transgender rights?

This is bigtime law creating and I really want legitimate opinions from all sources. The case continues.

>>8157179
>transgenderism
Odds are good you're just that Pedo troll from pol. They don't let your kind practice law, so out.

>>8157208
>Odds are good you're just that Pedo troll from pol.
Eat me, fuck face. I'm a lawyer in practise, and I'm dealing with these issues. And I'm back in court in a few weeks, so I'm looking for legitimate feedback. Not just "you're a fag".

So fuck off, and let the adults talk.

>>8157179
>that unless the parents' decisions about dealing with their minor child's transgenderism is demonstrably contrary to the child's interests to the point that the child is at at risk of harm, then the government shouldn't be interfering

So the trannies that attempt suicide will be fine, but the ones who give up will get screwed over and become like most people on this board.

>>8157208

He made a thread about this not long ago. He seems legitimate.

I'm not against children of any age living as any gender that they prefer. I am against the government telling parents that they must go along with the child's choices otherwise the child might go into foster care.

Thoughts?

>>8157215
So it would be really good if the judge and all the others in your case were mailed and told about all the Loli photos you keep on your PC

>>8157221
>He seems legitimate.
Thanks, Anon. I'm 100% legit. I'm involved in what might be the first case in Ontario about children's wishes to transgender bleeding into child protection law. I had the first appearance judge onside, but that's no guarantee I'll win.

>>8157224
Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. You can't opt out of treating a medical condition, that is causing harm to the child.

>>8157228
>So it would be really good if the judge and all the others in your case were mailed and told about all the Loli photos you keep on your PC
Let the adults talk.

>>8157224
>>8157179
Science says you're full of shit
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

There are many clinical trials by te largest medical organizations in the world and they prove you get a 40x increase in lifetime mortality and worse outcomes in every attainment category if there isn't early treatment.

>>8157241
>Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. You can't opt out of treating a medical condition, that is causing harm to the child.
But no diagnosis has been made yet. That's in the works. Should the government be allowed to override the parents' decisions in the absence of a diagnosis? This is why I'm in court.

>>8157235
Well, all the more reason your case be looked up in the records and the judge and whatever passes for a bar in your country be informed of all the Loli shit you post everywhere. I'm sure your place has ethics regs.

>>8157255
You can't have parents deprive patients of acess to medical specialists who'd make the diagnosis

>>8157255
I'm no law expert but tell me, if it was another medical condition, like say anxiety or depression and parents chose not to do anything, ignore the issue, and the kid never got a diagnosis or any help and suffered for it, how would things be legally?

File: popcorn-gifdream-of-jeanniebarbara-eden.gif (648KB, 500x275px) Image search: [Google]

648KB, 500x275px

>>8157179
>demonstrably contrary to the child's interests

who defines what the child's interests are?

>>8157266
>You can't have parents deprive patients of acess to medical specialists who'd make the diagnosis
I'm in court right now with the Ontario child protection authorities. I'm arguing that without a diagnosis, the authorities have no leg to stand on. So far, the court is agreeing with me. And in my case, the child is going to see an expert for diagnosis.

I see no issue with it.
There should be no reason for the government to be involved as to how you raise your kids as long as it's not killing them.

Like, even if you're someone that doesn't approve of lgbt people, it opens a door even you wouldn't want.

>>8157179
>unless the parents' decisions about dealing with their minor child's transgenderism is demonstrably contrary to the child's interests to the point that the child is at at risk of harm,
That's so fucking vague it's meaningless. Is it "demonstrably contrary to the child's interests to the point that the child is at at risk of harm" to deny them presenting as the other gender or taking hormone blockers? There is no way to tell what the judge meant.

>>8157273
>I'm no law expert but tell me, if it was another medical condition, like say anxiety or depression and parents chose not to do anything, ignore the issue, and the kid never got a diagnosis or any help and suffered for it, how would things be legally?
If there were a diagnosis for a condition and prescription medication was on the table, and the parents refused it, then it could be argued that the parents were refusing necessary treatment. And then the child welfare authorities could step in, and I've seen that happen.

>>8157224
>I am against the government telling parents that they must go along with the child's choices otherwise the child might go into foster care.
So then you support the parents' right to force a male child to live as a girl when she wants to be a boy.

>>8157297
Are they a specialist? Bill89 should make all of this irrelevant.
And you ignored the fact that there are large clinical trials proving that not having prompt treatment is harmfull. The untreated controlls die far more often and archive far less in life.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

>>8157310
That doesn't really answer the question.

>>8157310
Okay, well speaking just as a trans person, and not a medical profession or legal expert, as long as it's being treated like any other medical condition then yeah that's fair.

It's just when the parents go "ew, icky trannies, I don't want my child to be one" and deny the child treatment because of their bias when they would treat another condition that it becomes completely unfair to the kid.

>>8157317
>So then you support the parents' right to force a male child to live as a girl when she wants to be a boy.
Yes, I do oppose that when my client tells me to oppose that. If the client is an idiot then I won't represent the client.

But when the parent wants to deal with the child's transgenderism in their own way, I don't think that the state should intervene unless the court decides that the parents' approach puts the child at risk of harm.

