if agps were cis girls what would happen?

>>8207548
This is impossible to answer.

>>8207548
cis girls would cease to exist because AGP is a myth

>>8207559
what do you mean?

>>8207563
just a small % of cis girls the same way irl a small % of males are agps

>>8207548

Do you mean if autogynephiles became cis women or if cis women had AGP?

>>8207605
the same people who are agp were born female instead of male

answer both if you think something would make a difference

>>8207548
We'd get a lot of feminists off the back of the software industry and have a greater proportion of lesbians in the overall population.

>>8207563
>all cis women disappear after the Great AGP Switch
>artificial wombs become top priority due to males not coming with buttwombs naturally
>after a few generations of lab growing people MTF's are no longer a thing due society forgetting what females are
>geneticist finally figure out how to make people who can carry babies again
>all we know are men
>future is nothing but strongfat baras that jizz like a fire hose and qt twinky femboys with literal boipuccis in their tushies

>>8208572
>all cis women disappear after the Great AGP Switch
I think OP means there were AGP cis females instead of males, alongside regular women.

>>8208623
As long as the last line becomes true then I'm fine with whatever OP is worried about

>>8207548
>implying women can't be attracted to themselves for looking hot or sexy
>implying a small percentage of males and females aren't already AGP/AAP

>>8207548
The AGP would probably disappear and they'd live normal lives as women with (probably) normal female sexuality, due to having the correct hormone balance and overall body chemistry.

>>8209190
>You know artificial wombs are not something you carry inside your fucking body in 2017 and that technology will never advance again
I did not know that

>>8209493
It's not a fetish, it's part of a sexual orientation.

>>8209493
It stretches out your hips when you deliver making you more womanly.

>>8209493
>Unless you're some kind of pregnancy fetishist.
How was it not obvious that I was dreaming of a future that combines my fetishes?

>>8208758
Some males are AGP/females are AAP, but what OP said is the other way around, females being AGP and males being AAP.

>>8209180
But they'd still be different from other cis women the way they are different from other trans women irl.

>>8207548
>if agps were cis girls what would happen?
What did s/he mean by this?

>>8209797
>AGP
>a fetish

>>8207548
an agp cis woman would be autoerotic, I think.

There are bisexual cis women who fall into "agp" behavioral spectrums: Primarily into women, but have a huge fetish for getting railed and pounded by men and primary sexual interest in men. Thus they hook up with men irregularly. Lots of AGP would fall into that category of slightly weird cis women. Others, who were made very fetishistic in a male dimorphic direction, would be bizarre cis women. However nobody would call them out as being somehow totally distinct being from cis women like they do with the more autistic or male acting AGPs they would simply perceive them as masculine or weirdo cis women.

The only reason people get "male" vibes from certain masculine agp is because of their fee fees about their midface length or hip proportions or whatever.

>>8207548
>if agps were cis girls what would happen?

they would never leave the house.
they would spend their days squatted over a small hand mirror masturbating to their own loveliness.

>>8224949
>not leaving the house to find a bf to be hypersexual gf for

>>8225016
is that what agp means?
i thought that was hsts?
now i'm confused.

>>8224886
>There are bisexual cis women who fall into "agp" behavioral spectrums: Primarily into women, but have a huge fetish for getting railed and pounded by men and primary sexual interest in men.
>mfw this describes every woman I've ever loved

So how come I love cis AGPs but hate other trans women? Is it because of my feefees?

>>8225033
hsts are just normal girls. agps want to be hot lesbians or every guy's dream cool gf

>>8225046

What are you, a cis male?

>>8225046
Theories:
>they don't pass
>they trigger your dysphoria
>your expectations of them are different
>they are psychologically damaged from not being cis and having to transition

>>8225081
>hsts are just normal girls.

Are hyperfaggots really that much like normal girls though? In my experience, early-transitioning HSTS are more likely to have completely or mostly male friend groups than early-transitioning AGPs. But maybe that's just because lesbians are more likely to hang out with women and exclude men from their lives.

>>8225103

>early-transitioning HSTS are more likely to have completely or mostly male friend groups

The
>"I'm not like the other girls"
and
>"I can't stand being around other women"
memes rear their heads again.

