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Do you believe we'll ever figure out what causes LGBT people to deviate from the cishet norm?
Do you think it's a birth thing, environmental thing, or maybe both in conjunction?
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who cares
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>>8496333
>birth thing, environmental thing
Why do morons think these are opposites
Xenoestrogens from environment affect mother's physiology, womb = "birth thing"
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I think its social/how youre raised up
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>>8496335
Cishets who want to ensure their future generations are cishet.
Also faghags who want gay sons.
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>>8496333
I think people will always doubt it.
Environmental.
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>>8496333
Nope, fags just want to sin cuz they love Satan.
Jk
I honestly think it's a mix. Your born with genes or alleles that might have an effect on who your attracted to and this might be exacerbated by the environment. Bisexuals for example might be born with such but might not have undergone the environment to go full gay.
Or maybe were all kind of bi.
I honestly have no clue.
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>>8496342
This. Environment still plays a huge factor on genes. Both during their development and functions later in life.
People seem to forget that genes are kind of a carry on from our ancestors environment.
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>>8496333
>you will never have a sexy female body
>you will never send him pics of yourself where you have just the right amount of skin showing to produce maximum titillation
>he will never send back pics of his rock-hard dick or cum
Why even live?
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>>8496333
>what causes LGBT people
It is evolutionary compensation for super-fecund females.
Everybody knows that.
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>>8496333
We will, if we stop bashing cureanon and actually support him. That's what he fucking wants all along, and you idiots love to bash him.
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>>8499352
There is nothing to be cured we just need acceptance.
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>>8496333
Can we separate LGB from T when talking about this?
In fact, can we separate LGB from T forever everywhere?
I'm tired of people assuming my transexuality has anything to do with who I want to fuck.
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>>8496987
That doesn't really answer the question.
Saying 'evolution did it' does not actually explain whether it is genetic, psychological or both.
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>>8496333
Birth.
>>8496342
>>8496420
They list them apart so I'm assuming they mean genetics+natal environment by birth and post-natal environment by environment.
>>8499423
But G and T are basically varying degrees of the same condition. Gays have feminized brains. Female-identifying trannies have significantly more feminized brains. Vice versa for lesbos and FTMs.
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>>8499482
>Birth.
There's no proof of that I've ever seen. As far as I know, it could just as easily be subconsciously psychologically determined, or some combination of these factors.
>But G and T are basically varying degrees of the same condition. Gays have feminized brains. Female-identifying trannies have significantly more feminized brains. Vice versa for lesbos and FTMs.
>"feminized brains"
Pure fucking pseudoscience.
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>>8499507
>There's no proof of that I've ever seen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Genetics
>Pure fucking pseudoscience.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080616-gay-brain.html
>Gay peoples' brains share similar characteristics to those of the opposite sex, a new study says.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
>The results of this study show that the white matter microstructure in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of FCs (Female Controls) and MCs (Male Controls). Our data harmonize with the hypothesis that fiber tract development is influenced by the hormonal environment during late prenatal and early postnatal brain development that is proposed to determine gender identity.
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>>8499419
Not everyone desires acceptance, some actually desire a cure. Respect other viewpoints, or we have no reason to respect yours.
>>8499539
>citing wikipedia
What a joke, I'm not even gonna comment on that one. Bitterhons going to bitter depth.
>>8499547
Correlation does not = causation, and all you bitterhons even know it. Of course you're shitposting, it's all you can do because you can't accept the facts.
Transition doesn't work. Detransition, and accept it. Or stay on HRT, and fight for a cure with me. Or if you're not trapping yourself, don't fucking start.
Laugh all you want, you know it to be true.
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>>8499571
The different links are about different things Anon. There are a lot of different ones I could post. The second one is about how homosexuals indeed have brains that are in some ways shifted toward being like those of the opposite sex. The third is about how pre-HRT trannies have brains that are between those of men and women, to a much greater degree than the brains of homosexuals are.
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>>8499571
Their citations are pure fucking bullshit, and I'm the only one that is willing to point it out.
They bash me all day and night, because they're bitter hons and can't accept the truth.
There is absolutely zero proof transgender = intersex, there is only utter driven studies that don't prove shit.
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>>8499539
>wikipedia
Speaking as a member who has done lots of editing there over the years, I know for a fact that wikipedia is highly politicized. Also there is no conclusive proof there, only "data suggesting a link" and such. What about all the trannies in their study that DIDN'T have that variant genotype?
