Is it FTMs or MTFs who benefit the most from Feminism?

>>8352433
FTM get both sides of the female privilige coin. MTF get none.

>>8352433
MTFs benefit from feminism, because it sends guys straight into our arms.

>>8352433
NEITHER. Only the the conniving doctors and the shills marching with them.

>>8352470
both sides of the coin? how so?

>>8352481
true, true

>>8352433
Both will be exploited by feminism so that it can stay relevant. Then promptly discarded when they can no longer serve that purpose

>>8352433
in this generation of feminism id say feminists benefit the most from feminism

>>8352433
It depends on if you're actually perceived as male or female either way.

A lot of feminists don't like trans folk.

As an MTF, feminism is a toxic ideology that hates your guts if it perceives you as masculine, or otherwise it'll latch onto you and use your situation like a sick punchline to further their echo chamber of self-victimizing.

Also, I will absolutely hate feminists forever. They treat womanhood like it's some in-group, and invalidate your opinion on anything mildly political simply because they view you as a man. They're incredibly driven by fear and hatred of the unknown - in this case, anyone who doesn't fall into their extremely selective and often cherry picked qualifications of being in the oppressed class.

"Oh you're a mixed trans-woman? Well you're not X so you don't know true oppression" - rich entitled pretty girl

Even worse, feminists know they have practically nothing to nitpick, other than office temperatures being to cold and men not being instantly imprisoned for a rape accusation, so they appropriate other groups struggles by calling it "intersectionality".

These fucking feminists, I would trade my life with the average life of a feminist any day, yet they seem to make a living on how ""oppressed"" they are.

>>8352470
This is the only answer you need

>>8352433
Feminism is cancer!

>>8362184
That's every clique on Earth. Dumb people rely on us vs them exclusively because it's easy to meme and regurgitate out on command like a worker ant laying pheromones. You will never get anything besides "us vs. them", because they believe in the nature meme and worship mankind when he was a hunter-gatherer savage over when he accomplished anything at all.

>>8362184
I'm sorry you have a difficult life. I hope it gets better.

The feminists who treat femininity like an in-group are TERFS (trans-exlusionary radical feminists) though. Not the same crowd. It's like an outdated form of feminism, and you're right, it's complete shit.

Intersectional feminists hate TERFs.

FtM benefit from male privilege (because male) and from feminism (because trans).

MtFs benefit from feminism, but not all feminists are trans-inclusionary and cis people are inherently ignorant about trans issues.

So we need more trans feminists to educate them. From all the cis people, I'd say intersectional feminists are most eager to learn.

>>8364028
>MtFs benefit from feminism
since when?

>>8365671
Fuck off /pol/.

>>8352433
feminism is not for males, so ftms benefit.

>>8362154
>>8362184
I love MTFs who don't fall for feminism's HONeyed tones.

Rich women benefit from feminism. I don't think anyone else does at all, I say as a cis woman. I think it used to be benefitting more middle class women in the 70s maybe (?) like with helping access to jobs, credit cards, etc.

>>8362184

Lots of feminists are trans btw, especially on internet feminist circles. Then they will tell cis women who aren't feminist how internalized misogyny they are.

>>8373891
Why do you say it doesn't benefit men, poor/less well off women or mtfs?

>>8373904

It just doesn't to me. Like, I have a lot of problems and I go to feminists and they are bitching about the most random stuff.

Women have/are:
-Higher poverty
-Higher rate of depression/anxiety/ptsd, less able to handle stress, more suicidal
-More likely to be head of household (childcare, pregnancy etc)
-Seen as less competent
-Weaker physically
-More susceptible to most form of addiction
-More susceptible to pain

And feminists then focus on the most random crap in the whole entire world that afaict, helps nobody:
-Internet men are bitching about some theatre holding a woman only screening of Wonder Woman (who cares but this is the big feminism story right now)
-How many women are in video games
-Planned parenthood which actually only helps prevent parenthood afaict and doesn't actually help parents (uhh).
-Rich women and female celebrities deserve more respect, various rich women like Taylor Swift or Beyonce or whoever and how empowering they are and how they got offended by some dumb bs. (huh?)
-Wow look thing X is so empowering to women!!! Buy thing X!!! BUY IT!!!