>>8157327
>Are they a specialist? Bill89 should make all of this irrelevant.
This was my best argument to have the CAS' application dismissed, that it was jumping the gun on Bill89 or there was a SJW on staff who made this case a personal project.

>>8157344
How exactly is the parent planning on dealing with it?
This is a time sensitive thing. Once puberty starts, it doesn't go back, permanent harm can happen without medical intervention.

>>8157273
>if it was another medical condition,
>like say anxiety or depression
Protip: use actual medical conditions in your examples of medical conditions.

>>8157235
>children's wishes to transgender
What did he mean by this?

>>8157355
>This is a time sensitive thing.
That's part of the case. If the child is born female and at age 13 decides to be male, isn't it too late for hormone blockers to do much?

File: ra,unisex_tshirt,x2000,353d77-4d8b4ffd91,front-c,490,436,420,460-pad,420x460,f8f8f8.jpg (30KB, 420x460px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 420x460px

>>8157303
>That's so vague it's meaningless

That's because lawyers are paid by the hour.
The more confused everyone is, the more money everyone makes.

>>8157371
>What did he mean by this?
I meant that you should piss off if you're not going to contribute.

>>8157344
>Yes, I do oppose that when my client tells me to oppose that. If the client is an idiot then I won't represent the client.
Funny how you switch from making blanket statements about what you are for/against then as soon as you see how vile what you just said it, you switch to saying your only principle is your paycheck.

>unless the court decides that the parents' approach puts the child at risk of harm.
Which is arbitrary. Good news for human parasites who leech money off victims of arbitrary law!

>>8157374
>That's because lawyers are paid by the hour.
>The more confused everyone is, the more money everyone makes.
Eat me. I'm trying to figure it out. You saying that "lawyers suck!" doesn't help.

>>8157298
>repeatedly beat your child
>hurr durr it's not killing them
Literally the worst namefig on this board

>>8157390
>You saying that "lawyers suck!" doesn't help.
You're the one who admitted it >>8157389

>>8157389
>Funny how you switch from making blanket statements about what you are for/against then as soon as you see how vile what you just said it, you switch to saying your only principle is your paycheck.
Eat me.

I'm literally on the front lines on this issue, and if you'd rather call me a parasite than give some feeback I guess your a shit stain.

>>8157372
No they won't. Blockers will be fully reversible at that age and they'll keep the kid from becoming a tiny midget for the rest of his life.

>>8157372
Not at all. Puberty isn't over for years. And why should this child be denied treatment?
Or at least seeing a professional since it's it clear there's an issue?

>>8157378
>use language innapropriately when it's relevant to your job
>get pissed when people call you out on it

Lmao how did you even fucking graduate law school, you have actual autism

File: Maureen20McCormick-2.jpg (23KB, 312x445px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 312x445px

>>8157399
>your a shit stain

i doubt you passed the bar if you spell like that
>LARPer detected

>>8157399
>Look everyone, I'm a soldier for your rights, worship me!

You can all eat shit. I came here, as I've done in the past, looking for some legitimate feedback because this is literally before the courts right now. I'm not going to reply to each of you to tell you to fuck off, as much as I'd like.
I won't be posting further. But I'll be watching.
If anyone has anything interesting to post on the issue, then rest assured that I'll be watching. I was looking for some help here.

>>8157392
There's precedence that actions like that can very much kill a child, and you know what I meant. Don't be a child yourself.

>>8157421
Some of the people in this thread aren't worth it, but there's people posting legitimate comments. Why are you being a piss baby just because everyone isn't agreeing with you?
If you can't handle light debate with some anonymous people on the internet, how in the world do you deal with people in court?

>>8157421
Like I said, they do very poorly without treatment. And all of the medical orgs wouldn't consider fundy quacks who practice shock therapy treatment. Think of that please.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

>>8157409
>i doubt you passed the bar if you spell like that
>>LARPer detected
Oh, and you in particular can eat shit. A typo doesn't mean I'm larping. Then again, I have nothing to prove to you. Feel free to hack on me when I'm trying to LITERALLY CONTRIBUTE TO MAKING LAW and you're on me about my apostrophes.

>>8157429
You are retarded. You are basically saying you are okay with parents psychologically abusing kids. There are also more examples of illegal things parents can do to their kids that have no reason to end in death but are still extremely bad. You are the child here.

>>8157436
Prove you're a lawyer then. There's gotta be something you can post that wouldn't give your identity away.

>>8157430
>If you can't handle light debate with some anonymous people on the internet, how in the world do you deal with people in court?
Oh, I do very well and I get paid very well.
Maybe I'm stupid for seeking some input from 4chan. Forgive me for starting the thread. Even better, don't reply.

>>8157441
>Prove you're a lawyer then. There's gotta be something you can post that wouldn't give your identity away.
You're kidding, right? Fuck off. Don't believe me if you don't want to.

>>8157446
What do you even want?
People are giving you input and you're ignoring it.

>>8157446
Can you please calm down? We get lots of bait threads that resemble this. People probably jumped the gun and assumed you were one. Sorry

>>8157450
>What do you even want?
>People are giving you input and you're ignoring it.
Good question. I'll tell you what I want.

