Independently of whether Blanchardianism is in fact true, there

>>8214864
>There are obvious political incentives to dismiss the explanatory value of autogynephilia
There are also obvious political incentives to prop it up, which is why it is so often propped up by TERFs and the like. On the other hand the general medical community has dumped it because our understanding of the issue has advanced.

>Mislead
That's rich.

>So when a mildly gender-dysphoric boy spends ten years assuming that his gender problems can't possibly be in the same spectrum as actual trans women, because the autogynephilia tag seems to fit him perfectly and everyone seems to think that the "Blanchard-Bailey-Lawrence theory of autogynephilia" is "discredited pseudoscience", she might feel a little bit betrayed when it turns out that it's not crazy nonsense and that the transgender community at large has been systematically lying to her, or is so systematically delusional that it might as well have been lying.
This is a lie since AGP has never been a thing in the public eye, only in specialist circles and the trans community. You could only learn of it by doing research. As such if that kid did the research required to even discover the term they have also done enough research to discover the position of the mainstream medical community: that whether one has the fetish or not does not impact whether they're trans or not, and that if they suspect they might be trans or just want to be a girl they should seek a therapist. Not like Blanchard would've let a kid under 18 transition anyhow.

Get fucked OP.

>>8214864

But the same people who claim Blanchard's typology is discredited are the same people who will tell you if you think you fall under AGP, you're just trans. So how are the future generations getting screwed over for political reasons?

>>8214864
>quoting saotome-westlake but switching the male pronouns used for third person self-reference to female
really makes you think

>>8214948
Not all of them.

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26KB, 751x275px

>>8214960
you switched the pronouns to refer to the subject in adulthood, and also changed some of the wording to fit in with /tttt/
also i'm laughing at the fact that >>8214930 and >>8214937 both assume this is something nobody could possibly have when it is the writer's lived experience

>>8215031
I never once denied someone could have this fetish??

>>8215031
They didn't suggest that, or at least not the first poster, they seem to suggest that AGP exists in some form:

>they have also done enough research to discover the position of the mainstream medical community: that whether one has the fetish or not does not impact whether they're trans or not, and that if they suspect they might be trans or just want to be a girl they should seek a therapist.

>>8215055
>>8215056
i wasn't saying that anon was denying people could be agp, i was saying they were denying that someone's introduction to agp could be through blanchard's typology itself, and their repression could be because people said the typology was bullshit
but that's exactly what happened to saotome-westlake:
http://unremediatedgender.space/2017/Feb/a-beacon-through-the-darkness-or-getting-it-right-the-first-time/

>>8215031
Not only his.

>>8214864
You aren't talking about mildly gender dysphoric boys. If you go without puberty feeling no BDD, then you aren't trans.

You're talking about old hons like that guy with a blog who never should transition who go and blame actual mtfs.

I agree the typology has a lot of validity but your approach is to legitimize bad people and let them beat up on others just because some fetishist who felt no dusphoria legitimately wasn't trans and now wants to blame his hon status on others, not his pleasure over being loaded with t and bloating up into a huge man.

>>8214864
I mean I'd you didn't feel dysphoria or Bdd or anything like that and lived happily and did nothing then you have nobody to blame but yourself

He's that blogger who should just take responsibility for his actions isn't he?

>>8215714
>>8215735
How is he to blame?

>>8215798
If that person didn't feel any Dysphoria then why would they have ever transitioned? They never would have asked for that and a fetish certainly doesn't guarantee they are trans.

And I'm not saying the theory is wrong in the lose sense, but Blanchard is now blogging about conspiracy theories over blockers so if we give it his way.

I'm peobably being psychotic again so I need to tone it down, but this makes no sense.

>>8214864
The only way anyone would ever be able to never get hurt was if you liberalized blockers like the fda did with contraceptives and let minors take them upon request.

>>8215714
The server won't let me delete this but I want to

>>8214864
Are Yoko Ono and Trump the same person?

>>8215904
Why?

>>8214930
>because our understanding of the issue has advanced

>>8215031
>also i'm laughing at the fact that >>8214930 and >>8214937 both assume this is something nobody could possibly have when it is the writer's lived experience
"systematically delusional"

>>8215074

What? That read to me more like the author repressed because he didn't want to believe AGP was connected to being a tranny. So he would have repressed even if everyone he had met had told him Blanchard was entirely correct and he would want to transition in the future. He would continue believing it was just his fetish. He said he deluded himself into believing there are no psychological gender differences, of course he would delude himself into thinking the typology was bullshit on his own. From his diary entries, he was in repression since before he came across AGP, he was not in any mental state to accept tranny self-knowledge regardless of how easily it could have been for him to gain. These are just the rants of a depressed person who incorrectly thinks this particular change he's suggesting would have saved him and others like him.

