, this board belongs to /pol/ and only deals in objective facts now

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>>8774434

>>8774376

The claim being made all over this board, by gender ideology advocates and by trannies in this very thread is as follows:

>I have Gender Dysphoria
>Gender Dysphoria has a biological cause
>Gender dysphoria causes me to have a gender identity different from my biological sex.
>The only way to treat Gender Dysphoria is by transitioning
>Transitioning has positive mental health impacts

The last four claims are not true. Gender dysphoria is simply the labelling of the feelings and behaviours associated with the desire to be the opposite sex. Not from identifying as the opposite sex. You can read the DSM and the ICD-10 for that description.

There is no evidence to establish that gender dysphoria is a biological condition, and the DSM and ICD-10 make no such claims.

Gender Dysphoria doesn't 'cause' anything. It is not a disease or a physical ailment. It is the label applied to someones feelings and behaviours AFTER they have exhibited a desire to be the opposite sex.

There are many ways to treat body-image related disorders, none of them call for body mutilation or encouraging of self-harming behaviours, except (for some reason) Gender Dysphoria. This is recommended in the DSM despite there being no long-term, peer reviewed studies to demonstrate that it improves long-term outcomes - particularly regarding co-morbidity with other disorders, or suicide rates (both attempts and completions). In my opinion, this is abuse of vulnerable people.

Transitioning only appears to have short-term mental health benefits (like an anorexic purging and seeing the scales go down), but no long-term benefits. Plus, the serious consequences resulting from HRT and SRS are overlooked and ignored.

IMO it is a form of abuse to encourage transition because it is body mutilation. It does not happen with any other body-related disorder.

>>8774340

I'm surprised /pol/ hasn't come here, made screen shots and shit-posted more to be honest.

>>8774446
not an argument abomination

>>8774492

if you use /pol/ then your a faggot.

>>8774516
>lgbt using homophobic insults
now I've really seen it all. Enjoy your pozzed neghole, I'll been savoring my sweet supple aryan wife

>>8774488
>I have Gender Dysphoria
>Gender Dysphoria has a biological cause
>Gender dysphoria causes me to have a gender identity different from my biological sex.

No, gender dysphoria is caused by me having a gender identity that doesn't match my biological sex. It is not the cause of my identity.

>>The only way to treat Gender Dysphoria is by transitioning

Can you cite any evidence for a treatment that doesn't involve transition being effective in treating gender dysphoria?

>Gender dysphoria is simply the labelling of the feelings and behaviours associated with the desire to be the opposite sex. Not from identifying as the opposite sex. You can read the DSM and the ICD-10 for that description.

>There are many ways to treat body-image related disorders, none of them call for body mutilation or encouraging of self-harming behaviours, except (for some reason) Gender Dysphoria. This is recommended in the DSM despite there being no long-term, peer reviewed studies to demonstrate that it improves long-term outcomes - particularly regarding co-morbidity with other disorders, or suicide rates (both attempts and completions). In my opinion, this is abuse of vulnerable people.

Well is the DSM reliable or unreliable? You can't both claim their authority on a topic and then disregard it when it contrasts with your own viewpoint.

>There is no evidence to establish that gender dysphoria is a biological condition, and the DSM and ICD-10 make no such claims.

There are many studies showing a neurological difference between cis and trans people regardless of hormone usage,sexual orientation, or biological sex. The prevailing theory among researchers is that those neurological differences are caused by hormonal anomalies in the womb, whether the DSM ommits that information or not is irrelevant.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html

>>8774329
>having proven, long-term benefits
I like your question anon. Let's see if the bitter-repressor has an answer.

>>8774245
>But long-term suicide rates remain the same
No, they don't. The longest-running study to date refutes this: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

There was a post-transition seventh-year spike of suicides in the FIRST cohort, but not in the SECOND cohort (which ran for 14 years). There was no long-term spike in the second cohort at all.

>- particularly after SRS.
Wrong. The post-transition suicide rate of the second cohort (i.e. people who transitioned after 1989) was comparable to the general population. So was their overall mortality rates and their crime rates.

You. do. not. have. an. excuse. not. to. know. this.

THIS GETS POSTED EVERY FUCKING DAY. Multiple TIMES a day. Shoot yourself, you worthless motherfucker. Do you have ANY IDEA how many times I've posted this data since I came to this board? I have that study bookmarked, and I still don't even have to go to my bookmarks, I just type "sweden" into my address bar and it's the first result. That's how many times a week I post it. I should just keep it in an open tab. And still there is a line around the block of you stupid fuckers who think you know what you're talking about, coming here to open your fat mouths. The line never ends, it's just 7 billion people on the planet who are dumb as shit. Your stupidity stretches to the moon and beyond if we could line you all up to that point. You deserve a fucking lobotomy for opening your mouth without doing your own fucking research.

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>>8774594
>http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

see>>8774425
(You're going to want to use that excuse to wiggle out of your comments in a moment)

This is what your linked article says (cut and paste):

>Results

>The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

>Conclusions
>Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

You clearly haven't read the link you posted. It is entirely consistent with EVERYTHING that has been posted regarding increased suicide mortality, attempts, comorbidity with other psychiatric conditions.