I want some legitimate comment on whether the state should have the right to override the parents' wishes on the issue of transgenderism, and when. At what point should I child be taken into foster care and be transgendered?

>>8157451
>Sorry
no need to apologize for the board, Anon. I'm not freaking out. I know that trolls exist.

But I'm legit, and I'm looking for serious input, and all I'm getting on this board, which should be helpful, is no better than what I'm getting on /pol/.

>>8157179
Parents should be allowed to decide whats best for their children, it's none of the governments business (in this context).

>>8157454
The child should see a mental health professional to determine a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. If one is made, the parents should treat the condition as advised by a professional. If they do not treat their child's medical condition, the state should intervene.

What's your agenda? Do you want to destroy trutrannies's right to an early transition?

>>8157467
No it should not, the government shouldn't have any legal right to intervene in this regard.

>>8157454
When parents refuse to get a diagnosis or they decide to ignore a diagnosis. It's pretty simple.

>>8157461
Why exactly are you asking /pol/'s opinion?
What legal benefit could that offer?
Like, I'm not entirely sure what you think you're going to get out of 4chan at all, but /pol/?
Why are you not researching the condition or talking to actual medical professionals? You know, stuff that would hold up in court?
I'm just confused, not accusing you of anything.

>>8157477
>>8157465
Fine, but then if parents want to deprive their kids of antibiotics or vaccines or are just mortally opposed to abortion that should stand too. Even if it means extra babies and kids with gnawed away heart valves

>>8157429
You need to fuck off, seriously

>>8157482
And how is the government supposed to know if the parents refuse to get a diagnosis? How do they even check who could possibly need one?

>>8157477
Why?
How is it different from denying a child medical treatment for any other condition?
If a child has symptoms of a possible medical condition and they refuse to even see a doctor for a possible diagnosis, should the state intervene?
I'm trying to understand here.

>>8157461

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

But please look at these, second especially

>>8157501
Well, for this instance, there's a court case in progress about it.
If the kid is having enough problems they're in court over it, then letting them see a doctor should like a good step to take.

>>8157467
>The child should see a mental health professional to determine a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. If one is made, the parents should treat the condition as advised by a professional. If they do not treat their child's medical condition, the state should intervene.
>>8157477
>No it should not, the government shouldn't have any legal right to intervene in this regard.

This is EXACTLY the issue. If a medical professional makes a diagnoses and prescribes therapy/medication for a child, and the parents refuse to go along with it, then should the state intervene?

There are lots of parents who don't get their kids vaccinated, which is a similar issue.

In my case at court, the child welfare authorities are looking for a court order to allow the child to determine their own mental health/counselling/transitioning agenda without a diagnosis. I oppose that.

>>8157487
>Like, I'm not entirely sure what you think you're going to get out of 4chan at all, but /pol/?
>Why are you not researching the condition or talking to actual medical professionals? You know, stuff that would hold up in court?
>I'm just confused, not accusing you of anything.
I'm doing all of that. And I'm asking for random opinion and input to put me onto data or opinions that I haven't considered yet.

>>8157510
What's your opinion on when the state should intervene?
If a kid dies of polio due to not being vaccinated, is that okay?
When does the parent's right to choose become a violation of the child's right to health care?

>>8157494
>But please look at these, second especially
I've seen those. I don't find them entirely persuasive.

>>8157477
Why? Children are not property. They have human rights and being denied of treatment is against it.

>>8157501
If the child asks and the parents seem to refuse, they should intervene. Sure they can't check everyone, but if it somehow becomes known, perhaps a teacher of the kid finding out, and after talking with his or her parents it seems to be the case, the teacher should be able to tell the authorities of the case and have them intervene.

>>8157510
If the parents are keeping it from a doctor, or they take it to an electroshock hack who's been kicked out of the medical orgs, then it's clearly harmfull.

>>8157437
I agree, there are. You'll recall it says 'to the point where the child is at risk of harm'. That very much includes abuse. Maybe 'not killing them' was the wrong phrasing, but yeah, if it's literally harming them of course.

The issue is, the government getting involved doesn't necessarily mean it's FOR trans kids, that phrasing could very much be used against them if some far right conservative decides being lgbt isn't a healthy lifestyle. Plus, beyond tgat, it can mean so many things. You can't home school or public school, you can't let them nit participate in sports because 'it promotes unhealthy habits', etc., it's a tricky situation. Maybe you have a way that it could ve phrased so it doesn't become that. Or are you just here to toss insults hoping that'll make me go away?

>>8157521
You don't have any medical training and both of those were large trials, the largest thus far and published in good journals.

You have no training to do medicine and you're being unethical in ignoring medical evidence.

>>8157489
Yeah, can't see the problem. Also transgenderism (?) isn't researched well enough to be able to conclude that sex change is the most effective method to reduce gender dysphoria, the biggest studies regarding this subject are mostly really poorly executed. For example the one comparing trans peoples brains to the brains of their desired sex, without considering hormones, the fact that being trans causes the correlation and not the other way around and sexuality (gay men have similar brain structure to females, lesbians to males). Apart from that it's questionable if the government should be able to decide if a child should take any medicines in case of psychological problems, it's not a physical illness after all and it's not a severe mental illness that causes direct harm to the child or affects others around it.