Look at this crap:
http://jezebel.com/

I have not been helped by any contemporary feminism at all. Its all focused on the most trivial shit or whining about stuff and not actually helping anyone. Where is the actual action to help anyone? I can't imagine men are either, or most trans people.

>>8373964
>linking the entirety of jezebel
kek

Disclaimer, I'm not a feminist and am very critical of it as an ideology. But to be fair, I think a lot of the things you take issue with are results of the commodification of feminism, not feminism itself, and a fair few people who call themselves feminists would agree with you.

Now that everyone basically agrees women should have rights, the specific ideology of feminism has been turned into a default. "If you're not a feminist you must be against womens' rights," (which isn't true at all, just like you don't have to be a Christian to have a sense of morality, or a communist to value sharing, etc). No one wants to be seen as a woman-hater anymore, so that leaves a solid exploitation on which to market an invented need. So companies capitalise on it with bullshit stories like the Wonder Woman thing (now people in different fucking countries know the name of that theatre, they probably couldn't say that before they pulled this stunt).
And anyone who doesn't value feminism, they fuel the fire by calling out the bullshit, which creates a back and fourth so the situation escalates all on it's own without the companies benefiting from it needing to do anything.

Everyone shares this bullshit around whether they're pro or anti. Just like everyone's buying fidget spinners to show off either how cool they are, or how ironically uncool.

Personally, I can't really blame feminism for all this bullshit, but the bullshit has really rendered feminism obsolete, since the term feminist has been watered down so much that it doesn't mean anything anymore. Everything is simultaneously feminist and unfeminist, empowering and exploitative, and "real" feminists, reasonable people, now operate under the same umbrella as Tumblr teenagers, money grubbing corporations, actual misandrist female supremacists, and general dickbags who use feminism as a convenient excuse for their dickbagery.

It's like Invader Zim vs Invader Zim fans.

>>8373891
That's bourgeois feminism, which happens to be the most common.
Feminism that's beneficial to working class women and such has kind of died off.

>>8375988
>and am very critical of it as an ideology.
What are you critical of exactly?

>>8376039
>implying it ever was in any form

>>8373964
>more suicidal
And yet it's men who commit most suicides.

>>8376101

And yet how the fuck does that matter to anything I wrote? Men committing suicides is based off methods used and successful suicides are much rarer than failed ones.

>>8376351
False.

>>8376363

True.

>In the U.S., the NIMH reports there are 11 nonfatal suicide attempts for every suicide death.[1] The American Association of Suicidology reports higher numbers, stating that there are 25 suicide attempts for every suicide completion.[2] By these numbers, approximately 92-95% of suicide attempts end in survival.
>75% of all suicide attempts are by self-poisoning, a method that is often thwarted because the drug is nonlethal, or is used at a nonlethal dosage. These people survive 97% of the time.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt
>Suicide attempts are between two and four times more frequent among females.[6][7][8] Researchers have attributed the difference between attempted and completed suicides among the sexes to males using more lethal means to end their lives.[5][9][10]
>The extent of suicidal thoughts is not clear, but research suggests that suicidal thoughts are more common among females than among males.[8][12]

Men are more violent, they make up more successful suicides for the same reason they are >90% of homicides. They use violent means like guns rather than less violent means like self-poisoning which fails 97% of the time.

But like.......I dont even care? Like.....it has nothing to do with what I wrote, you don't give a shit you just want to ignore the fact that so many women constantly want to kill themselves and instead want to focus on how violent men are thats fine but don't bother me about it.

>>8376351
>Men committing suicides is based off methods used
And huge factor in the deadliness of methods used is that people who refuse to seek help are more likely to only attempt suicide when they're determined to genuinely die, hence choosing deadlier methods. People who are more willing to seek/accept help are more likely to make earlier, more survivable attempts.
The latter is just more common in women, and the former more common in men, due to cultural factors.

(Different anon to the one who brought it up, and I agree I don't see the point as particularly relevant, but I won't pretend I wasn't thinking it).

>>8376388
The numbers you give don't add up. According to them men would have to attempt suicide nearly three times the rate them do for that to be the only explanation.

Why are the other 80% of female unsuccessful suicides failures when that's not accounted for by the different method?