It also clearly states the exact thing you were attempting to refute that SRS provides temporary relief from the dysphoria (emotional discomfort) but is not a long-term treatment and produces negative outcomes.

Thanks for proving my point. You might want to read the research before you mouth off at people who haven't read it.

>>8774323
>Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
There is ZERO evidence this has ever "cured" trans people.

>Helping someone understand what an identity actually is
I wish people like you had the slightest fucking idea what an identity is.

>without engaging in self-harming behaviours
Transition (unless it's actually out of self-hatred and not dysphoria) isn't self-harm; this would be fucking useless.

>Switching to a ketogenic diet
Plenty of trans people eat a keto diet, you dumb motherfucker.

>Helping people develop stronger relationships with people that don't reinforce delusions, fantasies and self-harming behaviours.
Gender dysphoria is none of those things, Internet Armchair Shrink.

>Helping people find a sense of belonging to something other than the LGBT 'community
Jesus fuck, my head is going to explode. What planet of cishet stupid memes did you come from where you think that trannies have no other identity or community?

>Short-term, anti-psychotic drugs can reduce obsessive/loopy thinking.
There is zero evidence this works on "gender dysphoria" that wasn't induced by an actual psychotic disorder like schizophrenia.

>Finding healthier ways for individuals to express their fantasies of becoming the opposite sex - from sexual role-play, to acting, to drag shows.
That's literally not healthier for actual trans people. That's repression.

>Giving people exposure in social situations where they feel uncomfortable and giving them strategies to navigate the social interactions without engaging in avoidance behaviours or wishing they were someone else.
Not all trans people have some kind of social phobia. I know I don't.

>There are a whole range of simple things that can help people understand and accept reality and work with it, rather than fight it by pursuing impossible fantasies.
kys you useless sperg

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>>8774638
>claims I didn't read the study
>didn't read the study
>didn't read my post either, since I literally explained the results of the two cohorts differing
FYI, the lead author has repeatedly had to explain this shit in public interviews because you stupid anti-trans shits have willfully misinterpreted her works so much.

K I L L Y O U R S E L F

>>8774661

Now go and read the results and conclusions again and tell us again how the study 'proved' that long-term suicide rates are comparable to the general population.

You're relying on cherry-picked data from just one study, and the results and conclusions from that exact study contradict your claim.

Even the people that conducted the study disagree with you.

>>8771303

>"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

>be awesome christian
>some evil guy shoots you in the dick
>cant come into heaven anymore

You people are fucking hilarious. Keep fighting.

dumbasses

>>8773986
>Everyone is saying it is their identity. That is the core of Gender Identity politics
Gender identity is a CONSEQUENCE of having gender dysphoria. I'm sure trans people are willing to give up their gender identity once cis people do the same.

>The belief that one can change their biological sex
That belief is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how a mtf understands biological sex, the most effective treatment for their dysphoria is still cross-sex HRT.

>It is just 'feelings'
Yes, the feeling of pain that is referred to as dysphoria. That's the feeling that defines the mental disorder.

>Again, it is ideology based only on subjective 'feelings', not on objective measurements.
How do you propose we objectively measure gender, then?

>in which case it would not be a mental illness, but a physical illness.
By YOUR definitions, gender dysphoria would constitute a physical illness, not a mental one. But generally mental illness refers to any disorder predominantly affecting the mind, REGARDLESS of its origin.

>As mentioned in earlier posts you are not 'successfully living your life' if you constantly engaged in increasingly more extreme self-harm behaviours or if you are dead.
Calling it "self-harm" is an emotional reaction. I'm still waiting to see ANY evidence that you know of some treatment that's more effective than HRT. Seems to me that you're so ideologically opposed to gender transition that you would rather see trans people suffer than find relief from dysphoria through transition.

>>8774046
>The dysphoria (the feelings) is the symptom, not the cause. Just like with anorexics, the bad feelings go away with self-harming behaviours, but the underlying faulty thinking remains - so the feelings come back.
But the feelings exist even without "self-harm". So how do you propose that trans people get rid of the feeling?

>>8774046
>and the reality that it is impossible to become the opposite sex.
You keep saying this, while ignoring the fact that it is possible to become MORE LIKE the opposite sex, and that doing so tends to relieve gender dysphoria.

>This is logically fallacious. The fantasy never goes away even with transitioning. You're advocating pursuing the fantasy in order to treat the dysphoria. But that's not treating the dysphoria or the fantasy. It is making both of them worse.
The "fantasy" is hardwired in the brain, it won't go away no matter what you do. Gender transition isn't supposed to eliminate the fantasy - if it did, then one's dysphoria would flare up again and they'd have to transition back to being male. What it does is eliminate the conflict. I know, I know, in a purely academic sense it seems we should eliminate the "fantasy". But there is no way to reliably do that. So we do what we can in allowing people to live with the gender dysphoria.

>The dysphoria (discomfort) does go away with recognition that the fantasy will never be reality AND finding ways to successfully live the biological reality
Which is what transition DOES. The biological reality is that one is anatomically male, but their brain won't function properly without female hormone levels. So they do HRT, which serves to directly attack the biological causes of the disconnect, as opposed to some kind of abstract spiritual stuff.