>>8157530
I don't see why we have an epidemic of namefag hons who think their opinion matters over all

>>8157510
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456472_5

>>8157520
>What's your opinion on when the state should intervene?
>If a kid dies of polio due to not being vaccinated, is that okay?
>When does the parent's right to choose become a violation of the child's right to health care?
OK, let's not get stupid here.
This isn't the same thing as polio at all.
And if you think it is, then you need to go back to the basics.
But you do raise a legitimate issue. A child can refuse health care. And a girl can get birth control or an abortion at 13 in Canada without parental knowledge or approval.

>>8157523
First of all children can't decide things like these for themselves, thats why we have age restrictions. Second of all children are the "property" of their parents until they're old enough to live an independant life. It's the parents job to raise their child not the governments.

>>8157534
>ou don't have any medical training and both of those were large trials, the largest thus far and published in good journals.
>You have no training to do medicine and you're being unethical in ignoring medical evidence.
I'm not being unethical. I've spoken to other experts about those studies, and it's not cut and dried.

I'm a lawyer. I'm not a scientist.

File: image.jpg (192KB, 640x1136px) Image search: [Google]

192KB, 640x1136px

>>8157536
It is you incompetent trailer trash. I don't see why you think you know better than thirty years of evidence and all the opinions of every major medical group.

It's narcissism, and dangerous as fuck. You need to be institutionalized and medicated before your God complex and incompetence hurts somebody.

>>8157539
I mean, tale it however you like, dude. My opinion's no more important than yours. Which is to say not at all. Getting angry about it's only going against yourself.
I'm here to discuss, not to force people to believe what I want them to.

I think you should ask yourself why that bugs you so much.

>>8157543
>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456472_5
Tell me what's there.

>>8157546
Not that poster, and yes is probably not on the magnitude of polio, but ultimately there's no reason they have to work under different laws. They are still denying treatment for no reason. It was obviously just an example.

>>8157549
Are you stupid? There's no reason to deny a child of a diagnosis because "it's not old enough". It's a fucking diagnosis and if the diagnosis is gender dysphoria the kids should have a right to get on blockers.

>>8157549
>First of all children can't decide things like these for themselves, thats why we have age restrictions. Second of all children are the "property" of their parents until they're old enough to live an independant life. It's the parents job to raise their child not the governments.
Anon, you're being harsh. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm sure you'll find fans on /pol/.

>>8157552
> trailer trash
I'm not murican. Besides you don't need to be a scientist to read those studies, compare them to others and point out flaws. I didn't say that the findings were false, I just pointed out that you can't just use a few relatively small and probably low budget studies to make a decision like this. "HURRR DURRR NON SCIENTISTS AREN'T ALLOWED TO READ MEDICAL STUDIES AND APPLY BASIC LOGIC TO POINT OUT FLAWS CUZ IT DOESNT FIT INTO MY WORKD VIEW". Go away hon.

>>8157558
>being this lazy

Exemptions from Parental Consent for Minors:
Mature Minor Exemption/Judicial bypass

The Supreme Court in Planned Parenthood v Danforth struck down the parental consent requirement for minors in 1976.[13] In the 1981 case H.L. v Matheson, a law that parents should be notified "if possible" was upheld.[26] The Supreme Court upheld a parental consent law with judicial bypass provision in 1983 in Planned Parenthood v Ashcroft.[27]

Emancipated Minors

Generally, the youth must be a minimum age, usually 16 years old, live apart form her parents, and be economically self-sufficient.[28] Definitions of an emancipated minor include those who are self-supporting and not living at home, married, pregnant or a parent, in the military, declared emancipated by the court.[28]
Emancipated minors are considered adults for several purposes, including the ability to enter into a contract, rent an apartment, and consent to medical care.

8 more pages, can't see the rest, I don't have access.
you, being a lawyer and all, should be able to find it in your law library

>>8157550
Does experts include the disgraced members of CAMH, they got shut down for academic fraud.

Shouldn't you value the AAP and other very large organization rather than a fringe clique of disgraced fools?

>>8157564
If the parents want to deny a diagnosis they should be allowed to, that was my point.

>>8157571
I didn't even reply to you though.

>>8157575
You have no training but you think you know better than large clinical studies and all the doctors in America combined

That's a delusion. That's dangerous. Low intelligence psychopaths like you are dangerous to society.

>>8157584
Why? How is that in the best interest of a child?

>>8157584
And why? You say it's because children can't decide for themselves. But what harm would a diagnosis do if it turns out the child was wrong? I don't understand. Explain.

>>8157189
Basically this means that children will have to risk self-harm more if their parents aren't willing to help them transition when they want to. The internet means children will have easier access to this information and if that case sets precedent, it just advocates self-harm in order to get government help. Kinda weird.

Pretending that a parent knows a child more than that child all the way until age of majority is also absurd. By junior high school most children have adult level intellect at their disposal, they just don't know how to use it appropriately. Source: Educator

>>8157575
It's funny how you think only mtfs would laugh at an incompetent fool who thinks too much of himself. Get back to pushing shopping carts.