>natgeo
Again, highly politicized. Again, no conclusive proof. What about the gay or bi people without these neurological characteristics?
>The results of this study show that the white matter microstructure in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of FCs (Female Controls) and MCs (Male Controls). Our data harmonize with the hypothesis that fiber tract development is influenced by the hormonal environment during late prenatal and early postnatal brain development that is proposed to determine gender identity.
I hate to be so repetitive, but again... what about the cis men with higher counts of MDs, cis females with lower counts of MDs, and trans outliers as well?
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>>8499595
What the fuck are you talking about? Those studies are legit, I'm not even arguing that part here. Go be paranoid somewhere else, retard.
>>8499594
I know they are about different things. In fact, that is my whole point here. You claimed gays and transexuales are varying degrees of the same condition because these two studies show some feminization in the brain in both, but this is completely baseless if both studies aren't done under the same conditions and scan types.
For all we know, this could only prove that gays have female amygdalas and transexuals have female white matter microstructure, that doesn't point out anything about them being related.
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>>8499606
>Speaking as a member who has done lots of editing there over the years, I know for a fact that wikipedia is highly politicized. Also there is no conclusive proof there, only "data suggesting a link" and such. What about all the trannies in their study that DIDN'T have that variant genotype?
There are a lot of studies cited on that page showing a lot of different vectors in which the brains of transsexuals show gender-intermediate patterns. You can follow them. That's the idea behind citing everything with actual studies. The gene thing is indeed a non-deterministic correlation, but many of the other structures appear to always be present.
You could reasonably dismiss one or three such differences as being coincidence, but not the entire bulk of evidence.
>Again, highly politicized. Again, no conclusive proof. What about the gay or bi people without these neurological characteristics?
Again, you can find the actual studies referred to in the article and judge for yourself.
To the best of our knowledge they don't exist. The androgen receptor thing is a correlation. These differences appear to be deterministic.
>I hate to be so repetitive, but again... what about the cis men with higher counts of MDs, cis females with lower counts of MDs, and trans outliers as well?
These areas are sexually dimorphic. Men and women generally don't overlap in them. It would be a cosmic coincidence if, by pure chance, every tranny studied just happened to fall into the gender-intermediate regions, in many different areas at the same time.
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>>8499632
>I know they are about different things. In fact, that is my whole point here. You claimed gays and transexuales are varying degrees of the same condition because these two studies show some feminization in the brain in both, but this is completely baseless if both studies aren't done under the same conditions and scan types.
>For all we know, this could only prove that gays have female amygdalas and transexuals have female white matter microstructure, that doesn't point out anything about them being related.
You're right and I've admitted to that part essentially being shitposting. We don't know whether the cause for the gender shifted structures is similar but as far as wild speculations go I don't think that's an unreasonable one. tl;dr you're right.
btw there are some tranny-related amygdalas differences but they're not the same as those found in gay men
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>>8499677
I'll tell you the truth Anon.
Even if you're right and I really do have a "feminized brain", I would prefer not to know. That's why I barely read before rejecting these theories.
It's like with "depression". I was told I had a problem with seratonin levels or some shit and that was why I felt so sad. Even if it's the truth, I prefer to reject this mindset, to be responsible for my sadness. By the same token I want to be responsible for my own faggotry. I refuse to ever believe there is a chemical formula in my brain determing these things.
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>>8499713
>leaving the S at the end
tbqh I'm a retard please end my suffering
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>>8499715
I used to have the same mindset. It's good to try and be as masculine as you possible can be, I think you can be extremly masculine as a gay man. Not masculine in a fake queer way but masculine in the way the successful straight men are. (Why try to be like straight men? Because they tend to be the more successful ones. Learn from them)
I think there is also a biological limit to how manly you can be, but like most biological limits it's difficult to cap out. Think of it this way, we all have limit on how much muscle mass we can get but most of us never get near to reaching that limit.
The thing though is that if we are at least partially effeminate by biology you need to weaponize that shit. If your prone to be being emotional than embrace that part of you, but don't use it to be a faggy bitch. Be fucking emotional in a manly like how Nietzche is.
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>>8499715
Materialism is whack yo
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>>8499715
>That's why I barely read before rejecting these theories.
then why do you contribute in these discussions??
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>>8499799
I'm fighting every day.
Fighting for a cure for AGP/Trans/Dysphoria.
Our chemicals in our brain don't rule us!
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>>8499802
It makes me feel better.