>finding healthy ways (through performance, or sex) to express the fantasy.
Again, that's not sufficient, to only express their real gender part-time. They need to live full-time as their gender, just like cis people do.

>>8774245
>But long-term suicide rates remain the same - particularly after SRS.
Not for those who transitioned in recent years.

>Encouraging self-mutilation through HRT or surgery is not beneficial.
Except HRT is objectively the most effective treatment for gender dysphoria. Literally your whole argument is repeating the same lies over and over desperately hoping that they'll suddenly come true.

>>pic related. Ice pick lobotomies used to be a legitimate treatment for mental illness.
>At the time it was argued that it made the patients more docile and less distressed. But it ultimately didn't improve their quality of life. Turns out that physically mutilating a body to treat emotional problems has always been a terrible idea.
They were stopped because NEW DISCOVERIES were made and NEW ALTERNATIVES became available. Literally all you're offering is a rehash of Dark Age religious "medicine". If you really think it's a tragedy that trans people have no better treatment than HRT, why don't you support further research into brain development so that an actual better treatment might be available by the time of your grandchildren? All you're doing right now is encouraging regression to theories that make lobotomies look sophisticated.

>>8774267
The only seriously recommended treatment for gender dysphoria is HRT and transition. Even those few doctors who insist that those treatments are universally horrible are unable to actually name a better alternative.

>>8774302
Yes, because the desire to live without dysphoria is so unreasonable.

>>8776495
>Gender identity is a CONSEQUENCE of having gender dysphoria.
[citation needed]

>>8774335
>'Transitioning' treats the symptoms, not the cause.
I don't think anyone's really denying that. But most are willing to accept the reality that there currently is no viable way to treat the cause, and that treating the symptoms is the best we're able to do. It would be great if we could treat the cause as well, but that likely won't be achievable without further research into the biological workings of the brain. Your quasi-spiritual popsci understanding of neuroplasticity does not seem likely to lead to superior treatment, and certainly isn't actionable right now as an immediate treatment for gender dysphoria.

>>8774340
It's literally just one person repeating over and over that if trans people just "accepted their biological sex" then dysphoria would go away.

>>8774363
>But dysphoria is not caused by a mismatch in identities, it is caused by a congruence of identities and is the discomfort arising from the fantasy not aligning with reality.
You're focusing too much on the presence and form of the fantasy, and not its origin. Remember, to effectively treat a disordered condition you have to stop it at the source.

>>8774423
>That is a LONG way from claiming that there is a biological cause
Sure, but it's still stronger than the evidence that dysphoria can be eliminated by telling trans people to "man up".

>Also, if it is claimed to be a biological cause, according to the DSM it can no longer be classified as a mental disorder.
Could you show where exactly in the DSM it claims that something cannot be a mental disorder if it's biological in origin?

>>8774434
>/pol/
>objective facts
wew lad

>>8774488
So why then do medical professionals usually suggest treating gender dysphoria with HRT and gender transition? You're basically claiming that the vast majority of doctors are either malicious or stupid. And again, where's the actual evidence that treating gender dysphoria like any other body-image disorder would lead to better outcomes? I'm seeing a lot of speculation and no solid data.

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>>8774492

>>8774638
Yeah, that says that trans people after transitioning are still worse off than the GENERAL POPULATION. You know, people who never had gender dysphoria to begin with. And it uses these findings to call for "improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment", not for telling people to "man up" and saying it's their own fault that they're still dysphoric and suicidal.

>>8774686
>Even the people that conducted the study disagree with you.
No, the main author literally told people like you to stop misinterpreting it to support the "transitioning hurts trans people" narrative.

>>8776584
Thank you for defending reason. That fucking shit posting retard could do a lot of damage if people like weren't here.

>>8776548
A trans woman chooses to label herself as a woman because living as a man is painful for her (dysphoria) and living as a woman is not.

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Do trans women post these threads to argue against other trans women?

>>8776624
I occasionally false flag as a /pol/fag when I see one of these threads going on

>>8770784
>I went to the imgur link posted there just to see

hell no, man! what the fuck, absolutely disgusting

>>8776607
The fact in the matter is that the study, not only supported our (our meaning sane people) POVs, but discouraged genital mutilation.

Now if you can't get it through your thick mentally deranged tranny skull that cutting your dick off wont help you then you can't be helped, and shouldn't be helped.

>>8776632
Why?

>>8771303
dur hur literalism

literally like reading a stop sign as if it is telling you drop everything and end your life

>>8776740
If you're so concerned about genital mutilation what have you ever done against circumcision?

>>8776743
The ancient, forbidden technique of agreeing while sounding like an idiot to induce cognitive dissonance. Unfortunately this guy seems impervious

>>8776756

Circumcision doesn't lead to 50% of the populace commiting suicide.

Cutting your dick and balls off does.

It's very simple.

Also, the one tranny who keeps going on about a treatment with a 50% suicide rate being an effective treatment, kill yourself.

