Socialization

>>8743050
A lot of men are bred to be "outsiders" to emotion, and specifically female emotion since they're supposed to be socialized into the "pursuit" of women rather than an actual associate. Hence why you see transbians here and others who identified closely with that paradigm (although it's not inherent to being a straight male) having such a low e-iq relationship with cis lesbians.

This thread is going to be full of bullshit, but I'll try to offer an honest answer.

When it comes to emotions, men aren't allowed to be sad. Even as infants people will try to calm down (read: stop) boys from crying as soon as possible. Girls are allowed to cry more. This continues into elementary school and for the rest of your life as long as people see you as male or female regardless of who you are inside. The end result is that men, as adults and young adults, "skip over" sadness when they're tired or frustrated or something bad happens. Instead they're only "allowed" to be mad, so that's the emotion they show more often.
If not for socialization we'd show sadness the same amount, you can see proof of that fact in other societies where sadness isn't seen as a bad thing for guys.

>>8743076
What is female emotion?

>>8743116
Sorry, meant to say "the roots of other's emotions". I said "female emotion" because of how much a lot of brainwashed men love to brag about how they "just don't get women" because they've been coached just to be an accessory to them.

>>8743079
>men aren't allowed to be sad

1950 called, it wants it's memes back

>>8743125
>because they've been coached just to be an accessory to them.
How are they coached this way?

>>8743136
By evil librul feminazi TERFs, apparently

>>8743127
>>8743149
Contribute something instead of shitposting for a change.

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>>8743226
>Ad hominem

Men can be sad.
Deal with it.

>>8743234
They can be sad if they're willing to get their ass beat in for being a faggot sissy who cries in adulthood.

Or they can do it in the privacy of their rooms. That's the option most men on 4chan take.

Oh, but men can be sad, you say. Seems they're all too unwilling to express it. I wonder why...

>>8743255
You must be from Kentucky.
I'm sorry.

>>8743266
I'm from everywhere. You go to your local dive and start the waterworks, see how much respect you get.

>>8743234
>Deal with it.
When was the lats time you said this to a woman?

>>8743268
PS: None of you can. You spend all your time crying inside stuck on this shithole all day. You're -afraid- to cry outside, even. And you mean to tell me it's somehow socially acceptable now?

Face it, nobody tolerates an emotionally weak man. A tear after your wife's died is acceptable, all else fuck off.

>>8743287
So what? Taking pride in weakness is stupid.

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>>8743050
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7vGnWHUx80
internalized, externalized, we all need assistance during our metamorphosis

>>8743278
Never, obviously, male TERFs who say women have it so awful are only ever shits to men.

>>8743050
Girls are programmed to see others as equals. Men are always in competition. Men, even if it isn't physically, need to be 'strong'. An emotional rock. Women are better with empathy.

>>8745082
"So what?" You retreat to after you've got nothing else to say, spitting out another masculinized bravado spiel you don't even believe in yourself.

Continue crying alone and telling yourself it's okay because nobody else can see you.

>>8746673
>Girls are programmed

It doesn't have to do with programming.
It has to do with testosterone which increases the competitive drive.
Women lack it and so they lack drive.

>>8746770
Why do people still pretend both sexes don't produce both primary sex hormones?

Sensitivity to androgens > how much androgens are produced.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694562/

>>8746727
That was actually my first post ITT. Your reaction, on the other hand, shows how stuck up your ass you are. Testosterone makes you less emotional and more competitive, as some tripfag already said, so it's only natural that men are expected to be emotionally strong. You seem to feel the need for men to be sensitive, are you a tranny? And, yet again, taking pride in weakness is stupid.

>>8747030
The best thing you have is calling me a tranny?
Sad, all you've done is prove my points and objectively demonstrate that you're not only a pathological narcissist, but that men really have no quarter for being sad in this society.

>>8747058
How did I prove your point? Was it by assuming you're a tranny? Just read what you're typing: "rah, rah, rah, men aren't allowed to be sad". Do you seriously believe this? I'm assuming you do because that's what you're typing. And if that's true then it makes sense thinking you're a tranny because only a tranny could have such a warped vision of masculinity and what men are and are not allowed to do. Not even MRAs go as far as you do.

>>8747293
>Just read what you're typing: "rah, rah, rah, men aren't allowed to be sad". Do you seriously believe this?
Why do you not?

>>8748525
Because I'm a man and I know it's not true.

>>8748596
I think you are in denial because admitting it is too uncomfortable. That's the only explanation for why your only defense of your view is "because I know it".

>>8748647
I'm talking from experience but, hey, think whatever you want.

>>8748725
What experiences?