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>>8499799
This image makes me incredibly mad every time THE MOUSE MAKES NO SENSE
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>>8499805
kekekekekekekekek
KEK KEK KEK KEK
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>>8499811
The mouse makes perfect sense. Read again, meditate carefully on the words.
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>>8499818
Nice shitpost.
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>>8499826
What is there to fight? The truth is the truth, impersonal, uncaring. How I feel does not change it. There is no option but to "trust the chemicals" since all that happens in this world depends on the physical process, even the mouse's silly attempt at a riposte.
The universe is absurd and there is no innate value. That doesn't mean mankind can't create artificial value for itself. Being artificial does not make it lesser than the natural.
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>>8499851
>What is there to fight?
The fear of the unknown and unknowable.
>There is no option but to "trust the chemicals"
Yes, there is. All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. You can choose not to trust the "truth" of the material world and to search for "higher truth" (if you will pardon the ridiculous turn of phrase)
>all that happens in this world depends on the physical process
You sound very confident of that. May I ask why?
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>>8499890
>The fear of the unknown and unknowable.
It is not my enemy. It is my friend. It keeps me searching, so that I forever find more ways to uncover more of the darkness.
>Yes, there is. All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. You can choose not to trust the "truth" of the material world and to search for "higher truth" (if you will pardon the ridiculous turn of phrase)
Okay, but you are still assuming that logic exists, or that it is possible to find a "higher truth". Any tool you use is similarly tainted. There is no way to transcend physicality or the basic assumptions of existence, such as logic.
>You sound very confident of that. May I ask why?
There is no reason to think otherwise. Either we trust our senses and what we discover through reason or we accept that we can't know a single thing because our very tools can't be trusted and descend into madness.
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>>8500267
>It is not my enemy. It is my friend. It keeps me searching, so that I forever find more ways to uncover more of the darkness.
Fear of the unknown may keep you searching, but there can be no certainty in what you find, so the fear always has hold on you. Conquering this fear means accepting we know absolutely nothing.
>you are still assuming that logic exists
All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. Logically analyzing the informtion is meaningless when there are no definite facts to be had. The "higher truth" I speak of lies within the part of yourself which cannot be reduced to physicality, it is a personal truth, it has nothing to do with the material world and the untrustworthy tools of observing the world.
>Either we trust our senses and what we discover through reason
How can we?
Haven't you seen The Matrix?
>or accept that we can't know a single thing because our very tools can't be trusted
Yes, that is the choice I advocate.
>and descend into madness.
Not necessarily.
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>>8500306
>Fear of the unknown may keep you searching, but there can be no certainty in what you find, so the fear always has hold on you. Conquering this fear means accepting we know absolutely nothing.
Our lives are made better by the mastery we gain of this world, not by surrendering to it.
>All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. Logically analyzing the informtion is meaningless when there are no definite facts to be had. The "higher truth" I speak of lies within the part of yourself which cannot be reduced to physicality, it is a personal truth, it has nothing to do with the material world and the untrustworthy tools of observing the world.
Yet you rely on these vulgar truths right this instant! You *believe* that if you press a button it will send a signal to your computer which will send a signal through the internet to my computer which will be displayed on my screen as a letter which I will be able to decipher. Your every action betrays a deep belief in the earthly logic, in the grand assumption that you can say "If A then B", but that is simply something you accept. Of course, you MUST accept it because one can't exist without it. We know it to be axiomatically just as we know time to exist in a similar fashion. From there, then the path to accepting materialism is not long.
>How can we?
>Haven't you seen The Matrix?
Because there is no other option. You either accept that it is possible to employ logic or you give up on reasoning at all, and that means giving up on doing anything at all, for all doing relies on the idea that if you do A then you can predict B will happen.
>Yes, that is the choice I advocate.
Yet you do not live it!
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>>8500331
All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. Therefore mastery of the world does not exist, we are ultimately always in the dark about everything. Accepting this is not surrendering any part of yourself, it is just being at peace with what you cannot change.
>Yet you rely on these vulgar truths right this instant! You *believe* that if you press a button it will send a signal to your computer which will send a signal through the internet to my computer which will be displayed on my screen as a letter which I will be able to decipher. Your every action betrays a deep belief in the earthly logic, in the grand assumption that you can say "If A then B", but that is simply something you accept. Of course, you MUST accept it because one can't exist without it. We know it to be axiomatically just as we know time to exist in a similar fashion. From there, then the path to accepting materialism is not long.