>>8157588
And that stops him from pointing out that you're wrong how?

>>8157595
It's not, it harms the child. That's why pedoanon is in favor of it.

>>8157612
???

>>8157590
> all doctors in america combined
are you really this retarded to believe medicine gives this much of a fuck about your minority. There aren't any major or long term studies about transgenderism, the effects of HRT, or the cause of gender dysphoria. The biggest study researching brain structure has a laughable amount of test subjects and they even point out a flaw I mentioned before, that they didn't prove that the brain structure causes gender dysphoria and not the other way around. Stop reading shitty articles made by mediocre journalists and read the studies themselves.

>>8157579
>>being this lazy
Fuck you. This is a case. I've got a thousand articles and studies on my list. Tell me what this one is about or why I should read it.

Fuck, this isn't a hobby of mine.

And this isn't about emancipation law, this is about child protection law.

>>8157614
Trolls on 4chan like harming children, so they base all of their decisions on what most harms children. If that means making sure that children do not get medical treatment and instead get abused by delusional schizophrenic parents, than so be it.

>>8157546
Except blockers and abortion are both extremely dangerous and kill and maim thousands each year from embolism. There has never been a recorded death from GNRH blockers.

Ethics says that the far more dangerous elective stuff like birth control should be controlled as tightly as blockers. Or conversely we should liberalize blockers to the level of parental consent and ease of acess as abortions.
And contraceptives are deadly
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/132/4/663
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025417/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1496751/
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/france-limit-contraceptive-pills-carry-higher-blood-clot-risks-article-1.1232375

>>8157583
>Does experts include the disgraced members of CAMH, they got shut down for academic fraud.
>Shouldn't you value the AAP and other very large organization rather than a fringe clique of disgraced fools?
I'm a lawyer. I value anyone who is arguably legitimate who backs up my side.

>>8157627
Kid can have hormones for birth controls, for hormones for icky transgenderism? Not allowed.
Abortions are okay and they're permanent, but temporary and reversible hormone blockers? Horrible.

>>8157600
That's a good point.

There's nothing against the doctor diagnosing the patient being able to step in for a legal claim in the child's defense is there? If they could state that the condition being left untreated could very much lead to the child's harm, that might be something that could come in handy.

>>8157620
You didn't read these even though you were given them. Stop embarrassing yourself.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

The aap isn't just virtually all practitioners in the states. They run long term trials and have a well ranked journal

File: emmathompsontrup2017-1-500x585.jpg (39KB, 500x585px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 500x585px

>>8157189
>I really want legitimate opinions from all sources
>opinions

the only opinions that matter are those of the judges who have set precedents and the judge who will try this case.

why are you asking a bunch of trannies?

our opinions don't mean shit.

a real lawyer would look at the previous cases that dealt with this shit and see how the judges ruled.

the law is what matters in the courtroom, not some random 4chan opinions.

>>8157637
So proven fraudsters are cool. Please stop pretending you can do medicine.

>>8157604
You don't need to be competent in the field of a study to read and understand it you retard. The fact that you believe this shows that you're the retard here, I don't claim to know better and I don't claim that anything is false. I pointed out flaws in a study that the scientists themselves admitted and the fact that gender dysphoria is poorly researched, you're literally retarded if you believe you need to be a scientist to conclude this, you just need to look at size and amount of studies. Also every single one of thosr studies is well enough documented that any idiotic journalist can understand it.

>>8157644
Sssh, he's real dedicated to his LARPing. Let him pretend.

>>8157626
>>8157626
>Trolls on 4chan like harming children, so they base all of their decisions on what most harms children. If that means making sure that children do not get medical treatment and instead get abused by delusional schizophrenic parents, than so be it.
To my knowledge, 4chan opposes scientology.

>>8157627
>Ethics says that the far more dangerous elective stuff like birth control should be controlled as tightly as blockers. Or conversely we should liberalize blockers to the level of parental consent and ease of acess as abortions.
Thanks anon, some of that is new to me and could be helpful. Bookmarked.

>>8157648
>Please stop pretending you can do medicine.
I'm not pretending to do medicine. You're a moron.

>>8157643
You're missing the point, you can't draw a conclusion in a poorly researched field like this. The cause of gender dysphoria isn't even known yet, I'm not questioning if transitioning helps, I'm questioning the early conclusion that it's the best method without even knowing the cause of the illness.

>>8157644
>a real lawyer would look at the previous cases that dealt with this shit and see how the judges ruled.
This is new law, you fuck. Why do you think I'm here? If there are decisions already made then let me know.

>>8157639
This, that's why I voted for the republicans out of spite. All of those liberal hypocrites want to ban body autonomy. Unless it contraceptive death pills and abortion, then you can be as young as you want and get them without parental consent.

I'm very proud of how the republicans on their healthcare reform laws copied the text of the Trans laws to ban tax payer subsidies for paying for abortion. I'm proud of how the republicans on the states based the bills forcing minors to get parental consent for abortion on the trans blocker regulations.

