Question for Transgender people (is there gender at all?)

>continuing here
The more I think about it, more I convince myself that gender does not exist. Or at least the social aspect of gender. According to google a transgender person is a '' person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.'' What is a sense of personal identity? I don't wake up every morning with the ''sense'' that I am a woman. I don't wear dresses or make up because of the ''sense'' that I am a woman. As far as I'm concerned, being a woman is not a feeling. Neither is being a man. Transgender people that have not transitioned yet (they have not started hormones and have not underwent procedures for changing their sex) claim to be another gender and justify that by only wearing different clothes and painting or not painting their faces. By cutting their hair or letting their hair grow. Is that all that gender is? Clothes and paint? Manners? Ways of talking and behaving in social situations?

>>8518989
All of this is assigned to the sex you are born with by society. Years of developing the two genders on this planet and making sure they are different and distinguishable. Being so distinct, being so feminine or so masculine is the only way to tell society hey I AM this gender and this is important for me. And at the same time the LGBTQA+ community is the community that wants so desperately to end gender binary. Girls in that community cut their hair short, boys wear full faces of make up and all of these people deny the existance of these two genders by taking away their distinguishable features. And right next to these people, in the same community, there are transgendered people that bring these gender norms right back because that is all that gender is. Don't you think that being transgender is just another way to claim the two genders and to further confirm their existance? Do you think that if suddenly the whole world ditched gender norms and let everyone do whatever they wanted (e.g. girls being bald, boys wearing dresses yada yada yada) transgenderism would still exist? And if so, then isn't transgenderism just a need of a different body part and not a need of a different identity (when the identity is not asigned to said body part)?
Again I am not hating on anyone neither saying that being transgender is wrong.

>LBTQA+
Choke on some mints.

>>8519015
Still doesn't answer any of the questions

>>8518982
>is there gender at all?
no. /thread

Dunno what you expect posting at places like these.

>>8519038
Than why the fuck do people continue being trans or cis or whatever gender why doesn't everyone just rely on what they have between their legs to determin what pronouns to use and just dress, talk, behave any way they want

>>8519060
why should we get pronouned based on genitals?

>>8519066
I don't really know about that, just to give it a more organised feeling. In a world where everyone could dress, act, wear make up however they want we would need at leas one thing to destingush which people have a dick and which people have a vagina. Entirely for reproduction purposes.

>>8518989
>I don't wake up every morning with the ''sense'' that I am a woman.
>Therefore everyone else must feel the same way

>>8519089
>we would need at leas one thing to destingush which people have a dick and which people have a vagina. Entirely for reproduction purposes.
"do you have a dick or do you have a vagina?"

>>8519104
Yeah, sure they don't, but whoever I've talked to agrees that gender isn't a feeling. Do you feel a certain gender?
>>8519107
Seems like too much of a hassle, might as well ditch pronouns overall if we are going to ask that question in this particular world.

>>8519111
>might as well ditch pronouns overall
exactly

>>8519118
Yeah, okay, but I still don't get why people feel the need to ''act'' like any gender. The questions still remain.

>>8518989
>What is a sense of personal identity? I don't wake up every morning with the ''sense'' that I am a woman.
That's the sensation of being cis.
This is like trying to understand depression and saying "I don't wake up every morning and with the sense that nothing matters and I might as well die," or to someone with chronic pain, "As far as I'm concerned, being in pain is not a feeling." It's just something that's really hard to explain to someone who doesn't feel it, as much as that sounds like a copout.

>Is that all that gender is?
No, but those are social aspects of gender, and if a trans woman wants to be treated like a woman, adopting these feminine symbols are a good way to communicate to people "I'd like to be treated as a woman."
Internally, they can also just feel nice, both because it's nice to align yourself with things that your culture associates with your desired sex/gender, and because some people are just genuinely into that sort of stuff. Why do you wear dresses? Just because. Same goes for plenty of trans women, it's just what comes naturally.
These are just the things you can see. You can't see the internal drive behind them, and not many people are capable of articulating it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

>Years of developing the two genders on this planet and making sure they are different and distinguishable.
What? The sexes are already plenty distinguishable. Superficial differences like clothing etc is just a natural result of sexual dimorphism, not a carefully organised method of telling people apart.

>the LGBTQA+ community is the community that wants so desperately to end gender binary
No, this is a specific ideology that happens to involve a lot of alphabet soup members. There are plenty of us who are fine with the gender binary, and plenty of cishet people who want to dismantle it.
You're conflating two large, if overlapping, groups and treating them like a hivemind. Of course there are going to be contradictions.

>>8519121
because they learned to

because learning it makes sexuality a part of it

>>8519089

There's a shitload more differences between men and women than their genitals. You can generally tell the sex of as much as a blob in the distance. Humans didn't excel as a species for nothing, we know what to fuck. We didn't have lipstick and bowties when we lived in caves.

>>8519104
>>8519131
But can you explain what your trans "sense of being a woman" is?

>>8519131
Thank you for the long answer!

>That's the sensation of being cis.
I agree that it may be hard for me to comprehend because of the fact that I'm cis and have never felt it, but still - what would ''feeling like a woman'' feel like? Probably something like feeling vulnerable, wanting protection, feeling feminine, being drawn to feminine things and activities. But doesn't that make it all sexist? There are plenty masculine cis women that don't necessarily feel feminine, does that mean they are not women?

>Same goes for plenty of trans women, it's just what comes naturally.
Yes, but wearing dresses has nothing to do with gender. It comes naturally not because I'm a woman, but because I like dresses. Same goes for some men, it might come naturally to them to do feminine things but they don't because they are afraid of judgement. Imagine a world where we don't wear clothes, how would you know if you want to be feminine? Also, in a world where everyone is treated equally despite their gender, how world transgender women know that they want to be treated like women?

>You're conflating two large, if overlapping, groups and treating them like a hivemind.
Maybe. Yet there are plenty trans people that are against gender binary and demand equality for all genders.

All of the gender role arguments aside people would still have to transition medically due to body dysohoria. So being in a world where everyone can do whatever doesn't really remove trans people.

>>8518993
>Again I am not hating on anyone neither saying that being transgender is wrong.

This really irks me. Just because you're saying you aren't hateful doesnt mean you are not.

Your innate ramblings are nigh unreadable, but you're somewhat correct. The LGBTQ community is in favour of abolishing gender, but we also understand it wont happen overnight, nor should we bash people that have grown up in a culture that supports it. Even if you don't have a strong 'feeling' for your gender, most women do.

>>8519189
Why do trans people care about both gender role and body? Shouldn't it be one or the other depending on what trans is?

>>8519189
I'm not aware of what body dysohoria is so I googled it and it corrected it to Body Dysmorphia disorder. Which, as far as I'm concerned has next to nothing to do with gender.

>>8519155
Not really, I gotta go to bed.
But it's not so much a sense of being a woman so much as it's dissonance and/or distress from being a man. It's called gender dysphoria if you haven't heard the term, might be worth looking up if you don't find what you're looking for here.

But as a quickie, do you think as a woman you'd be upset if you woke up tomorrow to find your tits had fallen off, your face had become wide and bony, and you were hairy all over? Don't think of it like being 'a man,' it's still all you, you still look down at your body expecting to see what you've always seen, feel what you've always felt, but it's all wrong, and you can never get used to it.

>>8519171
>Probably something like feeling vulnerable, wanting protection, feeling feminine, being drawn to feminine things and activities.
Those are superficial cultural things. Many trans women might relate to them, just like many cis women do, but that's not the core of the issue it's just a side effect.