>>8376351
Why do men actually try to kill themselves instead of using non-lethal methods to attempt?

Because they know there's no help out there for them.

A cry for help only works if somebody might listen.

>>8376402
>And huge factor in the deadliness of methods used is that people who refuse to seek help are more likely to only attempt suicide when they're determined to genuinely die, hence choosing deadlier methods.
Nah thats random bs speculation you pulled out of your ass with absolutely zero data to back it up. Men are far more likely to own and use guns period, which is the most effective type of suicide (90% effective). With or without being depressed or suicidal.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/160223/men-married-southerners-likely-gun-owners.aspx

They are also more violent period, again, see 90% of homicides committed by men. They use more violent methods without being suicidal. So why when they use violence against themselves you make up some story about how "people who commit suicides don't want help, thats why they are more violent"?

> Studies have shown that females are 13–21% more likely than males to receive a psychiatric affective diagnosis.[28] 72–89% of females who committed suicide had contact with a mental health professional at some point in their life and 41–58% of males who committed suicide had contact with a mental health professional.[28]
Oh look a majority of people who kill themselves were seeking help at the time, regardless of gender and the gap on help isn't even that high (not as big as the gap on actual attempted suicides, in which case women are 2x-4x more likely to attempt). Getting help doesn't mean very much, IME, because the vast majority of therapists just want paycheck and don't give a shit. And suicide line is a joke.

So where did you invent your story from?

>>8376388
> but don't bother me about it.
Well full disclosure, you've piqued an interest in me and I'm going to go off on a fairyland tangent right now, so feel free to just ignore this post entirely.

I wonder what the statistic would look like if everyone used the same method. Like, are womens' attempt statistics inflated due to multiple attempts by the same people?
If only the first attempt for everyone was counted, whether it was successful or not, would there still be a gender gap, or would it be equalised?
Would less women attempt suicide if we lived in a world where the only method was utterly unsurvivable, as opposed to methods like drugs and cutting which are known to be survivable?
Would less men attempt suicide if the lethal method was less violent? Would more men attempt suicide if the violent methods were less lethal?

Exit bags are a very nonviolent, yet highly lethal approach, what

So many questions.

Also, take this with a grain of salt because it's literally the first thing I found on google while looking for something else, but the graphs in link related show that men commit suicide by poisoning at equal or greater rates than women, with all methods just being all around higher.
https://www.theverge.com/2015/3/5/8156703/suicide-rates-statistics-young-adults-us

Like I said, interest fucking piqued, my search history is gonna suffer tonight.

>>8376416
What are you talking about? I mean it this literally, I don't understand your post.

>>8376432
BS, same garbage useless resources are out there for women same as men. See also >>8376435. You can go to therapist and take citalophram too. You can call a hotline too. They are all garbage IME but that's all women get and that's all men get too.

Also amazing you want to turn a post about how women are vastly more depressed, anxious, suicidal and more prone to breaking under stress to be all about how ~there's no help for men~. wtf.

>>8376445
Your numbers. Run the math. Your own figures prove the method only accounts for a small part of the difference in successful suicides.

>>8376435
>Nah thats random bs speculation you pulled out of your ass with absolutely zero data to back it up.
You didn't ask me for any data, that's a random bs speculation you pulled out of your ass with absolutely zero data to back it up.

>72–89% of females
>41–58% of males
...Thanks for proving my point?

>>8376445
>Also amazing you want to turn a post about how women are vastly more depressed, anxious, suicidal and more prone to breaking under stress to be all about how ~there's no help for men~. wtf.
Amazing that you didn't anticipate this in a thread about feminism on 4chan.
Why are you so mad?

every cis female that kills itself makes the world a better place

>>8352433
I'm kinda conflicted on whether or not it helps or hurts trans people.

Supporters of social justice are the loudest voices in trans rights, but at the same time, everyone hates them because most of them are authoritarian assholes, so their avid support for us makes us look bad by association. It doesn't help that they spread the myth that "gender is a social construct" either, which applies far more to gender roles than gender itself.

>>8376456
You said people who commit suicide only use violent methods because there's "no help". This is not true, those are successful suicide numbers and they WERE "getting help" when they died, with the difference in diagnosis/help not covering the gap in attempted suicide. You also ignored the fact that men are much more violent and own/use guns (the most effective form) much more often, so.

