PsCis

>>8297902
This picture made my ATP and weight dysphoria flare up

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>>8297902
Not funny anymore

>>8297966
But this is a serious question. We need to find out if PsCis is a thing.

I'm also open to hearing anecdotes about pseudocissexuality.

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>>8297902

>>8298070
What do you have against PsCis people? Are you pseudocisphobic?

>>8298023
This all just stupid and useless. What's the point in this when we're all better off dead?

>>8297902
Sounds legit.

>>8298096
The PsCisses aren't better off dead. They're better off cis so they can get off to themselves.

>>8298103
I mean, the concept was invented by an AAP cis man, and I only started taking it seriously when the very next cis man I told about the concept said that he was probably PsCis.

>>8297902
Most of the femboys are autofemboyphiles.

>>8298420
I know, I'm the one who pointed that out on this board. That's why they have their own poll, separate from the non-femboys.

Some femboys are PsCis, though.

>>8297902
>tfw you literally made up this term as a parody of AGP idiocy and now there are people out there treating it seriously
Maybe this is actually what happened to Ray and he's too embarrassed to admit it.

>>8298469
To be fair, we'd discussed it before you made up the term, now we just have a word for it. I suggested it to Trent (Blanchardian Anon) 27 days ago, and he agreed that it was probably common.

>>8298486
More history:

The idea was actually invented by a feminine autoandrophilic cis gay man that I'm friends with, to try to fit his experiences to Blanchardianism. When I suggested it to my brother, who's also gay and kinda GNC, he found it very insightful and felt that it explained his gender feels very well.

>>8297902
wut

also I forgot is HSTS Homo or Hetero

>>8298514
HSTSs are homosexual in their cis morph and heterosexual in their trans morph. A HSTS person is (almost? Possible counterexamples include Andreja Pejic and Gigi Gorgeous) always exclusively attracted to people of their assigned sex.

>>8297902
wewest of wews

I really need to leave this place, you people are fucking ridiculous

>>8298486
>>8298507
You have to be trolling at this point but the scary thing is that I know you're not. This is a communal game of pretend where you're play-acting a researcher with some sort of special insight, when in reality you're posting polls on image boards and discussing pseudoscientific theories you're not equipped to understand in the first place.

Autoeroticism is a simple, documented orientation. Not conforming to gender isn't by itself some grand sign that you're secretly a transsexual.

>>8298534
I seriously thought it was a joke, then a false flag attempt, but no, they're serious. It's amazing and horrifying.

>>8298553
I really hope this stays contained here, because this sort of shit could be more damaging than a legion of Rileys, Milos and Caitlyns

>>8298568
Only the truth is dangerous.

>>8298568
but Pseudo-Cissexuality is real

>>8298023
I'm honestly really tired, this isn't funny anymore it won't stop me from wanting to cut my neck

>>8298568
I kinda think the other way around. So long as these people stay this ridiculous no one will take them seriously. If they can spread this fucking mind virus to the rest of the people who keep trying to dig up AGP's rotting corpse it would go a long way toward convincing everyone the idea is idiotic.

>>8298587
I'm sorry that you are depressed and hope you will feel better soon, but I'm 85% serious about the PsCis thing.

>>8298587
You should ditch this crowd and get help. For what it counts I hope you don't hurt yourself.

>>8298576
What's dangerous is making people think something is wrong with them when they are perfectly happy and comfortable with who they are. People will always strive to have a better understanding of themselves, sure, but pushing some pseudopsych is not helpful and is the only "real" pseudo anything on this board.

>>8298580
so it's already gone from unconfirmed in >>8298023 to it being real? You sound delusional.

>>8298597
Cis people (and people in general) are ignorant a lot of the time so they'll believe anything is valid so long as there has been a study about it.

>>8298620
I don't think a strawpoll on a Micronesian manta ray training commune is going to convince any cis people that they're secretly just repressed transsexuals with a fetish for being straight.

>>8298620
>What's dangerous is making people think something is wrong with them when they are perfectly happy and comfortable with who they are. People will always strive to have a better understanding of themselves, sure, but pushing some pseudopsych is not helpful and is the only "real" pseudo anything on this board.
There's nothing wrong with being PsCis. We just need to acknowledge that it's not the same as ordinary cis, otherwise the "cis people are AGP too" meme will never die.

> so it's already gone from unconfirmed in >>8298023 (You) to it being real? You sound delusional.
Those are two different posters.

>>8298486
>Trent

Literally thread dropped

>>8298637
>cis people that they're secretly just repressed transsexuals with a fetish for being straight.

My point was more that cis people could more easily vilify trans people than they already do.

Manta Rays are majestic af though

>>8298648
>We just need to acknowledge that it's not the same as ordinary cis, otherwise the "cis people are AGP too" meme will never die.
Why does it matter?

>Those are two different posters.
I'm aware and I was saying they're delusional. FYI you're delusion too, for what it's worth

>>8298648
>We just need to acknowledge that it's not the same as ordinary cis, otherwise the "cis people are AGP too" meme will never die.
lmao
autoeroticism has been known to exist for a very very very long time

>>8298670
>My point was more that cis people could more easily vilify trans people than they already do.
I honestly, honestly don't see how. It posits *not* transitioning as "unnatural" fetishistic behavior. Autogynephilia flipped on its head to suggest that seemingly normal cis people are in fact just secret perverts who won't take the natural, right course of transitioning.

>>8298665
Trent is good though.

>>8298670
> Why does it matter?
Ok really it's just that PsCis is a very interesting concept. I don't care much for the politics of it.