The prolife is pro equality for once

>>8157654
To my knowledge, Scientology is the only religion to have never once had a member of the clergy or worshippers engage in systematic child rape. Did you think you would convince me I'm wrong by proving my point?

>>8157675
>The Supreme Court in Planned Parenthood v Danforth struck down the parental consent requirement for minors in 1976.[13] In the 1981 case H.L. v Matheson, a law that parents should be notified "if possible" was upheld.[26] The Supreme Court upheld a parental consent law with judicial bypass provision in 1983 in Planned Parenthood v Ashcroft.[27]

>>8157649
You say there no long term studies but there are. You say nobody cares but all the largest medical groups in the states care and organize trials that go in top journals.

Reality doesn't match your spin.

>>8157675
Maybe there's not ones about transgender kids, but surely there's been plenty of cases about mental conditions and what amount of choice parents have about treating them.
With all this anti-medicine sentitnment, I can't imagine there hasn't been a bunch of cases about kids with depression that didn't get anti-depressants or kids with ADHD that didn't get meds.

>>8157670
You say poorly researched when the largest medical groups deceive themselves to that and publish in top 10 pediatric journals

>>8157690
It's a mess, Anon. I've been doing research, and 99% of what's online is garbage. Which is why I'm here, looking for new leads.

>>8157461

You're a troll. If you are what you say you are, you're still a troll as well. You're trolling yourself too, maybe. If you actually cared about this you'd ask in real forums where people actually know things and are able to talk about them effectively. "Let the adults talk" you say--on a kids' forum. You're a silly person.

File: unWVHRc.gif (487KB, 360x269px) Image search: [Google]

487KB, 360x269px

>>8157721
you should go look in the law library.
12 year old boys fapping to dickgirls don't know shit about the law.

>>8157684
What you posted is neither actually long term nor is it a big study, with 20 brain development isn't even finished yet. If medicine would care there would be more than 55 test subjects.

>>8157721

Yeah, are you asking on Club Penguin too? Come on dude, this is a crappy place to do research.

>>8157726
>you should go look in the law library.
Are you retarded? This is new law. There are no binding decisions yet. There is literally nothing reported. Let the adults talk.

>>8157698
Poorly researched in a sense of not enough researched, not poorly executed.

>>8157741
>Yeah, are you asking on Club Penguin too? Come on dude, this is a crappy place to do research.
You think this is the only place I'm asking? Fuck, if you can't contribute then shut up.

>>8157742
>There are no binding decisions yet.

That's where you're wrong.
There have been many decisions regarding the emancipation of minors in medical situations.
The Supreme Court has ruled on it.
Either you're ignorant or you're trolling.

>>8157778
>That's where you're wrong.
>There have been many decisions regarding the emancipation of minors in medical situations.
>The Supreme Court has ruled on it.
>Either you're ignorant or you're trolling.
Holy shit, have you been reading?
This case I'm involved in is about whether the state has the power to tell a parent that the parent has to go along with the child's expression of transgendering.

This isn't about emancipating minors, although some of that law applies. This is about state intrusion on parenting and when it's warranted. Yes, minors in US and Canada can refuse medical treatment at a certain age. But that's different from seeking medical transitioning.

So either contribute or fuck off. Don't tell me that I'm ignorant or trolling.

>>8157778
Canada isn't the United States.

And the U.S. Laws are savage barbarism it's outlawed for minors to ever get blockers unless their both parents consent and are filthy rich to pay for 10K on diagnosis.

But kids don't need any consent for abortion or contraceptives or any diagnosis proving that will be safe to them and needed. The results, thousands of kids hurt by bloodclots because of no regulation + tax payer subsidies.

It's disgusting, I hope the republicans can finally take away the subsidies and make abortion and contraceptives just as regulated as trans blockers.

>>8157778
I highly doubt that these decisions applied to every medical condition and not just specific ones.

>>8157799
>thousands of kids hurt by bloodclots

source?

>>8157812
At least 1:2000 healthy teens get blood clots. Those generally end in strokes and death. Some 13 million take contraceptives, so the result is thousands of incidents.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/132/4/663
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025417/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1496751/
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/france-limit-contraceptive-pills-carry-higher-blood-clot-risks-article-1.1232375

Third generation contraceptives are so dangerous the EU is starting to ban them over safety reasons.

>>8157827
2,000 out of 13,000,000
correlation isn't causation
>so dangerous!!!!

for some perspective, how many teens die in childbirth?
how many teens die in automobile accidents?

yet we don't outlaw autos or pregnancy.

>>8157827
>http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/france-limit-contraceptive-pills-carry-higher-blood-clot-risks-article-1.1232375
Articles like this help me. Thanks, Anon.

>>8157852
Hey, if you're going to lobby for fairness and equity then I'm all for that. I don't see why a handful of special intrest pet projects should be above the law and take everyone else's money while everyone else suffers with no control over their body.

>>8157840
Nobody ever died from blockers. But those are so tightly regulated as so to be outlawed for everyone without the most liberal and wealthy of parents.

But contraceptives and Abortion, those have verifiable victims. How many lives are we allowed to destroy and it still be acceptable?