>>8776740
No, the study said that improved care in other areas should occur alongside with what you call "genital mutilation".

>>8776770
>Circumcision doesn't lead to 50% of the populace commiting suicide.
It's closer to 40%, and it's the suicide ATTEMPT rate, not the actual suicide rate. Furthermore, that rate came from statistics on the trans community overall, NOT specifically those who had SRS. In fact, according to the study which you foolishly think supports your position, undergoing the surgery in recent years makes you LESS suicidal.

>>8776772

So mutiliating yourself is no longer mutilation because you now have an open wound that resembles a vagina?

Wow you really convinced me, go try it, see how fun it is to "be a real woman".

Except you have no ovaries.

Except you need pills to remain feminine.

Except you have male bone structure.

Except you're delusional and would have to lie to men, if you are even close to passable, and pretend you're a woman otherwise they won't accept you.

>>8776781
>the study which you foolishly think supports your position, undergoing the surgery in recent years makes you LESS suicidal.

And please reference this with facts and sources instead of speaking out of your dickless ass.

>>8776770
>defends pointless mutilation performed on millions of unconsenting babies
>with hundreds of known casualties
>attacks elective surgery chosen by a very small number of people for their own reasons
Keep it classy /pol/.

>>8776785
>So mutiliating yourself is no longer mutilation because you now have an open wound that resembles a vagina?
Whether it is "mutilation" or not is irrelevant to the discussion. We're discussing how effective it is on a treatment, not what emotionally-charged words we can use to refer to it.

>Except you have no ovaries.
A mtf would rather be a woman without ovaries, than a man without ovaries.

>Except you need pills to remain feminine.
A mtf would rather take pills to remain feminine than to become masculine.

>Except you have male bone structure.
Again, better to be a woman with male bone structure than a man with male bone structure.

>Except you're delusional and would have to lie to men, if you are even close to passable, and pretend you're a woman otherwise they won't accept you.
Not true. Some men willingly and knowingly date trans woman. And not all trans women are attracted to men, either.

You see, what you need to understand, is that this isn't about you. Trans women don't take hormones and get surgery to convince people like you that they have some kind of legitimacy in being "real women". Because it's obvious that people like you will never be convinced. Even if medicine advanced to the point of making trans women physically indistinguishable from cis woman, and eliminating their dependence on external hormone treatments, you'd just shift to saying they're not "real women" because of the invisible chromosomes they have. People transition because it's what they want for their body, not to justify themselves to people like you.

>>8776789
> In line with the increased mortality from suicide, sex-reassigned individuals were also at a higher risk for suicide attempts, though this was not statistically significant for the time period 1989–2003.
From the Swedish study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

>>8776803
>We're discussing how effective it is on a treatment

1. It is not the most effective treatment, you've only convinced yourself that because of a thing called confirmation bias, you are on a /lgbt/ sub, a massive echo chamber surrounded by faggots who agree with you, go into the real world and the tide would shift towards my side.

2. The most effective treatment would be therapy, real therapy, not hormone therapy, with a therapist that would calmly tell them what they are experiencing is not natural, and should be dealt with not by engaging in the delusion, but by abstaining from it.

3. Yes, that means suppressing your sick desires, because that's all they are, desires, and if you don't have the discipline to act like the gender God gave you, then you absolutely deserve your fate.

Now give me references towards this therapy and the suicide rate please, since cutting your dick off is so much better.

>A mtf would rather be a woman without ovaries, than a man without ovaries.

Newsflash, you are still a man, stop feeding your delusion.

>A mtf would rather take pills to remain feminine than to become masculine.

Your entire argument is based on feelings, feelings are not truth and facts, feelings are feelings, and feelings are what causes most of our suffering. Humans were not made to act on whims, and I am sorry you've been brought up in such a way that allows this degeneracy.


>Not true. Some men willingly and knowingly date trans woman. And not all trans women are attracted to men, either.

You better stick to other trans women then, because 99% of men will see you as a fetish, because truly, that is what you are, a fetish taken too far.

>not to justify themselves to people like you.

This is bullshit and you know it. The entire reason you are arguing with me is because I've invaded your bubble of hypocrisy and bullshit, so you sit here justifying yourself to me.

If you truly don't care, walk away, be the bigger man, or "woman".

>>8776808
>Who said I was defending them?
You in your post >>8776770

>>8776812
You did read what it said?

They are at a higher risk, and the second part was not saying the rate was insignificant, but at that period in time there were not enough cases for it to be STATISTICALLY significant.

You are purposely interpreting it wrong to support your view.

>>8776820
All it is is running in circles with you, you purposely, (or maybe you're just stupid) forget all of my previous points and then call them out again, telling me to re-explain them.

I've already told you, the problem is not the mutilation itself, it's the suicide that comes because of that mutilation.

And according to me wanting to stop transgenders from committing suicide, unlike you, I'm the biggest tranny lover here.

So who here is really right? Also remember children, feelings don't mean something is wrong.