> I'm aware and I was saying they're delusional. FYI you're delusion too, for what it's worth
But there are people who say they're PsCis! Isn't that worth examining?

>>8298680
Most of my surveys on autoeroticism have given really ambiguous results.

>>8298710
Why are you so sex-negative? If staying cis is what gets them off then who are we to judge?

>>8298710
Ooh, I think I get you now. Let's hope so.

>>8298716
Trent is tedious Blanchad fuccboi

>Ok really it's just that PsCis is a very interesting concept. I don't care much for the politics of it.

But everything about sexuality these days becomes politicised, regardless of intent

>>8298716
>But there are people who say they're PsCis! Isn't that worth examining?
Just like examining every snowflake that falls to the earth? Not really, but if that's your thing...

>>8298739
>Trent is tedious Blanchad fuccboi
>>Ok really it's just that PsCis is a very interesting concept. I don't care much for the politics of it.
>But everything about sexuality these days becomes politicised, regardless of intent
PsCis sounds too absurd to be accepted in the wider society. It will probably always be academic.

>>But there are people who say they're PsCis! Isn't that worth examining?
>Just like examining every snowflake that falls to the earth? Not really, but if that's your thing...
Not every snowflake, just the interesting ones.

>>8298716
>Most of my surveys on autoeroticism have given really ambiguous results.
You're asking a highly specific, non-random population over the internet! Your surveys are useless. Imagine if I went to Susan's and quizzed them on a bunch of trans-related shit. Would the answers be representative of the general public? Would they tell me about anything but the skewed perception of the people there? Because this is exactly what you're doing.

Stop pretending like any of this is science or even science-adjacent. You're not a researcher. You're not even a first year psychology student.

>>8298857
I know this is not representative. If I wanted more accurate results I've got other methods, but right now I just wanted to hear a vague feel from this community, because it's much easier than studying it properly.

>>8298876
Consider quizzing the community over whether it thinks you're a dimwit.

>>8298887
I did! It's answer was mostly "yes".

>>8298894
I commend your dedication.

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>>8298913
What can I say? I'm Survey Anon, I make surveys.

>>8297902
Survey Anon, are you /u/tailcalled?

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>>8298938
I answered maybe. Now six months later I'm on the verge of a breakdown and sleeping.

I am not the same as you folks, but I'm a transwoman who is coming up on year two of HRT and passes pretty well. I don't really feel trans anymore. I just feel like a cis woman with a birth deformity (aka penis that I am getting surgically corrected) and a hormonal deficency that I need HRT to remedy.

Does that make me psuedo cis?

>>8301946
Not if you only pass "pretty well".

>>8301946
No. PsCis is when you're so attracted to yourself that you weren't interested in transition in the first place.

>>8300709
They are.

>>8301972
Nonsense

>>8301999
Why? Since people can choose to transition because of their attraction to the idea of being the opposite sex, surely they must also be able to choose not to because of their attraction to the idea of staying their current sex.

>>8301946
Are you straight by any chance?

So femboys and butch lesbos who try to look and act like the opposite gender but insist on keeping their birth-given one are PsCis?

>>8297902

PsCis?? HSTS?? Psuedo-cissexual?? What the fuck??

>>8302026
No, those are repressing HSTS.

PsCis would be bi/lesbian girls who act like horny boys and gays who bulk up and jerk off to their own muscles but act femme.

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>>8297902
What the ever loving fuck am I witnessing here? I can't even comprehend what the fuck this is...

>>8302041

What? That is some fucking narcissistic shit, a mental problem, normal people don't get off on themselves.

>>8302046
>xe doesn't know about A*P

>>8302040
>>8302042
>>8302046
PsCis is an entirely valid concept. Why don't you go and complain about the ABDL thread instead?

>>8297902
>>8302041
This describes me perfectly

I'm autogyneandromorphophilic. Or autobisexual. I've always been this way.

It's a blessing and a curse.

Sometimes, when I'm feeling submissive, I get off to my masculine features like my dick and imagine myself making myself cum. Other times when I'm feeling dominant I get off to my feminine features and imagine fucking myself.

Throughout my life I've gone through periods of autogynephobia, where I wanted to be a masc bodybuilder injecting anabolic steroids (felt autoandrophilic, and pseudogynephilic towards others in order to validate my masculinity) and phases of autoandrophobia, where I've wanted to be a cute girl (felt autogynephilic and pseudoandrophilic to validate my femininity).

>>8302199
>implying APP is invalid

>>8304148
Mwuhahaha! They called me mad! But I was right all along!

>>8302010
I am lesbian and have a gf sorry.

>>8297902
How is any cis person pseudo anything? Im having difficulty making heads or tails of this thread.

>>8305744
It's called MetaCis now. That's a better word.

>>8305709
That's
not actually what you spoke of
it's just an autoerotic bisexual with a bunch of fetishes

>>8305808
Op isnt talking about """fetishes""" impeding transition?
The question is whether the fetish is a manifestation of coping with dysphoria or that dysphoria never develops to begin with because of the fetish.

>>8297902
How can this be proven or disproven?

>>8297902
>Pseudo-cissexuality is when one is sufficiently faggy to transition HSTS, but because of self-attraction one would rather stay cis.
HSTS isn't real.

>>8311244
[citation needed]

So what's the next thing, HSTSes who also experience PsAGP?

>>8315689
Burden of proof's on you.

>>8315762
Interesting way of saying "I admit I was speaking out my ass"!