>Yes, but wearing dresses has nothing to do with gender.
That's sort of my point. The fact that most trans women happen to like wearing dresses is for the same reason most cis women happen to like wearing dresses, they just do, but that's not the thing that makes either group women.

>Imagine a world where we don't wear clothes, how would you know if you want to be feminine?
Because it's about the physical, the rest is just gravy.

>>8519198
>The LGBTQ community is in favour of abolishing gender
We are? I must have missed that meeting.

>>8519198
I'm sorry if I left the impression that I hate any group of people with my question. I wouldn't be asking so many questions and I wouldn't be genuinely interested if I was coming from a place of hate.
Also I apologise for my ''nigh unreadable ramblings'', English isn't my first language, tho I thought I was doing pretty good. Anyway.
How can a community want to put an end to something and at the same time support so strongly people that emphasise it? Legalising gay marriage is not happening overnight but we don't support people that have grown up in a culture that votes against it.

>>8519199
Gender role can reinforce that you don't have the proper body.

But even in a work without gender roles pronoun usage would be problematic. Ima world where she = vagina, he = penis
Every time a transwomen is called he it's a reminder that their body is fucked up and doesn't match their brain structure.


That's in a world where there at no gender roles etc.

In the real world those pronouns have a ton more bagage with them.

File: Gender Chromosomes.jpg (36KB, 496x369px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 496x369px

>>8518982

>>8519205
>But as a quickie, do you think as a woman you'd be upset if you woke up tomorrow to find your tits had fallen off, your face had become wide and bony, and you were hairy all over?
Of course I'd be upset. Thats the same thing as asking me would I be upset if I woke up with five arms instead of two. I would be upset by the change, not by what change it is. Weird comparison you are making there, transgender people live with the bodies they are born with, they don't just lose them overnight? What you are explaining is gender dysphoria, but this is a mental disorder, in other words something abnormal. So is being transgender a mental disorder?

>Those are superficial cultural things.
Thats my point. The feeling of being a woman is the feeling that you are bound to have of being a woman, something superficial, something that society has created for you. It is not real.

>Because it's about the physical, the rest is just gravy.
Again we come to the conclusion that being transgender is about wanting to change your body, not that much your clothes or attitude.

>>8519241
>Again we come to the conclusion that being transgender is about wanting to change your body, not that much your clothes or attitude.
Yes.

>>8519235
So trans women don't deep down want to be called she or wear dresses or have female names, they just have to because of the psychological associations the male versions of those things have with their male body?

>>8519243
So at the end you are saying that being transgender means having gender dysphoria, in other words being transgender means having a mental disorder? I'm not making fun or anything, just want to have a conclusion.

Poor OP...

>>8519257

There's a LOT of controversy over whether or not it's a disorder, since that term has a lot of baggage and implications. Many would say it's a disorder, many would vehemently disagree. Personally, given the fact that it's alleviated through medical treatment and impairs one's quality of life when left untreated, yes I view it as a disorder.

>>8519270
Is this the same person I had the conversation about the ''sense of being a woman''?
>>8519269
OP is actually glad to see a discussion over this. Guess I wasn't the only one wondering.

>>8519247
I'm not a psychologist so j can't say anything definitive. I just know that the single biggest aspect of transition for me was dealing with body dysohoria through hrt and my pending surgery.

The other things I already wanted tons but couldn't because of ridicule. So being able to do them now is just icing on the cake. Other people might feel different than me.

>>8519217
You would have done better with some line breaks and narrower paragraphs. Either way, you don't need to 'intend' to be hostile, to be hostile.

Transwomen emphasisze as 'strongly' with it as most cis women do. Start your inquiry and research there.

>>8519211
Well, not the one on 4chan at least. Or maybe at all. Sorry, I expressed myself poorly.

>>8519297
Also I'm not sure where names fit in but I also had my female name planned since I was like 10 maybe a bit before.

>>8519060
gender dysphoria isn't a lifestyle choice

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/htmlview

>>8519299
>Well, not the one on 4chan at least.
No, you're right.There was no official meeting on deciding that the LGBT community wants to abolish gender on any social platform, but its a fact. It has been going on for a while now.

>>8519297
So your main problem was your body image? Now that you've changed that and achieved the body image you wanted, do you put extra effort into ''acting'' a certain way to fall into the ''woman'' category?
Do you think that if we lived in a world where you wanting to dress and act like a girl wouldn't be ridiculed you would still want to change your body? And if yes, it boils down to gender dysphoria once again...

>>8519327
>And if yes, it boils down to gender dysphoria once again...
Why do you keep saying this like it's a bad thing?

>>8519333
It's not. I keep saying it because so many people keep talking about the ''sense of being a woman'' or how you ''want to be treated like a woman'' (or a man) and then talk about how its only physical. From what I am hearing it has absolutely nothing to do with ''feeling'' a certain gender, all it has to do is with not liking what you see in the mirror.

>>8519327
many trans people suffer from internalised queerphobia and feel a need to conform to traditional gender roles rather than subverting them by being their true flamboyant gender nonconforming selves. I think that's just sad : (

>>8519327
I would have changed my body regardless.

>>8519338

I mean, they pretty much go hand in hand, it's just about what the root cause is. Dysphoria can certainly be described as simply as feeling like a certain gender, the distinction only matters when it comes to misconceptions like thinking trans women are just men who like dresses.

>>8519364
Thats the thing. Wouldn't it be much nicer and much more intelligent if there was no such thing as ''men who like dresses'' and just people who like dresses. People who like or dislike wearing make up. People who like or dislike wearing heels. People who are emotional or unemotional. Why do we feel the need to connect certain character traits to gender? Or certain clothing pieces? Or certain life styles?
I get that body dysmorphia still is a thing. And people who suffer from it should be able to undergo the needed procedures. But none of that has to do with wearing dresses. Or wigs. Or anything.
Wouldn't it be better for us to strive for a world where everything is allowed for everyone and gender is determined by what is between your legs or what you eventually feel the need to put between your legs?

>>8519377
Why determine it by what's between the legs? What's with this compulsive need to connect genitals to gender?

>>8519392
This. Genders based off personality are more informative of the person. Why notndo it that eay?

>>8519377
Because this is the society we live in. Transpeople are abiding the rules, and you're in the wrong for calling them out on it, just because they bring it to the lime light.

You're right to be against gender. I am a transwoman and I dont like the concept. I am 'traditionally' feminine. And I am not the one that's carrying gender roles on my back.

>>8519398
>>8519392

gender is a social construct. being unsatisfied with your body should have nothing to do with gender. Everyone should be free to wear dresses and make up to express themselves though.You can wear dresses and have a beard. but the idea that gender is this metaphysical thing, that you can truly be a certain gender, is rather backwards and plays into the hands of the sexist right wingers who think 'women' should act a certain way and 'men' should act a certain way.

>>8519392
Fine, not what is between their legs but what they feel shoud be between their legs. This is what being trans generally is, a feeling that they have to change their sex. Body dysphoria.

>>8519400
I'm not calling anyone out on anything. The more people obey to it the more it will florish and it will continue to exist. Trans people bring as much to the table as cis people that obey it. The difference is that trans people fall into a community that is generally against gender binary and they themselves are against it most of the time.

>>8519453
My point precisely.

>>8519333
Not her but the fact is if being trans is just about your body then there's no reason to be accepted or want to be accepted as the opposite gender socially when it comes to gender roles.

>>8519454

All is I am saying is that a lot of transwomen already agree anyway, AND, they are an insignificant fraction of the gender-supporting society.