It's insanity that they're so deregulated and funded by subsidies when far safer things and far more needed things are outlawed.

It's purely special interests that allow them to be above the law.

>>8157840
So because we don't ban one this means we shouldn't ban the other because those lives don't matter, nice relativism there goyim.

File: matrix.png (499KB, 1024x428px) Image search: [Google]

499KB, 1024x428px

>>8157877
>>8157878
>Shilling for the Nanny State

Yes, we need to protect everyone from everything!
Just wrap them up in bubble-wrap so they can't hurt themselves!
For a small fee, of course.

>>8157920
I'm not shilling for the Nanny state, I've been actually doing the exact opposite for the whole thread. Doesn't mean I support the independence of children though.

>>8157920
If you care so much about the nanny state, then why don't Planed parenthood and all the contraceptives and abortion users all just liberate themselves from all the oppressive taxpayer subsidies?

Title X pays billions in family planing money to the breeders as a special interest. I don't see why they need the money when the deregulated state of birth control makes it so cheap to obtain out of pocket.

>>8157930
Can you explain why safe blockers shouldn't be as liberalized as all those blood clot causing birth controll methods?

>>8157877
>Nobody ever died from blockers.
This is the dumbest thing I've read all day.

Nobody is saying that hormone blockers have killed anybody.

The issue is whether a minor should be allowed to make the decision on taking hormone blockers, which (can? do?) have long term effects.

And whether the state has the right to step in when the parents object to the child's expressed wishes on this issue.

>>8157954
No but things that are verifiably far more dangerous and more optional are given completely deregulated and at taxpayer expense.

Where is the sense in that? How can you complain about a harmless and reversible thing that needs strict medical supervision to prescribe when far more dangerous things are given like candy by taxpayers and keep claiming victims.

>>8157954
Honestly, why are you even bother posting here? You already made up your mind with a /pol/-tier opinion and are clearly unwilling to change it.

>>8157941
do you really want millions of niglets running everywhere.
abortion is legal because it is cheaper than paying black women to shit out criminals.
you've got to think these things through.
>inb4 muh skydaddy

>>8158001
Child abuse laws will punish the parents if they don't raise them right and child support will suck the breeders so dry they won't be able to buy their opioid pills. It will be good for society if they treat it with the same medical stringency trans gets treated by.

>>8157954
The only long term effect of blockers is increased height. Hardly a disaster for a possible Ftm

>>8157954
if blockers are safe then what valid reasons do the parents have for preventing the child's expressed wishes other than religion?
the state can't impose religious views

>>8157976
>How can you complain about a harmless and reversible thing that needs strict medical supervision to prescribe when far more dangerous things are given like candy by taxpayers and keep claiming victims.
I'm not complaining about anything. Dude, I'm a lawyer. I'm not paid to are about the larger issues. I'm currently caring about the post above, which I'll repeat for you fuckers who can't read or want to pretend that literally everything is on the table:
The issue is whether a minor should be allowed to make the decision on taking hormone blockers, which (can? do?) have long term effects.

And whether the state has the right to step in when the parents object to the child's expressed wishes on this issue.

>>8157977
>Honestly, why are you even bother posting here? You already made up your mind with a /pol/-tier opinion and are clearly unwilling to change it.
My opinion is totally not the issue. I'm admitting that. I have a law case on this issue and I'm hoping that everyone here who cares about the issues without being paid to care will want to make a difference.

I'm not really that mercenary. I do care about the issue a lot, but my feelings aren't relevant. I'm trying to gather legitimate arguments, and legitimate studies, and arguments I haven't thought of, about why the government shouldn't be allowed to get a court order forcing parents to allow their minor children to go through with medical switching of genders when there's no diagnosis of dysphoria.

>>8158047
>The only long term effect of blockers is increased height. Hardly a disaster for a possible Ftm
I don't want to argue this particular issue, the science is all over. But I've seen a lot of reports that hormone therapy can lead to reduced bone density, infertility, and in teens who already exhibit anxiety, depression, or aggression those traits are amplified.

>>8158079
>the state can't impose religious views
Interestingly, that's another big issue. If the parents are religiously opposed to the child's transitioning, can the state step in? In both Canada and USA, religious freedom is guaranteed.

If you're a Burger worried about your guns, you're more likely to have the government stomp on your rights to exercise your religion before your guns are at risk.

>>8157179
Im for transgender lefts

As in please go and stay go

>>8158328
>the science is all over
Actually HRT is safe www.medscape.com/viewarticle/827713
Blockers aren't hormone therapy. And they've been carrying out clinical trials on them and minors since the 90s

You loose all credibility when you ignore overwhelming evidence because your own bias.
>>8158342
You can't use religion as a justification to kill people or deny medical care that results in their deaths. You can't use sharia law or fundy Christianity to justify the deaths of others.

>>8158348
>As in please go and stay go
Whut? I'm in court right now on a case about these very issues and I'm looking for arguments, information, and reliable data.

>>8158342
>>8158370
So just out of curiousity, does that mean that if Sharia law demands you preform FMG or ritual punishment, the state should support the parents?