>>8315767
You're making the exceptional claim: that there are two distinct types of transsexuals and that all transsexuals fit into these types. Prove it.

>>8315818
I'm not claiming a thing, just asking for a source on your baseless claims.

>>8315818
A lot of people relate with traits of both AGP and HSTS but someone here linked an autistic hon's blog and they were adamant that everyone falls in either one group or the other with "science" to back it up.

>>8315838
>I'm not claiming a thing.
Wrong. You're saying HSTSs exist and by extension that the theory behind them is correct. That is a claim and a claim requires evidence. If you agree that there is no proof HSTSs exist and so you don't believe they do, okay. We agree.

>just asking for a source on your baseless claims.
It is not a "claim" to deny the existence of something until it has been shown to exist. If you say that there is a giant invisible purple elephant I'm not making a claim by saying that there isn't one until you prove that such an elephant exists. That such an elephant does not exist is the null hypothesis.

>>8315852
>It is not a "claim" to deny the existence of something until it has been shown to exist.
Interesting logic. There's nothing you can't claim this way.

>>8315872
Are you daft?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

>>8315902
Bad news for your one type of trans person hypothesis.

>2017
>people still fall for the HSTS meme
Postmodernism in action.

>>8316130
Haha, so you *are* daft.
We know for a fact that there are transsexuals.
We don't know for a fact how many "types" of transsexuals there are, or if there are different types at all. There could be one or there could be millions. Picking any number without evidence is unreasonable.
Since we can't reason about transsexuals being of different types, or what that would imply, it makes no sense to think of any individual as belonging to a "type" because that statement in itself lacks any actionable meaning.

>>8316168
>We know for a fact that there are transsexuals.
Circular logic, this is implicitly saying there is one type.

>>8316179
You're using terms you clearly don't understand. Even if there were multiple types of transsexuals they would still be transsexuals of different types. That is, no matter how many types there are, we know for a fact transsexuals exist. You're, presumably, not arguing that transsexuals don't exist at all, right?

>>8316195
Grouping them together as a single "transsexuals" type is inherently a one type of trans person hypothesis unless you are using "transsexuals" as an umbrella of multiple types, which you deny.

>>8297902

This is why LGBT people are often considered mentally ill, and now you're just alienating LGBT from other LGBT people will all these threads about fucking shitty and made-up acronyms.

>>8316228
Blanchard's *transsexual* typology itself is a typology of transsexuals - i.e. different types of the same thing. It, too, groups transsexuals. Indeed, any theory that says there are multiple types of a thing is implicitly stating all of those different types of that thing are that thing. Red dogs and blue dogs are both dogs. HSTSs and AGPs are both transsexuals.

Since there is no proof for any given number of types the reasoning I outlined here is the logical outcome.
>>8316168

It does not assume that the thing has only one type, but that since we don't know how many types there are or what being a certain type means it makes no sense to try and act as if there are N types.

>>8316294
>unless you are using "transsexuals" as an umbrella of multiple types, which you deny.

>>8297902
I keep seeing this PsCis shit pop up. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the general idea is that extremely gay individuals of both sexes are actually trans but don't transition due to a weird attraction to themselves. It seems to me like an attempt to lump in "extreme gay" individuals with transgendered people when in fact these are just individuals comfortable with their gender.

>>8316379
It's just meme psychology and postmodernist "science".

You should disregard these people entirely, or simply laugh at their idiotic beliefs.

>>8316384
Blanchardians BTFO!

>>8316384
Blanchardianism is as modernist as it gets. Postmodernism is the ideology that focuses on criticizing unified, encompassing systems like Blanchardianism.

>>8297902
>Pseudo-cissexuality is when one is sufficiently faggy to transition HSTS, but because of self-attraction one would rather stay cis.

So basically someone who's AGP but not trans? Or someone who's trans, but likes fapping to the reflection so much that it makes dysphoria worth it?

>>8316379
It started out as a joke about how stupid the whole AGP thing is.
Then the Blanchard fanboys took the joke and started treating it seriously.
Now we're here.

>>8316474
"Modernists" rely on evidence, not wild speculation.

>>8316491
There are two kinds of transness:
* AGP, the kind where you transition for sexual reasons
* HSTS, the kind where you transition because you can't figure out how to be your assigned gender, but can figure out how to be the opposite.

PsCis, or as we've started calling it, MetaCis, people are those who have the HSTS faggyness that leads them to be able to function better as the opposite gender of the assigned ones, but who are not interested in doing so for sexual reasons.

>>8316514
He'd been taking it seriously in private conversations before it was suggested, the difference is that now we have a name for the concept.

>>8316523
Modernists rely on theories of how the world works to build their knowledge further than what their observations allow.

>>8316384
>>8316514
Jesus fucking christ

>>8316571
>AGP, the kind where you transition for sexual reasons
No, the type where you develop dysphoria due to developing a cross-sex identity due to masturbating to your paraphilia too much. The dysphoria causes you to transition.

>HSTS, the kind where you transition because you can't figure out how to be your assigned gender, but can figure out how to be the opposite.
No, HSTSs transition because society rejects them as men because they're very girly. Society is supposedly more accepting of them as transwomen than as gay men so they make the rational choice to change their gender. Being a transwoman also makes it easier to tempt men, which is another motivator.

>Modernists rely on theories of how the world works to build their knowledge further than what their observations allow
Yes, but they don't treat their hypothesis as true before showing it to be true. Until they can show it to be true they treat it as an idea. A potentiality. A possibility.