>>8519454
>>8519377
>>8519453

If wanting to abolish gender roles is your goal, then you should talk to a cis audience and not a trans one. Accusing trans peolpe of indirectly supporting the right because they try to avoid further discrimination is just disgusting.

Like >>8519400 said, trans people are merely playing by the roles not supporting them.

Furthermore, from what you write it sounds like you don't want to abolish gender, but rather society penalizing those who deviate from what is expected.

>>8519522
queers should challenge gender norms not reinforce them,that's what being queer is all about. I see nothing wrong with calling out people who promote backwards attitudes that lead to discrimination against their fellow queers or imply they are somehow less valid.

>>8519568
>queers should

I should kick your teeth in for suggesting I do anything for the sake of the hole I desire to fuck.

Collectivistfags always try to be LE VOICE OF LE COLLECTIVE and pretend they're CULTURE CRUSADERS whenever they defend their "COLLECTIVE SANCTIONED OPINIONS!!!111one"

I fucking hate Communists and their LARPing e-collectivist faggotry. Act like yourself not the representative of an ant hive you reject.

>>8519568
Stop imposing your ideology on people. What they should and shouldn't do is entirely their business not yours.

>>8519568
Agreed. I am accusing everyone equaly. Do you really think that cis males like the fact that it is not socially acceptable for them to cry? Or that cis females are expected to be so fragile and conform to so many norms? Everyone has their own struggle with these norms. Cis people are born into them. You are born a girl and you are expected to act like a girl, to dress like a girl, to be treated like a gir. Transgender people are born into them and have the opportunity to try and break them. To show people that gender has nothing to do with lifestyle. As this person said, thats the point of being queer. Promoting and conforming to gender roles as trasngender people is just going against the whole gender unconforming LGBT community. It's contradictory on every level.
>>8519491 said it. If being trans is just body dysphoria, there is no need of change of clothes or attitude or any of these stuff.

>>8519601
another worthless antfaggot claiming to speak for the "whole gender uncomforming LGBT communitaaaayyy" because he's LE VOICE OF LE COLLECTIVE he be like STALIN yo!!!! sending us cretinous NON LEFTIST LGBT to the cyber gulags!

it'd be hilarious if it weren't so SAD

>>8519592
>>8519584

What people should and shouldn't do is definitely their own business but isn't that what trans people are doing with gender? A transgender woman ''proving'' that she is a woman by wearing certain clothes, by painting her face with make up, by letting her hair grow long. And claiming that this is what it takes to be a woman, isn't that in a way telling other women what it takes to be a woman?

>>8519610
>Transwomen need to dress up/makeup/grow hair out to be transwomen

Are you outing the fact you consider transgirls men? I think you are.

>>8519615
I am not ''outing'' anything. If I tought that trans women were men I would've stated that in the first post I made and I wouldn't bother actually trying to understand.
The fact that transwomen and men need to confirm to some gender norms so that they can ''fit in'' is a fact. Same goes for cis women and men.

>>8519615
biological sex is a spectrum in its own right and has nothing at all to do with gender or gender roles. 'man' and 'woman' are social constructs that shouldn't get in the way of self expression.

>>8519622
>men need to conform to anything

stopped reading there

here's how much I'll confirm to your non-opinions:

>>8519625
>biological sex is a spectrum

2/10 stop worshiping people with Klinefelter's and Turner's

>>8519626
You really think men don't have to comform to anything? What about masculinity? What about being the protective figure that always has to look after everyone? What about always being strong and brave?

>>8519568
it's not on us alone to carry the weight of the world

>>8519622
>>8519610

Ever considered the possibility that trans people have a vested interested in conforming to gender norms?
Being non-conforming is not exactly productive to being the way you want to be seen.
People seeing you as a woman rather than an unusual male is a lot more important than some political statement for quite some people it seems.
And it is simply a fact that you have prove your gender in our current society if you want to be seen as the gender you want to be seen as.
Extensively doing what is deemed feminine or masculine is simply a way to achieve that and not a way of telling people that this is what a woman or man is.

>>8519674
This is how this discussion began. I was saying that in a world where genders are equal and were treated equaly and were seen as equal nobody would want to be ''treated like a woman'' or ''seen as a man'' or whatever else. That type of society would be a much better environment not only for trans and cis people but for uncomforming people or just boys that want to wear dresses or girls that want to grow a beard. But in order to get to this society we have to start ditching things as ''I want to be seen as a man/woman'' or ''I want to be treated'' or ''I want to look like''. Transgenderism is body disphoria before all else. This should be taken care of for the sake of the mental health of the transgender person, but everything else is gender binary and is continuing to divide genders.

>>8519584
queers are against the collective and it's norms. queer liberation is smashing the gender binary, individual liberation from gender norms and sexual categories. either you are for it or you are against it.

>>8519722
Yeah.
It's almost ridiculous. Trans people on here posting threads asking if they pass...If they pass as what? As the construct of a woman or a man? As what society thinks a woman should look like? Yeah, anyone could pass as a woman if they slather on enough make up, let their hair grow long and take the picture from a certain angle. Same goes for ''passing'' as a man. ''Do I pass'' in other words do I look like the gender I feel like. There shouldn't be a certain face that we connect to dicks or vaginas. There should just be dicks and vaginas and seperately from that different types of styles, features, faces.

>>8519691
I don't think that's the correct place to start.
Asking the least empowered and most vulnerable of our society to lead that fight is highly irresponsible.
And while it may be true that gender dysphoria about the body plays an important part in transgenderism it doesn't end there. It is not just a desire for a female or male body, but also for being treated as such. Giving people shit for not wanting to be treated as the gender they were born as is simply being an asshat.
So if you want to abolish gender roles find cis and trans people alike that support that proposition, but for the love of god don't demand oppressed minorities to spearhead your ideology. That is just beyond disgusting on its own and unfathomably more so when you're not part of those communites but rather the privileged majority.

>>8519200
Gender dysphoria disorder (AKA: body dysphoria) is different from Body dysmorphia disorder.

>>8519750
I AM part of these communities. Being transgender without the body dysphoria is just liking certain make up and certain clothes.

Asking the least empowered and most vulnerable of our society to lead that fight is highly irresponsible.
I am not asking anyone to lead the fight. I am asking everyone to not continue it.

>It is not just a desire for a female or male body, but also for being treated as such.
In a society where every gender is treated equally, how would one know that one wants to be treated as a woman?
There is no such thing as ''treated like a gender''. And if a person states that they want to be treated as a gender or that there is a certain way to treat a gender...Thats pure sexism.

>>8519766
Gender dysphoria is a type of Gender Dysmorphia.
But even if they had nothing to do with each other, they are both mental disorders.

>>8519777
a type of Body Dysmorphia*

>>8519766
Fuck off, Austen.

>>8519750
I wasn't born the King.
But I want to be treated like the King.
I'm gonna need y'all to bow down and worship me, and call me Your Majesty.
If you don't then you're an asshat.
I'm gonna go make a youtube video and complain about how bigots won't worship me like the King that I am!
I demand this!!

File: 463.jpg (393KB, 800x1115px) Image search: [Google]

393KB, 800x1115px

>>8518982
i'm a binary transgirl

i feel like 72+ genders invalidates transpeople and makes us look like a dumb trend or that being trans is a choice

the only choice i ever made was to stop lying to myself and to everyone around me pretending to be a lifeless husk of a man for 24 years

>>8519807
Conservatives would still hate you, even if those '72 gender people' didn't exist. Its this sort of backwards rationalization that really grinds my gears.

