Gay history thread

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>>8655681
*that time WITH pictures

>>8655688
What's the context for "Lesbians & Gays Support the Miners?"
also, huh, LG separatism was a thing in the 80s too

>>8655701
This picture dates to the mining strikes in Britain in the 80s. And I wasn't referring to separatism as much as alienation. I imagine the 80s as just a terrible time to be alive for gay people, what with all the disease and the total lack of ability to network with any other gays unless you were a super-outgoing type ready to hit the clubs. If that wasn't you, you were basically alone. At least that's my perception; I could be wrong, but I wasn't alive in that period.

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>>8655681
Not an oldfag but one of my best friends of 6years is an ancientfag (72)

AMA I guess

>>8655763
we don't know what to ask, just tell their life story.

gay or mtf?

>>8655763
Question 1: I feel like monogamous homosexual relationships have become normalized today, even among younger people. Were people honestly sluttier 30 years ago? Was having a steady bf less common than today?

Question 2: Did you and your DILF friend ever fuck?

>>8655785
I came out in 1987.
I had a bf for 3 years and then a bf for 10 years and then I dated a bunch of guys for about 5 years and now I'm with a guy for the last 12 years.
So, yeah, we had boyfriends back then, but I did have sex with a bunch of guys throughout my life, I don't know if that counts as slutty.
I never got AIDs (because I'm mostly a top and I always use a condom unless I'm in a relationship) but I did get crabs once (gross).

>>8655777
Gay, though probably a Kinsey 4/5

>Joined Navy super young, served in Vietnam/Korea.
>got out, married crazy Chinese woman
>had a son
>divorce
>second marriage to slightly less crazy Chinese woman
>divorce
>decides to gay, decides to politics
>fights for local lgbt ordinances, money out of elections, other liberal shit
>progress abounds
>Car breaks down
>has stroke
>younger gay community abandons him
>supreme court decision delivered
>less reasons to go out and fight the good fight, young faggots don't appreciate it anyway
>stays at home and Bernie posts

Sometimes when I get him to go out to clubs or rallies his 'friends' thank me for getting him to be more active and I want to punch them for not being more involved

>>8655831
Kinda pathetic that someone who lives through post-Stonewall and AIDS cares a jot about Ov.H.

>>8655837
Ov.H.? Does that stand for Ovious Horseshit?

>>8655785
>Question 1: I feel like monogamous homosexual relationships have become normalized today, even among younger people. Were people honestly sluttier 30 years ago? Was having a steady bf less common than today?
To listen to him tell it monogamous relationships, when they existed, lasted longer (most of the monogamous guys he knew stayed together) but monogamous relationships on the whole were rarer, and it was much harder to even hookup safely

>Question 2: Did you and your DILF friend ever fuck?
No, but neither of us really ever wanted to, he's into tall guys and I'm a Manley, whereas I'm into qt. Twinks.

It's probably better for our friendship tho

>>8655837
>Ov.H.
?

>>8655850
Seriously?

>>8655828
I don't think having three boyfriends of such a long duration is particularly slutty. Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder if marriage were normalized earlier, whether there would be more partnerships lasting one's entire lifespan. I guess this is a social experiment we're about to undertake over the next few decades.

You say you "came out", but what did that really mean back then? I could easily envision people getting into relationships or going to the bars while keeping it from their families. Would they have been considered "out"?

>>8655855
I see. That's what I expected. It sounds like scoring a steady boyfriend would be the holy grail in that era, you know? A steady force in your life, whom you could get to know, and whom you could trust to be clean. That's surely something that the community needed more of back then. It's good that monogamy is being normalized now.

How did you meet this guy anyway?

>>8655879
Friend of a friend

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A flashback to the 90's, zines if anyone remembers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Shame

http://mattildabernsteinsycamore.com/thatsrevolting.html

I nearly come to tears thinking how todays kids have had huge swaths of our history erased by what we then called the orthodoxy.

Those were the privileged cunts, todays dinosaurs, that had no problem sidling up to money for an outcome, and to do it, the rest of us had to be washed away. These were the scum that commercialized the circuit scene and sent a generation into drug chic. Or they would sexually exploit runaways as sex workers until they piled up in their gayborhoods, then would have the police round them up like feral cats and sent to jail in youth.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-new-york-public-library/forty-and-proud-a-brief-h_b_625983.html

I'd link stories about Christopher Street, but you will find different view points on what happened and who's fault it was.