>>8316591
>No, the type where you develop dysphoria due to developing a cross-sex identity due to masturbating to your paraphilia too much. The dysphoria causes you to transition.
Not possible, some have a desire to transition before they masturbate too much to their paraphilia.

>No, HSTSs transition because society rejects them as men because they're very girly. Society is supposedly more accepting of them as transwomen than as gay men so they make the rational choice to change their gender. Being a transwoman also makes it easier to tempt men, which is another motivator.
That's a more specific version of what I said.

>Yes, but they don't treat their hypothesis as true before showing it to be true. Until they can show it to be true they treat it as an idea. A potentiality. A possibility.
There's plenty of evidence in favor of Blanchardianism, and we're not treating the MetaCis thing as true yet, so we are following those rules.

>>8316603
>Not possible, some have a desire to transition before they masturbate too much to their paraphilia.
Perhaps masturbating is the wrong word - engaging. Unlike other orientations AGP is not innate. It is something you pick up, with a paraphilic origin. If it was an innate orientation it could not be "cured" and Blanchard wrote that it can be "cured" in children and teenagers.

>There's plenty of evidence in favor of Blanchardianism
There is nothing that shows causality between the factors, or that ELTEs exist. The evidence points to correlations and that's that.

>>8316621
>The evidence points to correlations and that's that.
Different anon, but to the extent Blanchard's typology works at all it's just that, correlations.

The problem is that it treats gender dysphoria as secondary rather than primary. My theory is that the brain structures that cause gender dysphoria are present at birth. It's not all or nothing, you can have a brain that expresses various degrees of dysphoria. Androphila vs gynephilia is a separate but probably not completely independent issue that the brain is primed for at birth. When puberty hits, sexual attraction/androphilia/gynephilia starts to kick in. Testosterone interacts with a dysphoric brain and with the androphilic/gynephilic tendencies. Depending on the degree of dysphoria and how androphilic or gynephilic the brain is, the dysphoria can express itself in different ways that may appear on the surface to fit the Blanchard typology loosely but the cause and effect is all messed up.

Based anecodotal evidence of people's experiences that I've read, AGP type behavior tends to diminish or go away completely after HRT, and sexual orientation moves in an androphilic direction. Early transitioners also should also have sharply diminished expression of AGP behavior if I'm right.

I've personally always been androphilic and was pegged as faggy/girly pretty early on, and trying to repress that (yes, I did repress for a few years) didn't change classmates' perceptions very much. I didn't choose to transition because I was rejected as a male, though. I was dypshoric from age 3 at the latest. I thought I should have been a girl long before I had any sexual attraction. Puberty just amplified the dysphoria to the breaking point. Blanchard's theory just does not fit my own experiences or those of many transwomen.

>>8316621
> Perhaps masturbating is the wrong word - engaging. Unlike other orientations AGP is not innate. It is something you pick up, with a paraphilic origin. If it was an innate orientation it could not be "cured" and Blanchard wrote that it can be "cured" in children and teenagers.
Whether it can be cured is noncentral to the typology.

> There is nothing that shows causality between the factors, or that ELTEs exist. The evidence points to correlations and that's that.
There's lots of things that indicate this. There's also things that indicate the opposite, and people are probably going to naturally disagree on which side is the most persuasive.

(However, you *gotta* admit that there are two types, regardless of the etiology.)

>>8316719
Your theory is not at all original.

How do you explain the other "dysphorias", e.g. body integrity identity disorder? Do you invent a separate story for each, rather than having an integrated theory that explains the whole lot?

> Based anecodotal evidence of people's experiences that I've read, AGP type behavior tends to diminish or go away completely after HRT,
My surveys suggest that this is just plain wrong. AGP often persists.

> and sexual orientation moves in an androphilic direction.
Meta-attraction!

> I've personally always been androphilic and was pegged as faggy/girly pretty early on, and trying to repress that (yes, I did repress for a few years) didn't change classmates' perceptions very much.
But AGPs can often repress in such a way that it changes their classmates' perceptions, hence why there's two different groups.

>>8316928
>Whether it can be cured is noncentral to the typology.
It means that it is not unlike other orientations; that it is developed. And it is developed, supposedly, as a result of engaging with the paraphilia.

>There's lots of things that indicate this. There's also things that indicate the opposite, and people are probably going to naturally disagree on which side is the most persuasive.
A radical theory requires a great deal of evidence proving it, not evidence that coincide with it. I could look at any two random statistical trends over time, concoct a theory that accounts for them and then claim that the theory is shown to be true by those trends.
You don't treat radical hypothetical ideas as if they were facts because you prefer them to the alternative..

>(However, you *gotta* admit that there are two types, regardless of the etiology.)
There is a correlation between AGP and gynephilia. Whether or not you think that makes transsexuals with AGP fetishes A WHOLE DIFFERENT TYPE of transsexual is a matter of semantics, with no implication as to their nature. You could also (accurately) divide humans that are taller than average from humans that are not and say there are two types of humans.

>How do you explain the other "dysphorias", e.g. body integrity identity disorder? Do you invent a separate story for each, rather than having an integrated theory that explains the whole lot?
Reality is not obliged to have a pleasant, simple explanation for complex phenomena.

>My surveys suggest that this is just plain wrong. AGP often persists.
Again with this! Why are you relying on internet surveys rather than what is commonly accepted to be true, even by Blanchard? He just justifies this via the "muh romantic self-pair bonding with the alter ego" line.

>But AGPs can often repress in such a way that it changes their classmates' perceptions, hence why there's two different groups.
Cis gay men and women are also more GNC than the straight variants.

