Misgendeirng by society

>>8363262
When it's cara poster

1) Anything which requires functioning genitals? So sex/romance basically.
2) Also not all trans people "transition". Some are non-op, some don't take as well to hormones or surgeries. In cases where secondary sexual characteristics matter, like in sports, the military, entrance to single gender spaces, it should be taken on a case-by-case basis. An early transitioning mtf should be able to play womens sports, a non-op mtf (to give the other extreme) should not.

>>8363275
>the military
Shouldn't that be based on strength and endurance regardless of sex?

>entrance to single gender spaces
Why is this based on secondary sexual characteristics? If anything primary characteristics like whether you sit or stand to piss are what's relevant.

>An early transitioning mtf should be able to play womens sports, a non-op mtf (to give the other extreme) should not.
An mtf with who transitioned late enough would be stuck playing against cis men?

>>8363275
You're probably baiting but let's start with the first part.

1 - MtF literally become sterile and most of the time can't perform sexually anymore due to issues with erections and so on.
They don't work at all unless you mean FtM, those technically stay the same if you ignore the larger clitoris.

>>8363275
Also military should never allow trannies in there to begin with.
Hormones, psychological issues and so on are a detriment to the force. cis females are already a huge headache in the war.

As for sports. Most of the time a FtM would beat a MtF due to a thing called testosterone.
Even cis females that are caught in anti doping tests were using testosterone for the advantage in sports.

>>8363290
>If anything primary characteristics like whether you sit or stand to piss are what's relevant.

You realize that even cis men can sit down to pee, right?

>>8363262
You must have skipped school on "there's only 2 genders' day. 'Misgendering' is a made up word for adult babies to pacify their mental illness.

>>8363290
>Shouldn't that be based on strength and endurance regardless of sex?
>Why is this based on secondary sexual characteristics? If anything primary characteristics like whether you sit or stand to piss are what's relevant.
Secondary sexual characteristics relate to muscle density, bone density, height, breasts, feminine face, disposition, etc. It has to do with being outwardly identifiable as a woman or as a man, and that is important for single gender spaces. Many women wouldn't feel comfortable if there was someone who was physically and hormonally male there, even if she otherwise identified as a woman.

>An mtf with who transitioned late enough would be stuck playing against cis men?
Idk depends on the sport, better to compete among other mtfs or in co-ed spaces. Late transitioning Mtf still can have residual secondary sex characteristics of males, including larger bodies in general. Non-op mtf have all the same benefits cis men do.

medical shit

in particularly:
pap smear
prostate exam

>>8363333
I know this is bait, but transitioning to male/female does mean there are more then two genders.

>>8363334
>and that is important for single gender spaces. Many women wouldn't feel comfortable if there was someone who was physically and hormonally male there, even if she otherwise identified as a woman.
So institutionalized passing privilege.

>>8363321

What are you talking about?

>MtF literally become sterile and most of the time can't perform sexually anymore due to issues with erections and so on.
>They don't work at all unless you mean FtM, those technically stay the same if you ignore the larger clitoris.
Ok. So. Neither of them have functioning genitals of their chosen/identified gender. A mtf does not have a functioning female genitals, and a ftm does not have functioning male genitals. They should not be treated as their identified gender when it comes to sex or romance.

Now they may have also ruined their original genitals, in which case they can't be treated as their birth sex either, if that's what you are getting at, but fall into kind of their own category like with historical eunuchs or whatever. Either way, not interested in sex or relationships with a trans.

>As for sports. Most of the time a FtM would beat a MtF due to a thing called testosterone.
But the whole point is that not every trans person is on hormones. Thats why I said "case by case" basis.

>>8363341
>So institutionalized passing privilege.
Yes, if by "passing privilege" you mean "identifiable as a member of this gender".

If you lack all female primary AND secondary characteristics, you aren't a woman anywhere but your own head. And thats fine but for social purposes, its not meaningful.

>>8363352
>And thats fine but for social purposes, its not meaningful.
But why punish them with discrimination for their social failings?

>>8363370

Its not a punishment. Nobody is entitled to single gender spaces or communities. You can also have a trans only space and in that case cis women would not be invited.