>>8219080
>because he didn't want to believe AGP was connected to being a tranny
He was told that it wasn't connected.

You can't excuse telling people lies with 'they wanted to believe it'.

>>8219086
He didn't have Dysphoria so he didn't transition. It's his fault. He's going straight into selfish man mentality in claiming his mistakes are never his fault.

>>8214864
you are an idiot op. being AGP does not mean you should go trans because TRANS CAN LOSE OUT ON SEXUAL FEELING. transitioning to fulfill a fetish when transitioning can cut out your ability to even orgasm at all if something goes wrong is not a good plan.

blanchardism needs to die and be forfucking gotten, it's not just discredited, it's fucking irrelevant, being trans isn't about wanting to be the girl in bed, it's about wanting to be the girl when you are mowing the lawn, buying an apple. It's about being comfortabe in your own skin and reducing symptoms of dysphoria.

>>8219126
>It's his fault.
He didn't transition because people like you lied to him.

>>8219086

>he was told AGP isn't connected to being trans and that's why he didn't transition
>he writes that he's sure transition is about sex because he doesn't believe the gender identity explanation commonly espoused
>also writes his AGP will remain just a fantasy because transition is expensive, slow, painful, and ineffective

He didn't transition because he was repressed, not because anyone lied to him. Instead of railing against people who discredit or slander Blanchard and his typology, he should be fighting against the influences that would cause an AGP to repress in the first place because it clearly wasn't Blanchard's topology's rocky standing that held him back. He wasn't convinced by anyone that AGP isn't connected to being trans and I'm not convinced he knows himself now or knew himself then. Unless you have something else to show me.

>>8217903
>Denial of the typology is the result of a vast conspiracy by every major professional organization in the West.

>>8219300
>the influences that would cause an AGP to repress in the first place
Namely?

>>8219313
How about the claim that people with AGP are just mentally ill men who fell in love with their inner woman and want to be transition to live out their sexual fantasies with her? :^)

Or just all of the regular anti-trans repression factors plus the shame over being aroused by shit like this.

>>8219313

AGP seem to be discouraged more easily than HSTS from being who they want to be. So one might say treating them with kid's gloves, or simply more justly, would improve their chances. Things that could hold back an AGP might include this list. Holding back a child from whatever game or toy they would like to play based on their gender or shaming them for it. Being separated or rejected by their female peer group at the age children segregate themselves based on gender. Jokes about how disgusting trannies and feminine males are in media and among peers and authority figures. A lack of admirable, passable, trans women in the public eye. Authority figures setting up male gender role expectations for them from childhood and reminding them they're male. Views that are religious or secular that condemn LGBT. Penalties for behaving or moving in a feminine manner. Puritanical views on sex. Essentially, teaching that an AGP is on one side of the gender divide and that this wall is unassailable. You can see from the author's journal that this idea had been ingrained in the author.

But then the author claims he was raised in a more egalitarian environment, so perhaps what I have included here would be wrong and we would need to dig into his early childhood.

>>8219457
Easily discouraged is an understatement, I had a strong desire to crossdress and be feminine for much of my life yet was terrified to do so. I'm getting less scared as I age but I'm still in my man shell. It's cozy in here and i'm scared to come out. :)

>>8219457
That list seems more things that would harm an HSTS than an AGP.

>You can see from the author's journal that this idea had been ingrained in the author.
Where do you see that view?

>>8220800
>That list seems more things that would harm an HSTS than an AGP.
Why? In actuality they're equally applicable.

>>8220811
HSTS are more GNC.

Not that it wouldn't be good for AGPs or everybody else too.

>>8220839
>HSTS are more GNC.
Well, kind of. Most AGPs are gynephilic but around a fourth are androphilic. But yeah, androphiles are more GNC because they're naturally more feminine in the same way that straight girls are naturally more feminine than gay girls.

I think of AGP as an outlet for repression. An excuse to think of yourself as a woman without admitting to wanting to be a woman or being trans for real. "It's just a fetish so its fine I'm not *really* anything but a straight dude". Desire made forbidden and exotic and thus twisted. Since gynephiles are already attracted to the female body it is much easier for them to develop it.