But there was a glorious time when there was resistance to the white washing and assimililationist attitudes, before it was all hijacked, or during rather. The queer punk music scene was peerless. Among us, it was perfectly legitimate to ask why we would want to adopt a broken institution like marriage for ourselves. The difference between 'gay' and 'queer' was meaningful. There was an anger; while limosuine liberals hustled money for lobbyists and presented an invariably white privileged clean-cut A&F vision of 'gays' to the hetero world, the rest of us were content to throw broken bottles for free at the straight establishment and the orthodoxy mowing us over alike. They wanted court cases; we wanted a street fight.

Trans was different too. It wasnt about building a worldview out of wanting to be a woman. It was about a certainty that you never felt you had to argue; either people got it or they didn't, and if they didn't, fuck'em,..

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>>8655903
>They wanted court cases; we wanted a street fight.
Who was right?

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>>8655903

The trans were quiet heroes. They weren't lobbying for social upheaval because they were too busy being decent human beings. They looked after their youth unlike the gays who couldn't find enough ways to exploit them. Sorry, but these are facts. They looked after ours too, in the practical every day ways that mattered to real peoples lives. I remember the Sylvia Rivera Law Project. While the gays wouldn't touch the issue of gays in jail, the SRLP actually reached out to help gay kids in jail as well as their own.

I'll leave it there before I legitimately start ranting.

I guess what I mean is that 'gay death' isn't necessarily something that happens to one person and their looks. If you aren't careful, it can happen to millions just in their mind. A persons life may last decades, but a generations life is definitely in their 20s and everything after is retrospection and adaptation. Thats the age that moves the world. Don't let your memories fade or its too damn easy to forget who the hell you are if you dont remember where you've been.

A little diddy I liked from the period. Alas, It may not be palatable to everyone.

Good night, all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syOylbUDrSQ

>>8655867
>You say you "came out", but what did that really mean back then?

Well, for me coming out meant I told my family and I told the people I worked with and I told my friends (most of them were gay by then since I was 26 and I had known I was gay for most of my life but I still dated girls in high school and college because being gay was really considered the lowest of the low back then and there weren't any role models.
I mean we didn't know anyone who was gay outside of the gay bars.
There was a rumour that David Bowie had fucked Mick Jagger but that was it.
I personally know several couples that have been together for more than 50 years (they are much older than me and were together when I first met them 30 years ago) so I know long-lasting relationships for gay men are possible for some people and I always wanted to have one relationship that lasted my whole life but relationships are a lot of work and I made a lot of mistakes.
I came out to everyone as a political statement.
I didn't want people to think I was ashamed or confused.
I wanted people to know that it wasn't "just a phase" and that I wasn't just a sick pervert or sex addict or whatever it was that they thought about gay people at the time.
I figured it was my life to live as I choose and so I did and I don't regret it, although my parents didn't speak to me for about 20 years (they have since apologized and we have patched things up) and several of my straight friends refused to be my friend after I told them.

>>8655903
How do you expect to convince anybody you're not straight dog shit when the main goal of your "cult" is to make gay marriage illegal?

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>>8655918

Thanks for the flashback; I miss these debates. You may be misinterpreting the meaning of the Homocult Youth League.

Good night.

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>>8655910

It doesn't matter. History is written by the victors.

G'nite.

>>8655903
>>8655914
This is a very unusual perspective, but it's interesting. So is this what the Anon above meant by "gay separatism"? The active rejection of integration into broader society and the dismissal of liberal elites who wanted to make it happen?

What's the end goal though?

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>>8655923

>>8655903
>I nearly come to tears thinking how todays kids have had huge swaths of our history erased by what we then called the orthodoxy. Those were the privileged cunts, todays dinosaurs, that had no problem sidling up to money for an outcome, and to do it, the rest of us had to be washed away.
This attitude still exists. You see it in the people calling for an end to pride parades, who disavow the Q (really anyone who they see as queerer than them because without the freaks they'd be more "acceptable"), who promote respectability over truth to self.

>>8655933
>What's the end goal though?
failure

>>8655903

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Faeries

>>8655941
Who are worse, people wanting to end pride parades because of respect, or people who want to end pride parades in protest of commercialism?

