People are free to transition, and to also assert a right to

headless horsemen, as you call them. it sure is funny watching everyone melt down because tranz.

>>8369222
huh?

Also, it is practically a contradiction in terms to hold the two views simultaneously:

* Innate differences between men and women are, at best, minor, and the exhibited differences are largely due to cultural influences and socialization
* People have an "innate gender identity"

>>8369240
>contradiction
bitch, scan my brain or shut the fuck up with your word games.

>implying my self image problems aren't caused by my masculine features
>implying most poor people don't want a fresh start

>>8369242
Seems like I hit a sore point?

>>8369247
Disliking my racial features does not make me transracial.

>>8369208
>AGPs confirmed trutrans

>>8369254
Nice mental gymnastics.

>>8369259
Oh, I get it. You're doing the thing where my theoretical arguments are making you uncomfortable, so you need to lash out in response by insulting my mental faculties.

>>8369208
I wouldn't because it would be quite mean of me.
I'm quite poor, have health issues and grew up in an abusive enviroment.
Dad was bipolar and used to beat everyone in the house, break things then after his attack was over he would cry, say was sorry and get a loan to buy back the things which made us dive into heavy debt and so on.

Seriously, I would go to hell if I traded with some person just for the sake of becoming cis.

javascript:quote('8369267');

>>8369264
I'm doing the thing where I point out it's a tad silly and based in fantasy to be dismissing dysphoria as a sign of a person being trans. It very much is a sign.

>>8369272
Being "trans" is a mental illness that necessitates the proper treatment. Treatment may very well constitute transitioning (either partially or fully).

That STILL DOES NOT MEAN that the person in question "was always a woman", or that they "confirmed their gender identity".

It means they transitioned and now have the right to assert the privilege of being socially referred to as a woman.

It DOES NOT magically retroactively change who they were in the past.

>>8369208
>*after a good-faith effort at transitioning has been made*.
And what exactly does this comprise?

>>8369286
I know it when I see it.

Examples of people who have NOT made good-faith efforts at transitioning:

* Danielle Muscato

Examples of people who HAVE made good-faith efforts at transitioning, have earned the privilege of being socially referred to as women, but nevertheless (1) are still not "actually women" and (2) were never "actually women":

* Caitlyn Jenner

why the hell do i have to prove to you a single fucking thing?

oh thanks you reminded me to write a letter to that attorney general about opiates. gatekeeper needs to legalize narcan.

>>8369294
Why do we have to justify anything we say?

Why do truth and reality matter?

===

"Ever since I was a child, I've always dreamed of being an astronaut. Unfortunately, due to a number of reasons including but not limited to my poor eyesight and distaste for formal schooling, my life took a different path. I still like to indulge the fantasy as much as I can—attending space camp, dressing up in the realistic space suit that I bought, reading and writing erotic fiction about ordinary people being kidnapped and forced to become astronauts—but sadly, given the enormous costs of actually pursuing astronaut training, it doesn't look like I'll get the chance to fulfill my dream—barring unforeseen advances in spaceflight technology that drastically lower the costs of becoming an astronaut, of course—and I am gracefully resigned to this reality."

"Well, I think you literally are an astronaut and always have been!"

"Um. Thank you? But I've never been to space."

"Oh, well, you're not a cis astronaut. But trans astronauts are astronauts! Anyone who asks questions about the detailed truth conditions of this statement will be socially punished!"

i think every single citizen in america who doesn't complain about regulation by FDA/DEA is guilty of murder.
legalize narcan, quit gate keeping. quit telling others what they may or may not put in their own body.
OP wants to regulate others usage of synthetic hormones. OP is a faggot, gatekeeper, and guilty of all trans suicides.

inb4 OP jokes about just not wanting the single payer clause of ACA

>>8369297
are you still in medical school, and shitting bricks about doing your first surgery?

>>8369302
>OP wants to regulate others usage of synthetic hormones.

You are a LIAR.

Point out or quote the SPECIFIC THING I SAID that demonstrates I want to restrict, IN ANY WAY, access to hormones.

You can't. So you're a LIAR.

>>8369307
if i am a liar, allah will punish me as allah sees fit. and i will accept that for allah is most just and wise.

btw your OP has the words lie. nice psy op, but i'm out of your league.

