Abusive relationships?

>>8360423
I find it so hard to fathom abuse in gay relationships. But maybe that's cause I'm not scared to fight back and I'll basically just aim straight for the balls lol

So, I'm looking for stories and insight. Who here has been in a heterosexual relationship that was abusive? Were you the abuser or abused? Were there children?

And now, are you in a different relationship which is still abusive? What's similar or different?

I'm not trying to stir up shit or make any point at all. I just want some stories and insight. I'm a single white male in my forties and it's hard for me to relate to the lessons I've learned in real life and in court.

This is a good book, but I'm wondering if it's too specific on heterosexual couples where the woman is abused. Anyone else out there read it and can comment?

>>8360437
That's a good start, anon. In many, if not most heterosexual couples the man takes the dominant role. Sometimes it's literally equal, and rarely the woman is dominant but it happens for sure. Men can and are abused in heterosexual relationships.

But in a male homosexual relationship, is there always a top and bottom? And if there are those roles clearly defined in the sexual relationship, does that transfer to the other aspects of the relationship?

Is it weird to ask whether the bottom in the bedroom can be the abuser outside the bedroom, or whether it's acknowledged to be extremely rare, or sort of rare, or never discussued? If it is weird, I'm sorry. I'm trying to learn here.

>>8360472
I've always been the bottom in my relationships but I'd still have no probs beating the shit out of my bf if he attempted anything lmao
I don't know if it's common for bottoms to be an abuser, I tease my bf and such but it's pretty similar to all the girls I know.

I'm not sure what would actually happen in an abusive relationship because I don't think I'd actually advance that far. If I see something is up with a guy I move on. Most gay people do online dating so there's no huge huge incentive to stick with any guy you're dating. If anything there's a larger incentive to leave the person you're dating. So I think abuse in gay relationships is less for the reason that gays just don't stick with people they dislike because there's nearly no incentive to do so.
Straight people are very anti-online dating, they're very anti-social clubs, etc. etc. so they feel trapped by relationships whereas gays are not.

>>8360423
What was the outcome of that trans custody case?

>>8360541
Thanks Anon, that's an interesting comment. So, gay men in your experience (or at least you?) are more likely to leave a relationship that's abusive before it gets serious? Is that the take away?

I've seen lots of heterosexual relationships where the man is abusive to the woman very soon, perhaps as soon as he thinks he can get away with it, in order to demonstrate dominance.

And in my experience at family court, I see more lesbian couples where there is abuse than gay male. Or maybe those just get reported more? Or maybe as you say a gay man is more likely to simply leave when it starts to go off the rails?

>>8360565
That wasn't a custody case, that's the child welfare authorities trying to get a judge to declare a child to be in need of protection because parents oppose puberty blockers and early stage hormonal treatment.

That case is still ongoing. It's heating up, in fact. You won't see anything in the papers because child protection cases are sealed to the public in my province.

>>8360577
What are the arguments each way at the moment?

>>8360572
I think gays are more likely to leave abusive relationships, yes. I believe statistically gay male relationships have nearly zero abusive relationships actually. Lesbians apparently have high abuse rates though, not sure what's up with that.
Usually for gay relationships I'd say abuse is 90% of the time financial related. Often times gays are kicked out of their house and are financially dependent on a sugar daddy type situation and that's where abuse occurs.

In terms of your standard relationships though I can't see abuse arising on its own. Gay people are fickle bitches and leave each other at the slightest quirk, abuse isn't going to survive the gauntlet of gay dating.

>>8360587
Well, I can't talk too much about it. But the provincial child welfare authorities are arguing that the child is suffering emotional harm as a result of the parents not going along with the child's wishes to transgender.

The parent's positions are that they are ok with the child dressing and living as the opposite sex if the child wishes, but that to take hormones and such in the early teens is not only contrary to the house's religious beliefs but could have long term medical harm too.

Essentially, a child of under 14 can direct their own medical care, but only if it's a serious illness or condition. A thirteen year old girl can get an abortion with her parents' knowledge or approval. And if a thirteen year old who has cancer wants to get chemotherapy over her parents' objection, the child will get it.