>>8776797
>implying it's a poltard and not a terf
no self-respecting pol would miss a chance to attack da joos
a feminist would instinctively side against males

>>8776830
>It is not the most effective treatment
No one has yet presented credible evidence of that. You expect me to take your word for it, when you have done nothing to establish your credentials. Never mind that everything you say goes against the last fifty years of medical science.

>you are on a /lgbt/ sub, a massive echo chamber surrounded by faggots who agree with you, go into the real world and the tide would shift towards my side.
I don't deny that /lgbt/ is biased, but most people in the real world don't buy into the idea that all mental illness is caused by unhealthy thought patterns either.

>2. The most effective treatment would be therapy, real therapy, not hormone therapy, with a therapist that would calmly tell them what they are experiencing is not natural, and should be dealt with not by engaging in the delusion, but by abstaining from it.
Again, where's the evidence? Where's the clinical trials, the case studies, the statistics, the data? You say it is true because you WANT it to be true - which is ironically the very same psychological complex you accuse trans people of. The complexity of reality makes you feel weak and powerless, and you desire to comfort yourself by repeating to yourself that everything has a simple answer. That can become a very dangerous attitude if you take it far enough. As unpleasant as it is, gender dysphoria won't just go away if you force people to abstain from expressing their gender, no matter how many comforting words you tell them. If that were true, then gender WOULD be nothing more than a social construct, and it would be possible to raise boys as girls, or vice versa, with no health issues.

>>8776808
>Who said I was defending them?
>>8776843
>the problem is not the mutilation itself

>>8776876
>it would be possible to raise boys as girls, or vice versa, with no health issues.

That goes against the very nature of how God created man, therefore it is not true, cannot be true, and never will be true.

You and yours will meet one fate, death in the lake of burning fire.

>>8776876
>you desire to comfort yourself by repeating to yourself that everything has a simple answer.

I don't desire to comfort myself at all, if I wanted to be comfortable I wouldn't be arguing with gay-tranny-atheists on a /lgbt/ board.

I have thoroughly debunked all of your arguments, yet you continually bring up old arguments and attack me with it, just as a shill would.

The burden of proof is on you, as you do not coincide with nature.

I do not need proof that cutting off your dick is bad, you need proof that cutting off your dick is good.

Now if you call that dismissive, then you truly are too deranged to see the truth, and arguing with you is for moot.

>>8776830
>3. Yes, that means suppressing your sick desires, because that's all they are, desires, and if you don't have the discipline to act like the gender God gave you, then you absolutely deserve your fate.
I'd much rather see people take responsibility for their own fate, use the tools that God gave them, then let people like you decide it for them. There is nothing virtuous about suffering. To choose to suffer when one has the ability not to is an insult to the gifts which God and nature have given us.

>Now give me references towards this therapy and the suicide rate please, since cutting your dick off is so much better.
Again, the Swedish study that you keep choosing to forget. It, and various other sources, support the 40% suicide attempt rate figure. However, it notes that for those who transitioned in recent years are about as likely to attempt suicide as the general population. Which strongly implies that transition helps.

>Newsflash, you are still a man, stop feeding your delusion.
Nonetheless, a mtf would rather be a man with feminine traits than one without.

>Your entire argument is based on feelings, feelings are not truth and facts, feelings are feelings, and feelings are what causes most of our suffering. Humans were not made to act on whims, and I am sorry you've been brought up in such a way that allows this degeneracy.
So you think we should abandon our feelings? Our feelings allow us to suffer, but they also allow us to experience pleasure. Do you really think it would be fulfilling to live as nothing more than a cog in a machine, indifferent to everything around you, devoting a lifetime of labor towards some objective which you are not even aware of? That sounds horrifying to me.

>The entire reason you are arguing with me is because I've invaded your bubble of hypocrisy and bullshit, so you sit here justifying yourself to me.
Because I hope that even if I cannot help you understand, that I may help others to understand.

>>8776830
>If you truly don't care, walk away, be the bigger man, or "woman".
So you think it is virtuous to ignore those who do not agree with you? Why then, do you continue this discussion?

>>8776909
because I'm deebly goncerned about the wellbeing of trannies of coursh :^)

>>8776789
From the williams study you used

" In regard to timing of suicide attempts and gender transition, some surveys and clinical studies have found that transgender people are at an elevated risk for suicide attempt during gender transition, while rates of suicide attempts decrease after gender transition (Whittle et al., 2007;DeCuypere et al., 2006; Transgender Equality Network Ireland, 2012"

Specifically pay attention to this part
"rates of suicide attempts decrease after gender transition"

come on now, it's in the study itself

>>8776905
>To choose to suffer when one has the ability not to is an insult to the gifts which God and nature have given us.

The life of a Christian is and was always meant to be persecution and suffering, of course, to know this requires having read the Bible, and being a tranny I am betting you have not, and if suffering seems so bad to you, why do you willingly want to suffer by cutting your genitals off?

>However, it notes that for those who transitioned in recent years are about as likely to attempt suicide as the general population

This is bullshit and you know it, the suicide rate was 50%, and the general population suicide rate is 4%, and based on everything that has been read in the study, the rates increased after they got the surgery, stop lying to me and yourself.

>Nonetheless, a mtf would rather be a man with feminine traits than one without.