>>8376444
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/

Even firearms fail 13% of the time, and then suffocation/hanging and drowning also, almost 40%. There is no 100% suicide method.

I think exit bags you only hear about from the internet, never heard the term irl or even in the media. No idea how common it is to use exit bags but I think you'd need to be big in internet culture to get it. Even in Europe where access to guns is limited, they are more likely to use hanging than exit bag.

>An overdose is often the expressed preferred method of dignified dying among members of right-to-die societies. A poll among members of right-to-die society Exit International suggested that 89% would prefer to take a pill, rather than use a plastic exit bag, a CO generator, or use "slow euthanasia".[83] Death by helium inhalation however is the more common method preferred in practice, largely owing to its reliability.[84]

89% of people in Exit International want to take pills rather than use exit bags.

>>8376501
>and they WERE "getting help" when they died
With men getting it at almost half the rate of women.

What I said could very well turn out to be a bunk snapple factoid if it were scrutinised, but the kneejerk insistence that I personally made it up just now is retarded. It's something that's very commonly brought up. To the point that it's kind of weird that someone who has a bunch of suicide statistics readily on hand has seemingly never encountered it before.

And it's not as if you've put forth any data showing your own explanation of men simply being more violent holds any water, or even exists outside of your own personal speculation.

>>8376527
>With men getting it at almost half the rate of women.
I'd be VERY surprised if it was that many.

File: 4824_WallpaperPlay_mr-robot-wallpaper-10-30339_1920x1080.jpg (765KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

765KB, 1920x1080px

Feminism itself only really helps women, it is against men and for all of you who are going to come back and call me some form of CIS-GENDERED KEK, here is the thing, if you want equality so you're a feminist then you a part of the wrong group, Feminism helps women and then mask it by saying it's for everyone, for those, don't believe me, could you explain to me exactly how Air-Conditioning is oppressing to women. You want to be able to remain anon when you are giving out a rape accusation which if you look at the logic that is pretty unfair and shitty of you, your fighting against cis white males when they are the same as you, they are born that way, the same as you. YES you are born the way you are but it can be altered - Look at what happens to people at prision to adapt to their situation.
To put it simply Feminism is for women and anyone who says otherwise doesn't really understand feminism.

- Pro Equalist

>>8376527
>With men getting it at almost half the rate of women.
Wtf. No more like almost 65% the rate, and for all diagnosis women are only 13-21% more likely, meanwhile women attempt suicide at 200-400% of the rate that men do.

>And it's not as if you've put forth any data showing your own explanation of men simply being more violent holds any water, or even exists outside of your own personal speculation.

>Men accounted for 80.4 percent of persons arrested for violent crime
>Males were convicted of the vast majority of homicides in the United States, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders.[47]
>a 2012 review by researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health found that in the United States, the percent of suicide attempts that prove fatal is "strongly related to the availability of household firearms."[188]

Men are 3x more likely to own a gun, which account for the majority of successful suicides in the USA (while only being a tiny minority of suicide attempts).
http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/

Is the reason for mens much higher homicide rate just because they aren't talking to enough therapists?

>>8376558
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/11904203/Well-done-feminism.-Now-man-are-afraid-to-help-women-at-work.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/12045740/Todays-feminists-are-so-out-of-touch-with-how-most-women-live-they-might-as-well-be-on-another-planet.html

>>8376565
>Wtf. No more like almost 65% the rate
Almost, faggot.

>and for all diagnosis women are only 13-21% more likely,
Who cares about diagnoses?

The rest of your post is still just your own speculation. Unless you can give me an outside source theorising that the reason for more male suicide is that males are more violent in general, then you're just speculating. And that's fine, maybe it holds water maybe it doesn't, but if you're going to speculate, don't flip out accusing other people of doing the same thing. Especially when they're just regurgitating shit that you probably should have heard of before.

This shit is on fucking wikipedia it's so common
>A common explanation relies on the social constructions of hegemonic masculinity and femininity. According to literature on gender and suicide, male suicide rates are explained in terms of traditional gender roles. Male gender roles tend to emphasize greater levels of strength, independence, and risk-taking behavior.[18] Reinforcement of this gender role often prevents males from seeking help for suicidal feelings and depression.[19]

Again, not saying it's correct, just that you're retarded if you think it just now came into being from the imagination of some faggot on 4chan.