But without a diagnosis, or serious evidence as to the harm that could be done to the child by either denying the hormone therapy or granting it, the court isn't likely to make any decision either way.

>>8360621
>the court isn't likely to make any decision either way.
What would that mean, if they don't make a decision?

>>8360588
I can see that, but is this just personal observation and what intuitively makes sense? Do you have any larger picture of abuse in the gay community, either gay male or gay female?

As I wrote, I see "domestic violence" in it's typically defined, far more often in lesbian couples than gay male couples when they are monogamous and living together, sometimes married, and I don't know why that is.

>>8360626
It would mean that the child welfare authorities aren't likely to get what they are asking for, that the child be found to be in need of protection from the parents.

Part of the problem is that the authorities are hamstrung if they won't put the child into foster care. It makes little sense to say "these parents need to be court ordered to allow the child her own medical decisions" while still leaving the child in the parents' care.

But without evidence that the child is being harmed by the parents refusing to give treatment for a diagnosed condition, the authorities can't say that the parents are denying the child the necessities of life.

So it's becoming an issue of what to do when the parents can't or won't get the child diagnosed. There are essentially no publicly funded doctors in this province who can make such a diagnoses, whether or not they would given the political hot potato nature of this whole issue.

Leaving to one conclusion: if the parents aren't going to go out of their way and spend their own money to send the child to an accredited sex disorder specialist, the child welfare authorities can't force the parents to go along with the child's wishes unless the authorities take the child from the parents, put the child into foster care, and pay for the diagnosis out of their budge, which budget of course is paid by taxpayers.

It's a minefield. For many issues other than just what I've mentioned here.

>>8360634
I've known a few people that have been abused in relationships, but it's always financial. They can't get out very easily because their job doesn't pay enough for them to feasibly move on and their family would not associate with them anymore. I'm a gay guy but I'm not sure why lesbians have higher abuse rates. I think it's just differences in personalities I guess.
I guess it's just what I've observed because I don't think anyone has actually studied it to figure out why gay couples have low abuse rates versus heteros. Perhaps it's a little intimidating to abuse someone of nearly the same physical stature as yourself.

>>8360655
Thanks, Anon. I'm sure we've all considered that too. This is likely a factor, but the question is "how much"?

Do openly gay men still tend to have more career and income opportunities than openly gay women? How much does economic independence have to do with the issue, do you think?

>>8360653
But why is a diagnosis needed? The parents refusing their daughter her wishes should be enough. Custody shouldn't mean the right to do anything you want to the child short of denying medical treatment.

Doesn't Canada have socialized healthcare to diagnoze her anyway?

>>8360447
maybe look up codependency

>>8360423
>Abusive relationships
I'm not a lesbian so I never got beaten by the person I was supposed to enjoy my time with.

>>8360588
>Usually for gay relationships I'd say abuse is 90% of the time financial related. Often times gays are kicked out of their house and are financially dependent on a sugar daddy type situation and that's where abuse occurs.
The big difference is that in gay relationships that kind of thing is possible, while in a hetero relationship the man would be socially shamed and risk being accused of abuse, with actual legal danger unlike in a gay relationship. Later on marriage changes it even more so the man's power as the financially better off partner doesn't give him the upper hand.

>>8360673
Well in terms of evolutionary science people say females are more likely to develop stockholm syndrome. Females evolved this trait due to about 30,000-40,000 years of females being commonly kidnapped and used as slaves so it's been hypothesized that their brains evolved to develop stockholm syndrome as a coping mechanism. Whether or not that equates to why lesbians and het couples are more likely to be abusive is probably unknown, just my opinion.

>>8360675
Ugh, we're getting off my topic here, but I don't mind.

Unless there's a diagnosis, the child welfare authorities can't show that the parents aren't giving the child necessary and prescribed medical treatment for the condition.

Yes, there is socialized medicine in this country. But your average general practitioner / family doctor isn't going to diagnose gender dysphoria, in the same way that a chiropractor isn't going to attempt spine replacement surgery.