Then you deserve your wicked fate.

>So you think we should abandon our feelings?

You are generalizing and exaggerating everything I say, since you have no actual argument you pick what I say and make it ridiculous.

Everyone has feelings, but they must be controlled, if you let feelings control you then you are likely to meet the fate of all these other trannies, suicide.

Answer me this, how can you care so much about this, yet support a method that leads to a mass of your people killing themselves? Where is your morality in that?

>that I may help others to understand.

You will never have me understand because I am not a puppet on strings to be fed bullshit and believe it. The puppet media is spoonfeeding you this bullshit and you believe it, I only warn you about the wages of the sins you are committing.

>So you think it is virtuous to ignore those who do not agree with you? Why then, do you continue this discussion?

Have I said that? No I haven't. I am saying, if you do not care about my opinion, why do you continue to argue with me?

>>8776837
"Statistically significant" is a specific term, it means a difference in the gathered data that can not reasonably be caused by sampling error. A larger sample size might offer clarification, but the important thing is that an elevated suicide rate was apparent in the post-op population in general, but not in those that transitioned in recent years. Which does point to a significant difference between the two groups.

>>8776843
>I've already told you, the problem is not the mutilation itself, it's the suicide that comes because of that mutilation.
But the suicide does not come because of the "mutilation", it's due to the dysphoria.

>And according to me wanting to stop transgenders from committing suicide, unlike you, I'm the biggest tranny lover here.
That may be your goal, but I consider your methods of achieving that goal to be misguided at best. It's my goal as well, so it's not like you have any high ground over me in that area.

>>8776898
>That goes against the very nature of how God created man, therefore it is not true, cannot be true, and never will be true.
So then your premise is unfalsifiable; because your beliefs are not based in observable reality, there can be no evidence that will convince you they are wrong. Which in turn means that you have no rational justification in holding that belief.

>The burden of proof is on you, as you do not coincide with nature.
Nature does not mean "how I wish things were." Nature is how things are. It's messy and chaotic. Nature has decided that certain people have flaws, and as humans with free will, the only rational response is to seek to overcome those flaws to the best of our ability.

There's no way this person got better. Pretty sure being forced to shove a rod into a gaping wound to prevent it from closing is just as much of a reminder as seeing your dick that you'll never be a real woman. Except not sex and masturbation don't even feel good.

>>8776941
Pretty much everything falls under what nature accepts

Nature isn't an entity. It's a collection of entities, and includes everything they do

If a human decides that they don't like their body and alters it however they see fit, this fits well within the boundaries of nature. It's in our nature, therefor it is nature

>>8776930
>The life of a Christian is and was always meant to be persecution and suffering, of course, to know this requires having read the Bible, and being a tranny I am betting you have not, and if suffering seems so bad to you, why do you willingly want to suffer by cutting your genitals off?
Because to a trans person, losing their genitals is not suffering. I know this is difficult, but at least try to consider things from the perspective of a trans person. You may think they're weird or incomprehensible, but it's pretty much common knowledge that trans people are disgusted by their genitals and find them to be a source of suffering. Obviously, a non-trans person like you would likely find the loss of your genitals to be a form of suffering, but trans people aren't saying EVERYONE should cut their genitals off, or even all trans people for that matter. They're specifically opposed to the "one-size-fits-all" mentality of pleasure and pain, because they KNOW the vast majority of people are different from them.

>This is bullshit and you know it, the suicide rate was 50%
No, the usual figure cited is 40%, and that's the suicide ATTEMPT rate.

>the rates increased after they got the surgery
If you're talking about the Swedish study, read it again. It doesn't say that. It only says that it's higher than those who were never trans to begin with. It's like saying that if firefighters had only a 90% success rate in preventing houses from burning down (compared to 100% for houses that never caught on fire in the first place), that we'd be better off without firefighters.

>Then you deserve your wicked fate.
I deserve no more or less than the fate I am able to attain for myself. But the idea that someone "deserves" to suffer for being a biological male who is feminine seems absurd to me. In my mind, the only people who truly "deserve" to suffer are those who choose to inflict suffering on others.

>>8776941
>Nature does not mean "how I wish things were." Nature is how things are. It's messy and chaotic.

Nature is how God created it. People are born man and woman, men with penises, woman with vaginas.

Cutting off your penis and pretending you have a vagina is not natural, it is unnatural.

>So then your premise is unfalsifiable; because your beliefs are not based in observable reality, there can be no evidence that will convince you they are wrong. Which in turn means that you have no rational justification in holding that belief.

Observable reality is not the only reality mate. I understand you are an atheist, and so Christian arguments will only make me seem more "ridiculous". I ask you once more, consider the truth or perish through your own machinations.


>It's my goal as well, so it's not like you have any high ground over me in that area.

I'd wager to say I have very much high ground over you, as I push for methods that don't cause suicide, and you do, on a wide scale.

You say my method is ineffective, then how do you explain that AFTER a transgender engages in sex reassignment surgery the suicide and depression rates increase?

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."

http://www.jahonline.org/pb/assets/raw/Health%20Advance/journals/jah/feature.pdf

From the journal of adolescent health.