(I don't dispute the access to firearms argument though).

>>8376586
>>8376565

Actually, an interesting tidbit on the firearms thing from a non-burgerland perspective
>In Europe, where the gender discrepancy is the greatest, a study found that the most frequent method of suicide among both genders was hanging; however, the use of hanging was significantly higher in males (54.3%) than in females (35.6%). The same study found that the second most common methods were firearms (9.7%) for men and poisoning by drugs (24.7%) for women.

>>8376483
>Supporters of social justice are the loudest voices in trans rights, but at the same time, everyone hates them because most of them are authoritarian assholes, so their avid support for us makes us look bad by association.

The confrontational style of SJWs is polarizing and can make it harder to get social acceptance, which is what we trans people need most. Laws and policies that put barriers in the way of us living our lives need to change, but that's not enough to get people to accept us.

>It doesn't help that they spread the myth that "gender is a social construct" either, which applies far more to gender roles than gender itself.

Yes, I think the whole gender as a social construct thing hurts. It implies gender dysphoria is also a social construct, when it's really a serious medical condition needing treatment.

>>8352433


Feminism benefitted ftms but only because it broke down expected gender norms in society for women. So ftms aren't as ostracized amongst cis women.

Meanwhile mtf's benefitted from the newer wave of feminism being more accepting of mtfs. However the problem with mtfs are more so due to males nowadays.

Males gender police people who are amab and there isn't a movement amongst men to read down gender norms without being called "gay". As a result more transphobia comes from men than women.

>>8352433
Modern day feminism? None.

MTF get talked down to as if they're fragile children with polio, who are "so brave" to transition but are too fragile to have opinions of their own, especially if those opinions don't tow the feminist line.

FTM is viewed as traitorous to the "sisterhood" of feminism as FTM get "male privilege" and thus are relegated to the "sit down and shut up when the women are talking" speech.

>>8352433
>FEMINISM IS FOR EVERYONE.
Pull the other one.

>>8376388
>men are only successful at suicide because they're just violent and using actual effectual methods while women are more likely to use nonlethal methods
So what you're saying is that when men try to kill themselves its because they actually want to die whereas women just want attention?

>>8352433
I don't think anyone but cis women really benefit from it

>>8356217
Feminists are the ones the most harmed by feminism since their echochamber encourages unhealthy ideas (victim mentality etc.)

>>8380541
>So what you're saying is that when men try to kill themselves its because they actually want to die whereas women just want attention?

Nah the majority of suicides for both sexes fail. And absolutely nothing is implied about "wanting attention" thats just something mras tell themselves so they can keep exploiting suicide victims for internet fights while ignoring the vast majority of suicidal people.

>>8381042
clinical psychologist here, I don't have much to add, but it may be easier to use the phrase 'parasuicide' here instead of... whatever y'all are using for suicidal gestures for attention. more concise.

and in my personal opinion, the disparity between success rates has nothing to do with increased tendency towards parasuicide and more to do with access to more lethal modes of suicide. as has been said.

>>8352433
no one benefits from feminism but many people think they do and they support it

>>8381073

> it may be easier to use the phrase 'parasuicide' here instead of... whatever y'all are using for suicidal gestures for attention.
What are you talking about? I am not talking about """""parasuicides""""" but rather suicide attempts.

>>8373964

>weaker phisically

yes, goy, women are definitely on par with men physically

>>8352433
I don't think trans people benefit for being trans. Transwomen benefit as women from having more opportunities than would be the case 60 years ago. Today's SJW feminism doesn't help though. It's more a piece of the identity politics puzzle. It's also not good if feminism causes men and women to see each other as enemies.

>>8381435
>It's also not good if feminism causes men and women to see each other as enemies.
Feminism is bad then.

Have you ever seen a feminist before?

They are completely obsessed with worshipping MtF

>>8352433
Neither. But it directly adversely affects MTFs

>>8375988
>commodification of feminism
This post reeks *sniff* some post-ideological bullshit.

>>8388116
>They are completely obsessed with worshipping MtF

Really?

>tfw no cis feminist to domme and boss around

>>8388568
???