>>8519807
The other 72+ genders have nothing to do with this. Altho I kind of agree.

>>8519807
what? do you want those '72 gender people' to keep lying to themselves? Even if you throw your fellow queers under the bus, heteronormative society isn't going to accept you. That's why we gotta smash the gender binary, so everyone can be themselves

>>8519772
>I am not asking anyone to lead the fight. I am asking everyone to not continue it.

Where else are you advocating for your ideas?

>There is no such thing as ''treated like a gender''.

Literally anyone that left the house at least once will notice that people treat each other differently based on gender. To not realize this simple factuality implies you've not participated in society since you were born.

>And if a person states that they want to be treated as a gender or that there is a certain way to treat a gender...Thats pure sexism.

That is non sequitur. Sexism is discriminating people based on their gender. You are again blaming trans people for not wanting to be reminded of their birth gender at every social interaction.

>>8519830
Thats the thing. This girl is stating that she is binary. It's not only body dysphoria. It's not only the sex she needed to change. She wanted to be ''treated'' like a girl, to ''look'' like a girl, to ''act'' like a girl.
If it was just the body dysphoria, if it was only the sex you needed to change there is literally nothing wrong with that. The moment you put ''binary'' in it, the moment you start dressing a certain way not because you like it but because you believe it carries gender with it you are a sexist piece of cake.

>>8519830
maybe i just haven't really met anyone who's genderqueer but at first glance it makes me think they're just trying to make a new identity out of their repression (male or female) without ever having the courage to actually transition

>>8519843
Sexism is DIVIDING people based on their gender, not only discriminating them based on it. Sexism is anything that involves ''you have to do that in order to be that gender''.
I get that genders get treated differently. And they will continue until there are trans people walking around talking how they want to be ''treated like'' a woman or a man. How about wanting to be treated like a person? How about dressing however you like without connecting it with the thing you have or want to have between your legs?

>>8519830
I have a medical disorder that needs treatment, not a fashion statement.

>>8519866
EXACTLY

>>8519241
>Weird comparison you are making there, transgender people live with the bodies they are born with, they don't just lose them overnight?
Being trans feels like that, though. You feel like you wake up with a body different than the one you remember having every single day of your life. At least to me.

>So is being transgender a mental disorder?
Dodgy subject. Officially, it's not a mental illness, yet it's not clear what it may be. Knowing how things like language and psychology can be affected by the current political agenda, and LGBT stuff being very relevant, the current psychological state of gender dysphoria is on stand-by because whatever answer would make lots of people throw massive hissy-fits. There are some studies that say that it could be a form of neural intersexualism, though.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/htmlview

>Thats my point. The feeling of being a woman is the feeling that you are bound to have of being a woman, something superficial, something that society has created for you. It is not real.
If the feelings of "being a man" or "being a woman" weren't real, then how could trans people exist?
Both of these are hard to pinpoint. I'm a female to male transexual, and even then I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what any of these mean. It isn't a thing that's usually analized objectively, since most people just take the social aspects of both to analize them, maybe it's in our insticts to feel a certain way that's linked to our genitalia?

>Again we come to the conclusion that being transgender is about wanting to change your body, not that much your clothes or attitude.
You desire to change your body, but also your clothes, mannerisms, etc., to accomodate with your gender, because they make you feel more acute with your gender and make people treat you as your desired gender.

>>8519866
>>8519869

>>8519872
>If the feelings of "being a man" or "being a woman" weren't real, then how could trans people exist?

lots of trans people grew up exposed to heteronormative ideologies, resulting in internalised sexism and queerphobia. if people were allowed to be fabulous and do whatever they want with their bodies regardless of gender roles this wouldn't happen.

>>8519858
>Sexism is DIVIDING people based on their gender
Sexism is by definition discrimination not division.
When you divide two equal things you are not devaluing one of them. If you want to say divide and discriminate then sexism is not the word you are looking for.

>How about wanting to be treated like a person?
How is that relevant? You get treated like a person no matter what you look like. This however does not apply to being read as the gender of your choice.
And what makes you think 'dressing the way you want' will make everyone mix male and female clothing?
Ever thought that perhaps the way people dress is how they want to dress?

>>8519866
who are you to tell people they are not valid?

>>8519908
who are you to tell them that they are?

>>8519928
isn't that basically what you are doing by telling enbys of being just in it for 'fashion'?

>>8518982
You've missed the point.

Gender exists in the same manner as race. Race defines roughly 3-8% of genetic diversity, and has little actual bearing on physiology. Gender, similarly, is not based on sex but outward appearance, as we can quickly classify (in most cases) a person's gender without a microscope handy.

Yet socially race causes MANY correspondents (i.e. Higher obesity rates, income inequality, likeliness of thinking mayo is spicy, etc) and gender is no different.

No matter how you cut it, people who are male will be treated differently than females and people who are trans will be treated differently than either, despite whether or not these gender cues are followed or not. When a mtf does their hair, makeup, nails, etc it is about appearing as feminine as they can be so they can correspond as closely as they can to gender stereotypes so that they are classified as such. Each trans person has their own reasons for doing so (social acceptance, enjoying the acts themselves, identity, beauty, dick; usually a mixture of these)

I don't speak for all trans, of course, yet this seems to me the most levelheaded approach.

Tl;dr our innate ability to classify and generalize is what comprises gender and us transgenders just want to fit in with the category we feel most comfortable in so we can be accepted/feel pretty/get dick

>>8519661
but neither should you make it heavier for other people. binary privilege is real, even among the trans community.

Lets just throw down some high level Jungian psychology.

We all identify with particular archetypes, and progress towards them is wired directly into our rewards system. If you deny this you are full of shit or don't actually understand your true motivations.

Trans women identify with a female archetype but society says they can't, this causes "gender dysphoria".

Doesn't matter what culture you stick them in, this is always going to be present.

>>8519994
So, according to Jung, are there more than just the male and the female archetype?
Like are there non-binary archtypes?

File: 1377594218780.jpg (40KB, 625x490px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 625x490px

>>8519992
>binary privilege is real

>>8520012
I don't know what they identify as, but most likely a pretentious victim.
They want to feel wronged and make people feel sorry for them.

>>8520012
Male/female are more a category for archetypes than archetypes themselves.

>>8519908
>valid
This is one of those Tumblr buzzwords that gets thrown around so much that it's nearly lost all meaning.

>1. having legal efficacy or force; especially : executed with the proper legal authority and formalities a valid contract
>2. well-grounded or justifiable; being at once relevant and meaningful a valid theory; logically correct
>3. appropriate to the end in view; effective
>4. of a taxon: conforming to accepted principles of sound biological classification

So no, non-binary gender identities are not valid because all the "arguments" for them are emotion-based (enough people have these feelings that it's Bad and Wrong to dismiss them). Non-binaries identify as something that does not exist in humans except in very rare cases of true hermaphrodism. Some humans identify with all their heart and soul that they are wolves or dragons or fictional characters; they're no more valid than non-binaries.

>>8519872

> You feel like you wake up with a body different than the one you remember having every single day of your life.
Does it happen all of a sudden? I tought you were born with it?

>If the feelings of "being a man" or "being a woman" weren't real, then how could trans people exist?
They exist to the extent of body dysphoria. The social aspect of it doesn't exist. The social aspect is just clothes, make up and attitude.

>>8519896
Thats my point.

>>8519906
You are right, I didn't express myself the right way. But still, saying how a woman should act, dress or be treated in order to be a woman is not right, it is dividing and it is discriminatory to women who happen to not comform to these stereotypes.