>>8748763
I've been an asshole to my brother whenever he has shown weakness whereas other people were understanding of him and got mad at me for that. But, hey, "men aren't allowed to be sad" or whatever you want to believe.

>>8748846
You need to learn how girls are treated differently.

>>8748862
How?

>>8743076
>>8743079
These are somewhat wrong, I don't believe it's all socialization, with testosterone you just don't feel emotions very strongly, I was almost emotionless before starting hrt, on estrogen at first it was overwhelming but now it's amazing being able to actually feel things

women start taking on other's responsibilities and expectations as girls, expected to help out around house more than boys typically, be more 'responsible' - no 'boys will be boys' attitude applied to girls until theyre teens really and then it's 'crazy teenagers'. parents more posessive over daughters, peer pressures, etc. these aren't hard and fast rules though but pretty common among my peers.

>>8752637
different households have different attitudes, in my house it was "boys are stronger so they have to do more work", my sister never had to help around the house at all

>>8752637
Ugh I've been visiting family this week, my very traditional aunt and uncle have three boys and a girl. Guess who the aunt constantly called in to help with dinner, while the boys talked and played games? I almost called her on it but I didn't have the figurative balls to, lol.

>>8752623
This. Testosterone (fortunately) makes you more resistant to feeling. Unfortunately, even now as a repressor (red: no HRT) I'm too thin-skinned. HRT would fuck me up.

In short? Emotional labor. Women are taught to be responsible for the emotions of everyone around them, everything from keeping the household clean to being a listening ear for others' problems. This is work we are expected to do, and men are never taught to -- in fact, they often completely overlook it.

Want examples? Check out this doc. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view?pref=2&pli=1

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>>8743050

This is the big one

But at least cis girls aren't harassed and called fags for showing weakness and enjoying and valuing "girly" things

Both sides are shit and awesome at the same time but people need to feel like victims:the thread.

>>8752637
>>8752649
Who don't the girls or the boys who are victims of this call their parents out for the sexism and bias? I mean, what do this kind of parent say when that happens?

>>8747030

It's not about taking "pride" in weakness, it's about being realistic. If humans weren't so weak we need to form treaties and friendships to survive we'd be foraging beasts

>>8752637
So feminists where complaining about this and it turns out that boys actually earn more allowance money than girls so the gender pay gap happened in childhood.

I looked into it and turns out boys do earn more on average. But in families with both boys and girls children earn near equal allowances. Boys tend to do harder work, such as yard work. Also families spend much more on girls than they do on boys. So while boys may have more pocket change than girls, girls will have more personal items, such as clothes and toys, they will also have more money spent on them for things like dance classes or other things they are interested it. If you count that into allowance a girl will given thousands of dollars more than a boy in a year. This is actually similar to women in society, they may not earn more but the government spends more on women than men and women spend the majority of the domestic dollar, usually about 7 times more on their own personal goods and activities than men.

>>8743079
Thankfully I've always been someone who would cry all that the time, in front of teachers, professors, peers, friends, coworkers, etc, from childhood through high school to adulthood. I always assumed that casually crying in public was just a normal part of expression and feeling.

Of course, my parents were always afraid to "gender" me in any way and never used any "masculine-affiriming" or expected anything male out of me. As a child I figured that masculine stuff was basically "just a joke" that didn't really happen and it wasn't actually possible to contextualize yourself in masculine expectations, or ever for there to be parents who seriously expected that of you. Of course, alongside that, they later in life they told me how they always considered me "low test" and catered to that.

>>8752699
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view?pref=2&pli=1
Different anon. This is interesting....while I had to learn to shut down all interaction with people on a dime (narcissistic family turned me into a doormat until I could), I recognize EL in the actions of some people around me. I'm more familiar with the 'why its necessary' than I thought I was, but some of the examples were quite good too and were things I hadn't thought of.

Thanks for this, it was very eye-opening and gives me a new dimension to view things from.

So I think the biggest difference between socialization of males and females is violence. Along with being from a single mother home, history of childhood violence is one of the largest predictors of future incarceration.

When comparing the violence faced by male and female children, violence against male children happens earlier and more often. Baby boys are more likely to be abandoned and neglected than baby girls. Baby boys are more likely to be killed by their mother. Boys are more likely to receive physical violence as a punishment starting at an earlier age. One study had mothers watch a video of a gender neutral toddler drawing on a wall. Half were asked what an appropriate punishment for Brian would be and half were asked what an appropriate punishment for Breanna would be, mothers were much more likely to pick physical violence as a punishment for Brian. There is also an issue the the amount of time a mother looks at her child, mothers make eye contact with their female children almost twice as often as with their male children. Not going to go on about circumcision but circumcision increases serum cortisol levels for months after the mutilation.