>>8316621
>Unlike other orientations AGP is not innate. It is something you pick up, with a paraphilic origin.
That's not true though.

>>8317001
>It means that it is not unlike other orientations; that it is developed. And it is developed, supposedly, as a result of engaging with the paraphilia.
?

>A radical theory requires a great deal of evidence proving it, not evidence that coincide with it. I could look at any two random statistical trends over time, concoct a theory that accounts for them and then claim that the theory is shown to be true by those trends.
Radical theories are often conceptually simple, which means they require less evidence than more subtle theories.

>There is a correlation between AGP and gynephilia. Whether or not you think that makes transsexuals with AGP fetishes A WHOLE DIFFERENT TYPE of transsexual is a matter of semantics, with no implication as to their nature. You could also (accurately) divide humans that are taller than average from humans that are not and say there are two types of humans.
There are two types of humans, and height is related to this two-type typology. We can then do various pieces of research and determine that measured height is not a perfect indicator for which type you are.

>Reality is not obliged to have a pleasant, simple explanation for complex phenomena.
No, but we do have a simple explanation.

>Again with this! Why are you relying on internet surveys rather than what is commonly accepted to be true, even by Blanchard? He just justifies this via the "muh romantic self-pair bonding with the alter ego" line.
Because what is commonly accepted to be true is different from what is really true! I wouldn't be a Blanchardian if I just took what everyone says for granted.

>Cis gay men and women are also more GNC than the straight variants.
Yes, because cis gays are somewhere on the HSTS spectrum.

>>8317073
>?
You asked why this is relevant. I answered.

>Radical theories are often conceptually simple, which means they require less evidence than more subtle theories.
You still need to show something is true, not just that it might be true.

>There are two types of humans, and height is related to this two-type typology. We can then do various pieces of research and determine that measured height is not a perfect indicator for which type you are.
The label is completely artificial though.

>No, but we do have a simple explanation.
We have dozens upon dozens of simple explanations..

>Because what is commonly accepted to be true is different from what is really true!
And what is actually true can only be measured rigorously, not via web quizzes on biased populations. All of these different, smart people came to the conclusion that the data says post-transitioned AGPs lose the non-romantic sort of arousal more often than not. Even Trent agreed with this. Why do you think your quiz shows otherwise?

>I wouldn't be a Blanchardian if I just took what everyone says for granted.
How about taking what the man whose theory you follow said about his theory as true?

>Yes, because cis gays are somewhere on the HSTS spectrum
Ergo it follows that it would only be natural for androphilic FTMs and gynephilic MTFs to be more gender-conforming during their childhood..

>>8316928
What are the lot of things that indicate ETLEs?

>>8316928
Can you elaborate on AGP repression? What do they repress despite being male-minded compared to what female-minded HSTSs repress?

>>8316719
Agreed.

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>>8317155
>You asked why this is relevant. I answered.
I said that it was noncentral to the theory, in the sense that it is not an important part and could be replaced by something else without significantly changing the general understanding.

>You still need to show something is true, not just that it might be true.
Sure, but I don't need to show it to every person on the internet every time we're discussing the theory. Explaining the evidence is fun the first few times, but gets old by the 10th time.

>The label is completely artificial though.
Sure, my point just is that regardless of the explanation you use for two types, your explanation still *has* to say that there are two types. You can call the types what you want; for example, Anne Vitale called them "Group 1" and "Group 3" in her non-AGP-based typology.

>We have dozens upon dozens of simple explanations..
Of all simple explanations, Blanchardianism by far fits the best.

>And what is actually true can only be measured rigorously, not via web quizzes on biased populations. All of these different, smart people came to the conclusion that the data says post-transitioned AGPs lose the non-romantic sort of arousal more often than not. Even Trent agreed with this. Why do you think your quiz shows otherwise?
Trent actually didn't agree. See the attached picture for his comments.

What is true can be measured both rigorously and nonrigorously, but the rigorous measurements are obviously better. However, I don't have the resources to do rigorous measurements right now, so I'll have to do with nonrigorous ones.

>How about taking what the man whose theory you follow said about his theory as true?
Blanchardianism is an attempt to understand how transsexuality works, not a personality cult.

>Ergo it follows that it would only be natural for androphilic FTMs and gynephilic MTFs to be more gender-conforming during their childhood..
That's a hypothesis, but it doesn't fit well with other observations.

>>8318058
Where did Trent say that?

>>8317164
>What are the lot of things that indicate ETLEs?
There's a lot of things, and it really doesn't make sense without a big-picture view. I recommend spending some time reading things like Kay Browns blog. (She does have some bias against AGPs, unfortunately. Hopefully there will eventually be a blog that does not have this bias.)

Here's a link to get started: https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/faq-on-the-science/

>Can you elaborate on AGP repression? What do they repress despite being male-minded compared to what female-minded HSTSs repress?
AGPs repress a desire to be female or feminine, whereas HSTSs repress actual femininity. It is much harder to repress what you are and how you naturally act than to repress what you want to do.

>>8318100
https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/itt-9-gender-identity/#comment-25135

>>8318121
>There's a lot of things, and it really doesn't make sense without a big-picture view.
By a big-picture view you mean Blanchardianism generally? I do believe it and ETLEs and I have read her blog, but I'd like to know specific things about ETLEs revealing themselves to be ETLEs.

Someone here described her dysphoria as "like a crush" and ever since I've wanted to hear more examples like that. I think several posters have described being confused over whether the girl in their mind was an idealized girlfriend or an idealized self.