>>8220887
Androphila AGPs are more GNC as well as HSTSes are?

>An excuse to think of yourself as a woman without admitting to wanting to be a woman or being trans for real. "It's just a fetish so its fine I'm not *really* anything but a straight dude".
But some AGPs never thought they were straight dudes in the first place?

>Since gynephiles are already attracted to the female body it is much easier for them to develop it.
How can an androphile develop it at all without being at least a little bi?

>>8220951
>Androphila AGPs are more GNC as well as HSTSes are?
That would make sense since people who are attracted to their natal sex have brains that are in some aspects shifted toward those of the other sex, cis or not. e.g. cis gay guys have more feminine brains.

>But some AGPs never thought they were straight dudes in the first place?
Personally I don't know of any such AGPs but I believe you. Maybe the subconscious stress of wanting to conform affected them similarly? That is, it was still psychologically difficult for them to freely express their desires directly so they had to do so in a twisted, roundabout way?

>How can an androphile develop it at all without being at least a little bi?
In the same way a straight masochist can be turned on by the idea of being hurt by a BDSM machine. They find the situation arousing even if they're not attracted to anyone in the situation (themselves or the machine).

>>8221038
>people who are attracted to their natal sex have brains that are in some aspects shifted toward those of the other sex, cis or not.
AFAIK that isn't confirmed for AGP MtFs.

>Maybe the subconscious stress of wanting to conform affected them similarly? That is, it was still psychologically difficult for them to freely express their desires directly so they had to do so in a twisted, roundabout way?
But how do you know there was subconscious pressure to conform?

>even if they're not attracted to anyone in the situation (themselves or the machine
I thought a key part of AGP was that they were attracted to themselves?

Does the masochist getting turned on by the idea of a machine happen?

>>8221334
>AFAIK that isn't confirmed for AGP MtFs.
I don't think it is, but I see no reason why they'd be different to everyone else. After all this is true even for gay cis individuals.

>But how do you know there was subconscious pressure to conform?
I can't think of a culture that is so accepting that there wouldn't be such pressure, at least to a degree, but ultimately I'm speculating.

>I thought a key part of AGP was that they were attracted to themselves?
>Does the masochist getting turned on by the idea of a machine happen?
As I understand it it is possible to be aroused by a scenario in itself rather than by any individual participant in that scenario. The masochist is aroused by being in that situation rather than being aroused by themselves. AGP arousal can be similar. Arousal at *being* a woman rather than attraction *to* that woman if that makes sense?

>>8221955
>but I see no reason why they'd be different to everyone else.
If it hasn't been tested for meta-attraction then there's no-one else to be different from. There is no telling that meta-attraction androphilia works the same way as other androphilia.

>I can't think of a culture that is so accepting that there wouldn't be such pressure, at least to a degree, but ultimately I'm speculating.
It's down to individual childhoods but if your speculation is right then AGPs should tend to be from backgrounds with more pressure to conform.

>Arousal at *being* a woman rather than attraction *to* that woman if that makes sense?
I think the two are the same for AGPs. I don't know if your masochist example is real but if it is, I don't think it's necessarily the same as AGPs. How would you tell whether AGP arousal involved attraction to the woman as well as arousal at being her?

>>8223668
>If it hasn't been tested for meta-attraction then there's no-one else to be different from. There is no telling that meta-attraction androphilia works the same way as other androphilia.
See, meta-attraction is a real thing, as self-reported by various people, but the idea that people with AGP *must* be solely meta-attracted to men if they're androphilic is itself untested and unproven. I don't think it is something we should assume here.

>It's down to individual childhoods but if your speculation is right then AGPs should tend to be from backgrounds with more pressure to conform.
Right.
Interesting fact - the more individualistic a culture is the more transitioners in that culture are AGP. There are a number of ways to interpret this. The first is that pressure isn't actually a factor and something else is going on. The second is that AGPs from overly hostile cultures are more likely to repress entirely. I find the latter more persuasive. The point is that just looking at the number of people with AGP in each culture can't by itself solve this question.

That study on NYC's trans community showed that whites transitioners are over 3 times more likely to be AGP than black transitioners, so again we can reasonably estimate cultural factors are at work, but figuring out what they are is similarly difficult. It could be that more black AGPs repress, or it could be that for some odd reason "white culture" causes more people to be AGP. I suspect the former.