We see in cultures that regularly use physical violence (such as US Blacks) a much higher rate of crime than cultures who don't use physical violence. We also see bigger differences between the genders in cultures who physical abuse their males babies.

>>8752729
Saying men are as emotional as women (i.e. weak) is not even close to realism.

>>8743050
What is the scientific evidence that socialization is a real thing?

>>8752699
mtf. I wasn't taught these things but it's kind of the role I fell into.

>>8752785
I was very violent as a child and I decided to stop once I grew. Guess I dodged a bullet there.

>>8752792
>What's the scientific evidence people are influenced by how they are raised?

>>8752804
Not ever child who was abused will turn out violent, most do not. Though the level of abuse does matter and boys are abused much harder and more often than girls. Violence happens more to males more often than women and it is socially acceptable for violence to happen to male bodies. This literally beats gender stereotypes into boys.

>>8752717
I did call my parents out on it, they literally just looked at me like I was stupid and ignored me

>>8752807
More like what's the scientific evidence that there's some form of socialization universal to girls that provides a valid reason to say anyone not raised as a girl cannot ever be a real woman?

>>8752699
>In short? Emotional labor. Women are taught to be responsible for the emotions of everyone around them, everything from keeping the household clean

literally >>8752649 >my sister never had to help around the house at all" though.

Nothing is universal. The idea that all girls are taught this and no boys are is idiotic. And no-one ever says that cis girls who don't go through this can't be real women.

>>8752807
Obviously people are affected by how they are raised. But there is not a universal female socialization, across cultures or even within - this is why intersectionality can be appealing, because it recognizes different socialization patterns.

>>8753016
It's not universal, but it's common enough to make a distinction relevant.

>>8753027
(I mean the EL stuff, not that it defines cis women)

>>8752928
Yeah, these roles are so ingrained in society. If you point them out people get mad at you for not going along with it.

>>8753024
>intersectionality
isn't that linked to denying female privilege?

>>8753034
The use of it (or anything else) by TERFs to say "you're not allowed in the 'woman club'" while not bothering to exclude any cis women who don't meet the same bar is the problem.

I feel like in a lot of cases (at least when talking about hetero people) friendships just work differently between two women and two men. Growing up I've alway felt like man/man friendships are more reserved, kind of more one the surface. While women tend to grow close really fast and tell each other every little detail about their lives and consult with their friends over them.

Also, it seems to me, that seeing to female friends close together, holding hands, calling each other pretty is more accepted than when male friends do the same thing, which is probably why they don't do it that often?

Gender rolls

>>8752623
Totally agree, and even regardless HRT Ive always been very emotional and sensitive and it was strange to find out that most of my male friends are nothing like this while girls of course were even more emotional, its very innate. Social gender norms that dont allow men to show any emotions come on top.

>>8752698
Eh I maybe its just me but estrogen was a relieve and could feel so much joy again and less anxiety and anger. I felt more like back in teenage years again, it felt very natural. Too bad I have to repress with no other options

>>8752672
I was kind of glad to have an excuse to leave the guys watching football when I started transitioning. Not that I like washing dishes, but, I really can't stand pretending to be into sports.

>>8753448
This reminds of my first gay friend and how much closer we could get and share and discuss things I wouldn't talk about with my straight friends even tho they were real trusted friends. The social norms for men are really shitty and homophobia is everywhere, you cant show any slightest sign of non-manliness.

>>8752928
>>8752649
>my sister never had to help around the house at all
fuck parents

>>8752623
Isn't this a shit argument? You could posit that the reason you were numbed from before was due to living as the wrong sex and you are able to emotionally feel when you are on the correct ones, whether that's T or E. Be interesting for a FTM to jump in and say whether they got more or less emotional

>>8756219
I'd certainly like to hear an FtMs insight on this.

>>8757097
ditto
t. not one of the previous posters

>>8753194
yes all feminism is

>>8752700
They are taught to bear no personal responsibility for their failures, and this is somehow misogyny.

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>>8743050
There's no point in helping men, their entire existence is based around people giving them orders to exist as a means of supporting other people, and menial tasks to occupy their existence, if you take that away from then they'll finally become pointless in totality.

>>8763817
Yeah I think most posters have given up talking to you Cara.

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>>8763841
I haven't felt like talking here much recently, anyways. I've been very sick lately.

>>8763851
I hope you stop being ill soon.

>>8763851
I hope you fucking die.

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>>8763817
>>8763851

>>8763932
love the meme

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>>8752699
What this so often leaves out is that women also benefit the most from this emotional labor. Cis women support each other, any girl drunk enough to stumble across my closeted ass in the men's room isn't going to be doing much to help or support anyone.