Trans question: is terminology important?

>>8548841
Yes, yes it is.

>>8548841
>I get that there are neurological differences (brains in males tend to have reliable identifiers that set them apart from brains in females. If a male develops a female type brain, then trans people.)
WRONG

>>8548843
What about gamete production is important? I always figured it was just what societal role they're filling? Basically gender vs sex.

I mean, if you produce microgametes but get to present as feminine in all ways that you want, does the sex component still bother you? That seems really silly.

>>8548861
I meant from a biological perspective. Which is a field in which I'm formally educated.

How did you think I meant it in which you believed I was incorrect?

>>8548867
Being gendered in correctly bothers us. If they are obviously presenting as a women just use the proper pronouns. Pronouns are more about conveying information regarding someone apparent gender anyway. Don't be a dick.

>>8548876
Sorry, was talking about sex not gender.

Be whatever gender you want. Tons of cultures have more than masculine and feminine genders. Societal roles are complex and fluid. You do you.

I was talking about terms like male and female that pertain specifically to gamete production.

>>8548872
Trans isn't "female type"/"male type" brains.

>>8548888
Trans people usually don't have kids so I'm not sure why talking about it is important. From a medical perspective I tell doctors I'm female as my body had more in common with a female body after extended hormones therapy. Outside of that context itnsiuld never really come up.

Of course we hate that our sex isn't perfectly cis. We all to some degree hate ourselves for not being cis. We are simply worse.

>>8548897
Explain what you mean.

There are neurological patterns that are reliably seen in standard men and women that differentiate the two. Transexual people frequently register neurological patterns typical of the opposite sex. This is something formal academic studies have found and have had peer reviewed.

I don't understand your issue?

>>8548922
I'm not the person who said "WRONG" but I would like to play devil's advocate here.
>Transexual people frequently register neurological patterns typical of the opposite sex
If it's something that only happens frequently, and not universally, it's more of a correlation that shouldn't be assumed to be the underlying cause for all transsexuals.
If we identify biological features as the indicators for transness, we open up some freaky doors to gatekeepers, imo.

>>8548922
Ignore him, he's a trender snowflake and/or agp fetishist with autism

>>8548907
It's not how often it comes up, I was just curious about the average stance. Like on a driver's license or passport there is a male/female checkbox and the status of one's gamete production is pretty binary. I was merely curious if, for example, a transexual man (thus functioning as a non-masculine entity in society) would be frustrated or unhappy about having to check the male box.

If it -would- bother them, or if they care enough to lie and check female, I was curious as a follow up what about gamete production status was so viscerally impactful.

Again, I don't have a lot of exposure to this and it's just a passing curiosity. I appreciate everyones time and effort in answering.

>>8549027
Well as someone that has worked in biological sciences professionally I can tell you that nothing is 100% all the time. Reasons we may not see it:
>Not tested for
>Wrong test method
>Tests that aren't sensitive enough
>Poorly interpreted data
>It simply isn't there

Science isn't as cut and dry as a lot of those outside the field seem to think. The point was that once you see it frequently enough you draw a connection.

Say the neuro pattern switch were talking about is seen in 0.01% of non trans people, but is seen in 14% of trans people. That is a HUGE Delta and suggests the switch is playing some role. Either it's caused by something that is the root of transness or it's a part of the root cause. Either way all that data would conclude is that it's somehow involved.

>>8548841
just ask them what pronouns they want used, and use those.

Gamete production, or any other feature of the human reproductive system, strikes me as something that you shouldn't bring up in the workplace anyway, even with non-trans folks. Sounds like a great way to get in trouble with HR due to "sexual harrassment"

As for politeness, just ask what pronouns they want and use those. When you use the wrong pronouns its about as rude as calling the legless guy "stumpy"

>>8549078
I wasn't talking about pronouns out even relating to the two in my office. They just catalyzed my wondering about the specific terms "male" and "female"

The pronoun issue is totally different and one I didn't want to get into because I
(1) don't really care
And
(2) if pressed probably land on an opinion that wouldn't be supper popular here.

Thanks for your time though

>>8549064
I agree with you entirely. All I'm concerned about is the way that such findings could be interpreted by outside communities. Language is really important, and if we're not careful about how we word things, people can take them the wrong way.

I guess all I'm really worried about is if neurological phenotypes are used as a qualifier for trans people, that a lot of trans people are going to get screwed over and illegitimized. though I suppose this fear is irrational considering the trajectory of the medical community's discourse about trans people.