>>8519994
>Trans women identify with a female archetype but society says they can't, this causes "gender dysphoria".
Someone here and many people out of this thread claim that gender dysphoria is the first red light to transgenderism. And all of the other things like comforming to the archetype of the gender come afterwards. In a world where everyone is naked and gets treated the same way, gender dysphoria will still exist, therefore it is the only real thing in the whole situation.

>>8519991
I agree that gender is based on outward appearance. And I do agree that male and females get treated differently.
But gender and sex are two different things. Sex is what you are born with, what sex you are is what organ you have. Gender, however, is something developed by society to distinguish sexes. Gender is not real. I get why trans women have to be extra feminin and have to strive to achieve this stereotype so that people can understand that they have changed their sex, but I also have a problem with that because they help in pushing an agenda of something that only restricts people from being what they want without needing to comform. Especially being in the LGBT communiti, which we have already established that is trying so desperately to get rid of gender and yet supports blindly people who say that they want to ''look like a proper girl'' or ''act like a bloke'' which is just further dividing the genders and continuing the agenda.

I'm late to the party.
Bump.

File: 28-074.jpg (75KB, 439x285px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 439x285px

>>8519807
i came to post this.

I also believe that there are only 2 genders and having 72+ genders is ridiculous, it's embarrassing and i honestly don't even participate or identify myself with the LGBT community IRL as it's pretty much a joke a this point.

why are we even in lgbT?
LGB are sexualities.
being trans has nothing to do with it.

>>8520258
Now thats just a bit ignorant.

>>8520258
>I am unique and different but other people who say they are, are "pretty much a joke"

lel

>>8520266
it might be, not gonna debate that. but i felt compelled toe express my opinion :3

>>8520271
actually quite the opposite, i don't even mention to anyone I'm trans, i don't wanna be special and have things made for me differently. im just one more girl in this world and want to be treated and just like everyone else.

File: magaagagag.jpg (95KB, 710x664px) Image search: [Google]

95KB, 710x664px

>>8520284
>i don't even mention to anyone I'm trans, i don't wanna be special and have things made for me differently. im just one more girl in this world and want to be treated and just like everyone else.

preach

>>8520284
>i don't even mention to anyone I'm trans
>I'm trans

newsflash, you just did
>lacking self-awareness 10/10

>>8519247
Being called she is a big thing particular for me but wearing dresses isnt necessarily important. Everyone is different. Im still a pretty masculine tom botyish trans woman

>>8520329
>implying admitting it on /lgbt/ is the same thing

>>8520191
You are making sweeping generalizations again. Where and when has it been established that the entire LGBT community desperately wants to get rid of gender?

And supporting people who get enough shit from literally everyone for wanting to be read as their preferred gender is just simple courtesy.
Furthermore accusing this infinitessimal fraction of the human population of dividing the genders and continuing 'the agenda' is just mindbogglingly stupid.
These people have no obligation to follow your ideology and you should feel bad for trying to make them look like the bad guys when they don't.
There's so few of them anyway that saying they have any significant influence on gender norms is borderline ridiculous.
Ignoring that fact you run into the problem that you're asking a group that is barely being taken seriously to change how 99% of the population think.
If that is not madness then I don't what is.

Why are you so hellbent on pushing your agenda anyway?
And why do you try to bully everyone else into supporting it?
Why are you painting the picture that people merely trying to escape discrimination and ostracision are the problem?
And what exactly do you mean by abolishing gender?
Getting rid of discrimination I can understand, but what exactly does getting rid of gender entail?
What are the benefits?
Why should people support it?

And lastly, perhaps you wants to consider that a lot of people are completely fine with distinct gender roles, and that there's a vested interest in having dimorphism for reproductive purposes.
I don't know about you, but I don't see many people having enough of a problem with gender norms to want to change them.

>>8520329
lmao cuz 4chan has the same social value as a real productive life.
we can see each other later today and you wouldn't even know that its me

>>8520337
But why is it a big thing? I mean, if the science says we're just men with a brain condition that requires out bodies to have a female form, why do we want to be called or treated as women?

>is there gender at all
Nope, it's been a ruse this whole time, we were all doing it for kicks!

>>8520352
>namefag
>you wouldn't even know that its me

that doesn't make you any less annoying and narcissistic

>>8520393
This. Namefags should just leave already and get their attention fix somewhere else.

>>8520337
>Im still a pretty masculine tom botyish trans woman
Yeah, exactly. You are still trans, but you don't need to conform. Thats the whole point.

>>8520349
>Where and when has it been established that the entire LGBT community desperately wants to get rid of gender?
Literally everywhere and all the time. I've been to pride, most of my friends are part of the LGBT community, I have been to places in my town that LGBT people get together. Almost none of them conform. Most boys wear nailpolish and make up, most girls are butch/tomboy, there are many people that you would have to take a second or third glance at to figure out if they are a male or a female. Of course not ALL of the LGBT community wants to get rid of gender, but most of them are not comforming. I say this from personal experience.
>accusing this infinitessimal fraction of the human population
I am accusing lterally everyone who is saying that girls or boys should look or act a certain way in order to be girls or boys. I just took it to this board to discuss with trans people their opinion, as to why do they need to comform and other questions. I want to get a deeper understanding of this. I don't want them to change how 99% of the population thinks, I just want to throw light at this. I want to see how THEY think.
>Getting rid of discrimination I can understand, but what exactly does getting rid of gender entail?
What are the benefits?
Why should people support it?
The benefits of getting rid of gender are many starting with the fact that people would be able to dress, act and talk certain ways without being labeled because of it. We are all walking meat bags and trying to put importance on the pieces of clothing we wrap ourselves with is borderline retarded. Everyone should be able to wear dresses, everyone should be able to wear pants. Fashion to begin with is art, not gender. Anyone who has taken the tiniest peek at the fashion industry knows that. Everyone should be treated equaly

>>8520403
>>8520349
-there shouldn't be ''treated like a girl'' or ''treated like a boy'' because that usually means that one of them gets treated better than the other.
Allowing everyone to wear whatever they want and act whatever they want without labelling it with ''woman'' or ''men'' would help people feel generally more comfortable with their likes, it will make men feel more comfortable being emotional and it will empower women. It will become clearer who is really transgender and who actually just wants to play dress up and wear make up. It will hape teenagers distinguish wanting to change their actual body and having body dysphoria from just wanting to wear something that they are not allowed to wear because of gender. That will improve the image of transgender people and it will no longer be a ''rebel'' thing to do nor a ''phase'' because you will actually be able to tell who is transgender for real.

>>8520393
he thinks i walk around with my trip pasted on my forehead

>>8520417
>>8520403
Good points.
But is it really abolishing gender when you mostly want to end discrimination towards non conforming people?
Assuming your goals are achieved the binary would still exist. Lots of people would still be distinctly female or male with the exception that there's now the freedom to deviate from that without fear of repercussion.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, but it sounds more like you want to stop people from getting shit for being different, rather than the concept of having different genders.

>>8520455
Yes! Yes! Thank you! I have no problem with people who just like to be traditional, I have no problem with women who want to cook and have long lush hair and men who like to do...whatever men do, idk, play football or whatever. But I just don't understand how that would justify your gender. I believe gender is determined by body. And I mean by the body you are born with OR the body that you desire and feel that it is right to have. Everything else is just...so changable. So superficial.

>>8520429
>implying you don't

>"oh look, i just derailed another thread and made it all about me!"

>>8520476
Some believe non conformity leads to a separate state developing with views and morals that challenge a way of life set up for how ever long from the original society. People cant leave each other alone

>>8520499
What state are you talking about? Why leave each other alone?