>>8369290
If a ciswoman presented like Muscato you wouldn't call her a man.

>>8369240
>this tired old "gotcha"

Have a rest anon, I'm sure a long hard day of knocking over strawmen has left you pretty tired.

>>8369208
But if they are AGP, which is what I guess you mean by "sexual fetish", then how can they be said NOT to have always been women or to be discovering their true gender?

>>8369335
You'd like to think that it's a strawmen, but I've heard many people advance both lines of reasoning.

>>8369254
It does tho

>>8369313
>if i am a liar, allah will punish me as allah sees fit.
Is this why Israel always beats the Muslims?

4729-5-39 Dispensing of naloxone.
(A) A pharmacist or pharmacy intern under the direct supervision of a pharmacist may dispense naloxone without a prescription to either of the following in accordance with an approved protocol specified in paragraph (B) of this rule:

(1) An individual who there is reason to believe is experiencing or at risk of experiencing an opioid-related overdose;

why did this thread get derailed by someone's autistic naxolene fixation

>le no true scotsman: the post

>>8369374
Because nobody replied to >>8369355

>>8369384
The real reason is because Jews are genetically superior.

>>8369374
because allah willed it

>>8369387
Then why do Israeli Druze and Bedouin also beat foreign Muslims?

>>8369419
Muslims are genetically inferior, whereas the Druze and Bedouin are just average.

>>8369240
It's not really a contradiction. Gendered behaviors can be socialized without gender identity as a concept being fake.

>>8369422
Then why are Bedouin Muslim?

>>8369208
>* sexual fetish
We don't know whether AGP is target-location-error or if it's a coping mechanism, but we do know that AGPs who transition are usually happier for it.
>* desire for a "fresh start"
I wish I could start my life over as a girl. I'm not "starting over my life" by transitioning, though. I'm continuing it in a way that I don't hate.
>* "grass is greener" syndrome
Find me one transgender person who doesn't wish they were the opposite sex. You won't find any.
>* self-image problems
Implying that those self-image problems can't be caused by being a woman that looks like a man or vice versa.

lol By this metric, transgender people don't exist.

>>8369442
Early transitioners do exist.

But claiming that all late transitioners are actually women is a lie.

>>8369208
AGPs are real women. You're right about the other ones tho

>>8369240
GID is all physical though, isn't it?

>>8369264
transracialism doesn't exist. its as simple as that. so theres no apt comparison to be made.

>>8369279
this.

>>8369452
Being an early transitioner or a late transitioner is irrelevant. I'm AGP, have self image problems, want to be a woman, and nearly started transitioning when I was 13.

My point is that if you take all of OP's disqualifiers into account, everyone would be cis.

>>8369442
>lol By this metric, transgender people don't exist.
Yes they do. Only HSTSes are covered by OP's criteria.

>>8369503
So HSTS's don't ever have self image problems, or think their lives would be better if they were born female?

OP's criteria doesn't cover anyone.

>>8369502
>and nearly started transitioning when I was 13.
how?!

>>8369510
I think you misinterpreted my post.

>>8369303
You scared her off :(

>>8369525
My dad was an extremely prideful man, and he even went as far as to name me after him. One of the biggest reasons I used to tell myself that I shouldn't transition was that I knew it would hurt him.

When I was 13, though, he died of a heart attack. I loved him alot, and miss him, but at the same time his death gave me a lot more liberty in my mind to explore the idea of transitioning. Combine this with the fact that this was around puberty, when dysphoria was particularly starting to boom, along with a corresponding boom in my already-severe depression, and I basically didn't feel like I had much to lose anymore.

Although, due to AGP gaslighting during questioning, an unsupportive family, and financial troubles from my dad's death, I just went back to repressing until I was 17 (which sounds relatively early, but I've been trying for about a year and a half to secure hormones in a way that wouldn't require me to throw away any chances of going to college, and due to marfan syndrome, I'm basically doomed to be a goliath of a twinkhon at this point).

>>8369656
How dysphoric were you at 13?

>>8369697
I've always been a little dysphoric, but puberty was the point where I went from "It would be awesome if I was a girl, but being a boy is tolerable I guess" to "FUCK THIS SHIT I NEED TITTIES NOW!!!!".

>>8369729
Were you feminine acting or did you act like a boy since that was tolerable?

What was the AGP gaslighting you did to yourself?