>>8655903
>It was about a certainty that you never felt you had to argue; either people got it or they didn't, and if they didn't, fuck'em,..
mtf here, wish we could go back to this. I *know* who I am but the world does everything it can to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm supposed to politely debate whether I am valid or not because "there are two sides to every argument", or because some people think I'm mentally ill and delusional? FUCK that.

Whatever happened to the social momentum of the 60s, 70s, early 80s in general? I feel like decades of progress were wiped out.

>>8655949
Protesting commercialization of Pride is a damn good point, but I don't think it warrants abolishing it entirely

>>8655955
>Whatever happened to the social momentum of the 60s, 70s, early 80s in general? I feel like decades of progress were wiped out.
AIDS... Are you retarded?

>>8655958
Protesting commercialization in general is a good point, specifically protesting commercialization of pride is idiotic.

>>8655923
The main point was that gays shouldn't have rights. That sounds awfully straight-dog-shit.

You can't claim I don't understand when you demand that I should not be allowed rights. Even straights can't be retarded enough to think I would fall for this.

>>8655964
You have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex, just like everyone else.

>>8655966
I mean, why don't you at least pretend your head has a brain inside of it, instead of just deceitful living shit?

>>8655959
I don't mean in the gay community, I mean American culture in general. Exploration of spirituality outside Christianity, new musical forms that weren't overcommercialized, active protest where we *demanded* a better solution...it's like the hardened shell of puritan repression cracked open.

>>8655971
The news stopped reporting on it.

The culture wars haven't ended, they're picking up steam. It's just that Republicans have a monopoly on the media now, so they choose to not report on it.

You didn't think tens of millions marched in protest, rioted, started sending death threats to Republican politicians en masse, all over the election fraud of one Donald J. Dump, all in defense of a woman candidate, because the culture wars were over, did you? Do you really think "American culture" from 80 years ago would have given 2 shits if a woman candidate had her votes stolen?

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>>8655681
A few of my favorite books that talk explicitly about gay life in previous decades:

Evening Crowd at Kirmser's: A Gay Life in the 1940s
by Ricardo J. Brown

Full Service: My Adventures in Hollywood and the Secret Sex Live of the Stars
by Scotty Bowers

LIVE AT THE CONTINENTAL : The Inside Story of the World-Famous Continental Baths
by Steve Ostrow

Secrets Of A Gay Marine Porn Star
by Rich Merritt

And here are some other people's favorite book lists:

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/lgbt-history

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=667911

The Heart is a Lonely Hunter (1940) - Carson McCullers
Our Lady of the Flowers (1942) - Jean Genet
In Youth is Pleasure (1945) - Denton Welch
The Fall of Valor (1946) - Charles Jackson
Other Voices, Other Rooms (1948) - Truman Capote
Confessions of a Mask (1949) - Yukio Mishima
Lucifer With a Book (1949) - John Horne Burns
The Thief's Journal (1949) - Jean Genet
Quatrefoil (1950) - James Barr
Finistere (1951) - Fritz Peters
Parents' Day (1951) - Paul Goodman
Hemlock and After (1952) - Angus Wilson
Let It Come Down (1952) - Paul Bowles
The World in the Evening (1954) - Christopher Isherwood
Yesterday Will Make You Cry (1955) - Chester Himes
Giovanni's Room (1956) - James Baldwin
Jamie Is My Heart's Desire (1956) - Alfred Chester
Sam (1959) - Lonnie Coleman
Another Country (1962) - James Baldwin
City of Night (1963) - John Rechy
A Single Man (1964) - Christopher Isherwood
Totempole (1965) - Sanford Friedman

>>8655941
Here's the ultimate plot twist: What if truth to self necessarily entails, for some people, an internal recognition that homosexuality is a brain disease and the desire to see its normalization reversed? Maybe it has nothing to do with wanting to be respectable and accepted by the mainstream. Maybe these people are just naturally uneasy about the whole thing. Take me: I grew up in a progressive country, but I've never been to a pride parade in my life because I'm not a social butterfly and the aesthetics unsettle me. It has nothing to do with wanting to be "respectable".

Point is, there are all kinds of gays with different ideologies, but if there's anything I like in your side of it, it's the focus on not turning our community's history into shallow commercialism.