Do you think, for example, a convent of nuns should be forced to accept someone who is 100% physically male?

>>8363338
Chromosomes, a material biological factor, comes in two forms: XX and XY. Male and Female. Why you chose your obsessive mental illness to insist there are more than two genders just means you're will fall for anything is something only you can figure out. FYI: Identifying as a Hippopotamus or an Attack Helicopter is also in the same 'gender' spectrum if you want to say there are more than 2 genders I guess that's how you can justify it.

>>8363375
>Nobody is entitled to single gender spaces or communities.
So remove them and nobody gets misgendered.

>>8363379
No, single gender communities are very important for girls and women in particular, but men benefit too.

get over yourself. You can make your own non-op mtf communities if that is what you want.

>>8363379
As a person who owns a biological penis it's awesome to be able to walk into any bathroom where your mom is and get my lady parts exercise next to her stall since that wouldn't make her uncomfortable at all and if it did how dare she take our her cis gendered orthodoxy out on the gender fluid!

>>8363378
>Chromosomes, a material biological factor, comes in two forms: XX and XY.

thats wrong and also irrelevant

>>8363378
I didn't claim there were more than 2 genders.

>>8363422
>>8363378
>>8363338
whoops, I meant doesn't meant there are more than 2 genders. good typo lmoa.

>>8363418
Science is irrelevant to you because you made the choice to fall in love with your feelings and ignore the facts. That's kinda sad you say you're from the 'party of science' until ACTUAL science is demonstrated and claim somehow biology is not longer a factor in the real world only because of your obsession to staying a blind liberal lemming. There are only 2 genders. You need mental health services since it appears you're sick in the head and are unable to separate science fact from 2017 liberal fiction.

>>8363429
no i mean i'm on the side of science, it's just not true that chromosomes only come in these two forms and it also doesn't really matter because hormones alter gene expression.

>>8363436
So what you're saying is there's no such thing as 'transgendered' people. Yup. The science is pretty settled. Transgenderism, like homosexuality, is a mental illness. Future generations are going to figure out that what you're spouting off is liberal nonsense and that there's only 2 genders using all the forms of biological science you have been told to reject since it isn't based on your daily changing feelings.

>>8363444
same

>>8363444
>The science is pretty settled. Transgenderism, like homosexuality, is a mental illness

Actually scientists would disagree with you.

Also lol @ "transgenderism", that isn't a word bruh

>>8363459
>Also lol @ "transgenderism", that isn't a word bruh
Buzzfeed says so and they are the makers of liberal standards so read their style book fuckwad.
Science says liberals are fucking morons who need to be put into camps and re-educated back to reality or throw themselves off the roof out of solidity to muslims homosexuals who are offered that as their only lifestyle choice.

>>8363475
I don't think any scientists have ever made that claim anon. I think you're lying to me.

>>8363262
When they clearly don't like women or men, though it's usually the mtf that are known for horribly passing.
Like that game spot gta v reviewer that was also on with Anita sarkeesian.

>>8363262
if you know but they're not out of the closet yet and you're around their family or something
then it's obvious you should gender them as their assigned sex to avoid outing them

>>8363483
You're a liberal. Your entire life is a lie. What's one more lie to you anyway when it comes from Buzzfeed? They're like printers of the liberal bible on a daily basis! You're a fucktard and it shows. Proof your mom made the incorrect choice. You are the reason why your mom is un-empowered and miserable. She just wanted the sex without consequence and was stuck with you. You should be ashamed of yourself for being the sole reason why your mom never made anything of her life, just forced you into the world. To bad she didn't make the correct choice for abortion.
How does it feel to be the reason why your moms life is shit?

>>8363385
>single gender communities are very important for girls and women in particular, but men benefit too
"Nobody is entitled to single gender spaces or communities."

>>8363513

To any individual space. People absolutely have the right to make their own spaces. Do you think the government should force all convents to admit men?

>>8363509
Now, now anon, don't re-use material that's poor form, go back to the other thread and really take my advice. Tone things down anon.

>>8363523
Private spaces can discriminate however they want. But anywhere paid for by the public mustn't.