>>8520510
Can you, for a year, survive without the internet and rely solely on irl contact and keeping up appearances? What was transgenderism like before the internet?

>>8520499
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look?

File: Screenshot_20170630-211953.png (305KB, 1080x1920px) Image search: [Google]

305KB, 1080x1920px

>>8520534
Define gender

>>8520521
A very good question. Same goes for media. Again, proving how superficial and changable gender is.

>>8520541
How do you explain thousand year empires. Liberalism is what killed western empires. China got it down for a while then communism killed a lot of people. Rather a few billion be sacrificed to build a wall than letting them die for no reason. If there ever was

>>8520499
the new state will be freer than the old one. gender anarchy.

File: images (24).jpg (5KB, 294x171px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 294x171px

>>8520640

>>8520640
Thats bad?

File: tumblr_l2bik6ETBV1qb6149o1_500.png (678KB, 412x700px) Image search: [Google]

678KB, 412x700px

>>8520499
>>8520575

>>8518982
>>8518989
>>8518993
A transsexual, due to a birth defect relating to natal development, feels that they ought have another sort of body. They are taught that people who have those bodies are called men/women. Ergo, they say they feel like they're actually women/men. They're also taught that being a man/woman means you must think in a certain way and behave in a certain way. Like the majority of people they come to believe this. As they already believe they're actually men/women they also start feeling bad about not conforming to what is expected of the group they feel that they belong to.

In other words bodily dysphoria is innate while social dysphoria is conditioned. In a post-gender world transsexuals (and I say transsexuals rather than transgenders because I think that the condition is exactly about sex rather than gender) would still feel the need to modify their bodies and take hormones.

There are sexually dimorphic brain regions, though we don't understand the implications of that. Using this to justify sexist notions is not something we should do but for the sake of honesty it is important to accept that the differences exist, and provide a possible explanation for why one feels like a man or a woman. In transsexuals said regions, before any treatment, look like a cross between those of men and women. For whatever reason this seems to result in gender dysphoria. Given this I think that it makes more sense to think of transsexuality as a sort of an intersexual birth defect rather than a mental illness.

All in all I understand your discomfort when it comes to the idea that being a certain gender means dressing or acting in a certain way, but this idea is pushed by most transsexuals for the same reason it is pushed by most people period: society taught them this. The condition, at its core, is not social and not about gender, but about sex.

>>8519200
>>8519777
>>8519377
Gender Dysphoria and Body Dysmorphia are different conditions, as evidenced by one major difference: patients with Body Dysmorphia do not react positively to being allowed to change their bodies. They continue to suffer because their problem isn't their body. patients with Gender Dysphoria react positively to being allowed to change their bodies. Aligning mind and body alleviates and in the best cases cures anatomic gender dysphoria.

>>8520788
It is about sex. I wrote that somewhere here...gender and sex are two different things. Transsexualism has to do with sex and has nothing to do with gender, because gender is something people have created.
Thank you for this answer.
Do you think that the world is coming closer to losing gender binary? It's definitely closer than before, but is it something possible in the near future?

>>8520816
>Do you think that the world is coming closer to losing gender binary? It's definitely closer than before, but is it something possible in the near future?

It is a political struggle, that's why being queer is inherently political

>>8520824
Why do you think it is such a problem for some people?

>>8520842
internalised oppression

>>8520816
And thank you for listening.

I think we're closer than we were in the past but given the resurgence of nationalism worldwide and the tendency of nationalism to go hand in hand with religious traditionalism I think we might soon start moving in the wrong direction. A grim prospect, but a likely one.

>>8520915
You are probably right. I've noticed that aswell and I believe its mostly because of fear. Because of xenophobia and just the latest happenings, but thats not the place to discuss that.
On a more positive note Will Smith's son is continuing to explore fashion, especially woman's fashion and thats quite influential!

OP, are you still here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLj4kp9CIzY

>>8520982
Yeah I've been writing all along.

>>8520998
If you have a throwaway email I'll share my personal feelings about gender and identity. I've thought about it quite a lot.

>>8521099
You can share them with all of us here, its a discussion.

>>8521191
My views aren't popular so I'd rather not.

>>8521241
Whatever floats your boat.
I feel like everyone's gone somewhere aswell.

>>8520968
People are afraid because they no longer recognise the world they live in. Their old identities and beliefs are suddenly not that secure anymore. Everything is moving at lighting speed, so there's no time to pick up the pieces. Telling people they are unique individuals free to be whoever they want to be does not solve their isolation. we all want to be free, but structures, community, and some degree of stability are necessary unless you want to go insane. People will embrace anything that gives them meaning, even absurd fascist ideologies or religious fundamentalism. That's why I don't think its a question of just breaking all the rules. Nobody so far has been able to tell me what 'abolishing gender' means or how are we supposed to achieve it, or what are we going to replace it with. Its just an abstract thought experiment that does nothing to help the people actually existing in this world at this very moment.

>>8521330
Abolishing gender would mean to, first of all, educate people on the fact that sex and gender are different things. Gender is what society had created and sex is the organs that you have or want to have. Abolishing gender would mean that there would be no woman's or men's clothes, make up for everyone, body hair or lack of body hair for whoever wants to have it or not have it. It's not that difficult really. Sex would still be a thing, there would still be boys and girls. There would still be transsexual people changing their genitals because of body dysphoria, but there wouldn't be this constant pressure on ''do I pass''. Because if you have the required genitals you do pas. Regardless of your face, clothes or attitude. There would still be pronouns - based on your sex. Because this will be the only thing they would be used to justify. Leaving all social constructs behind and embracing one's own likes of character, thats what abolishing gender means.

I think OP has to go now. I hope to find this discussion ongoing when I come back, but I doubt that it would be. Thank you to anyone who participated.

>>8521385
people do not exist in a vacuum, identity is created through a constant interaction between environment and the individual. Gender identity is a complex and little understood phenomenon, we can't just say its bad and dismiss it as a social construct. Trans people are demonstrably different at a neurological level. what do you have against trans people using the pronouns corresponding to the gender identity they feel more comfortable with? If you want to end suffering and oppression, your political energies are better spent elsewhere, fighting the real sources of power in the world rather than harassing people about deeply personal stuff.

>>8518982
If "gender does not exist", how can you identify as a "cis female"?

>>8521385
>pronouns based solely on genitals
Not feasible and not how humanity functions. If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, it's getting called a duck

>>8519377

Yeah I guess. What does that have to do with trans people?

>>8519491

See >>8519235
Social dysphoria is an aspect of it.

And when one successfully transitions, being treated as the opposite gender is just going to come naturally to strangers. At that point, calling someone by their birth sex is just rude and revealing of private personal information.

I don't really get the end game here. Trans people shouldn't be treated as the opposite gender, but also no one should be treated differently based on gender? So what's the problem?

>>8519601
>Transgender people are born into them and have the opportunity to try and break them.
Literally how? And why is it their responsibility?
If a trans woman happens to enjoy wearing dresses and makeup, that's her own fucking business. She doesn't have to keep looking like a dude for the sake of some imaginary tomboy, who is perfectly capable of breaking gender norms on her own and to her own desires.

No one reinforces gender roles by simply existing and behaving as their true selves. An extremely feminine woman who dreams of being a home maker is not reinforcing gender roles. She's only doing that if she starts dismissing any other woman who's not an extremely feminine home maker, or men who aren't masculine.

>As this person said, thats the point of being queer
There's no 'point' of being queer, it's just who you are. Fuck off with your crazy ideologue bullshit, people are just trying to live their lives.