AGP transitioners tend to have mildly higher IQ scores than the general population but this might be self-selection at play, with the less able never learning enough to justify making the leap.

>I don't know if your masochist example is real
I'll bring up a definitely real, well-documented one then: bondage. There are people who are aroused by the idea of being tied up. They are not attracted to themselves or the ropes that bind them though, but to the scenario.

Out of space. 1/2

>>8223668
>>8225918
This is not to say that they can't be attracted to the idea of someone tying them up, but that a great deal of fantasies start with a scenario where they are already tied up with no hint as to how they got into that situation. The focal point of the scenario isn't their own body (they're straight) and it isn't the rope. It's the configuration of everything. Arousal at *being*.

>I think the two are the same for AGPs.
>How would you tell whether AGP arousal involved attraction to the woman as well as arousal at being her?
The first "proof" I'll offer is incredibly circular, to the point where it is unlikely to convince you, but it is how I think things work: androphiles can still be AGP despite not being attracted to women, which includes the woman they become. They can, however, be aroused by *being* one. Since gynephilic AGPs are attracted to women they could plausibly be attracted to both being a woman and to the woman they become as an object of desire unto herself.

A few more ideas:
A gynephilic AGP can look at a photo of a woman and not be aroused by her, but become aroused once they imagine being her. Why can't this be true for an androphile?
AGPs are often gynoandromorphiles, yet AGP fantasies typically center on becoming beautiful passing women. If attraction was to themselves rather than to the situation why aren't more fantasies centered on being semi-passable attractive gynandromorphs?
It is very common for a fetish to only arouse someone if they are the subject. A masochist is not automatically a sadist, nor are they aroused by themselves, nor do they require a tormentor. Why can't an AGP similarly be excited by being the subject of a situation without simultaneously being the object of their own lust?

2/2

>>8225918
>The point is that just looking at the number of people with AGP in each culture can't by itself solve this question.
We should look at the number of people with AGP, whether they transition or not, and then the proportion who do transition.

>but this might be self-selection at play, with the less able never learning enough to justify making the leap.
What do you mean not learning enough to justify transition?

>>8226001
The comparison to bondage is interesting. If that's right then is AGP at its heart about being with the attraction a secondary thing for gynephile AGPs, or is its origin something else and both being and attraction to are secondary, or are being and attraction to two different causes of AGP?

>A gynephilic AGP can look at a photo of a woman and not be aroused by her, but become aroused once they imagine being her. Why can't this be true for an androphile?
She might not be aroused by the photo, but she is attracted to it. Just as a het male might not be aroused by the photo but is when he imagines having sex with her.

>AGPs are often gynoandromorphiles, yet AGP fantasies typically center on becoming beautiful passing women. If attraction was to themselves rather than to the situation why aren't more fantasies centered on being semi-passable attractive gynandromorphs?
The GMP connection to AGP is real mystery. I can't think of any explanation for it under any theory of AGP besides claiming AGPs really want to be GAMs, not beautiful passing women, or the reverse, AGPs aren't truly GMP and just like GAMs because they are formerly male. What do you think is behind AGP GMP?

>Why can't an AGP similarly be excited by being the subject of a situation without simultaneously being the object of their own lust?
If she can that makes AGP akin to a fetish like bondage rather than an orientation. I'm not sure what the implications of either is.

>>8230592
>We should look at the number of people with AGP, whether they transition or not, and then the proportion who do transition.
Since I believe AGP is a fetish I think you can develop it for multiple reasons, which means we'd catch a fair number of cis individuals in the crossfire. Looking at the numbers would definitely be interesting though.
I think we'd have to find a way to figure out how many repressing transsexuals, AGP or not, there are in a given region, contrast these numbers with the number of AGP and non-AGP transitioners in that region, and then compare the numbers across regions and cultures. How do you collect data about people who actively try to hide their nature though?

>What do you mean not learning enough to justify transition?
Not learning that being AGP does not mean that you can't be trans.

>The comparison to bondage is interesting. If that's right then is AGP at its heart about being with the attraction a secondary thing for gynephile AGPs, or is its origin something else and both being and attraction to are secondary, or are being and attraction to two different causes of AGP?
These are good questions to which I don't have good answers. I suspect that being is central because of the whole androphile AGP thing (+GAMP) but that argument is somewhat circular. This view has anecdotal support but anecdotes are not exactly hard evidence.