>>8363526
it's 4chan bitch. Tone your titties down if you want something toned down. They are lopsided and uneven. They have ostamy fashions to help with that on amazon.

>>8363334
>Non-op mtf have all the same benefits cis men do.
Uh what? Non-op doesn't mean no hormones, and usually means removing testicles anyway so no testosterone there either..

>>8363262
Sports. Though truly they should be disbarred if hormones are taken. Unless they wanted to create a trans division. Otherwise it ruins any semblance of fairness in the sport

not to generalise but
as a fan of MMA
i wouldn't like to watch a was-man now-woman in the octagon thrashing an -always-has-been-woman

>>8363497
This and sports in some cases are the only times trans people should be treated as their birth gender.
>sex
Most ftms don't want to be treated as females during sex, the majority use a strapon and take the male role, or if they're gay use their asshole.
Mtfs don't often use their genitals either, they get fucked, so...
I don't see why you'd treat them based on their birth sex rather than treating them as a slightly different member of their transitioned sex.

>>8364075
If their hormones are in the normal ranges for the gender they're competing as, why should they not be able to compete on the basis of taking hormones?

>>8363262
They should be in any and all situations.

>>8364384
Because they don't have the skeletal structure of a cis female and no amount of hormones can change this. They're bulkier and stockier.

>>8364326
the only one who would trash anything is a ftm who is not allowed to fight against men, they would trash all the women

if i may give a civilized reply, yes in some way because sometimes you may need to do somthing where you have to be as your birth sex, like pee in most southern states, but mostly no, most of the time u can be wutever

>>8363509
Such boring drivel.

>>8364436
im gonna play women's soccer and nobody can stop me

>>8364475
>like pee in most southern states,
But they shouldn't have to.

>>8363378
There are more to those chromosomes than just two letters, anon.

>also what is intersex

>>8363262
By doctors checking things like prostates or pap smears.

>>8364384
Because hormone levels =/= gender. Transwomen are fucking hulks and that cannot be changed.

>>8363262
Yes. In political topics. Because their experiences are a type of male experience, politically.

Only early transitioning and fully passing MtFs can claim to have some of the same experiences as real women, politically speaking, and that's not enough to justify seeing them as literally female.

>>8372522
What do you mean politically?

>>8371264
>>8372522
this

also in general id like to see culture change back to one where respect is earned, not demanded and given on pity. transgender people who are out should be honest about their sex and not delusional. if a tranny seems like a woman to me, im gonna treat them like one. if they dont, i dont. im not gonna treat someone like a woman just because their disease wants affirmation (thats rly unhealthy in general anyway). even if the person was a good friend i dont think id do it.

>>8372584
Like the legal definition of "woman" should be based on birth sex, and political groups should acknowledge that MtFs are a type of man.

>>8372615
>good friend i dont think id do it
>good friend
So what you're saying is you're not a good friend?

>>8372618
The legal definition for what purposes? Quotas, shelters, scholarships, marriage, etc? Why?

/lgbt/ really has taken a nosedive in quality this week

>>8372648
???

>>8372625
to me a good friend is someone who is honest, who puts reality and health above temporary feelings.

do you really want your friends to think they pass when they dont? to have their obsessions fed?

>>8372688
Every time now when a trans friend asks if they pass, I ask them a questions like "do you feel you pass? can you give examples of the last time you did/didn't?"

You see, its very easy to hurt a trannys feel feels, but you can talk to them and get them to acknowledge reality without using a hammer of truth.

I mean granted, my closest/best friends are brutal with the truth, that's why they are my best friends.
Now a friend that asks a question and expects only one answer because of the social and emotional backlash is playing a different game to me, it's quite manipulative, I would never call them a good friend.

Very few transgirls I've met read "female" in my subconscious so I have to actively gender them female for a while before it sticks, like if I was to say "she would like a drink" that'll take up more brain resources to override than if I had said "he would like a drink".

This can show up in day to day conversations and should be the easiest way for a girl to know if she passes.

>>8364602
Even before I transitioned I knew I would never compete in sport ever again.

