A proposition to transgender people.

>>8535060
It literally doesn't matter what you think though since you're only one person and you're not exactly the ambassador of humanity so your "proposition" is pretty pointless overall so I don't know what you expect people to say about it.

>>8535073

I'm asking for anyone to reflect on what I think. I want to get to the bottom of whatever gender theory is correct. I want to have a fact-informed world view. I want to have my view challenged, objected to, corroborated, and thought about by anyone who is willing to contribute to this thread.

>>8535060
Ah I see, so what you're saying is your stance is the time honored "people wouldn't transition without gender roles" argument, but with the added clause that if people still wanted to transition despite that, they shouldn't.

Top work, I expect as much from the absolutely brilliant minds of 4chan posters such as yourself.

>>8535060
you'll find here that most don't think trans people are literally the same as women or men. society will never stop forcing gender roles on people, because gender roles are a cultural consequence of biological sex differences and division of labor. as for how gender expression is now? a woman wearing a suit is seen as a woman wearing a suit. a man wearing a dress is a disgusting freak. make of that what you will. even without the stigma on gnc behavior, I'm willing to bet many would still transition because of dysphoria.

the bottom line is, you can have whatever worldview you want, but you can't define others' experiences for them.

oh and btw -- trans women do not have "plastic boobs", nor do they wear dresses and makeup all the time.

>>8535104

People can do whatever they want with their bodies if they're of age. I'm simply acknowledging that and getting at a deeper issue - gender theory. Which gender theory is correct? Trans people adhere to gender essentialism, that they are innately a woman and they feel they must change themselves to accord with this gender identity on the outside, too.

You don't seem to have much to say to counter this idea.

I'm not looking for mean-spiritedness, and I myself am not looking to be mean, I just want to get to the bottom of the truth about what gender is.

>>8535117
>People can do whatever they want, but only when I say they can

>Trans people adhere to gender essentialism
>all of a type of person holds this one belief
*applaud*
My god, you've done it again. You really are the genius that trans people need.

>>8535109

In a world without gender people may want to surgically and hormonally alter themselves, but not to transition to a particular gender. Because these genders no longer exist, and gender dysphoria is a neurological/psychological condition.

Others may experience one thing or another, but that doesn't mean someone is a man or a woman because they feel like one. I'm challenging the idea that there should be a "man" and "woman" in terms of gender. The vast majority of humans are divided along sex lines (male and female) but how people feel inside and how they prefer certain things like clothes or makeup or whatever shouldn't be connected by society with their sex.

>>8535127

I'm not saying trans people can't do anything. Literally all I'm doing is questioning the majority of trans peoples' gender theory.

>>8535060
>>8535117
Okay, let's talk gender theory. Honestly I really, really wish I had a better answer than "I'm a woman because I know I am". I could say "I'm a woman because the prospect of living as a man forever makes me feel sick", or "I'm a woman because I was incredibly uncomfortable with my testosterone-fueled body and felt disconnected with myself", or "I'm a woman because presenting myself and interacting with others as a woman (note: NOT a feminine man) makes me more fulfilled and happy", but in the end those are all different versions of "I'm a woman because I feel like I am".

For some reason, people like you who believe trans is "gender essentialism" think that means my experience isn't real, or that it enforces the gender as an oppressive system. Trust me when I say these experiences are very much real. I didn't ask to be trans, and I wish I weren't, but I can't live as a cis man for the rest of my life and feel constantly dead inside either. Tbh I don't care what everyone else does. I think in a world where gender were less restrictive, I would still transition, for the reasons I stated above.

Your narrative invalidates the experiences of trans people and portrays us as the villains in a systematic campaign to end gender nonconformity. Think about what you're really saying when you talk about gender essentialism.

>>8535060
In your first paragraph you say gender is a social construct and people are free to accept or reject others definitions of gender.

In your second paragraph you display a severe lack of understanding of trans people and say in a world without gender roles, people wouldn't transition,

But then in your third paragraph you explain why even in said world people would transition, and then just to contradict a bit of your first paragraph too you top it off with the fact that people will always be the gender that you personally think they are "But that doesn't mean [...] makes you a woman"

Your fourth paragraph is fine.

And then your fifth paragraph basically amounts to "but yeah I don't see why y'all shouldn't be able to transition."


Your post isn't even a proposition, you didn't propose anything. What point are you trying to make? Are you even trying to make a point or are you just thinking out loud?

>>8535153

I wasn't saying that people are free to accept or reject others' definitions of gender. I'm saying everyone is free to decide what they want about the gender that society gives them.

In a world without gender roles, people would get surgical and hormonal changes and wear the things they want, but it's not transitioning since you're not transitioning from anything to anything, you're just changing what you do and how you behave. There's nothing to transition to or from. In a world without gender roles I reject that a person with a penis who likes pants would be transitioning if they were to get SRS and wear dresses.

>>8535153
The point OP is making is that they think transition is regressive and wrong. They're just saying it in not so many words.

>>8535151

No, I think your experience is real. Go ahead and do whatever you want. But not because you're really a certain gender on the inside but because you're doing it out of your own will without hurting anyone.

You said you were going to talk gender theory and then talked about a whole bunch of things related to sex dysphoria that I don't contest. I don't contest you feel that way and that you would prefer to do a bunch of traditionally feminine things with regard to your behavior and physical self. I simply reject the idea of genders altogether, since I believe, yes, that gender roles are oppressive.'