>She might not be aroused by the photo, but she is attracted to it. Just as a het male might not be aroused by the photo but is when he imagines having sex with her.
Fair enough. Basically I think there's often a discrepancy between what one is attracted to and what one wishes to be, even if one is attracted to the sex they identify as.

>What do you think is behind AGP GMP?
I honestly don't have the faintest clue.

ITT: /tttt/ has never read Serano.

>>8232390
I have Whipping Girl on the bookshelf next to me. Cite any passage relevant to this thread.

>>8230592
>If she can that makes AGP akin to a fetish like bondage rather than an orientation. I'm not sure what the implications of either is.
I think a major practical implication is that cis men can be intensely AGP and thus accidentally mistake themselves for transsexuals. Nevertheless transitioning is a poor solution for them. By recognizing that AGP is not an immutable orientation but a fetish therapists can better treat these men. Another is that this would support WPATH's current treatment model which does not differentiate between MTFs based on orientation.

Honesty, however, requires that I also say that I would personally find this vindicating as I don't feel my emotions stem from this frankly awful fetish I wish I didn't have. This calls my objectivity into question but I think that the points I presented still hold merit.

>>8232390
If you can contribute to the discussion please do so.

>>8232390
i have, her criticisms of blanchard's work don't stand up and in many cases are directly refuted by the texts she claims to have disproven (e.g. she collected stories of androphilic trans women in which they reported agp in an attempt at disproving that hstses don't, not realizing that soi-disant androphilia in agps is mainstream blanchardianism)

>>8232405
>Nevertheless transitioning is a poor solution for them.
Source?

>By recognizing that AGP is not an immutable orientation but a fetish therapists can better treat these men.
When has AGP even proved mutable?

Obviously discounting transwomen who lose their apparent AGP with transition.

>>8232421
>not realizing that blanchard calls anyone who reports data which disagrees with his theory a liar
ftfy
There's seriously no basis for declaring that all "AGP" attraction to men is meta attraction.

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>>8232428
social desirability bias and lying are entirely different situations
'blanchard accuses his opponents of lying' is one of the nastier things spread by opponents of the typology; on a spectrum of zero to 'that time andrea james called bailey's prepubertal daughter a cocksucking whore', it's pretty far down
there is no part of blanchardianism that requires one to think unclear narratives are intentional untruths, outside of situations where any reasonable person presented with the evidence would do so (e.g. if a claimed narrative is directly stolen from someone else)
you're the other anon in this discussion, right? i've been following it, it's pretty interesting
>>8232424
>Obviously discounting transwomen who lose their apparent AGP with transition
the evidence suggests that's a meme, though the word 'apparent' implies you know that

>>8232424
>Source?
I have none. I don't think this has been studied. If gender dysphoria is a mismatch between the body and the mind then it follows that cis men who transition wouldn't do well. I think a fair number of detransitioners are such men.

>When has AGP even proved mutable?
I ran into a few guys on 4chan who told me they ceased to be AGP. Not IRONCLAD EVIDENCE, I realize, but it's something. This is not to say that every cis man with AGP can stop being AGP, mind. Many fetishes are persistent and stick around for life. Just that they will probably do better by living as men and indulging their fetish when need be.

>>8232436
>the evidence suggests that's a meme
What was the average age of those 'AGPs'? Because if it's primarily older transitioners I wouldn't be a tiny bit surprised given their behavior. It'd be much more interesting if it studied younger people.

>>8232436
>social desirability bias and lying are entirely different situations
Believing that *every such report* can be attributed to people warping the facts due to social desirability, instead of considering the possibility that at least *some* reports are accurate, is not a reasonable thing to do. That's coercing the information on hand to fit your theory. Me claiming that meta-attraction does not exist and that those who say they experience it are just shifting the facts due to internalized transmisogyny would be every bit as ludicrous.

>you're the other anon in this discussion, right? i've been following it, it's pretty interesting
Yes and also your long-term "muh Nuttbrock" frenemy hi Trent how are you

>Graph
Where's it from?

>>8232436
>the evidence suggests that's a meme, though the word 'apparent' implies you know that
"Apparent" because the underlying AGP orientation is different from overtly AGP sexual fantasies.

What evidence?

Your chart doesn't cover this as it doesn't ask about former vs current AGP fantasies.

>>8232439
>I have none. I don't think this has been studied.
So when you state "transitioning is a poor solution"...?