>She does have some bias against AGPs, unfortunately.
When she described her personal experiences, or more general things and if so, what?

>AGPs repress a desire to be female or feminine, whereas HSTSs repress actual femininity. It is much harder to repress what you are and how you naturally act than to repress what you want to do.
But what does that actually mean when it comes to behavior and interests? HSTSs want female friends, female play and female presentation, and if not repressed or isolated by their female peers, would fit in as girls. But young AGPs want what? To present female while continuing male play with male friends? To have female friends but to engage in male activities with them?

>>8318261
>By a big-picture view you mean Blanchardianism generally? I do believe it and ETLEs and I have read her blog, but I'd like to know specific things about ETLEs revealing themselves to be ETLEs.
It's harder to have ETLEs directly reveal themselves to be ETLEs than to have indirect evidence. You can observe lots of patterns where ETLEs pop up, but given that you already believe in ETLEs you're probably aware of those.

>Someone here described her dysphoria as "like a crush" and ever since I've wanted to hear more examples like that. I think several posters have described being confused over whether the girl in their mind was an idealized girlfriend or an idealized self.
Yeah, it's always fun when they get so overt about their AGP.

>When she described her personal experiences, or more general things and if so, what?
She has had personal negative experiences with AGPs, but those experiences also color the rest of her writing.

>But what does that actually mean when it comes to behavior and interests? HSTSs want female friends, female play and female presentation, and if not repressed or isolated by their female peers, would fit in as girls. But young AGPs want what? To present female while continuing male play with male friends? To have female friends but to engage in male activities with them?
To some degree, once you utter the words "want", you're already dangerously close to AGP territory. HSTSs play like girls and can best socialize with girls; AGPs *want* to play like girls and *want* to socialize with girls. (There's a bit of extra complexity here, because AGP is often later onset than HSTS, but the previous statements hold if you ignore that.)

>>8318341
>It's harder to have ETLEs directly reveal themselves to be ETLEs than to have indirect evidence.
Indirect evidence like the two examples I gave? That's the sort of thing I want more of.

>You can observe lots of patterns where ETLEs pop up
You mean different ETLEs coming together? Yeah, I'm aware.

>Yeah, it's always fun when they get so overt about their AGP.
It's more than just fun, it's really enlightening! Imagine being on the fence about ETLEs and then reading those two self-descriptions.

>but those experiences also color the rest of her writing.
How so?

>To some degree, once you utter the words "want", you're already dangerously close to AGP territory.
I think this gets exaggerated. It's a very rough rule. HSTSs do *want* some parts of femininity, like presentation which I mentioned, and potentially describe more of their femininity as wants, just as cis girls can.

For both it's a *need*. For HSTSs a practical need and for AGPs a mental fulfillment need like the needs of other orientations.

>AGPs *want* to play like girls and *want* to socialize with girls.
How universally true is wanting those for AGPs?

You said AGPs often repress in such a way that it changes their classmates perceptions of them. What is that kind of repression, since if it's noticeable then it's not just acting like their male peers?

>>8318445
>Indirect evidence like the two examples I gave? That's the sort of thing I want more of.
The examples you gave would be direct evidence. If you want more like that, there's plenty of examples in Anne Lawrence's book "Men Trapped in Men's Bodies".

However, I think its important to also examine the general patterns, rather than just rely on prefiltered anecdotes. The theory must fit the general observations among trans people. For this to work, you'll often have to rely on less direct evidence.

>How so?
Through a lot of her writing you can just feel how she dislikes AGPs.

>I think this gets exaggerated. It's a very rough rule. HSTSs do *want* some parts of femininity, like presentation which I mentioned, and potentially describe more of their femininity as wants, just as cis girls can.
>For both it's a *need*. For HSTSs a practical need and for AGPs a mental fulfillment need like the needs of other orientations.
So this is why I said "dangerously close to" rather than "into". There are elements of "want" in HSTS, but for AGPs it is exclusively a want.

>How universally true is wanting those for AGPs?
Probably depends on who you count as AGP. I'd bet that if you only count the people who've actually transitioned, you're going to get much higher rates of "wanting" than if you pick everyone who experiences AGP. I think it's more of a spectrum thing, where AGP can exist at different intensities.

>You said AGPs often repress in such a way that it changes their classmates perceptions of them. What is that kind of repression, since if it's noticeable then it's not just acting like their male peers?
By this I mean that AGPs often do not attempt to satisfy their wants, at least when young, so you've got the classical "I always wished I could play with the girls" story. What would've happened if they'd actually tried to play with the girls? I don't know, it'd probably vary between groups and ages.

>>8318564
>However, I think its important to also examine the general patterns, rather than just rely on prefiltered anecdotes. The theory must fit the general observations among trans people.
I already believe the theory and that it fits general patterns like AGPs having relationships with women pre-transition and pseudobisexuality. I'm interested in anecdotes for insight in how it shows in individual cases and how it can manifest differently. I think this is where discovering new things will happen.

>So this is why I said "dangerously close to" rather than "into". There are elements of "want" in HSTS, but for AGPs it is exclusively a want.
I do agree that it's a rule, just a rough one that's often exaggerated.

>I'd bet that if you only count the people who've actually transitioned, you're going to get much higher rates of "wanting" than if you pick everyone who experiences AGP.
I'd meant to change the topic from wants to *those* wants, playing like girls and socializing with girls. To put it another way, if AGPs could indulge their wants without shame or gendered stigma, what would young AGPs do rather than repress? Playing with the girls is one possibility but given that overall it won't be simply fitting in as girls like it would for HSTSs, how would their male mentality impact things? That's why I thought of the possibility of presenting female but socializing male.