Such a diagnosis requires a specialist. There aren't many. The few that do exist operate out of private clinics, are paid privately, and not by the government. Dr. Ken Zucker in Ontario was a publicly funded specialist whose name I'm sure you've heard, but he was driven out of that practise by a small but vocal group who claimed he was engaging in conversion therapy, and by the Ontario government which has under it's latest premier taken a big swing to the left on the issue of lgbtq rights. This was an unanticipated casualty of such a move, in my view.

To answer you more fully, and not to say whether I agree with you or not, custody over a child is the authority to make the major decisions regarding the child's health, education, welfare, and religious instruction. So no, it's not about doing whatever the parents want; if the child is being abused or neglected, the state can override the parents' custodial authority by taking the child into foster care.

And the definition of "medical treatment" really goes to the heart of the matter. Without a diagnosis, the parents can't be accused of denying medical treatment. And without publicly funded specialists who can diagnose gender dysphoria, the authorities can't demonstrate that the parents are actually denying medical treatment.

>>8360673
>Do openly gay men still tend to have more career and income opportunities than openly gay women?
still? how so?

>>8360699
I'm no scientist, but I don't think that's how evolution works. It probably takes more than 30,000 years. Plus, how would having that trait, even if it is genetic, promote the woman procreating and passing those genes to the next generation, in a manner where it becomes a deciding factor in the genetic makeup of all people around the world? I just don't see it.

>>8360708
It's absurd if parents are allowed to get away with refusing treatment for a medical condition because the socialized healthcare doesn't employ anyone to diagnose it.

My point though was that this is abuse and neglect regardless of a diagnosis. What the parents want shouldn't let them abuse or neglect their daughter even when it's not a matter of medical treatment.

>>8360711
Or is that just a stereotype too?

>>8360699
>Females evolved this trait due to about 30,000-40,000 years of females being commonly kidnapped

females are neurologically wired to sacrifice themselves for the infants, nothing to do with males

>>8360720
40,000 years is plenty of time for evolution, we've even seen evidence of human evolution just in the past 100-200 years. We've grown slightly taller, puberty hits earlier, men's sperm count has gone down, and sexual differentiation is decreasing.
If women are more predisposed to stockholm syndrome which is a coping mechanism of abuse it would make sense that hetero couples and lesbians have higher abuse rates as they're less likely to seek help or leave their situations as they don't personally notice the abuse unless an outsider specifically mentions it to them.

>>8360729
well what's the evidence it's not?

>>8360728
You're putting the cart before the horse, assuming that the parents' actions are abusive/neglectful in the first instance. Maybe they are, but can't be considered so in every similar case by definition.

Let's say that my son comes home one day at 13, saying that he's now a neo-nazi and a worshipper of OdinWulf or whatever it's called when these idiots say that God favours the "nordic race" above all others. And my son wants to get a swastika tattooed all over his face.

I'm going to say "no, you're too young to make such a decision that isn't life threatening, you don't appreciate the long term consequences of your decisions, and this is why I have custody over you to make these decisions for you".

Some would say that I'm denying my son his own freedom of expression and his own religion or creed or whatever. I'd say that I'm stopping my son from being an idiot and ruining his own life. A lot of parents would see this situation as a straight analogy to the transgender child issue.

I'm not asking you to say that such parents are right or wrong, only to acknowledge that there is legitimate debate on the issue.

I represent plenty of children, and when I'm talking to teens who are in their school Gay Straight Alliance club or whatever, I ask them about these issues. You wouldn't believe some of the answers I get. The way things ought to be, ideally held by someone strongly invested in the topic, is very rarely the way things actually are in real life.

>>8360738
It's just a well-known hypothesis for why stockholm syndrome is a thing, I never said it's men's fault, although technically it was probably men doing the abuse. It's only a hypothesis though, there's no proven theory for why stockholm syndrome exists.

>>8360741
Anon, you need some science in your life. I'm not going to debate this with you.

F'rinstance, some groups of people are now taller and stronger because of better nutrition. Puberty hits some groups earlier because of environmental factors and for girls the presence of adult unrelated men in the home (stepfathers) being more common now.
This isn't evolution.

>>8360761
t13 (lolol mfw georgetown btfo'd) or bust nigga

>>8360746
I'm not playing that game. Don't just be a naysayer, contribute something.