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>>8655978
A Boy's Own Story - Edmund White
Maurice - E.M. Forster
Tales of the City - Armistead Maupin
Me Talk Pretty One Day - David Sedaris
The Naked Civil Servant - Quentin Crisp
Eminent Outlaws - Christopher Bram
Boy Meets Boy - David Levithan
Mysterious Skin - Scott Heim
Becoming a Man: Half a Life Story - Paul Monette
Oscar Wilde - Richard Ellmann
Queer - William S. Burroughs
A Single Man - Christopher Isherwood
Death in Venice - Thomas Mann
Homo-Sexual Life - William J. Fielding
Discreet Young Gentleman - M.J. Pearson
Shattered Love - Richard Chamberlain
Patricia Nell Warren - The Front Runner


http://www.tzum.info/2016/07/nieuws-250-beste-homoboeken-editie-2016/

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>>8655978
>>8656022

tyvm

I'd like to encourage people to read up on homosexuality in classical, Hellenist Greece, both Athenian but also Laconian, or Spartan. It was a working model. People like to portray it as an analog to todays homosex, but it really wasn't not at all.

Some distinguishing factors:

For one, it wasnt homosexual identity but seen as an offshoot of the normal worship of specifically youth in males, not males per se. For example, keeping in mind that life spans were short, an older male was celebrated because of what his youth achieved to lead him to greatness, not his form in age itself, as contrasted with the sexualization of older males today.

In context, a male wasnt considered an adult until 20, but females were nubile at 15. Males didnt marry until 25. For reference, Paul Cartledge's books on the period.

Homosex was also age related, and restricted. Athenians prohibited sex between older males and younger ones at gymnasiums, where people were typically naked, the word 'gym' literally translating to 'naked'. Whatever younger males did was between them. However one was expected to abandon it as family making years approached, and it was considered odd and even perverse to be with a male past a certain age for either person, for different reasons.

Sex between males was typically frottage, masturbation or intercrural, that being between the thighs. Anal sodomy was a violation that threatened to feminize males, and only practiced (if admittedly) upon slaves, prisoners or prostitutes.

There has been a lot said about instituional pederasty in Sparta, but what is often left out is that this was between older and younger teens. It wasnt openly ritualized, but wasnt considered abnormal either, enough that it had its own subcultural jargon.

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>>8656073

Homosex was seen more as exuberant male behavior in youth rather than some lifestyle or identity. The prevailing notion might be summed up as 'why *wouldn't* horny young males unable to fornicate with society's respectable females entertain each other?"

Everyone was still expected to get married and have family.

Other greek theories of sex were that sex was only the penetration of a female vagina by a male, because only that had meaningful social import. What two males or females did was simply a recreation. Therefore it was understood that some women retained a preference for females, but nothing they did could be interpreted in their language as actual sex. Roles mattered too; a male that retained a preference for penetrating males wasnt seen as especially unusual, but a male who retained a preference for pleasing men sexually, even as a young adult, was looked upon as odd and/or emasculated, possibly to the point of being dysfunctional and outcast as normal male psyche, thus the proscription against anal sex among peer castes.

These age and role differences are still seen in most of the world outside the modern West. In Japan, which has swerved in and out of imitating Western ideas, a slang term for the practice of homosex( shumi) translates as "hobby".

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>>8656094

Among Vikings, as in Islam and older Latin American cultures, role is also weighted heavily in how homosex is practiced. For a while, the confusion between Latin American ideas and the West was called "Latin Bisexuality" and still continues in many parts. The penetrator is seen as having a vice that is not moral, but the more immoral role is that of the 'passivo' for abandoning gender role.

Among Vikings, there was little to say about it in this context, however it was a high crime to avoid marriage with a female. It wasnt an interest in males that was rejected quite as openly as the fear or "running from women".

In what Christian and Jewish scriptures, one would want to note that it was written by Jews, who often liked to cite moral superiority over their Roman oppressors. Even the eponymous Canaanites had etymological roots that evoked a history of sexual impropriety that was heavily suggestive of homosex.

Other cultural reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwa_Oasis#Siwan_homosexual_tradition

It may also be worth noting that American Western ideas are attempting to 'modernize' the ideas of homosex in Mexico, presumably for political gain. (It has not gone well since, as it is an affront to machismo culture as well).