>I ran into a few guys on 4chan who told me they ceased to be AGP.
In what context did they lose it?

>>8232466
>So when you state "transitioning is a poor solution"...?
I told you my reasoning but granted, maybe it would work out for them for some reason??

>In what context did they lose it?
Most of the stories were along the lines of "I just kind of grew out of it I don't know". I don't know how intense their AGP cases were.

>>8232450
rv-chan?
nope, this was in a pretty young population
i think the average age of tail's samples are early twenties
>>8232452
>Believing that *every such report* can be attributed to people warping the facts due to social desirability, instead of considering the possibility that at least *some* reports are accurate, is not a reasonable thing to do
i should note here that i am not of the 'everyone is a pseudobi' school of thought, at least not strongly
i think the potential for 'trubi' in agp exists, given as it certainly exists in aap, and this may present as similar to exclusive heterosexuality (in transitioned sex)
however, most apparent cases of this have turned out to not be
>Yes and also your long-term "muh Nuttbrock" frenemy hi Trent how are you
p good, you?
interesting to see you play your hand so openly in >>8232405
>Where's it from?
the anon who made it is increasingly board-recognizable and i'm not sure if i'm allowed to name their more serious projects on /tttt/
>>8232466
>What evidence?
aside from the chart, anne lawrence has done more extensive research on the topic that found statistically similar rates of agp fantasy pre- and post-op (which is a rather later transition stage than hrt, implying the majority continue them on hrt)

>>8232488
>rv-chan?
No, do you assume every person with distaste for hons is her?
>the anon who made it
So it's junk?

>>8232488
>i think the potential for 'trubi' in agp exists, given as it certainly exists in aap, and this may present as similar to exclusive heterosexuality (in transitioned sex)
Go on?

>>8232504
>No, do you assume every person with distaste for hons is her?
no, i assume people who consider late transitioners and yungagps to be extremely different fundamentally (as opposed to just somewhat different inasmuch as they have different backstories and may be in different clusters) to be rv-chan
i have off-board contact with her, and it's a topic on which we've talked a lot
>So it's junk?
people can research topics seriously and *also* use 4chan
>>8232506
idk if there's anything to go on about
if you're attracted to women, it is possible to be attracted to yourself-as-a-woman, and it is possible to be attracted to both men and women

>>8232517
Not to go full Blanchard but how do you know trubi is possible among non-HSTS natal males?

>>8232488
>i should note here that i am not of the 'everyone is a pseudobi' school of thought, at least not strongly
Okay, like, do you understand why I might believe what I believe without attributing it to me believing it because I prefer the implications? People changing the facts due to social desirability is obviously a thing but I think using that as a blanket excuse to dismiss the idea of truly androphilic AGPs is silly.

>p good, you?
I'm on legbutt, which I'm only on when I'm feeling Sad About Gender and a little while after. This is the after so I'm probably going away for a few months again until the next wave hits haha.

>interesting to see you play your hand so openly in
How so?

>the anon who made it is increasingly board-recognizable and i'm not sure if i'm allowed to name their more serious projects on /tttt/
Okay, that was what I guessed. The anon who thinks internet surveys are "research". brb quizzing Susan's.

>>8232517
It doesn't even seem to be a rare sentiment here.
But even if they were fundamentally same, AGP could persist only in their case because they are fully grown masculine men who can't hope to even resemble women. That and them having that fetish much longer.
>people can research topics seriously and *also* use 4chan
If somebody has enough time to be recognizable poster, I very much doubt they'd be an actual researcher.

>>8232538
while bailey's research didn't find any bisexual men, research using a more stringent definition of bisexuality (iirc, two or more sexual acts each with men and women) does, implying that it at least exists even if it is far rarer than self-identity
>Okay, like, do you understand why I might believe what I believe without attributing it to me believing it because I prefer the implications? People changing the facts due to social desirability is obviously a thing but I think using that as a blanket excuse to dismiss the idea of truly androphilic AGPs is silly.
i think you're separating belief and personal gain to a far greater degree than they're separable in people who are at least kind of neurotypical (they're separated in me because i'm too autistic to understand why they'd go together, even then i fall for it sometimes). you like the idea of truhet agps, and you find it extremely important that agp is considered a mutable fetish that's at most adjacent to the whole trans thing rather than an innate sexual orientation; those feed into each other, and you can't realistically pretend they don't.
(this is also the answer to 'how so?')