>>8360772
That doesn't account for everything though.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/humans-are-still-evolving-and-we-can-watch-it-happen

>>8360776
i was implying that yes it is.

>>8360780
I'm not say it does. But don't cite certain populations of people being taller now than 100 years ago, or groups of girls getting menses earlier than 100 years ago, as being evidence of evolution. If you do, you lose all credibility because that's not what's going on in such cases.
I'm not denying that evolution exists. I'm saying that those two examples aren't evolution, so if you lead off with those examples you'll be laughed out of the debate.

>>8360761
>You're putting the cart before the horse, assuming that the parents' actions are abusive/neglectful in the first instance.
What approach do you suggest instead?

A tattoo is a totally different matter for many reasons, not least the facts that it's cosmetic, removable, isn't cultural the way fitting in as a girl is, and can be done later with no negative consequences. So I'm not going to give an opinion on that. But refusing their daughter her transition is abuse and neglect.

Obviously there's debate about this but I see no reason why there is anything legitimate about the anti-trans side's view.

>I ask them about these issues. You wouldn't believe some of the answers I get.
?

As a lesbian I think we have higher domestic abuse rates because a lot of us are butch and have more testosterone. The butch ones usually have some sort of dyke napoleon complex and since there is no taboo on women beating women, they beat the shit out of their gfs.

>>8360788
Oh. Now I'm lost about which of us is saying what.
Is it a stereotype that gay men have more career opportunities and better jobs and more money, on average, than gay women? Does that stereotype not exist anymore? It did thirty years ago.
And if that stereotype still exists, is there a kernel of truth in it?
And if that stereotype no longer exists, what changed?

>>8360472
hey

>>8360799
>Obviously there's debate about this but I see no reason why there is anything legitimate about the anti-trans side's view.
Umm...then if you don't see any reason why there's anything legitimate about the side you oppose, then you're not acknowledging that a legitimate debate exists?

I didn't come here to debate this trans issue. And I'm not taking either side, I'm simply involved in such a case before the court at the moment.
Maybe I should start another thread about that issue, it seems to be getting more traction than my question about abusive spousal relationships in lesbian or gay male couples.

>>8360791
Except early menses is linked to epigenetic changes as a result of xenoestrogens and birth control though
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3102328/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171169/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5293543/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/05/21/i-thought-id-seen-it-all-epigenetic-birth-control/

>>8360801
>and since there is no taboo on women beating women
If that's true, it answers the question.
Does it come down to this?
When a woman (even a bull dyke) beats up another woman, it "doesn't count" because women can't be abusive by some kind of definition? That's very interesting, and strikes me as a strong factor.

>>8360825
Right, that's environmental factors rather than evolution, correct?

>>8360820
Correct, I see nothing legitimate about the debate over whether abusing and neglecting children because they are trans is acceptable.

>>8360839
And what else is evolution? Evolution has no end goal, it has no positives, no negatives.
Mutations are a mutation, it's evolution. Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean it's not a result.

>>8360828
Yes, it could also be that beating up her gf makes her feel stronger and more like a "man". It asserts dominance. But yeah, there is definitely no taboo on women beating women. For the most part because women in general rarely resort to physical violence towards eachother. It's only the masculine women who have more of a propensity to do it.

>>8360828
>When a woman (even a bull dyke) beats up another woman, it "doesn't count" because women can't be abusive by some kind of definition?
Surely you've seen the gender bias in the courtroom and before then, when it comes to arrests and prosecutions?

>>8360844
I'm not going to debate this with you. Honestly, I feel like you don't understand what evolution is. Adaptation, within the genetic framework, isn't mutation and it isn't evolution.

Look at a coyote male and female. Let's say they mate. Then the male dies. Without the presence of the impregnating male, the female will have a larger litter. That's not evolution or mutation, that's an environmental factor already present in the existing genetic makeup, even if it doesn't pop up every generation.

Anyway, if you want to start your own thread on the subject, go ahead and I'll discuss it with you there. Please let this drop.

>>8360848
But I see more "domestic violence" cases between lesbian spousal cohabitational relationships than between similar gay male relationships. Is it just me? Or is "domestic violence" by some sort of stereotypical definition, unable to be committed by a woman, whether upon a man or upon another woman?