Your experiences are real but that doesn't mean your view on gender is accurate.

>>8535162

Not at all, people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone. For me it's a matter of exercising personal agency.

>>8535160
>it's not transitioning
>you're just changing


I mean

>>8535173

Trans people use "transition" to an outward change from one category to another category. E.g. "I transitioned from a man to a woman." Transition implies a definitive change from one thing to another. If gender roles don't exist there can be no actual transitioning. But that doesn't mean that a person who wants to alter their body and change the way they behave, dress, etc. shouldn't or wouldn't do so in a world without gender roles.

>>8535163
I believe gender roles are oppressive, but they're also inescapable. As long as we have sexual dimorphism, we'll have gender. I feel I'm simply doing the best I can to live my best life within this oppressive system. I'm not much of an activist -- I don't think I'm cut out for it -- but if I were, I'd focus on making gender the least oppressive it can be, like making nonconforming gender expression more acceptable. Rejecting gender altogether is a utopian dream, but nothing more.

>>8535193

That's fine, but I'm looking for peoples' thoughts on the ideas about gender theory I've put forward.

>>8535202
those are my thoughts, I'm not sure what you-

oh, I get it. you're looking for people who agree with you.

>>8535213

No, I mean that everything you said is compatible with what I've said about gender. You just said gender roles are inescapable and that you want to reduce all tension that gender roles cause. That has really nothing to do with whether gender is essential or not.

>>8535183
Still, what's the point? That's just arguing semantics.
"It's not transitioning if we don't have a word for any type of opposite sex" yeah well anything in between bread is a sandwich if we throw out the words hot-dog and burrito who gives a fuck.

>>8535060
So nobody should get abortions or birth control or anything that could kills them through dangerous blood clots until they are old enough to make the decision?

Banning abortion for under 18 is good right?

>>8535230

Because the idea that transitioning involves discrete gender roles is important if we're to maintain consistency of the gender theory.

File: 1469583679365.gif (479KB, 434x444px) Image search: [Google]

479KB, 434x444px

>>8535060
I'm bored so I'll humor ur sophomoric thesis.
>I don't believe gender is innate… I think gender is simply what society says you are
it's both. if it wasn't, then whats the argument for having an incurable urge to be seen as a particular gender?

>In a world where society forces no gender roles on anyone…
in a world where OP isnt a faggot, u would've kys. hypotheticals like this are masturbatory. it's human nature to categorize and deconstruct the world into signs and symbols

>but that doesn't mean cutting off your dick… makes you a woman.
this is where ignorant cissies like u get it wrong. no one is trying to be “made” into a woman. trans women see themselves as women. they deconstruct what their respective cultural definition of “woman” is, and selectively adapt traits that will aid them in being identified as women. only delusional hons think they're “real” women. we're people in transit between gender, and (arguably) psychologically intersexed.

>I reject transgenderism, but I reject cisgenderism, too…
and I reject that u have a single neuron capable of critical thought. you have to understand that men and women are PHYSICALLY distinct, and that distinction invariably has an effect on psychological development and social expression

>I have a bigger problem with people permanently surgically and hormonally altering their bodies...
oh cool, so this whole time u were operating on bias anyways. what the fuck is with cisgender men (I can only assume that's what u are based on the shit u talk) being so morbidly obsessed with the physical aspect of transition? get the fuck over it. it's not ur body. worry about urself you pathetic fgt. hell, enjoy the show even. I'm bolting these tits on so pimply permavirgins like YOU don't call me “sir” when I come up to the register at McDonald's. now go get me that large fry, fuccboi

>>8535262

Those are different. Abortions and birth control don't permanently alter the body and there are good objective reasons as to why people might need to have access to them if they're minors (rape for abortion, if they are at a risk for unwanted pregnancy for birth control, etc.). But since the vast majority of "gender dysphoric" kids turn out otherwise as they grow older, and they would be making decisions that would permanently alter their bodies for the rest of their lives, I don't think kids are mature enough to decide such things for themselves yet.

Of course, I'm open to the possibility that the need to treat gender dysphoria trumps the risk, though.

>>8535327
>men and women are PHYSICALLY distinct, and that distinction invariably has an effect on psychological development and social expression
examples pls

>>8535327

>incurable urge

Incurable urge doesn't mean at all gender is innate. Non sequitur.

>it's human nature to categorize and deconstruct the world into signs and symbols

Just because humans have used gender as a construct in the past, or even that we are inclined to, doesn't mean we should. It's not a defense of anything. Non sequitur.

>this is where ignorant cissies like u get it wrong.

>no one is trying to be made into a woman

You know what I meant. Anyway, doesn't address what I've said. The whole point of that remark was to emphasize my denial of innate womanhood.

>you have to understand that men and women are PHYSICALLY distinct

I don't know how you could have read everything I've written so far and come to the conclusion that I thought otherwise.

>what the fuck is with cisgender men (I can only assume that's what u are based on the shit u talk) being so morbidly obsessed with the physical aspect of transition?

Again, are you sure you been reading my stuff? Haven't I already said I don't care about physical transitions? I'm trying to figure out a specific kind of gender theory that says people have innate genders.

Can you please stop getting yourself so upset? If you can't then you probably shouldn't be here, it's bad for your health.