>>8232569
gdi, i forgot to quote >>8232548
anyway
>>8232554
>fully grown masculine men who can't hope to even resemble women
...you can *really* see how that's an rvchan-esque sentiment, right?
she's just part of this board's 20/80 core of posters, hence it seeming common

>>8232575
>...you can *really* see how that's an rvchan-esque sentiment, right?
I can't help but somehow agree with her. But do you really not see the general anti-hon sentiment on this board?

>>8232569
>a more stringent definition of bisexuality (iirc, two or more sexual acts each with men and women)
Sex acts are nothing to do with actual attraction. I mean, the context is pseudobisexuality...

>>8232554
>But even if they were fundamentally same, AGP could persist only in their case because they are fully grown masculine men who can't hope to even resemble women. That and them having that fetish much longer.
That's actually a point I never thought of.
WARNING!! A HUGE BATTLE SHIP SPECULATION IS APPROACHING FAST NOTHING BELOW THIS POINT IS LIKELY TO BE FACTUAL

So there's this idea that the reason AGP is quenched by transitioning is that being a woman is normalized and thus no longer exotic and taboo. What if being completely unable to pass prevents you from normalizing it and bridging the gap between the fantasy of having a woman's body and the decidedly unfeminine body you have? It also stands to reason that the longer you have a fetish the more entrenched it is in your psyche. This doesn't make these people any less trans, mind.

>>8214864
Hetero women are sexually aroused by their own femininity, although they may not be aware of it, like fish unaware of water. But women's attraction to men is only to serve their desire of feminine sexuality because men are the key to that. So logically MtF trans would be AGP.

>>8232582
>>8232589
of course there's a big anti-hon sentiment on this board, but the specific terms used and style of discussion were reminiscent of her
but, again, the sample here were *not* late transitioners -- they were a very similar demographic to /tttt/ age-wise
>>8232584
yes, and as it happens even those samples find non-bisexual men identifying as bisexual
but bailey's 'anyone who identifies as bi' samples found about a 0% rate, whereas ones that require bisexual actions find most are bi

>>8232603
I don't care about anyone's identities or Bailey's samples. I just want to know if non-HSTS natal males experience "tru" (not pseudo) attraction to both sexes.

>>8232603
>but the specific terms used and style of discussion were reminiscent of her
I'm honored.
>but, again, the sample here were *not* late transitioners
But given that the sample was gathered by an anon and you don't want to provide source, it's for all intents and purposes worthless.

>>8232592
>Hetero women are sexually aroused by their own femininity,
>>8224886

>>8232607
then yes, that's what the most stringent research shows -- that there are some, albeit few, trubi cis men

>>8232615
How does the research show that, considering counting sex acts doesn't rule out pseudobisexuality or any of the many oher reasons someone might be seen as bi when they aren't properly?

>>8232569
>i think you're separating belief and personal gain to a far greater degree than they're separable in people who are at least kind of neurotypical
Sorry if I'm being dumb but are you saying that I am separating them more than neurotypicals and implying I'm not neurotypical or that I can't separate them because I'm at least somewhat neurotypical?

>you like the idea of truhet agps, and you find it extremely important that agp is considered a mutable fetish that's at most adjacent to the whole trans thing rather than an innate sexual orientation; those feed into each other, and you can't realistically pretend they don't.
I do think that those biases ultimately affect me, but there is a big difference between being affected by a bias and letting a bias cause you to accept untrue arguments. For example an engineer might strongly prefer one solution to a problem over another and argue for that solution using facts (or what they see as facts). Can that engineer be mislead by their biases into ultimately ignoring a better solution? Yes. Can that engineer's argument as to why their solution is the best be right? Yes.

What I was asking is this: can you understand why I, as a rational person, could believe what I believe even if I weren't biased to a degree?

>(this is also the answer to 'how so?')
I don't see admitting to a bias as an admission of guilt. It is almost impossible to not be biased one way or another when it comes to most discussions that pertain to you in some way. I don't think you're actually free of biases either but whether they're greater or lesser than mine isn't clear.

Owning up to your biases is helpful and important because you can then confront them directly.

>>8221038
I'm an AGP and i call bullshit, i have very little need to conform in general and i like to crossdress, dream of being a women etc. Everyone i know knows about it. Yet i'm not planning on transitioning. It feels unnecessary to do so just for the sake of what i'd like to call a fetish. Granted, if transitioning was easier, cheaper and foolproof i would likely consider it. If that makes you right i do not know. But my desire is clearly very sexual when compared to other trans people.