>>8360873
But epigenetics causes mutations for several generations and given our current lifespan that means even if we were to straight up ban all xenoestrogens and birth control right at this very moment we'd see the effects of it on the human population for a minimum of at least like 200-400 years.
It's environmental of course, but the environment mutated our genes thus it's still qualified as evolution. We will not return to humans having normal starting periods for puberty for probably 500-1000 years given the current pace at which we discover these things.

>>8360872
>Surely you've seen the gender bias in the courtroom and before then, when it comes to arrests and prosecutions?
I've seen all sorts of biases. Can you be more specific and exact?

>>8360882
>It's environmental of course, but the environment mutated our genes thus it's still qualified as evolution.
Sorry, wrong. Even if that is mutation, which I dispute, it's not evolution.

Unless that "mutation"gives those possessing the new gene a reproductive advantage, those mutated genes won't be passed on.

Fuck, I can't believe I'm still debating this with you. Start your own thread! Go to the science board, see what they say.

>>8360885
Actually now I want to hear the sorts you've seen?

>>8360902
Not why I started the thread, sorry. This isn't AMA, at least this time.

Plus I feel like you're just baiting me. Argue with that anon who doesn't understand the difference between adaptive reaction to environmental stress which is within the genetic make, and mutation/evolution.

>>8360901
Reproductive advantage was a subpoint of Darwins original theory of evolution, not the main point.
The main point of evolution is that there is no goal to evolution. Darwin said each generation of evolution is not guaranteed to be better than the last. He gave a rather crude example of game theory, before game theory was even a thing, and that a group of individuals with very low reproduction could surpass a group of individuals with very high reproduction which is entirely why humans succeeded in the first place given our very low rate of reproduction compared to other mammals. Intelligence and societal bonding surpasses reproduction as well as the ability to speed up things like genetic drift which humans far far surpass every other species on the planet at. Nowadays we use things like Nash's game theory to explain evolutionary success.
Also evolution doesn't guarantee success because if it did why aren't all our ancestors still alive? There's no homo erectus roaming around, they were an evolutionary dead end and they certainly had no issues having sex.

>>8360881
I think women are less likely to stop themselves from doing it in the heat of the moment because there is no big taboo. But women in general are more likely to report these cases than gay men. We live in a culture where women are encouraged to report abuse so that could be a factor.

>>8360921
You already BTFO'd him. I was literally about to make a post like >>8360873 but then you did.

>>8360938
Oh please this thread would be buried on the last page if it wasn't for me. OP should be posting his dick as a thank you to me for not letting his thread get buried on /tttt/

>>8360958
No there'd be plenty of posts and OP might feel not frustrated enough to actually share interesting things like I asked.

>>8360963
There's like fucking 5 gay people on this board at best, and like 4 of them are trans in denial.

>>8360937
But is there any "stigma" for a women to report being abused by another woman, either to the reporting woman or the reported abuser?

>>8360967
No, I wouldn't say so.

>>8360967
I've heard people say that the lesbian abuse rate being high is actually a false rate because women are more likely to report nearly anything as abuse. Maybe that's just misogyny though.

>>8360975
It makes a LOT of sense. This is why hearing the bias OP has seen would be valuable. Men learn from experience to man up and ignore abuse and women learn when they complain they are listened to. It's something they experience growing up from their parents and teachers, and it holds true when it comes to law too. Just being gay or lesbian won't vanish such strongly ingrained culture.

>>8360975
Apparently that study also didn't distinguish as to who was the abuser. So bisexual women in relationships with other women who reported abuse by previous male partners were counted as well. The methodology was a little flawed. Same thing with that lesbian bed death study.

>>8360971
That's really interesting. So this is strictly cultural / societal / taboo of an issue?
>>8360975
>I've heard people say that the lesbian abuse rate being high is actually a false rate because women are more likely to report nearly anything as abuse. Maybe that's just misogyny though.
Yeah, that's where I'm tripping up. My only "evidence" is circumstantial, and to raise these topics seriously in any circumstance is to invite vitriol from at least one group or other.