Now please, continue with your strawmans and feeling based arguments, even though every point you have brought up I have refuted.

>>8776991
>You say my method is ineffective, then how do you explain that AFTER a transgender engages in sex reassignment surgery the suicide and depression rates increase?

>"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."


I think we've been over this too many times now. you're just illiterate

>>8776991

that quote doesn't appear in your cited source

>>8776997

Another strawman, how great.

You continually tell me that you support it because it's the best known method, yet simply abstaining from sex reassigment surgery lowers the risk of mortality.

>>8776999

Indeed it does, perhaps you should read it instead of ctrl + f

>>8776930
>Everyone has feelings, but they must be controlled, if you let feelings control you then you are likely to meet the fate of all these other trannies, suicide.
Except as I've been trying to explain to you all along, you can't just "opt out" of dysphoria. It's there whether you want it or not, and let's be honest here, nobody WANTS to be dysphoric. One can address their dysphoria in a way that works for them, or in a way that doesn't; that's their choice. But people are unlikely to be served well by making the choice on the basis of whether it will please others, rather than their own rational analysis of what will work best for themselves.

>You will never have me understand because I am not a puppet on strings to be fed bullshit and believe it. The puppet media is spoonfeeding you this bullshit and you believe it, I only warn you about the wages of the sins you are committing.
Where do you get your information from, then? How can you be sure that what you believe is correct and right? How can you be sure that you are not unknowingly being made to serve some insidious agenda?

>Have I said that? No I haven't. I am saying, if you do not care about my opinion, why do you continue to argue with me?
Do you mean to say that you care about our opinions?

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1446468/pdf/11392934.pdf

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

"T-these articles are biased and don't count!"

C'mon trannies try harder.

>>8777010
>INCREASES AFTER
>GENERAL POPULATION

YOU STUPID MOTHER FUCKER

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>>8777021
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."

Please read it again tranny. The rates increase after sexual reassignment surgery, as it clearly states.

It must suck getting so BTFO

I hope you find the Faith in Christ you need to pull yourself out of this.

>>8777028
>GENERAL POPULATION

>>8777018
did you actually read through any of those

the first shows that if you have HIV, you're more likely to kill yourself

the second says
" In regard to timing of suicide attempts and gender transition, some surveys and clinical studies have found that transgender people are at an elevated risk for suicide attempt during gender transition, while rates of suicide attempts decrease after gender transition (Whittle et al., 2007;DeCuypere et al., 2006; Transgender Equality Network Ireland, 2012"

Specifically pay attention to this part
"rates of suicide attempts decrease after gender transition"

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"Finally, prior studies have suggested that lack of
disclosure and attempts to conceal sexual orientation
contributes to lower levels of mental health for lesbian,
gay and bisexual individuals (Meyer, 2003; Pachankis,
2007; Hatzenbuehler, 2009; Schrimshaw, Siegel,
Downing & Parsons, 2013). Explanatory mechanisms
that have been posited include the stress of constant
vigilance and concern about being “outed,” internalized
homophobia, and loss of potential emotional support
from others. Our findings suggest that non-disclosure
may function differently for transgender and gender
non-conforming people. As we have noted, one possible
explanation is that limiting disclosure of transgender or
gender non-conforming status reduces the likelihood
of experiencing bias-related rejection, discrimination,
victimization, and violence, which in turn, reduces
the likelihood suicidal behavior. This appears to be an
additional important area for future research."

"while rates of suicide attempts decrease
after gender transition (Whittle et al., 2007; DeCuypere
et al., 2006; Transgender Equality Network Ireland, 2012).
Further research is clearly needed on the occurrence of all
aspects of self-harm behavior, including suicidal ideation,
suicide attempts and non-suicidal self-injury, in relation to
gender transition and barriers to transition. Such research
would provide better insight into the factors that underlie
suicidal thinking and behavior among transgender people,
especially those who want to transition from one gender
to another, and could serve as the basis for designing
better interventions and suicide prevention services for this
population."


Boy you trannys sure do love cherrypicking don't ya?

It's a damn shame everything you've said is false. Not even your lies can stand up to the proof now.

Get BTFO

>>8776956
Most trans people who get SRS have to go through it at some point, and they apparently deal with it well enough that only a few end up regretting surgically transitioning.

>>8776991
>Nature is how God created it. People are born man and woman, men with penises, woman with vaginas.
So what about the people who are born with disabilities making them unable to walk? Is it sinful for them to seek to overcome their disability through the use of things like wheelchairs? Because clearly if God wanted them to be able to walk, He would have ensured that they were born without such disabilities.

>>8777049
the first implies that the suicide rate is because society is shitty
"As we have noted, one possible
explanation is that limiting disclosure of transgender or
gender non-conforming status reduces the likelihood
of experiencing bias-related rejection, discrimination,
victimization, and violence, which in turn, reduces
the likelihood suicidal behavior. This appears to be an
additional important area for future research.""

the second specifically states suicide rates decrease after transition

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>>8777055

>this tranny is still trying to justify his position when he got BTFO

>>8777056
Yeah, dumb frogposter can't fucking read.