I agree about it being a spectrum thing, or multiple for the different forms of AGP.

>>8318261
>But young AGPs want what? To present female while continuing male play with male friends? To have female friends but to engage in male activities with them?

Actually, early-transitioning AGPs are the ones with primarily-female peer groups, HSTSes often have primarily-male peer groups.

>>8318700
Since when?

>>8318709
Idk, that's just what I've observed. I have zero interest in socializing with men, at least not as close friends, whereas most of the HSTSes I know enjoy being "the girl" in a group of male peers.

>>8318717
What was your peer group as a child/teen? How do you know these HSTSs are HSTS?

>>8318729
As a child and early teen, primarily male with few females. As a teen in middle school and high school, primarily female. Now, almost no males at all. But I purposefully excised every "male" aspect of myself and my personality, to the point where I broke off friendships and stopped enjoying things that I used to like, so I might be an outlier. Trent calls me a "feminine outlier" and a "cisbian".

And I know they're HSTS because I know them personally and they're HSTS. I know the difference between an AGP and an HSTS in the wild lol

>>8318829
Commie-chan?

How do you know you are AGP besides being lesbian?

>And I know they're HSTS because I know them personally
I don't. How are they HSTS?

>>8318853
>How do you know you are AGP besides being lesbian?

Is there any other meaningful criteria? If I'm not androphilic, I'm not HSTS, so I have to be AGP.

>How are they HSTS?

Exclusively androphilic, certain things come more naturally to them (clothes, makeup, hair, etc), they have very few masculine interests, their presentation is hyperfeminine while seeming to have no sexual component, they're extremely extroverted, they don't get as upset about being seen "as trans", etc.

>>8318957
>Is there any other meaningful criteria?
Sexual fantasies of being a girl, arousal from dressing as a girl, typically male interests and habits.

>>8318980
I don't have the last two things, but the first thing, maybe. Does it count if you have fantasies about being a HOTTER girl? I get off to a lot of transformation stuff, so that probably counts.

>>8319040
>Does it count if you have fantasies about being a HOTTER girl?
If it is a sexual fantasy and being the hotter girl is arousing in itself, not incidental to the fantasy, yes.

Have you dressed as a girl from relatively early? That may lead to not finding it arousing.

Dressing as a girl in secret is another distinctly AGP thing, even without arousal.

>I get off to a lot of transformation stuff, so that probably counts.
Gender transformation? Very AGP.

Why did you excise male aspects of yourself and your personality? What were the aspects?

>>8318683
>I'd meant to change the topic from wants to *those* wants, playing like girls and socializing with girls. To put it another way, if AGPs could indulge their wants without shame or gendered stigma, what would young AGPs do rather than repress? Playing with the girls is one possibility but given that overall it won't be simply fitting in as girls like it would for HSTSs, how would their male mentality impact things? That's why I thought of the possibility of presenting female but socializing male.

AGPs know they aren't girls. I was accepted by girls, and enjoyed being with them, but still felt different. I got along better with boys because I was one. But most of my friends were femboys. I didn't like boys who played rough. The few friends I had who were more masculine boys were those who appreciated my gentle demeanor; we fed off each other.

I always knew I was a femboy. Not a girl, and not a normal boy.

>>8318058
>Sure, but I don't need to show it to every person on the internet every time we're discussing the theory. Explaining the evidence is fun the first few times, but gets old by the 10th time.
Or rather, being shown to be wrong in public gets old the 10th time. The point - the original point - is not that you are unable to prove this, but there is proof for causality period.

>Sure, my point just is that regardless of the explanation you use for two types, your explanation still *has* to say that there are two types. You can call the types what you want; for example, Anne Vitale called them "Group 1" and "Group 3" in her non-AGP-based typology.
I could also group people by AGP and non-AGP, in which case the AGP group would include a substantial number of androphiles. I could also group people by age of dysphoria onset. I could group people in countless ways, but that does make such groupings non-arbitrary or important. The supposed importance of the two type typology is in it being an etiological explanation.

>Of all simple explanations, Blanchardianism by far fits the best.
Fucking hell, I feel like I'm talking to a wall. It doesn't matter how well an explanation fits data if the data does not show that that explanation *must* be the right one. Otherwise you're gambling with the truth.

>Trent actually didn't agree. See the attached picture for his comments.
He keeps disappointing me in brand new ways. So much for respecting the experts, right? Blanchard and every single researcher friend of his do not support this view. Lawrence, too, ultimately wrote of the romantic bonding thing despite clearly not wanting to.

>What is true can be measured both rigorously and nonrigorously, but the rigorous measurements are obviously better. However, I don't have the resources to do rigorous measurements right now, so I'll have to do with nonrigorous ones.
If you can't rigorously prove there is a God deciding that you want to believe there is a God is not reasonable.

>>8318058
Ultimately you're wildly guessing and calling that science.

>Blanchardianism is an attempt to understand how transsexuality works, not a personality cult.
Believing experts who have studied the subject in far more depth than you ever have is not the behavior of a cultist.

>>8318341
>>8318445
>It's more than just fun, it's really enlightening! Imagine being on the fence about ETLEs and then reading those two self-descriptions.
But, of course, it is important to disregard every self-description of an AGP that does not fit ETLEs..

