I had somewhat of an epiphany while reading and participatin

>>8527678
When this is achieved, we won't have men, women or non-binary people. We'll simply have people. People who were born with vaginas and take testosterone and are hairy. People who were born with vaginas but preferred to have a penis so they had surgery to change that. People who were born with a penis but take estrogen and testosterone blockers and like wearing dresses. People who were born with penises and are big and hairy. Not cis men or trans men or trans women or cis women. Just people who live in the body that is most comfortable for them. This will be universal right in a communist society, similar to food, water and shelter and other forms of healthcare.

Then I started thinking about what dysphoria is exactly. Dypshoria as we understand it in a gendered society is gender dysphoria. But without gender, dysphoria still exists. The incongruence between the brain and the body that causes this suffering won't just go away. It is a biological fact that this incongruence exists. However it is also the case that some things we, as trans people, feel uncomfortable about some parts of ourselves that might not be due to dysphoria, but due to the assumptions tied to our assigned sex. For example, sometimes we change things about ourselves not because of dypshoria, but to "pass" better (i.e trick someone into thinking we are a cis person). To fit the assumptions made about us better. To be safe in a world where gender is violently enforced in many cases. I'm not saying this is a bad thing to do, it's necesairy for our own safety as trans people. I'm only saying that this would not be something we'd have to do in a world without gender.

>>8527680

It's odd, but the only way to destroy gender is to accept trans women as women, fully and trans men as men, fully and non-binary people as the gender they identify as, fully. In our gendered world, this is a reality, a social reality and we need to move on from that eventually, to untie gender from biology, fully, in all ways, in ways that are incomprehensible to us now, but not far out of reach to the people of the future, the people who have overthrown capitalism and patriarchy and racism and all that. In order to eliminate gender we need to accept people's genders (similar to how you need to form a worker's state to achieve a stateless society).


__________________________________________________________________________________________________

This was my last OP post

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>>8527678
>Men can have vaginas and women can have penises

>>8527678
Who's pic

>>8527691
she has a public profile but I didn't ask for permission to post her picture so I'd rather not say.

there are a lot of interesting assumptions here i'd like to impact, not in an aggressive way but simply in a curiousity/sharing knowledge way
my first question, sertii, is how probable you think this is -- do you think we live in a world where we can, in fact, achieve something like this? i don't mean 'a world' in the sense that we could achieve it in the current social context, because your revolutionary tendencies would skew the answer to that. i'm asking how likely you think that the fundamental 'rules' of sex/gender/the intersection between the two allow for a 'post-gender' world to exist at all. right now you seem to be putting a 100% probability on that, so i'm interested in knowing if i'm interpreting you as more optimistic than you are, and what research and philosophizing you've done to lead you to conclude how possible you think it is.
my other question, which leads on from that one, is -- what testable predictions can we make about a world where there's a 100% possibility that 'post-gender' is possible? what defined traits would sex/gender/the intersection have in a world where they're socially constructed in the way you suggest here? essentially, what evidence can we use to 'prove' or 'disprove' (using those terms in a weak sense rather than the strong one used in actual research) the existence of this world?

>>8527794
*unpack, not 'impact'

>>8527678
Gender identity
>innate
Gender roles
>social construct

STICKY THIS AND STOP THE NONSENSE

>>8527794

The very existence of transgender people is proof that this is possible. We are living proof that gender and biology are not the same. Sex is socially constructed as well and the existence of intersex people is proof of that. Now, as to how likely; basically it hinges on our society moving along to communism instead of sitting in capitalism and imploding in on itself.

>>8527805
>Gender identity
>>innate

No, there is *something* that is innate, and that is how your brain relates to your body. We have constructed gender around that and have connected this with a certain biology, but this is not the same thing.

>>8527794
also it goes without saying that I'm not entertaining your ideology, if that's what you meant to say

gosh you make me wanna write a dystopian novel

>>8527678
>deeply, deeply internalized in all of us
yeah, on a biological and neurological level

now back to gulag, commie scum

Hitler said the same thing not too long ago...

>>8528072
lol no he didn't

>>8528075
How is what you said, any different? Forcing a radical change in your ideal image?

>>8528087
oryx you're doing that thing where you just post without really paying any attention and end up not making sense I think.

>>8528090
Explain how you can change the world then.