>>8776991
>Observable reality is not the only reality mate. I understand you are an atheist, and so Christian arguments will only make me seem more "ridiculous". I ask you once more, consider the truth or perish through your own machinations.
I have two distinct criticisms of the religious line of arguments. First, is that there is no transferable evidence of their truth, it isn't possible for example to demonstrate to a non-believer that the Bible is the literal word of God. Indeed, within Christianity and without there are many differences of belief, and without some standard of evidence that all are willing to accept there is not any way to resolve these differences. Secondly, if God exists as the Bible describes Him, it would seem unethical to follow Him. If I choose to express an atypical gender identity, I am not harming anyone by doing so. Yet apparently, your God thinks I deserve to suffer for this. I would not consider it ethical for a government to impose punishments me on doing so, so why should God have a right to? God may be more powerful than mankind, but that does not mean He is outside our ethical framework. Punishing me for a harmless sin is no more ethical than Comrade Stalin gulaging me for a harmless "crime". And even the idea that God is aware of some deeper plan that we are incapable of understanding isn't really satisfactory - because isn't that what the government tells us, that it needs to keep secrets from us, spy on us, deny us our rights, that we may not have the knowledge to agree with these things but the government must do these things for the "common good"? And few people trust the government when they say such things, so why should we trust a God who has so little in common with us, that we can't even understand their existence? God may well have our best interests in mind, but He very well may not, we simply don't have the ability to know.

>>8777059
they never can

there's like 2, maybe 3 studies they all use to try and prove their point, and the studies pretty much always contradict what they're saying, or are simply off topic.

>>8776991
And a particular religious belief may turn out to be correct, but we have no way of knowing. In the absence of such information, I prefer to go by the things that ARE observable and knowable, since the rest is essentially outside of our control. I have no problem with people practicing a religious faith, but I think it should be regarded as a personal matter. If God decided to speak to you, it's something between you and Him, not something that should be imposed on the entire human race.

>
You say my method is ineffective, then how do you explain that AFTER a transgender engages in sex reassignment surgery the suicide and depression rates increase?
>"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."
Read the sentence carefully. It only compares post-op transsexuals to the general population (who are mostly non-trans people). That statement doesn't include any reference to the suicide rates of pre-op trans people, so it doesn't say anything about whether the operation increases or reduces the suicide rate.

>>8777010
>yet simply abstaining from sex reassigment surgery lowers the risk of mortality.
No, it doesn't. Classic example of confusing correlation and causation. People who don't get the operation are less likely to commit suicide, because they don't have dysphoria in the first place. The intent of the surgery is to reduce dysphoria and thereby lower the suicide rate. Therefore, the only clear-cut statistical way to judge its effectiveness is to compare dysphoric people who don't have the surgery to dysphoric people who do. Which that study unfortunately does not provide, as it only compares non-trans people to post-op transsexuals, rather than comparing post-op to non-op transsexuals.

>>8777028
"General population" means non-trans.

Think of it this way: a study interviews two groups, one being the general population (i.e. a random sample of basically everyone) and the other being people who have just left the emergency room. And it finds that the second group is far more likely to have had a major injury in the last few months. Does that mean that the second group could have avoided their injuries by simply choosing not to go to the emergency room?

>>8777049
Are you being an ironic frogposter or something? Because both of those support the trans perspective. The first says that being closeted causes mental health problems for LGBT people, the second admits that trans people as a group are at particular risk for self-harm (which is no secret), but says that gender transition does reduce suicide attempts.

>>8777058
I'm cis. And I'm still waiting for an answer on the disability question.

>>8776785
>you aren't a real woman because you need to take medication to look like one

If I had to take medication to not die, then am I really alive by this logic?

>>8777120
>And I'm still waiting for an answer
t. has avoided every question and counterpoint in the thread

>>8777141
Which ones have I avoided? And regardless of what I have done in this thread, or whether you choose to answer or not, the inconsistency still remains. If God/nature doesn't make mistakes in creating us, and it is a sin to go against the will of God, how can be the use of wheelchairs by people disabled from birth be justified under religious morality? I'm not seeing a clear way out of this one.

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>>8777141
I've provided over 50 replies shill tyvm.

>>8777120

This has nothing to do with transgenders, and is off-topic.

Feels real good to continuously BTFO you trannies.

Make sure to put a dildo in that open would you call a vagina so it doesn't heal hahahaah

>>8777241
>This has nothing to do with transgenders, and is off-topic.
Gender dysphoria can be classified as a disability. Why should treating this one disability be "against nature" when others are okay?

>Make sure to put a dildo in that open would you call a vagina so it doesn't heal hahahaah
I did say I was cis, you know.

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>>8771408
here's a list of things that religion believes
>soul
>afterlife
>miracles
>destiny
>faith

the only way to believe in them is to have faith, no logic allows you to believe in things you cant see or prove
you will never convince someone god exists if they dont have faith
so you choose to ignore logic in order to gain faith
religion is a choice

>Reddit spacing
>Reddit image

>>8781630
>muh reddit boogeyman

OP is a psyop