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>>8655977

>Republicans have a monopoly on the media now

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>>8655918

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There is some historical misrepresentation of nazi persecution of homosexuals.

It most certainly did exist. However there is some odd backstory culturally.

For example, this guy, Ernst Rohm was openly (some would say ferociously) homosexual, and one of Hitler's closest associates early in his political career. Neo nazis in particular like to gloss over this contradiction.

In fact, Jewish media of the age loved nothing more than to point this out, depicting Rohm in his leadership role early on as being access to young men. It was in fact common knowledge among the almost equally homo interested subordinates.

Hitler did have him killed, unable to murder his friend himself, when he was becoming a threat to Hitlers growing monopoly of power, and Hitlers backers were hesitant to bet on him when there was a rival capable of usurping his agenda. Reportedly, when Rohm was shot, he refused to believe Hitler had ordered it and opened his shirt for the bullet, demanding that if it were true, Hitler should come and shoot Rohm himself.

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>>8656161

Jews have an interesting litany they recite at Passover: " In each and every generation they rise up against us to destroy us..." I think its worth noting as an irony here, because both Jews and homosexuals go through this.

Meaning that these things seem to move in cycles when a society becomes disorganized, there eventually comes a push for social cohesion of values, and open homosexuals, regarded much as prostitutes for purveyors of vice, dont have a place in a traditional family oriented society (which always has the effect of simply pushing the majority underground while a few are made examples of).

I just mean it as a warning about pushing for a society that is a bit too diverse in ideas about social merit when said society is under stress; they will seek the easiest path to order to maintain an identity at all, and sides get chosen.

And as with gay Berlin, there seems to be a swell right before the crash, and then bedlam is unleashed where judgements are made swiftly and discussion of details is ignored, as it was with Rohm. His ruthless conquest of ideology of the common people ultimately didn't serve him, and a backlash to a topic no one cared about much came years later.

I worry we are in that swell before the crash now. Much of the crackdown on homosexuals in unstable Islamic countries are in places where muslims lead more or less secular lives.

>>8656112
You can meme it all you like, but it's still just a danker meme.

There is one major media corporation in the U.S. owned by a registered Democrat, the one that funds Comedy Central and it's news shows. Your news stations reported just a couple weeks ago that they caught each other getting their news directing from the Russian RT headquarters in Washington D.C.

Just because Russian people in the U.S. claim that all of the media is owned by liberals doesn't mean any real people have fallen for that. After all, all Russians are liars. Always have been, always will be.

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>>8656164

No matter what the prevailing tolerance is, when the crackdowns come, they are swift and remarkably wreckless. They are not so much a reaction to societal collapse as the peoples perception of it and people start looking for low hanging fruit as scape goats, in much the way that an American population of 96% typically childless heterosexuals blame the other 4% for not reproducing. By contrast in Africa, the persecution has never stopped in its history. You would be challenged to find a Sub Saharan nation where homosexuality isn't met with violent reaction in public, even in contrast to North African and Middle east nations.

Some reading for perspective:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/?single_page=true

Sometimes it is the first thing the mobs go after in a cathartic frenzy, but often it is also the last. It can result from social instability while also occurring *because* of immense stability and a sense of moral boredom.

>>8656197
Or it's because of straights. Strange how all of the miriad of longwinded dissertations all leave out this most crucial point.

>>8656209

>it's because of straights

Since you have such an agile and articulate grasp of the problem, you should fight back.

Start with your parents.

Once you're tall enough.

>>8656214
I beat the shit out of my mom when I was 5. How many times have you beaten the shit out of a straight, you old man you?

>>8655730
>diseases
Only if you do degenerate sexual acts.

>>8655941
You're retarded. The two issues are utterly unrelated. In fact, you have much more in common with them than we do.

>>8655933
Honesty.

>>8655964
Rights don't mean anything in reality. You'll see how quickly they'll disappear. That's because the only thing that matters is changing people's mentalities..

>>8656218
You sound like a delightful individual.

>>8655941
>who disavow the Q
When the Q consists of nothing but cishet women in unisex clothes and dyed hair the term is needlessly redundant.
Acknowledging Q is admitting that lgbt is just another cishet cosplaying network.

>>8655948
It's so weird to know this was spearheaded by a founding member of the Mattachine Society, and I know a few people who'll dismiss homophile groups as milquetoast and passive