>>8528114
idk dude it sounds like you're saying literally anyone who believes the world isn't eternally static is literally hitler.

>>8528118
you are promoting nothing but destructive totalitarian ideology that goes against humanity and human nature and at worst results in genocidal terror and it already killed millions, you are the same as neo-nzis - the non-iconic ones - because you know at least basic history

>>8528118
Isnt all of history reliant on the relationship between man and woman because of the physical differences resulting in what is called society? Literally

>>8528132
kill all the cis desu
>>8528138
LITERALLY

>>8528145
You have no argument. Were you high while on an epiphany?

>>8528153
i mean you didn't post an argument so what am i supposed to argue against lol

>>8527678
What a stupid conclusion. Facts are not assumptions.

>>8528154
reminder that your ridiculous intersectionality would only end in you toyrself being persecuted because you have the 'wrong' color of the skin, born in the 'wrong' sex and being not on the bottom of wealth distribution, or having 'wrong' ancestry

and under any communist regime you would've been dead (or maybe in prison for homosexuality)

>>8528179
t. 16 year old brainlet who thinks canned /pol/ arguments are clever

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>>8528211
Did you find a job yet?

>>8528154
Marx Honey

>>8527680
>For example, sometimes we change things about ourselves not because of dypshoria, but to "pass" better (i.e trick someone into thinking we are a cis person). To fit the assumptions made about us better.

But I have gender dysphoria because of not passing as female?

>>8527678
Gender is used to describe the sexes, in the case of humans, it's Male and Female. The real issue is when they're used interchangeably. The sad truth is that transgender people will NEVER be the biological sex they desire, unless some medical procedure comes along years later that can change biological sex. Gender, or the malformed version that feminism has turned it into, helps with cooping with this undeniable truth. Gender is tied to sex, it describes the sexes, and an overwhelming majority of men are masculine, an overwhelming majority of women are feminine, thus why it's used the way it is. Once you start fucking with the concept of gender, people are just going to start reverting to using the sex of a person, and then, no matter how many how many hormones you take or what organ you add or cut off, you'll be called by your unchangeable biological sex.

The only patriarchal structures left are in 3rd/2nd world, mainly in the gulf and middle east. Just try and convince those blood thirsty zealots to change, stronger and smarter people have tried. So long as two people in this world, they will find a reason to dislike one another, racism is and always will be, it's biologically engrained in humans in order to seek out the best interest for 'their' group and it's not JUST about race, different cultures and values play a large part of hate. The feminist movement also doesn't help in this regard, they're actually making it worse.
(Cont)

>>8528276
yeah, read the post again tho a few times
>>8528277
don't bother continuing this is a brainlet-tier response.

>>8528277
>>8527678
What do you have against Capitalism? If Communism was the law of the land, well, look at history. The Soviets had undesirables (LGBT people) sent to gulags, Che Guevara had them undergo indoctrination at reeducation camps and spoke of the inferiority of blacks regularly, and don't even get me started on Pol Pot. Capitalism has afforded you the ability to be who you are without being thrown in a dark cell or thrown off a building. If we achieved the world you want, it would be a nightmarish dystopia I'd dread to even imagine. People would be heavily consored, restricted, and resentful. It would inevitably fail.

>>8528299
Soooo, it's brainlet tier because I understand how the average person works? Because I'm not blind to the fact that people will always have a disagreement and these disagreements will lead to conflict? Yeah okay.

>>8528351
it's a brainlet tier response because you missed the point by a fucking mile. You're repeating what the world now and it's ideology is telling us, not really making a new point. The fact you think you are makes it a brainlet response.

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>itt: people who see "repressed" "egg" numales as TruWomen(TM) are forced to completely reinvent gender to relieve this cognitive dissonance

>>8528365
Simplify your ideology then. Imagine some of us here are unable to comprehend your wall of text and need a few sentences to understand your point.

>>8528408
that's your responsibility. If a piece of material is above your level you educate yourself and shut up, you don't say it's wrong because you don't get it.

>>8528412
Is this how you'd treat your grandmother after she asks a similar sentiment? Because it seems your logic relies heavily on the listen and believe method.

>>8528423
nah my grandmother is smarter than me honestly.

In any case you aren't my grandmother.

>>8528432
So how would your grandmother feel about this thread and the rhetoric presented?