You'll either be extremely good at the women's sports, or shit at the mens.
I'd never wanna be one of those trannies that appear on the news about that.

>>8375313
Why not? Society has no right to shame you for not being a cis woman.

>>8372628
>Quotas
>scholarships,
These aren't the big deals everybody makes them out to be.

>>8363321
*May have non-permanent fertility issues
and can have sex provided they pop a progesterone

>>8363418
Intersex is irrelevant

>>8363459
He is right anon

>>8363378
>>8363429
>>8363444
Want the facts?
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html

>44. In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be “much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology” (Coolidge et al., 2000). The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000). It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by “consistent psychological socialisation as male or female from very early childhood” and it is not responsive to psychological or psychiatric treatments alone (Green, 1999). It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003). In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004). The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified. Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female. Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003).

The science, as you like to call it, is on the side of transsexuals being partially intersexed.

>>8372522
If someone is perceived as female they are treated as such and thus also mistreated in an identical manner. This is literally not up to debate; people aren't psychic and can't tell a stealth transwoman isn't a cis woman. As such, when it comes to issues that affect women but do not directly relate to biological functions such as childbirth, a passing transwoman is effectively part of the political class of women.

>>8363444
>Transgenderism, like homosexuality, is a mental illness.
Define "mental illness."

>>8381440
DSM

>>8385460
Not good enough. Neurodevelopmental disorders are one category in the DSM-5 and I wouldn't call them mental illnesses.

>>8386205
>Not good enough.
Too bad.

>and I wouldn't call them mental illnesses.
The experts would.

Sorry.

>>8381440
Anything I don't agree with

>>8363262
Yes. In scientific studies with anonymous participant data there should be a distinction between transgender individual and otherwise.
Another distinction should be medical necessity when doctors need to know your physiology and medication.

>>8388473
Mental retardation is called an "Intellectual Disability" in DSM-5. So are those people "just" mentally ill? Also you use "mentally ill" like a slur, as if it's some kind of character flaw that invalidates whatever the "mentally ill" individual is experiencing, or as if "mentally ill" is some kind of waste bin you can toss people you don't like into.

>>8385460
>>8388473
The DSM-5 refers to Gender Dysphoria as a disorder. Once someone transitions and no longer experiences dysphoria they're classified as healthy. Try again.

>>8389614
They're classified as healthy if they're not part of the high % of trannies that have comorbidities with other DSM disorders. :^^^^^^^^^^^^)

>>8388726
>>8389614
An intellectual disability isn't a mental illness like being trans is.

>>8390553
Being trans isn't classified as an illness though. Dysphoria is.

>>8385460
The DSM doesn't say that homosexuality is a mental illness though...

>>8390553
>mental illness
If you label something a "mental illness," what does that imply? You can go on and on about "mental illness" this and "mental illness" that, but what follows from that? Why is it so important to you to label being trans a "mental illness?" Please explain more.

>>8363262
Sports and anything means to help oppressed groups like women.

>>8394495
>implying trannies aren't more oppressed

>>8363378
>Chromosomes, a material biological factor, comes in two forms: XX and XY. Male and Female.
>there's only XX and XY combination of chromosomes
TOP QEQ
What century are you in right now, dear sir?

>>8363290
>An mtf with who transitioned late enough would be stuck playing against cis men?
Being on a sports team is a privilege, not a right.

Why would this be surprising? Professional sports are exclusionary by their very nature.

ALL

>>8401271
>muh klinefelters and trisomy and all the other 0.0001% of the population edge cases that only go on to reinforce the rule

The fact that mammals use XX/XY to determine sex shouldn't trigger anybody, but it certainly manages to trigger the >muh third gender crowd hard.

>>8401645
>Being on a sports team is a privilege, not a right.
Then scrap Title IX and all other subsidies for women's sports.

>>8401701
Congratulations, you're the reason TERF's hate us.

>>8401751
TERFs hate anyone who isn't also a TERF.

>>8401751
>Feminists hate anyone who doesn't agree there should be special privileges for females but for nobody else
It checks out and I'm proud of it.

>>8363333
There's only two genders but neither gender is exclusive to either sex.

>>8401751
Victim blaming.