>>8369553
Or you misinterpreted mine. I just looked at the metrics OP presented for what makes one trutrans, and pointed out why they're stupid, even for judging HSTS's by.

the teeth girl

>>8369510
Read my post carefully.

The *source* of the desire to transition in an HSTS is not a self-image problem, or a sexual fetish, or a desire for a "fresh start".

That DOES NOT IMPLY that those characteristics cannot in some form manifest themselves in HSTS. Obviously HSTS will have self-image problems.

The difference is that in HSTS, the ROOT of the desire to transition is dysphoria, NOT the self-image problem, which is SECONDARY to the dysphoria.

>>8369595
>>8369303
??? I'm an academic, not a doctor.

>>8369656
Maybe if people weren't collectively delusional about "really being a women", people would be able to view transitioning as just a form of self-modification, obviating the need for gatekeeping?

>>8369786
>in HSTS, the ROOT of the desire to transition is dysphoria, NOT the self-image problem, which is SECONDARY to the dysphoria.
No, the self-image is primary and the dysphoria stems from it.

>>8369786
>just a form of self-modification
It really should be. Considering you can get tattoos and piercings to the point of obliterating your body HRT seems pretty tame compared to what some people do to their bodies. Like guys get giant metal spikes rammed through their dicks.

>>8369786
>>8369796
But if it's self-modification then it's a icky fetish and bye bye healthcare funding!

>>8369807
Insurance isn't going to pay for me to take SSRIs if I'm not clinically depressed. What's the problem?

>>8369821
>What's the problem?
Losing entitlements.

>>8369807
Not necessarily. Oftentimes cosmetic surgeries are covered by insurance if there's a genuine reason to believe the surgery would lead to a significant quality of life enhancement.
Many women get breast augmentation covered by surgeries.
I've had a few plastic surgeries covered by insurance as well since they were birth defects but they had no real health detriments or anything.
I've even heard of people getting tattoos covered by insurance if it's for covering up scars that cause depression and such.

>>8369836
covered by insurance*

>>8369754
>Were you feminine acting or did you act like a boy since that was tolerable?
Kinda andro, I guess. I wasn't too into sports or roughhousing or anything, and I was a bit more emotional and dramatic than most boys, and a lot of my interests were feminine-leaning (singing, acting (although due to dysphoria, I mostly preferred voice acting), and having a lot more skill in English than math, for instance), but for the most part, I never really came off as being anything other than a nerdy boy.
>What was the AGP gaslighting you did to yourself?
I was generally afraid that the fetishistic aspects of my condition invalidated me. That all the distress I felt reguarding the changes happening to me, and all the envy towards the girls around me getting the changes I wanted, was just a delusion brought on by a sick perversion. And that all of the money that my mom was spending on a therapist for me to figure this out was just being thrown down the toilet because of this delusion.

I wish I never came across that Blanchardian bullshit.

>Obviously HSTS will have self-image problems.
That's my point though. If dysphoria causes self-image problems, than it's retarded to say that self-image problems are a reason to believe that someone isn't trans.

>>8369856
I meant to direct that last part to >>8369786

>>8369856
>t's retarded to say that self-image problems are a reason to believe that someone isn't trans

What I ACTUALLY said was:

> However, if ... self-image problems ... are the root of the desire to transition

Exercise: how does what you THINK I said differ from what I ACTUALLY said?

>>8369856
>I was generally afraid that the fetishistic aspects of my condition invalidated me.
Why did you believe that?

How did the therapy go?

>I wish I never came across that Blanchardian bullshit.
But Blanchard approves AGPs transitioning?

>>8369869
Do you think that "chicken or the egg" argument is actually useful to someone who is questioning, or do you think it would just cause unnecessary confusion?

>>8369877
>Why did you believe that?
>But Blanchard approves AGPs transitioning?
I was a stupid kid, and I got most of my information on the subject from 3rd party sources. Mostly stuff from people who saw AGPs as illegitimate.
>How did the therapy go?
The guy I went to was more equipped for dealing with people on the LGB side than the T side, so it wasn't very fruitful.

>>8369927
I actually don't care about whether or not the truth is potentially confusing.

I'm not interested in designing a world around the cognitively inferior.

>>8369927
>3rd party sources. Mostly stuff from people who saw AGPs as illegitimate.
Who were they?