>>8528436
pearls before swine

>>8528439
You are dictatorial.

>>8528365
You desire a world devoid of racism, sexism, patriarchal rule (direct or indirect), and that Capitalism/Current Cultural Norms are the contributing factors that cement the these concepts and those of 'gender'. And that with the fall of Capitalism would be the starting point or key factor of dismantling racism, gender, etc. But I'm telling you, these concepts predate Capitalism, that Patriarchal Societies are held up by religious fanatics in undeveloped/underdeveloped parts of our world, Theocracy is what perpetuates patriarchy in the modern world and will continue to in the future. Racism occurces in every part of the world, regardless of Economy/Government/Culture, again, you'd need to convince all these people from different cultures to stop their way thinking which are taught, naturally forming and develop from life experiences. The overall point is, you would need human beings to be part of a hive mind to achieve the future you want or have a large portion of humanity repressed, monitored, and controlled in a police state to maintain the illusion of this future. Racism will never go away, people will think what they want. Gender will always be needed, or will be replaced by simply using biological sex to label someone, because people need a means to properly describe others. Your ideals have beautiful intentions but the human condition is what thwarts it, and the worst regimes in history are built with the best intentions.

>>8528463
They are concepts that predate capitalism, indeed, but they are maintained and perpetuated by capitalism.

The rest of your post is just not true, you're saying that all these man-made ideas are inherent to human existence, which is the same type of bullshit people said about religions a few decades ago.

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>>8528318
Most of the West's achievements in equality were spurred on by leftist movements spawned in the 60s pressuring governments into action. In general, the people I know in the far-left have always been for LGBT rights while most of the liberals I know have only come around to tolerance in recent times.

Also, don't know much about the Cuban revolution (save that it happened in a traditionally Catholic nation, not the most LGBT friendly people to begin with) or Pol Pot (wasn't he more focused on killing intellectuals and religious people than he was LGBT?), but I do know that the USSR was at least among the first European nations to legalize homosexuality until Stalin came along to fuck it all up.

>>8528476
So, a single economic system is responsable for the perpetuation of concepts and ideals that are and have been a staple in multiple cultures all across the world? Even non-capitalist societies?

The concept of gender can be changed, it has changed over the years. Patriarchy isn't perpetuated by Capitalism, it's perpetuated by customs of people who can't get past 1000's of years of history and advance socially, mainly due to their religion that tells them men are above women. But 1st world, Capitalist and quasi-capitalist countries that are open for change have done so and NO modern capitalist country has a patriarchal rule, there were remnants of a patriarchal attitude some years ago where women weren't seen as completely equal by the state but that is no longer the case. But racism is prevalent in every culture, every race, from everywhere and always has been. From the mild assumptions based on one's race to full blown hatred. It will always exist, because of how humans are, they see someone who looks different, has different customs, etc, there is going to be a disagreement or pure dislike somewhere. Religion is a response to the unknown, it was used as a way to answer the questions of human origin and meaning of life. Of course people would argue that. But it's been disproven, and if you know human beings and how they think and how the world is shaped by people, you'll understand why there will always be conflict, one group of people will always not like another group either due to faith, politics, culture, race, etc. That will never go away, because no one person thinks exactly the same.
(Cont)

>>8528755
yes

>>8527678
>mfw a commie actually wants to destroy something that should be destroyed

>>8528514
The West's equality issues were mostly solved by bipartisanship in Europe, in America equality struggled because the Left (1℅ big plantationers) desired to keep men and women as slaves and convinced their poorer constituents that it was a matter of State Rights and that the federal government (which was Right lead at the time) was encroaching on them. When that failed, the Left in the US founded the Klu Klux Klan, a group they high jacked from rural southern vigilantes that dealt wife beaters and deadbeat dads, and fought against the advancement of Communism and equal rights for nonwhites. And feminists of the time were mostly made up of white women with rich husbands who fought for the right to vote without owning property, but only for white women's right to, no one else. Because at the time, white men and white women could vote but only if they owned property, and this excluded a large chunk of Americans as it was. Ultimately, every social advancement was both hindered and helped by the left in the west but at the end of the day, right and left came to a comprise.