>>8224886
Tell me more about these cis agps? Besides their sexuality, how to they differ from other cis women?

>>8225103
are there enough early transitioning agps for you to be able to make generalizations like that? i'd like to hear your experiences.

>>8225160
They usually just don't fit in very well and may have varying degrees of autism, but socially are generally okay.

>>8225046
Other poster pretty much got it right. You probably have internalized transphobia too; rationally, trans women don't deserve hate, more like pity, but it's easy to hate a pitiable thing. I'd try to resolve those feelings for your own sake. Neutrality is best.

>>8225547
>They usually just don't fit in very well
The same way trans agps don't or the same way cis lesbians don't?

>>8225564
I'd say in a similar vein but having that nasty tranny voice and male socialization and midface adds layers of complications

>>8225576
What are the social differences between cis agps and cis lesbians? Interests/hobbies?

>>8225613
cis lesbians like to play baseball and fix cars and are motivated to succeed in business.
cis agps are lazy narcissistic pieces of shit who mostly masturbate, watch anime and play video games

>>8225668
How do you know you're not just judging different bisexual and lesbian girls by their career?

>>8225668
My cis AGP friends don't watch anime or play video games very much, but they do masturbate A LOT. And they watch porn instead of read porn like I do.

>>8225696
Does that transfer to cis girl agps though?

>>8207548
They would just be an autophile then like the rest of the plastic surgery addicts in the world. Similar to how a transwoman can be an autophile without this agp myth

>>8225744
AGP != plastic surgery addiction

>>8225753
yeah that's why I said autophile and said agp in the other sentence

>>8225761
neither does autophile

why would being cis female turn an AGP into a autophile in that sense?

>>8225767
do you even know what agp means? think about it in the context of a female bodied person.

>>8225772
showing off her body, dressing sexily, meta-attraction, flirting, submission, stereotyping femininity in whichever way turns her on

>>8225705
Well I was talking about cis girls. And the porn was very submissive stuff too, and I know that they're masochists.

>>8225783
yes now where are the cis girls into it!

>>8225787
how do you identify them from other cis lesbians/bi girls? where do you meet them?

Cis women can be autogynephile now?

>>8230754
See >>8224886

>>8225792
cosplayers

>>8207548
A lot of them already are, the OP pic for example is most likely AGP.

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>>8234193
this.

literally all cis lesbians, cis bisexual women are AGP, like their trans counterparts.

>>8234611
I think cis lesbian brains are too gynephilic, like most cis male and HSTS FtM brains, to be AGP. It takes a sort of femme pseudo-bisexual brain to be tru-AGP.

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>>8234664
pseudo bi is a meme the 90% of the times, cis bi women and lesbians are AGP just like trans lesbians and trans bi women, only extremely masculine butch women and bull dykes (what are being replace by FtM HSTS) are not AGP, the majority of modern ""butch"" women would be femmen in the 70s and 80s, and are AGP as well, basically only closeted FtM HSTS are not AGP.

just look /cislesgen/, and cis lesbians in general, they clearly have AGP.

>>8234766
HSTS is a spectrum, less severely HSTS cis lesbians aren't closeted FtMs and aren't hyper butch/bull dykes.

Everyone on 4chan posts anime so that alone doesn't prove cis lesbians here are AGP instead of HSTS.

>>8234664
>>8234766
>>8235674
>tfw you've been a male lesbian(PsBi AGP with numale traits) your whole life, but thought that was just a joke meme straight men came up with

>>8235798
>lesbian(PsBi

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>>8207623
>the same people who are agp were born female instead of male
They would mostly have not developed AGP, because AGP is a fetish one develops through male socialization, over-consumption of heterosexual pornography, etc.

>>8239932
>AGP is a fetish one develops through male socialization, over-consumption of heterosexual pornography, etc.
[citation needed]

>>8240047
It's exceedingly obvious and the only plausible and sensible explanation.