>>8518982
don't you think this has been asked hundreds of times already
this is literally the first thing cis people ask when they talk about transgender people

>>8519610
>A transgender woman ''proving'' that she is a woman by wearing certain clothes, by painting her face with make up, by letting her hair grow long
The fuck?
Trans women go on hormones and potentially pursue surgeries to resemble a natal female. If they wear a dress that's their personal choice, whether it's to treat their dysphoria and look female or simply because they happen to enjoy it, it has nothing to do with anyone else.

>>8522554
Funny how nobody's yet written an FAQ that gives people like OP satisfactory answers.

>>8519643

Have you ever met an individual human being, or is your entire perspective based on broad brush characterisations the whole of humanity as two basic stereotypes?

>>8522566
yeah we should probably do that
desu /lgbt/ needs a sticky/FAQ

>>8519691
>Transgenderism is body disphoria before all else.
Which creates the situation of wanting to be seen, treated, and to look like a man/woman. All of which are parts of medical, legal and social transition.

Instead of looking down on the world like a dictator deciding what you do and don't think people should want and what's best for people, maybe it's up to individuals how they want to live their own damn life.

>>8522587
Considering nobody in this thread has been able to, what do you think a sticky could say to people like OP?

>>8522591
>Which creates the situation of wanting to be seen, treated, and to look like a man/woman.
How though?

There's obviously a huge difference between your brain saying you should have breasts, as you're saying is what transgenderism actually is, and things like wanting to be called she or playing with pink toys.

How does the former lead to the latter?

>>8522607
we are hundreds of years away from understanding the complexities of the human brain. sometimes weird stuff happens that can't be fully explained.

>>8519781
>>8519777

No it's not, they're fucking polar opposites.
Body Dysmorphia is a deluded perception of what your body is - a thin person thinking they're fat, a buff person thinking they're scrawny, etc.
Gender Dysphoria is an awareness of what one's body is, and a resulting depression from that fact - distress from the accurate perception of being male/female.

Just because the words start with the same fucking letter doesn't make them at all related.

They both use the greek prefix 'dys' meaning 'bad' (dysfunction, dyslexic, etc).

The 'phoria' in dysphoria is derived from a greek word meaning 'to bear/carry,' the whole term meaning 'to carry bad feelings,' with the antonym 'euphoria' meaning the opposite. It's a word for general sadness and unease, like melancholy or unease. Gender Dysphoria is a specific disorder referring to the distress and depression some feel specific to their sex/gender.

The 'morphia' in dysmorphia is derived from a greek word meaning form, the whole term meaning 'bad form,' with Body Dysmorphic Disorder being a specific disorder referring to one's distressing misperception of their own body.

You might as well say paedophilia and paediatrician are basically the same thing.

>>8519772
>I am asking everyone to not continue it.
So you're just asking people with a distressing medical condition not to treat it, people with personal interests not to engage in things that make them happy, people with a need to blend in for personal safety and comfort to walk around feeling like a freak with a target on their back, and people who face backlash from the majority due to unfounded assumptions that they want to fuck shit up for everyone rather than just live their life to fuck shit up for everyone and not live their life.
Cool cool.

>>8522658
Or it's just psychological, the whole social aspect.

>>8519844
>The moment you put ''binary'' in it, the moment you start dressing a certain way not because you like it but because you believe it carries gender with it you are a sexist piece of cake.

>people aren't allowed to choose how they dress

how about you fuck off and mind your own fucking business instead of acting like how someone chooses to dress is any of your fucking business?

>>8520164
>Does it happen all of a sudden? I tought you were born with it?

The point is you never get used to it, it always hits you as if it just happened, even though it's always been like that.

>>8522607

It's been explained.

>>8522724
Oh?

>>8520403
>Literally everywhere and all the time.
Well looks like you're fucking wrong, because almost everyone ITT disagrees with you. Do we just not fucking exist because it's inconvenient to your skewed worldview?

>I've been to pride, most of my friends are part of the LGBT community, I have been to places in my town that LGBT people get together.
So you have an incredibly narrow, incestuous view of LGBT people, there we go.

>>8520403
>The benefits of getting rid of gender are many starting with the fact that people would be able to dress, act and talk certain ways without being labeled because of it.
You mean like a trans woman being able to act feminine without some ideologue cunt trying to shame her for it?

>>8522727

Yes.

>>8522738
Are you capable of quoting or linking it?

>>8522753

I am.

>>8522594
sorry I left the thread
I'm sure someone has answered this already
it's a pretty simple question and it's been asked a bunch of times in the past
I've read some good replies in past threads on /lgbt/

>>8522692
You are absolutely retarded. This is literally the complete opposite of all the things I said in this thread. Check yourself.

>>8522731
>So you have an incredibly narrow, incestuous view of LGBT people, there we go.

Do you really fucking think that people that have been oprressed their whole life based solely on the fact what whole they want to fuck are people to want gender binary? Do you think that they are people who would want ANY type of further division? Do you really think that if a boy goes to pride with make up the majority of this oppressed community would tell him to fuck off and go back to being a ''real boy''?

>>8522735

I'm not shaming anybody for choosing to be feminine or masculine. I'm saying that it is wrong to state that you HAVE to be feminine or masculine to be a girl or a boy.

>>8523355
But those things I just listed are what "not continuing it" entails, you busybody moron.

>>8523365
>Do you really fucking think that people that have been oprressed their whole life based solely on the fact what whole they want to fuck are people to want gender binary?
Do you really think LGBT people are a fucking hivemind? "Hurr the people I know who enjoy each others company and come from the same town all think similarly" no fucking shit.

>>8523368
>I'm saying that it is wrong to state that you HAVE to be feminine or masculine to be a girl or a boy.
Good thing that literally nobody said that, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with trans people.

>>8523406

>Good thing that literally nobody said that, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with trans people.
It actually has a lot to do with trans people. Many trans people comform to the social construct of gender just so they can be more ''authentic'' or whatever you want to call it. Just 1 day ago I read an article about a trans girl that was saying that she wants to be tomboy but she can't because at the end of the day ''I want to pass as a girl, not a man with boobs''.
The whole ''do I pass'' situation implies you should look a certain way to be connected with certain genitals and thats borderline retarded.

File: ripleyuwu.jpg (536KB, 850x1142px) Image search: [Google]

536KB, 850x1142px

Ok OP, let me put it this way. I will give you an example.

I am a trans woman. I am also a huge dyke and feel more comfortable with the butch/tomboy look. It's what I find cool and badass and whenever I see a woman that sports that look I instantly find her more cool than I would otherwise.

However, the fact that I am trans, and somewhat early in my transition nonetheless means i need to make compromises with my appearance, moreso than a cis woman does. I cannot shave my head in the same way Sigourney Weaver in Alien did. If a cis woman shaves her head, she won't face people calling her a man and assuming she has a penis. A cis woman will never face violence as great as a trans woman who doesn't pass i.e doesn't look like a cis woman. Trans women very often simply cannot afford to break gender roles due to the violence they face; and very often they have to conform to these almost to the point of caricature just in order to actually be recognized as a woman by society. You can not understand why this is horrible because you are cis; you expect trans women to fight gender when they are the ones most tightly confined by it, forced to conform to it by society, facing much greater repercussions for breaking gender roles than a cis woman ever will.

I could simply be a person. If someone wanted to know what my genitals were the only way to know would be to ask me or to somehow see them. That would be an amazing thing. But since we live in a world where gender exists and is oppressive, it is cis people who need to spearhead this along with trans people.