Castro early on had gays sent to reeducation camps but later calmed down on this and voiced his regret for participating in it, but that doesn't change the fact that he did it. Pol Pot saw gays as 'enemies of the state' and often forced mtf trans people to be masculine by cutting off their hair and to have them act more 'manly' or face hard labour or death. Lenin, yes, he was okay with homosexuals, even made it legal for openly gay people to work government jobs but he wasn't too popular because of it, this and many other things, ambition, lead to his steady poisoning by Stalin and some of his own friends. When Stalin took over, he and his predecessors criminalized homosexuality until about, I believe it was 1993, but that's from memory. Point in this, was Stalin wasn't the only one against it, many others in the USSR were.

>>8527678
>a tripfag is actually completely right for once
This world gets scarier every day

>>8527920
Take some of the opposite sex's primary hormone and tell me there's no difference.

>>8527678
First I agreed, but then, oh boi, you started talking about these gulag things, oh boi...

>>8527920
You say gender dysphoria is biological because the brain doesn't fit the body.
Then you say that gender has no ties to biology.
???

So trans people are actually proof that gender and biology go hand in hand. Why else would a transwoman want to change her body to that of a cis woman?

You don't make any sense.

>>8529566
dysphoria can exist without gender

think about it a little

if you lived and grew up on island as the only person there dysphoria would still exist even though you've never heard of the concepts of man or woman.

>>8529624
Who raised the child though. Wolves? Birds?

>>8529650
it's a hypothetical scenario where we assume a lack of socialization

>>8529624
No it wouldn't.

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>>8527678

>>8529664
you're basically saying dypshoria can be cured given enough therapy then.

>>8529662
Is this the greek argument about knowledge coming from within, not outside? Who birthed the child? What is its ethnicity? Are there remnants of their past lying around to key in clues?

>>8529624
You can never get rid of gender. If you think about it, gender is just a bunch of prejudices.
They don't even exist on a conscious level. Our brain needs that to deal with all the information. If you removed gender you'd need to completely evaluate every person you meet on the streets.
That would be too much, soon you'd start to just assume that everyone who looks like a biological man has a penis, that he has a deep voice, that he grows lots of body hair, that he is stronger, that he gets more aggressive than bio women. You'd end up with gender again.

>>8529678
it's an ideal thought experiment where we show how gender is basically a social construct. I didn't impose any outside ideas on it, so I don't see why this is an issue.

Oryx please you have severe autism and you cannot comprehend things like this, in addition you always get upset at lefty ideology so I don't see why you insist on posting here other than harassing me.

>>8529679
>You can never get rid of gender.
is a direct contradiction to
>If you think about it, gender is just a bunch of prejudices.

>If you removed gender you'd need to completely evaluate every person you meet on the streets.
I mean yeah that's the goal honestly. You see every person as a person and don't fit them inside a box loaded with assumptions.

>>8529700
Wow, you didnt even bother to look up anamnesis and use hyperbole and name calling to dismiss not very well thought out idea. Maybe you should think a little more about how a person would behave if left alone all by themselves on a deserted island from birth. Maze runner explored this concept but that was from an amnesiatic stand point. Now go ahead, call me another name because Im challenging your opinion.

>>8529700
But that doesn't work. We categorize everything for a reason. We need that to process information fast.

That is how our brain works.

>>8529624
>if you lived and grew up on island as the only person there dysphoria would still exist
[citation needed]

If the human psyche is made up of memory and human emotions along with those memories, would the absolute rejection of one's memories cause an epiphany such as op's?

>>8529715
Is maze runner really your go to source for thinking about idealized situations and lack of socialization?

really??

also I called you autistic not as an insult, but because I know that you are, most of my close friends have autism and I probably have some mild form of autism as well, I can smell this shit from a mile away.

>>8529722
It doesn't work because you're used to doing the opposite and that's how your brain works now, not because that's how humans inherently function.

>>8529749
All of the biological evidence behind the existence of dysphoria that exists.

>>8529749
so you believe that dysphoria is socially caused and not biological?

>>8529774
So no evidence.

>>8529774
When you met up with Nicole, did she take you to Muse? Its a cool lesbian club. Anyways, if you're such an expert on memory and the human condition name another piece of media that explores your concept in better conditions. Infact, write an entire essay as to way gender is a social construct and publish it here for everyone to share and critique. You already wrote the wall of text up above, Im sure you can write some more brilliant ideas.