Why the fuck would males develop a fetish for imagining themselves as pornified, wanton, slutty, or cutesy, girly women? All of these are male sexual fantasies, be it the cutesy girl, or the wanton slut. By developing a fascination with such women either through pornography, or through media with hyper-feminine presentation of cutesy girly women, men begin to fantasize of *being* that thing they adore. It only makes sense, because people often want to become what they adore, just like when they adore a superhero or something.

I believe Anne Lawrenece has written about this?

It's also exactly my experience with AGP. More focused on the cutesy girly girl in my case, because that's exactly also how I like women with regard to my normal heterosexual desires.

There's also something to be said about repression of queer feelings (in the old sense of "queer") and living these out through adoption of hyper-femininity, but that's for another day.

>>8239932
>>8240117
Anecdotal but I got hit by AGP way before I watched porn. Probably repressed though.

>>8240117
Anne Lawrence believes most trans women are trans because their male orientation is inverted to see themselves as the girl and this is the cause of AGP.

>>8207548
the number of real lesbians in the world would go up

>>8240117
But AGP-related dysphoria often manifests in children before they ever consume pornography.

>>8241595
Lol yep it's funny how a lot of "lesbians" are just failed straightwomen or non transitioned hsts transmen. Sucks desu I would of loved to be a transbian but AGPkids were not transitioned in the 90s. Now I get to be a masc numale instead.

>>8241658
>a lot of "lesbians" are just failed straightwomen
The other way around makes more sense, fail with other girls, decide to suck it up and be straight.

>>8241647
I remember AGP only manifesting when viewing porn but it may have been there before that. Really hard to remember now. I do remember not finding girls icky or stupid as a little boy, felt more comfortable around adult females than adult males. Perhaps thats a hint to a vestigal form of AGP.

>>8207548
But cis girls are AGP...

>>8241647
Examples of how it can manifest early?

>>8241710
I'm a gynephilic trans woman (AGP), but I remember having dysphoria before ever consuming pornography. But that might not be satisfactory, because it's conceivable that AGP could develop from non-sexual media that portrays women in a positive light.

>>8241707
Thanks for the contribution Charlie.

>>8241722
How early?

What was the dysphoria over? Wanting to wear girls clothes, wanting to play with female toys, jealousy towards something about female classmates?

>>8241746
Clothes and classmates.

>>8241751
Which clothes? What about classmates?

For a woman to be AGP, she would have to agree to these propositions

-I get sexually aroused at the thought of being female
-I get sexually aroused at the thought of having breasts
-I get sexually aroused at the thought of wearing women's clothing

I of course relate to all these. It's not just arousal but a romantic attachment. Being female is my ultimate, fantastical dream.

>>8241758
I wanted to wear girls' clothes, and would wear them to school underneath big baggy hoodies, and I would also wear girls' Converse shoes. And I was jealous of some of my female classmates who were shorter/cuter than me, and got to socialize with their classmates as cute girls.

absolutely nothing new cause most cis girls fall under the definition of agp

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>>8241722
>because it's conceivable that AGP could develop from non-sexual media that portrays women in a positive light
Precisely.

For boys, it's forbidden to be gay, queer, cheerful, happy. (I'm using the old meanings of the word "gay" and "queer" when they weren't related to sexual orientation.)

This causes boys to repress and hate themselves for having such feelings.

But then they see cute girls in media and/or real life being all cutesy, queer, happy, cheerful, gay, and otherwise sweet and open with their positive, life-loving feelings, and so these boys feel a deep longing for being like them.

This causes cuteness- and girlishness-focused AGP, as opposed to the porn-induced sluttiness-focused AGP.

Both can also manifest in one person at the same time. I have both because I've both gone through said repression, and I've began early consumption of porn portraying women loving to act all slutty and submissive, so I feel warmly cozy and erotic feelings from the thought of being girly, and at the same time lustful sexual feelings from the thought of being slutty and submissive.

I'm pretty sure that a large number of tgirls are basically just this, and think that these feelings are some deep essential thing about them instead of understanding that they're all socially induced, that said feelings have nothing to do with actually being female. (Both the girlishness and the sluttiness are sexist stereotypes projected and forced onto girls and women, who are *not* naturally like that.)