>>8523583

OP here. First of all, I respect you for being brave and doing what feels comfortable despite society.

>If a cis woman shaves her head, she won't face people calling her a man and assuming she has a penis.

That is my whole point. I do not believe that a shaved head should be an indicator that the person with the shaved head lacks or has certain genitals. If we manage to drop gender binary, you would be able to be your fabulous tomboy/butch self and do whatever you want with your attitude, style and whatever else without people ridiculing you. I also understand now (after this thread) a lot clearer why trans people need to comform so that thay can ''pass'' as the gender that aligns with the sex they have. Still, gender binary is a huge step back.

>I could simply be a person.
These were my statements all along, from the beginning of this thread. Still are.

>it is cis people who need to spearhead this along with trans people.
Yes! Along with! So many people here told me that I am accusing, hating and whatever else when I'm literally not. I treat everyone equally and if a trans woman says how a person should act in order to be a proper woman she is as wrong as a cis woman saying how person should act in order to be a proper woman.
Anyway, I think the world is moving towards dropping gender binary. Many more androgynous styles, fashion statements, make up looks.

File: tumblr_nyf9tkh26f1saxn8fo1_1280.jpg (594KB, 1280x1707px)

594KB, 1280x1707px

>>8523609
>I do not believe that a shaved head should be an indicator that the person with the shaved head lacks or has certain genitals.

I agree! The point is trans people face additional violence for going beyond gender, and this is why accusing them of conforming to it more is silly. That was my whole point. It is a huge step back, but oddly, acknowledging that trans women are 1000000% women and trans men are 100000% men and acknowledging the existence of non-binary genders is what will serve to destroy the concept of "man" and "woman", i.e the concept of gender eventually.

>So many people here told me that I am accusing, hating and whatever else when I'm literally not.

it does feel like you are accusing us of conforming to gender roles too much in your OP, and in addition you are doing this from a position of (cis) privilege, in addition to a general lack of understanding of what dysphoria is exactly and not really seeking to inform yourself better. That's obviously not going to sit well with people.

> I treat everyone equally and if a trans woman says how a person should act in order to be a proper woman she is as wrong as a cis woman saying how person should act in order to be a proper woman.

agreed, i find it creepy from both cis and trans people. Although this is not applicable to trans women giving advise on """passing""" (a concept that is reprehensible and obviously patriarchical but often a necessity for our personal safety and also for some people's dysphoria).

>>8523454

That still has nothing to do with trans people. Plenty of cis people conform for similar reasons, and plenty of trans people just do whatever they like regardless.
Your issue is with insecure people.

>>8523609
>I do not believe that a shaved head should be an indicator that the person with the shaved head lacks or has certain genitals.
And it's not, you fucking idiot. A trans woman with a shaved head exposes more male features than a trans woman who disguises her male features with a haircut that's either distractingly feminine or cut in a way to make her face appear more female.

If a trans woman has her dick hanging out all day, she'd also pass much worse, but that has nothing to do with how fucking masculine it is to have your dick hanging out.

Gender can be whatever you want it to be.

Sex is what sexual reproduction organ system you have, and the hormones that come with that.
Gender is what you feel you are. If you think you're male, great for you, your gender is male, and your original sex will always be what it was.

Let people modify their own body and live their life, if you want to enhance the world by all means, but arguing and stressing yourself out with people who are not interested is a waste of your own life.

GENDER IS A PERSONAL MEANING

>>8523798
Nobody on here is prohibiting anyone of modifying their body and live their life.
Gender is a social construct, not something you ''feel''. Gender is a complex of fashion, make up, style and attitude. It literally can be changed in a day. You don't feel gender, you just like how gender looks like.
Sex, on the other hand, is something you are born with and the hormones that come with that, for this you are right. However there is something called body dysphoria that causes people born with certain sex, feel the need to change that certain sex. This is what being transsexual means and nobody is telling nobody to not modify their body according to their will and in order to stop body dysphoria.
Gender has nothing to do with that.

>>8523849
I agree with you.
Would you say being a man is indulging and practicing the culture of it?

>>8523930
>>8523848
replying to myself to add further detail, are you saying people change their sex to indulge in a different culture of gender because it better complies with their brain?

>>8523950
fuck's sake, I give up

>>8523930
Being a man as in having a penis/feeling the need to have one, or obeying the social construct of a ''man''?

I agree with OP in everything except that transgender people have the responsibility of abolishing gender or at least starting it, that would just make them more hated and oppressed, but cis people should start it and then trans people can hop on the train later, because in the end we cis people are who made gender where trans only want to play alnog with them, plus i guss it will be more acceptable by other cis people if it started from cis people

>>8524639
>transpeople MUST fight for MY cause for ME or you're FAKE!!!

I want the idpol to hang themselves collectively.

>>8524650
You just like being offended don't you?

File: 1493934806190.jpg (16KB, 200x303px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 200x303px

>>8524979
Nope, but you sure have a habit of it.

>mfw these "people" try to fight for "me" and then claim I have to fight for "them" because they supposedly fought for "me"

None of y'all have done fuck shit to benefit my life or make the suffering go away. Take your collectivism and your freak identities and your need to crusade online in a world that is otherwise so boring you barely have any enemies to fight on this side of it and shove them all up your ass.

>>8525012
Forget everything
If you have a button the would make the world genderless.
Would you press it?

>>8525133
There's too many questions about what the genderless world would be like to answer.

>>8525133
Y E S. YES. YES!

>>8525157
like the one we discussed in this thread, would you press it ?

>>8525198

Different anon, but as far as I'm concerned it's already been pressed. The fact that most women are feminine and most men are masculine is just a reflection of the biological roots of these assocaitions. Anyone who significantly differs from these states is free to do so. And almost everyone does for at least one trait - women who like sports, men who are pacifists, etc.
No one's going to put you in jail for being a bulldyke.

>>8525198
More questions that the posts here answer.

>>8526387
What does biology have to do with the stereotype that girls should have long hair and wear certain colors and men should have short hair and not wear dresses for example?
It has been pressed, we are in process.

>>8525157
the one where men can give birth and make roasties obsolete lmao

File: 0043034f.jpg (55KB, 299x480px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 299x480px

>>8528594
Long hair made it easier for the caveman to drag her home.
Dresses made it easier for the caveman to access her sex organs.
High heels make it easier for the modern man to catch her when she tries to run away. Also they tilt her pelvis making her but stick out in an "I'm offering sex" way.
Necklaces draw attention to the breasts and also provide something to hold onto, like a handle, to choke her with and control her.
Red lipstick makes her lips look like inflamed sex organs.

>>8525157
>There's too many questions about what the genderless world would be like to answer.

There are plenty of organisms that can divide asexually.
The answer is less diversity and decreased fitness.
Not to mention zero sexual attraction and no orgasms.

>>8528616
you mean all those things women employ to take advantage of their appeal to climb up the socioeconomic ladder - because thats exactly how it works now

>>8528630
So we devolve into worms? sounds great, lets do it.

>>8528630
Make a difference between sex and gender.

>>8528616
Since we are living in a world where we are past looking at a red lip and thinkin yep she did it so that her lips can look like inflamed sexual organs, we can now safely say that the way one looks is based mostly on personal preferences rather than drive for reproduction. Now we can give red lips, dresses and everything we ''own'' to men aswell. And they can give women what originally belongs to them style-attitude-fashion-wise.

>>8528748
>we are living in a world where we are past looking at a red lip and thinkin yep she did it so that her lips can look like inflamed sexual organs
[citation needed]