>You either accept that it is possible to employ logic or you give up on reasoning at all, and that means giving up on doing anything at all, for all doing relies on the idea that if you do A then you can predict B will happen
It is possible to play along with the information being fed to your senses without believing it is necessarily accurate.
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>>8500343
>All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. Therefore mastery of the world does not exist, we are ultimately always in the dark about everything. Accepting this is not surrendering any part of yourself, it is just being at peace with what you cannot change.
You rely on mastery in every action! Right now you are reading and writing and typing! Arranging letters in complex patterns you've learned! Reasoning! Employing logic! With each argument you field against me, each coherent word, you kneel to Matter, prostrating yourself in a show of faith!
>It is possible to play along with the information being fed to your senses without believing it is necessarily accurate.
Yet you act as if it is, every waking moment!
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>>8500352
>You rely on mastery in every action! Right now you are reading and writing and typing! Arranging letters in complex patterns you've learned! Reasoning! Employing logic! With each argument you field against me, each coherent word, you kneel to Matter, prostrating yourself in a show of faith!
I could just slap my hands on my keyboard and post a random string of characters at you instead, if you prefer~
Seriously though, like I just said, it is just a matter of playing along with what is put in front of me. If someday it can be proven that the material world really exists, jolly good. Until then I'll keep my skeptical position.
>you act as if it is, every waking moment!
To me, spirituality (practices such as breathing meditation or more exhaustive trances) is all about the ongoing attempt to find that "higher truth" within, separating your consciousness from the limits of your physical form and the material world, limits which may not even exist except within your consciousness
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>>8500367
>I could just slap my hands on my keyboard and post a random string of characters at you instead, if you prefer~
That would be consistent with your world view.
>Seriously though, like I just said, it is just a matter of playing along with what is put in front of me. If someday it can be proven that the material world really exists, jolly good. Until then I'll keep my skeptical position.
Well, by accepting it you are, in fact, accepting it.
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itt
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>>8500383
>"You're not allowed to believe X if you do Y, because I say so"
k
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>>8500386
You seem pretty autistic yourself. Maybe you should join the discussion.
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>>8500411
I know what I believe. I am not interested in what you believe I believe.
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>>8500391
only if you call me a cute girl and pat me on the head, I feel so lonely and unloved
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>>8500422
Are you in fact a cute girl
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>>8500443
you are very kind, thank you!
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it's atrazine in the water and xenoestrogens in the food supply, they disrupt your endocrine system. Sometimes its due to exposure to a parasite that causes changes in the brain which causes behaviour that will ensure the continued passing of the parasite. it's a form of population control. In naturally occuring cases its sometimes due to trauma from an unwanted sexual experience. The genes undergo epigenetic changes which remove the person from the gene pool.
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>>8503843
Bullshit.
[citation needed]
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>>8496333
relevant copy paste from Reddit (it's long):
The most frustrating thing as a trans person is that Bill Nye had a golden opportunity to explain some of the real (and complex) science behind trans people's existence and he flubbed it so hard.
I personally think the sex/gender terminological discourse is stupid because some people mean 'gender roles' when they say 'gender' and some people mean 'sex'. Creating an artificial category of 'gender' separate from gender roles and biological sex is stupid IMO and does trans people more harm than good discourse wise.
I strongly believe (and the evidence is compelling but not conclusive) that trans people are basically another type of intersex people that biologically developed the brain of the wrong sex. This post (credit to /u/CailanJade) below explains a lot of the science, sources at bottom:
What causes people to be transgender? A science lesson. Got ten minutes? This is long.
Twelve years ago I sat in Dr. Dennis Van Gerven's class at the University of Colorado. It was a course that covered "physical anthropology" which used to mean bones, but now means all human bodily physical remnants, and especially the evolution of humans and DNA. Basically, what makes humans human. Besides the amazing teaching style of Dr. Van Gerven (the best teacher I've had in my life) the class was highly informative and useful in not just my anthropology major, but probably half of the things I learned in that class I have applied to my life in some way, shape, or form.
We spent an entire week on the cause and effects of transgender. It was eye opening. I later learned the same is being taught in college bio classes, medical schools, nursing schools; it's pretty settled science. As always with science, the details are being worked out still, the nuances and whys and wherefores, but this isn't at all controversial within the science and medical fields.
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>>8503947
So, ready for the science lesson? (Bill Nye really flubbed this one the other night and could use some lessons from Dr. Van Gerven).
During the fifth week of pregnancy a fetus' body organizes physical sex characteristics, and during the eleventh week of pregnancy the brain organizes into male or female type.