Being woke means realizing all this and not falling for the "I'm really a girl inside uguu~~" meme.

Bonus: scientific evidence shows homosexual boys to be statistically more likely to have effeminate personalities. So they are more likely to develop the girlishness-oriented AGP in early age, which may combine with a hatred for one's sexual anatomy which one is taught to be a symbol of masculinity. This may explain even HSTS resulting from a less sexual manifestation of AGP.

>>8243089
AGP might be socially induced but it is a fetish. Gender identity is distinct from it, and is innate, unless you mean to imply that cis people don't have innate gender identities either in which case lol.

>>8243102
A mentally healthy person does not react phobically to misgendering. Claims of "gender identity" serve to mask trans people's disordered fixation with being considered a member of the other sex.

Research has shown that most neurologically and hormonally normal boys who were assigned female at birth due to genital defects are comfortable living as girls/women.

https://medium.com/@rftbk/a-simple-science-review-on-gender-identity-4a9fb06a4cc3

>>8243226
>A mentally healthy person does not react phobically to misgendering.
I don't think you can say this because cis people are generally not *persistently* misgendered by everyone over time.

With that said I myself suspect that social dysphoria is socially induced.. but dysphoria is not just social. It is also physical, and I suspect that this portion of it is innate.

>Claims of "gender identity" serve to mask trans people's disordered fixation with being considered a member of the other sex.
There is some basis for them. Transsexuals aren't *literally* the other sex but they have features which are like those of the other sex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

>Research has shown that most neurologically and hormonally normal boys who were assigned female at birth due to genital defects are comfortable living as girls/women.
I read the link. It's interesting. I don't think it comes into conflict with my way of viewing things. I think that gender is largely socially constructed and as such, in the right sort of society, people of one sex can be raised to accept the gender roles we perceive as belonging to the other in our society. I don't think people innately object to being referred to as men or women. Biology isn't that clever. What I do believe is that it is possible to feel that your *body* (and/or hormonal balance, depending on which theories you suspect to be true) is of the wrong sex as a result of having a brain that is in some ways like that of the other sex. Essentially a form of limited neurological intersexuality. Whatever gender you want to assign to such people, they need HRT and possibly surgery to feel comfortable with themselves and social factors won't change that. This is also why I prefer the term transsexual to transgender - gender's fake ya'll.

>>8243226
>>8243285
Speaking of which, I just noticed that I wrote "gender identities" in my previous post, which obviously conflicts with what I'm saying now. I mean that in the "feels that their body should be feminine/masculine" sense, not the "innately wants to conform to gender stereotypes" sense.

>>8243285
>I don't think you can say this because cis people are generally not *persistently* misgendered by everyone over time.
Except they are, if they're assigned female at birth due to a genital defect even though they're neurologically and hormonally normal boys.

>Essentially a form of limited neurological intersexuality. Whatever gender you want to assign to such people, they need HRT and possibly surgery to feel comfortable with themselves and social factors won't change that.
Firstly I'd like to say thank you for not falling for the "transwomen are *literally* *female*" meme.

There seems to be some limited evidence for something like neurological intersexuality in some transsexuals (I remember Blanchard saying this), but I'm not sure if the evidence is convincing. As far as I know, the traits observed tend to be similar to traits also observed in regular gay men. Additionally, the observed traits may simply be such that they lead to a naturally feminine-leaning personality, which then leads to dysphoria due to social factors, when in a non-sexist society these people might be perfectly happy with their bodies because said bodies aren't associated with stereotypical masculinity.

Do you have any collection of studies that relate specifically to this neurological intersexuality? Last I know, the Zhou et al. study was hypothesized to be related to the effects of HRT rather than anything essential (especially because the dimorphism in the BSTc was only observable in adults), but maybe there's different studies.

>>8243408
>Except they are, if they're assigned female at birth due to a genital defect even though they're neurologically and hormonally normal boys.
They don't identify as boys, so they don't view it as being misgendered. I think negatively reacting to being misgendered is a social thing.