>>8360988
It makes sense knowing cultural stereotypes only though, that's the thing. It's all stereotypes we don't explore because of misandry and misogyny.
Like what are you supposed to do? Ask girls if that smack was just a "love tap"? lol

>>8360998
>Like what are you supposed to do? Ask girls if that smack was just a "love tap"? lol
Yeah, that's a good way of expressing the double standard, gay or straight.

I'm a lesbian and my previous gf was abusive as well as being the dominant one in the relationship. We didn't have any kids and I've never been in a heterosexual relationship, so I'm not much help as far as what you want to know, but I don't see why it would be different.

>>8361013
We could get professional wife beaters to quantify abuse.
We'll bring in chad the wife beater, and he'll be trained to beat you on a sliding scale and whenever you say stop then that's the level of beating you received and that's how you know whether they've been abused.

I'll signup for level 1 if it includes buttsecks.

>>8361017
Thanks for that, anon. Did you discuss your relationship with others, maybe girls in who were in straight relationships and being abused too?

What I really want to hear is from someone who was in a heterosexual and a homosexual relationship on separate occasions, and if there was abuse in one or the other, was the situation any different by the simple merit of being straight vs. gay?

>>8361034
You should probably look into psychological abuse because it's way way more prevalent and it manifests in ways you wouldn't think.
Like having sudden onset severe depression due to a relationship isn't just something that pops out of nowhere and it doesn't mean anything physical is occurring.

>>8360423
What ever happened to your attempt to argue that the overwhelming majority of medical opinion was wrong and it was good to keep a kid from doctors?

Weren't people going to bring that up with the bar?

I'd figure given your "interest in parental right's" and religous laws, you'd be taking up a case for Jehovah Witness to let them kill their kid by not providing blood transfusions. Or maybe a honor killing case arguing that their parents were within their right to stone their daughter to death?

Why do you want advice when you simply represent conspiracy theorists and terrorists?

>>8361061
>You should probably look into psychological abuse because it's way way more prevalent and it manifests in ways you wouldn't think.
>Like having sudden onset severe depression due to a relationship isn't just something that pops out of nowhere and it doesn't mean anything physical is occurring.
I hear that, but any abuse other than demonstrable physical abuse becomes a a battle of hearsay in court.

>>8361076
>I'd figure given your "interest in parental right's" and religous laws, you'd be taking up a case for Jehovah Witness to let them kill their kid by not providing blood transfusions. Or maybe a honor killing case arguing that their parents were within their right to stone their daughter to death?
You have no idea how to make a point.

>>8360653
>>8360708
>>8360761

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

If you forgot, the evidence says that not getting treatment leads to a 4000% lifetime mortality increase.

If you're encouraging them to not bring their child to any doctors, then you're placing the child in danger.


And it's definitely an ethical violation to try and deprive patients of medical attention.

This should be reported, people here should try and look through records to find the family and you and bring this up to the bar and medical groups.

>>8360761

You're making bestiality comparisons and talking about children and sex. Odds are good you're the ban evading pedophile Sage and report >>8360423 everyone. Get rid of the pedophiles.

>>8361085
Says the pedophile. You already admitted who you are and your bestiality analogy matched up with the strings in the archive. There's no point in allowing men who want sex with kids in here.

>>8361094
>This should be reported, people here should try and look through records to find the family and you and bring this up to the bar and medical groups.
Uh, sure. You do that. Everything is sealed by law.

Still off topic, too.

OK, this is getting silly. I'm out.

Thanks to you anons who gave some thoughtful and thought provoking comments. The rest of you go back to /pol/ or whatever.

>>8361103
Irrelevant when your computer is full of child porn. No wonder you spend so much time creeping around and talking to kids in elementary school. Hopefully the janitors report you to the authorities.

>>8361105
Because people were right about your child porn stash?

>>8361105
omg op calm the fuck down you're getting trolled on a fucking tranny board and you're upset, how did you even survive on 4chan before this?

>>8360805
Not who you were talking to, but I wasn't even aware that stereotype existed. If anything I would guess lesbians make more money on average than gay men. I don't have a source for this, just my personal experiences.