>>8232955
The claim will be that you aren't really trans, have a different kind of AGP from the AGP trans people have, and any dysphoria you feel is fake dysphoria.

>>8232955
>>8232976
And that if future transitioning meets your standards then you shouldn't do it because you'd feel dysphoria over not being male any more.

>>8232984
The claim by who?

Not sure i would, i look pretty androgynous by default. Never really had a concept for masculinity

>>8232630
penile plethysmography
>>8232643
>Sorry if I'm being dumb but are you saying that I am separating them more than neurotypicals and implying I'm not neurotypical or that I can't separate them because I'm at least somewhat neurotypical?
the latter
the only people who don't seem to have intertwined beliefs-and-convenience are those who are extremely non-normie, like obviously fucked up non-normie
>What I was asking is this: can you understand why I, as a rational person, could believe what I believe even if I weren't biased to a degree?
well, you're asking someone who falls into 'obviously fucked up non-normie' re. theory of mind...
i can understand why somebody would conclude that chalking things up to social desirability bias is a poor measure of assessing evidence, but the way you apply it is coloured by the fact that, specifically, the existence of truhet agps would be far more advantageous to you than any other variant would
>>8233059
the claim of people who believe 'cis' agp and 'trans' agp are fundamentally different, which is why they don't really check out
it's the whole 'innate gender identity' meme

>>8233110
>penile plethysmography
Except that presumably wouldn't distinguish between attraction and meta-attraction...

>>8233147
i'm talking about cis men, anon
agps would logically have the same sexuality range as normophilic men in this aspect

>>8233214
Research that doesn't consider the possibility of pseudobisexuality can't be used to say anything about "tru" bisexuality.

>>8232955
Do you experience dysphoria? If so, would you mind describing it?

>>8233110
I don't want to offend you but I don't think people like you are immune to being biased. For example you have a preference for the other outcome based on the idea that separating A*Ps from HSTSs during treatment would help prevent abuse.

>i can understand why somebody would conclude that chalking things up to social desirability bias is a poor measure of assessing evidence, but the way you apply it is coloured by the fact that, specifically, the existence of truhet agps would be far more advantageous to you than any other variant would
I agree. That's a reasonable thing to say. I don't think that this, by itself, invalidates the points I make though, or that I don't make an effort to be objective.

>the claim of people who believe 'cis' agp and 'trans' agp are fundamentally different, which is why they don't really check out
Just a note here: that does not mean that their AGP-as-in-the-fetish itself is fundamentally different.

>>8232384
>This view has anecdotal support but anecdotes are not exactly hard evidence.
What are the anecdotes?

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>>8214864

>>8225918
It's interesting you bring up bondage, since it's my first and biggest fetish. If my memory serves me right it even predates AGP, however with time they sort of merged together, to the point where most of my fantasies would involve me being a tied up woman.

Anyway, transition made my AGP go away, but did nothing to arousal over the thought of getting bound. So after masturbating today to bondage porn and considering that arousal in context of autogynephylia, I realized that both of those fetishes feel essentialy the same at the core.

But here's the thing: I've only played with some light solo bondage - and found it neat though a bit dull - since I'm not a kind of person who'd be okay with exploring any fetish with some stranger. And I'm okay with that. I don't have a desperate need of finding a dominatrix or whatnot. So why would only AGP cause intense dysphoria, when both are autoerotic fetishes, and bondage was the dominant one?

>>8236029
The underlying AGP could have been there before or at the same time as the bondage without being obvious to you.

If the underlying cause of the AGP and bondage fantasies and the dysphoria is a desire to be female, then that could be why the dominant fantasy is bondage but the dysphoria is over being female.

Though that doesn't explain why bondage should be linked to being trans/AGP.

>>8237997
>Though that doesn't explain why bondage should be linked to being trans/AGP.
I don't think they implied it was.

>>8238362
The post you're replying to did.

>>8214864
>because it could be construed as invalidating trans women.
so could literally anything

>>8246978
False for innate gender identity.

>>8214864
>Independently of whether Blanchardianism is in fact true, there are obvious political incentives to dismiss the explanatory value of autogynephilia, because it could be construed as invalidating trans women.
it doesn't explain anything. it's litterally just a common thread between a bunch of trans people, but it itself doesn't define the condition of GID and anyone that thinks so is sniffing cocain

>>8233214
>>8233240