>There seems to be some limited evidence for something like neurological intersexuality in some transsexuals, but I'm not sure if the evidence is convincing.
It absolutely IS limited, you're right. It's just the best we have at the moment. The most "wtf is going on here" thing is the "pheromones" (note: not actually pheromones) study but it had a sample size of 32 people so we can't jump to conclusions here. Unless they fucked up the methodology somewhere the results are still striking.

> As far as I know, the traits observed tend to be similar to traits also observed in regular gay men
Okay so, the grey matter distribution and the overall structure stuff seems to be related primarily to orientation. Cis gay men have female-shifted brains and cis gay women have male-shifted brains. Pre-everything transsexuals exclusively attracted to their natal sex have brains that are mostly similar to the brains of cis gay individuals of their natal sex, and pre-everything transsexuals who are not attracted to their natal sex have brains which are mostly similar to those of straight cis individuals. Again, this is true when it comes to overall structure and grey matter distribution, but not the brain as a whole. Furthermore we know that prolonged exposure to hormones shifts the brain in the direction of a certain sex.

So, if I know this why do I believe what I do? What gives? find out IN THE NEXT POST OH GOD THIS IS LONG HELP 1/x

>>8243408
>>8243458
Consider the following:
Cis gay men are female-shifted and cis lesbian women are male-shifted.
We know that prolonged exposure to hormones further shifts the brain in the direction of a certain sex.
Would the brain of a cis straight man look significantly different from the brain of a gynephilic pre-everything trans FTM if the cis man was made to take female hormones for a lengthy period? That is, is the brain of such an FTM just the brain of a straight man shifted toward femininity via prolonged exposure to estrogen?

If overall structure is primarily a factor of orientation, then it could be that identity resides elsewhere (as shown by the dimorphism found in the stalk and so on). However this also means that we can't rely on overall structure here so I can't prove I'm right by using it.

>Additionally, the observed traits may simply be such that they lead to a naturally feminine-leaning personality, which then leads to dysphoria due to social factors, when in a non-sexist society these people might be perfectly happy with their bodies because said bodies aren't associated with stereotypical masculinity.
I don't think non-androphilic pre-HRT transwomen are especially feminine though? I might be stereotyping here but the masculine transbian stereotype seems to be held by a lot of people. Still, I can't say you're definitely wrong but it sounds like a bit of a stretch.

>Do you have any collection of studies that relate specifically to this neurological intersexuality?
There are the overall grey matter studies we both apparently know of, but they have the issues I mentioned so I don't think they're conclusive.
I'm not an expert and the BSTc studies were a bit beyond me, but I was under the impression that they did control for HRT, especially the later studies?
There's the "pheromone" study mentioned on Wikipedia. It is really intriguing BUT the sample size is absolutely tiny BUT the people in it were clearly reacting to *something* - ffff 2/3

>>8243408
>>8243458
>>8243487
- in a starkly sexually dimorphic fashion. We really need a followup on them with a large sample size.

Ultimately all of the studies we have give clues and hints but no conclusive evidence. They suggest the possibility. I look at them and I look at the history of transsexuality. All over the world, for thousands of years, there have been people who lived as the other gender. The natally male castrated themselves. Various societies accepted this to various degrees - most did not. I think that what we know, combined with the historical context, strongly hint that something other than just social pressure is at play here. This is not to say that absolutely no one isn't pressured in the ways you mentioned, but that I think that for a great deal of people the issue is innate. There ARE people who transition and regret it and I think that in a less gender-bound society those people would not have done so.

The last point is extremely anecdotal, to the point where I don't expect you to accept it, but a lot of people who still present as their birth gender take hormones in secret and claim that doing so makes them feel better. Doctors ascribe this to a placebo effect, or to seeing the minor positive effects the hormones have on the bodies of these people, but the bodies of plenty of people don't change significantly in response to HRT and they still claim that they make them feel better after decades of use. If it is a placebo it is one hell of a placebo.

>Blanchard
is an actually discredited memelord. Even if you disagree with me you have better people to back you up. Please don't buy into his shit.

I uh want to DEEPLY APOLOGIZE for crushing you under this wall of text I didn't think it would be quite this long but I had a lot to say. Thanks for reading (or skimming) and sorry. 3/3