>>8549044
Ok you seem to be a bit confused on terminology here.

A trans man would be female at birth transitioned to be a man. They would want all their it's to reflect a male gender/sex.

A trans woman born male would want all their id to reflect female.

Why on earth would we want our ids to not reflect what we look like? How does that help anyone?

>>8549205
Same fagging but I also don't like your use of "lie" there. The government legally recognized my gender as being female. So when my state issues I'd and passport say female I'm not lying.

>>8549064
>Either it's caused by something that is the root of transness or it's a part of the root cause.
Congrats, you've just debunked your own claim.

Okay, I was trying to figure out what gametes had to do with anything. It seems like you're using "gamete production" as a stand-in for "sex." Which...okay, that's kinda autistic and unintuitive but also kind of adorably polite.

Anyway, I'm an FtM and this is my general stance:

- terms like "boy," "girl," "man," "woman," etc. are terms for gender and not sex and should be applied in a way that matches someone's identity without exception
- terms like "male" and "female" apply to sex and should be used to refer to someone's actual sex for the most part

This isn't a perfect system; but generally, if I have to check a "male/female" box, I check "male" if it's actually clearly referring to gender and "female" if it's referring to sex.

e.g. I check "female" if it's a medical form, "male" if it's administrative bullshit, etc.

>>8549205
>>8549217
My apologies if I got the terminology wrong.

That sort of gets at my point though. Male and female are specifically biological terms that denote what gametes an organism produces. You can't transition from male to female. That's saying. That your body naturally produced spermatozoa and then changed to naturally produced ovum.

That doesn't happen in humans. Some amphibians and fish, sure, but that's not the case for us. Which was the Crux of my question: gametes don't really matter for trans people in terms of functioning in society so why would the biological terms used to denote their presence matter to trans people?

>>8549289
It's autistic but I wouldn't call it adorably polite. This guy is obviously a troll.

>>8549289
This basically answers my question. Thanks for taking the time to write it. "Man" and "woman" definitely function as societal identifiers so I'm all for those. Was just wondering about the sex labels.

And again, I don't have a lot of exposure to this stuff, but I can be overly clinical at times. So.thanks for the explanation.

>>8549307
Only place I troll is /pol/ because they're all insufferable shitters.

>>8549301
K, but no one idea those terms that way in day to life and function. So it's useless to talk about them that way. Using the term male for me hurts me because it doesn't lone up with what I'm presenting and pits me at risk. No one gives a shit about gamete production. They care about what you like like and appear to be. Giving them conflicting information on that regard doesn't matter.

It looks like you are just grasping for a reason to have an excuse to call transwomen me and transmen women.

>>8548841
Mtfs can't produce sperm. So they can't be male by that definition.

File: tumblr_lkp9xiwBMU1qjxjvjo1_250.jpg (8KB, 200x200px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 200x200px

>>8549027
>but I would like to play devil's advocate here.

>>8549301
>>8549044
Yes it matters. If you're male, and haven't does enough to change that medically, then you're a hideous hon. A creepy monster in a dress.

It's probably better to die than be like that.

>>8548861
There are measurable biological differences between cis male brains and trans mtf brains.
But there are also differences between mtf brains and female brains.

>>8549044
Being referred to as the right gender is socially pretty important to humans. I'm sure you remember being an 8 year old boy and having your 8 year old boy friends get real butthurt when you told them they "threw like a girl".

A trans person who identifies as a woman will be similarly butthurt over being called a man.

>>8549044
>>8548841
Also the bathroom laws separate bathroom access based on male or female so that means they can get arrested and put in prison if their Id says the wrong thing

>>8549319
Mtf who transition can't produce sperm so they're not male. And if their id says male they can be arrested for using public restrooms so outing people with false information and sending them to jail is pretty bad

>>8549044
>or if they care enough to lie and check female
Why do you call it a lie? I'm fully transitioned and use female on everything because that's what I am. If there's a need to know I'm trans I can add that information, but I'm still female.
Your insistence on talking about gametes sounds like you're baiting us.

>>8549523
He's definitely baiting us.

>>8549339
>>8549447
>>8549523

Surprised this thread is still up. I got my question pretty thoroughly answered so thanks for that everyone.

But for these posts I wanted to make a token effort to help you understand the gamete production.

Take humans defined as bipedal mammals. If a man loses his legs in an accident he doesn't stop being human. It has to do with your natural gamete production, not augmentation through external stimuli.