So, what causes the body and brain to organize one way or another? Hormones.
During each of these weeks in an XY fetus there is supposed to be a testosterone wash, where a gene on the tip of the Y chromosome flushes the whole body with testosterone. The strength of this wash determines the degree to which the body or brain is masculinized.
In the 5th week, this testosterone wash creates a basic male-pattern framework for the body and turns the gonads into testicles. Therefore you get a range of degrees of masculine traits in men. In some cases the strength of the wash is genetic and you get whole families where everyone is a Greek god, or another family where they're all more effeminate physical types.
In rare cases an XY (male) fetus will get zero testosterone and be entirely, completely female in physical form, but sterile. Or the fetus is resistant to testosterone (lack of androgen receptors) and the wash fails. The medical drama House featured this in one episode.
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>>8503961
In an XX (female) fetus, testosterone levels should be low to non-existent, the gonads become ovaries, but the mother produces some natural testosterone, and if hers is a little bit high, it can give the XX fetus physically masculine traits such as wide shoulders, narrow hips or heavy musculature outside of the normal appearance of the other members of the family (variation outside of normal genetics of the parents). Occasionally an XX fetus will produce testosterone for unknown reasons. It is known that if the mother has hormonal issues with testosterone it can affect the fetus in this way, but it's rare to track a pregnant woman's hormones. Women secrete low levels of testosterone in their ovaries and adrenal gland, but usually not enough to have a serious effect.
So far this is just and overview of how hormones affect the physical sexual dimorphism (physical difference between male and female, aside from sexual organs) and variation within each sex, in most animal species, including humans. This is also how we get more and less masculine men, more and less masculine women. It all depends on how much testosterone there was, both during that crucial time period in the fifth week of pregnancy, then later again during puberty.
So what does this have to do with transgender?
The testosterone wash is repeated in the 11th week of pregnancy when the brain is organizing into either a female pattern or a male pattern. Yes, men and women have distinctly different brains. Again, testosterone causes masculine patterns while the default, without testosterone, the brain forms into a female pattern. There are a number of places you can go online to find the physical differences between male and female brains, but it has to do with what parts of the brain are larger or more dominant, and the number and type of connections between different parts of the brain, and the density of brain tissue.
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>>8503969
Assume the first testosterone wash/lack of wash went fine and the body matches the chromosomes, perhaps perfectly male or female according to the DNA programming, perhaps just a little bit altered from the intended form but still clearly what DNA intended. The second time around, it may not work as well.
Again, sometimes this testosterone wash in an XY fetus is either very weak or sporadic. So, you get a fully, mostly or partially feminized brain in a male body. Or some parts of the brain may be feminized, others masculinized, especially in a sporadic wash. So you get different degrees of transness - those who are have fully or almost fully feminized brains are the more extreme male to female types, while those with weak or sporadic testosterone washes may be non-binary of varying types, depending on which parts of the brain was forming as those strong, weak, or non-existent testosterone moments happened.
In an XX female fetuses, the same works in reverse. There should be low to no testosterone in the fetus' system during development. If for some reason sometimes there is testosterone present, the XX fetus brain becomes masculinized to varying degrees.
Therefore you end up with a female brain in a male body, a male brain in a female body, or a mixed brain in either body. The social expectations, desires and "parts" don't match up with what the brain expects, and you get "dysphoria," the panicked feeling the brain gets when body parts aren't adding up the way the brain thinks they should, and is getting hormones it isn't expecting (or missing hormones it wants).
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>>8503975
The current estimate is that one in 187 individuals is trans of some kind, either male to female, female to male, or "non-binary," which is the umbrella term for the mixed brain gender types such as bi-gender and genderfluid, and those who are agender (totally missing a connection to gender) or androgyne (blended gender).
So, that's the bare basics of it, as science currently understands the causes of transgender. There may be some cutting edge stuff I'm not aware of, but this is what current science understands, mostly unchanged from my class 12 years ago.
Edit: some sources
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222286/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19955753
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/
http://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-1-4614-1997-6_115
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3928415/
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>>8503975
Why can't I have gotten a masculinized brain and a female body?
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>>8503843
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/06/20/drank-contraceptives-today-didnt-even-know/
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>>8504010
Read it again bro. Why in the hell would you WANT that anyways? Work on your grammar.
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>>8504010
Being an FtM is an even worse curse
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>>8504026
I did read it and because that's my favorite combination and my grammar's fine.
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>>8504051
I don't want to be an FtM, I just want to have a masculinized brain.
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