How old are you now?

>>8369302
I know that you are probably long gone but it's not like there are restrictions on drugs for no reason.

Sure hormones and other medications that don't necessarily cure a disease caused by bacteria or viruses shouldn't be regulated.

However, things like antibiotics are restricted in their uses because overuse can result in infections that evolve to be immune to these antibiotics. Countries like India or Malaysia that don't regulate any drugs period are actually creating super viruses that have no cure currently because they have evolved to resist our medications. Because of how interconnected the world is today, another incurable plauge would devastate the human race.

>>8369935
>I actually don't care about whether or not the truth is potentially confusing.
So you think it's a good idea to take the path of most resistance in pursuit of the truth?

>>8369942
>Who were they?
I don't remember at this point. I'm pretty sure some of it was from trans women who perpetuate the idea of "trutrans", as well as conservatives and maybe terfs. I didn't discriminate based on ideology as much as I should have.
>How old are you now?
18

>>8369982
Bailey published his book covering AGP in 2003, when you would have been 4. If anti-Blanchard trans women hadn't launched a hate campaign against it, AGP could have been well understood and accepted by the trans community by the time you reached puberty and your repression could have never happened. You could have understood from the start that being AGP is being trans.

>>8369982
I think that preservation of "pursuit of the truth" as a value is important.

>>8369208
>desire for a "fresh start"
>"grass is greener" syndrome
>self-image problems

These are still all good reasons.

>>8370134
I agree, although you're not going to get an answer from a direct "chicken or egg" argument. The only way to know if you want to transition because of self image problems or gender dysphoria, is to know if you have gender dysphoria. This alone, however, is not going to tell you whether or not you have gender dysphoria (except for maybe through the logic of "If you want to transition, that's probably a good sign that you have gender dysphoria"). It'll only tell you that you have self image problems and want to transition.

>>8370012
I highly doubt it. It was the 2000's. Anything suggesting abnormal sexuality was still somewhat taboo, and a lot of trans women are eager to throw other trans women off a bus because "I'm not a freak! They're the freaks! My problems are valid! Please accept me! I just want to be a normal girl ;-;"

>>8370199
>and a lot of trans women are eager to throw other trans women off a bus because "I'm not a freak! They're the freaks! My problems are valid! Please accept me! I just want to be a normal girl ;-;"
That's exactly what happened and still happens and why Blanchard's work is denied and people still end up in your situation of believing they aren't trans because they are AGP.

>>8370199
i'm the same age as you, but i'm an expert in the transbian sex wars
that's exactly what happened, but mostly due to the work of three people -- if andrea james had never called bailey's daughter a cock-starved exhibitionist, we could have avoided all this
>>8369208
>/ratanon/ and /tttt/ are literally the same board
really makes you think

>>8369935
important note: the baseline g to understand this stuff is a lot higher than you think it is
i'd say about 5% of the population can pull it off, but i've met people with top-5% iqs who are baffled by the whole thing, so perhaps even that's optimistic
you have to account for the fact that stuff that sounds obvious to you is unbelievably complex to the people you're trying to explain it to

>>8370441
>but i've met people with top-5% iqs who are baffled by the whole thing,
Almost as though IQ is a bad tool or whether or not someone is dysrational is what matters.

so basically what it comes down to is no one is legitimately trans. except for that cara person and the singer from AGAINST ME I mean.

>>8370436
>>/ratanon/
???

>>8370436
This SHOCKING REVELATION will BLOW YOUR MIND:

I'm also Numbers!

>>8370441
Right, I keep forgetting that I'm privileged with unusually low mutational load [1].

[1] Because g doesn't actually exist, in the sense of being a causal factor of intelligence, and is almost purely a proxy for a general fitness factor reflecting the degree of presence of deleterious, non-modal mutations.

>>8371122
>general fitness factor
man, i'm eternally amazed by the fact that rationalism is the community that embraced mutational load as the primary/only explanation for the genetics of intelligence when rationalists are terrible at literally everything but their respective 2-3 99.9th percentile subtests, although come to think of it that's what happens when you build a community smart enough that some of them even know how statistics work
>>8370706
4+4chan (does the filter still kill you?) board for the rationalist community, which is a transhumanist cult/autistic friendship simulator

>>8371147
Please look at my recent thread on the g factor.