I didn't come here to give a lecture on genetics so I don't care to get into it any more than that, but I hope that helps clear up how some biological classification works in case you're interested.

Thanks again guys!

>>8549906
We got what it was. It's just a stupid thing to bade a trans discussion around.

>>8549921
Well maybe it's a given for people that live in the culture every day but try to understand that for people that don't, it is likely a very reasonable question. I'm not trying to antagonize you here. It was just a personal curiosity.

>>8549906
The tissue is different and incapable of production so the organs aren't there. That's why you have intersex fish regardless of what they were born as when hey get spiked with hormones.

Why don't you leave medicine to the doctors and stop playing MD when you're delusional trailer trash?

>>8549906
>>8548841
And thank you for destroying all your credibility. Phenotype depends on how genes are expressed. Both male and female are naturally coded in all humans. You obviously never took a genetics course. Please stick to what you're capable of.
>These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes. “It has been, in a sense, a philosophical change in our way of looking at sex; that it's a balance,” says Eric Vilain, a clinician and the director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California, Los Angeles. “It's more of a systems-biology view of the world of sex.”

>According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance. In 2009, researchers reported7 deactivating an ovarian gene called Foxl2 in adult female mice; they found that the granulosa cells that support the development of eggs transformed into Sertoli cells, which support sperm development. Two years later, a separate team showed8 the opposite: that inactivating a gene called Dmrt1 could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones. “That was the big shock, the fact that it was going on post-natally,” says Vincent Harley, a geneticist who studies gonad development at the MIMR-PHI Institute for Medical Research in Melbourne.
http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

>>8550054
No you're just some bag boy who thinks he's brilliant because of his highschool bio. Never mind that nothing from high school is right and you have no higher education and are a perfect example of the dunning kruger effect

>>8550150
>>8550186
>Highschool bio degree
Or ya know, a molecular cell biology degree and 7+ years as a professional research scientist. Either or.

What do you do again? Barista or something? Why are you guys so hostile to someone that's trying to have an honest and benign conversation with you? Are you really trying to out-/pol/ /pol/?

>>8550166
Interesting article! Of course genetic deformations and other such circumstances (like XXY and so forth) have been known for a very long time. Basically a good general approach is that if genes make something work, then they can "break", so if XY usually develops testes then that process can fail to work correctly. That was never my point. in fact a lot of sex determination stuff seems to correlate strongly with hormone levels in utero.

The point that I was making was that human testes producing ovum doesn't seem to be something that's been observed. That article looks really interesting, though it doesn't seem to address whether the test subjects actually made a full transition between gamete production, just that adult stem cells in the area developed along different lines.

In fact with granulosa cells:
>The major functions of granulosa cells include the production of sex steroids, as well as myriad growth factors thought to interact with the oocyte during its development.

They play a major role during development of a new oocyte, but once an organism is mature (aka after birth) their only role is to play a role regulating different hormones and progrsterone.

Still very fascinating, and thank you for linking! Even though it doesn't contradict my points. Though this debate was never the point of the thread

>>8550530
Graduate student. And I really wonder when you got your degree. You say phenotype doesn't matter and it's all genetics. But phenotype is plastic because genetics. If they aren't the organs and tissue capable of producing sperm because hormones altered the body's biology, then that's not the definition of male. It's the same as with fish.

Equating that to becoming another species is ridiculous because there's no genetic coding that will let dog hormones signal for human tissue to become dog tissue.

You're either lying or incompetent.

>>8548841
Out of common decency and basic respect, refer to them as she/her/hers/female/woman/etc if they are MtF or vice versa if FtM.

>>8548861
He is correct. There are differences in how male and female brains react to varied stimuli and process information or engage in reasoning, logic and problem solving.

>>8549027
Gatekeeping is necessary to weed out annoying trendies.

>>8549044
Having to check the 'male' box is extremely enraging, just as using/signing/hearing my old name was enraging. I check female on most documents unless medically relevant. It's no one's business outside of medical treatment or an intimate relationship. Whether we produce sperm or eggs is irrelevant. This is a neurological disorder that we adapt to. Not all trannies even produce sperm or eggs because those parts have been removed. Our chromosomes (XX or XY) are also irrelevant. We're aware that it is currently impossible to alter DNA on that level, but we also don't have to see our chromosomes every fucking day as with our exterior appearance. Unless for some bizarre reason you do blood tests multiple times a day and check on your DNA. It doesn't bother anyone.