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>>8319075
Well what I meant was that I'm already a girl, so I can't really have a fantasy about "being a girl", but sometimes I fantasize about being a more attractive (and less skinny) version of myself, with a girlfriend who finds my body attractive. I have very long drawn-out fantasies about sweet things that my girlfriend does or says to me.

>Gender transformation?

All kinds.

>Why did you excise male aspects of yourself and your personality? What were the aspects?

So that I wouldn't be a man or be "like other trans women", which is kind of messed up but there it is. Basically just male friends, interest in video games and anime, introversion, social ineptitude, that kind of thing. I tore down all of it and now I'm basically a normie, which has its ups and downs.

I don't really understand the whole "ETLE" thing though, I feel like the type of woman I want to date is a lot different from the type of woman I want to be. And I feel like my attraction to women is very similar to the "meta-attraction" I feel for men (I'm attracted to the idea of being in a relationship with a butch lesbian and being "their girl"), so basically I'm just reproducing harmful heteronormative dynamics and applying them to a hypothetical lesbian relationship where she's the guy and I'm the girl. Not sure how an ETLE would fit into that, maybe I have an ETLE but I don't really apply it to my relationships.

>>8318829
>Trent
For fuck's sake. Please tell me you didn't fall prey to his bullshit.

>>8320162
I'm getting implants because of him.

>>8320179
??? what ???

>>8318683
>I'd meant to change the topic from wants to *those* wants, playing like girls and socializing with girls. To put it another way, if AGPs could indulge their wants without shame or gendered stigma, what would young AGPs do rather than repress? Playing with the girls is one possibility but given that overall it won't be simply fitting in as girls like it would for HSTSs, how would their male mentality impact things? That's why I thought of the possibility of presenting female but socializing male.
You'd need to find some AGP who'd played with girls to figure out how it'd impact things. The only example I know of that is a feminine outlier AGP.

>>8318700
Didn't we tell you that your "HSTS" friends are probably AGP?

>>8319040
You definitely have the first thing, going by the Discord chat.

>>8319881
>The supposed importance of the two type typology is in it being an etiological explanation.
Not *quite*. The value of Blanchardianism is that it is an etiological explanation for the extremely obvious fact that two different types of trans people exist. Even if you reject the etiological explanation, you should still accept the obvious fact.

>He keeps disappointing me in brand new ways. So much for respecting the experts, right? Blanchard and every single researcher friend of his do not support this view. Lawrence, too, ultimately wrote of the romantic bonding thing despite clearly not wanting to.
Wasn't Lawrence the one who *invented* the romantic bonding hypothesis? Anyway, wrt. Trent, I just realized I'd misread your comment about "Even Trent agreed with this", in that I'd missed the "more often than not" part, so I'd interpreted it as "essentially always". He does mention that it more often than not changes its presentation to romantic attraction in another part of the comment I sent, but in discussions with him he seems to have a more nuanced opinion.

Anyway, I just try to go by what I can observe, and since it seems like overt AGP often stays.

>If you can't rigorously prove there is a God deciding that you want to believe there is a God is not reasonable.

In our universe you can't even find non-rigorous evidence that there is a god. Believing in such a god would be far more reasonable if there was lots of non-rigorous things that indicated the existence.

>>8320416
>Not *quite*. The value of Blanchardianism is that it is an etiological explanation for the extremely obvious fact that two different types of trans people exist. Even if you reject the etiological explanation, you should still accept the obvious fact.
Fucking lol. If the fact was that obvious the vast majority of people - the vast majority of experts! - wouldn't reject it.

>>8320149
>I'm attracted to the idea of being in a relationship with a butch lesbian and being "their girl"
Sounds pseudobi.

>>8320416
>Didn't we tell you that your "HSTS" friends are probably AGP?

That goes against literally everything I have observed about them, you guys are just convinced that all HSTSes need to WANT to pass perfectly, when really they're the ones who are less likely to care. AGPs are the ones crippled by BDD and unable to go outside and socialize because they "might get clocked".

>>8325393
>That goes against literally everything I have observed about them,
Like what?

>when really they're the ones who are less likely to care.
No, they care so much they literally won't transition if they don't think they will.

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>>8325411
>No, they care so much they literally won't transition if they don't think they will.

Kitty? I said they're less likely to care, not that caring about passing is UNIQUE to AGPs, obviously not. But the desires of an AGP are very different from the desires of an HSTS: an AGP's transition is predicated on wanting to have a female body and wanting to be perceived as female by other people, because they "feel like women" or "feel that they ARE women", even if they're not the most feminine people, whereas HSTSes transition so that they can better express their natural femininity. So as long as an HSTS can express herself authentically (note that HSTSes have an authentic sense of self), and she is perceived as a "feminine person" or a "girl", regardless of whether she's perceived as trans or cis, she will most likely be satisfied. Whereas an AGP literally cannot exist without the validation of other people, her sense of self is predicated entirely on the perceptions of others. This is why some say that an AGP's gender identity is less "innate", but it's the opposite: an AGP's gender identity is the only thing innate about them, and they need everyone else's perceptions to align with that, or else they feel that they don't exist, or that they're a different person (dissociation). Unlike an HSTS, she has no innate sense of self or natural femininity (or even masculinity), her "gender" is the only thing she really feels.

To put it another way, HSTSes are actors in the world who socialize adeptly and influence the people around them, whereas AGPs are literal "actors" who need their role to be validated by the people observing them. HSTSes strive for authenticity, AGPs strive for fidelity.

HSTS is not real.
Stop believing in postmodernist lies.

>>8325485
This.