>>8158370
>reliable data.
You're full of shit, you were given the overwhelming medical consensus and reliable studies. You threw a fit and said they lied because you didn't like them. You should go to /x/ instead.

>>8158370
By the way, you do realize that contraceptives use xenoestrogens and normal HRT doesn't. That's why the former is more dangerous.

>>8158370
>I'm in court right now
>late Saturday night

seems legit

>>8158395
>contraceptives use xenoestrogens

Really? Or are you just making shit up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen

>>8158482
ethinyl estradiol ain't found in nature and it sure doesn't have estrogen's PK properties

I'll preface this by saying I am not trans or in any way gender dysphoric. That said, if it were my call, I would make it so that, even if someone ends up being trans, they can't transition until a specified age (Probably somewhere in adulthood, but possibly higher than 18.), where we can be relatively sure that they are of their right mind, and understand completely the ramifications of transitioning and what it can do to the body of the person transitioning, such as the effects of making them sterile. If their need to transition outweighs the effects that they are well aware of, and they consent to transition, then by all means let them. I am of the belief that a child is way too young to even properly prove they are dysphoric, much less old enough to understand what transitioning properly entails and how it will effect their life, especially given that transitioning during their earliest years of school and social interacting is almost guaranteed to make them a social outcast (Granted, transitioning at any point in their life might do that to them, but at least if they do it as an adult, they can be prepared to face it.). On top of that, cases like David Reimer prove that, if a kid transitions and ends up not being trans, then they will be almost assuredly fucked up for life, because you made them dysphoric because the were fine before, but you made them the other sex.

>>8158497

Ethinylestradiol (EE) is a derivative of estradiol, the major endogenous estrogen in humans.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinylestradiol

>>8158533
good thing it's not your call, then.

>>8158533
I'm glad it isn't your call, anon.
You don't seem very bright.
What is your IQ btw?

>>8158560
Fair enough, that your opinion, but OP said they wanted a spectrum of opinions. I can't say I fully understand it, but I do take trans people seriously. That said, I also think transitioning is a big decision, with some trans people openly admitting that they don't think transitioning is for everyone.

>>8158589
Not sure, I haven't taken an IQ test in awhile.

>>8158541
Chemical derivative is a xenoestrogen. That alkyl group they stuck on changes the way it binds to some receptors. It's even given as an example of a xeno in >>8158482 for crying out loud.

>>8158533
>>8158611
Your plan has been tested in clinical trials. It leads to a 4000% increase in mortality and worse outcomes in every criteria ranging from education to mental health.
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

>>8158603
>>8158533
Do you also support a blanket ban of abortion and contraceptive use until a specified age Probably somewhere in adulthood, but possibly higher than 18?

Unlike blockers your breeder birth controls and abortion are deadly and kill thousands of minors and women.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/132/4/663
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025417/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1496751/
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/france-limit-contraceptive-pills-carry-higher-blood-clot-risks-article-1.1232375

>>8158638
I only voiced it after hearing the idea voiced by other trans people. I try not to speak often on trans issues. Of course I don't want to stop people from getting treatment they need, but I also don't want to see more kids turned into what happened to David Reimer because they said they were a boy or girl when kids also say that their firetrucks and dragons and whatever else have you. Maybe saying wait until adult hood is a bit too far, but I would want to make sure people could make informed decisions on something that permanently alters people more than literally most other surgeries.

As I already said, OP asked for a spectrum of opinions. I'm here to help them gain results more than anything. i fully recognize that I may just be a dumbfuck talking out my ass. I won't pretend that I might not be.

File: 1483536991002.jpg (264KB, 552x552px) Image search: [Google]

264KB, 552x552px

>>8158628
>Chemical derivative is a xenoestrogen

That's not how it is used colloquially.
Xenoestrogen specifically refers to BPA, phthalates, dioxin and other toxic hormonal disruptors.

You are being disingenous by equating birth control pills, which have been studied for nearly 50 years and found to be safe, with dangerous chemicals that have no medical purpose.

As such you clearly have an agenda of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
Probably because you think birth control is wrong because you are a misguided religious fanatic.

Take your shilling elsewhere, sister.

>>8158677
Which hasn't happened. Mooney disfigured him when he was a baby and it had nothing to do with trans which he opposed.

People are diagnosed for this carefully. And they get reversible blockers. You're honestly delusional sticking your foot in your mouth when a quick check of pediatric sources would tell you you're full of shit.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

>>8158482
>Really? Or are you just making shit up? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen
>Xenoestrogens include pharmacological estrogens (estrogenic action is an intended effect, as in the drug ethinylestradiol used in contraceptive pill), but other chemicals may also have estrogenic effects
Your own sources call you a liar. And chemical derivatives of natural stuff like DES plenty deadly.

Take your susan's shit elsewhere.

>>8158677
>voiced by other trans people
Quoting crazy hons who hurt others isn't helping your case you grotesque monster.
>Of course I don't want to stop people from getting treatment they need

You are, and that's where the 40% mortality rate comes from http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

It's disgusting knowing how welfare leaches like you are ruining shit for everyone else

>>8158720
>>8158680

>>8158732
It doesn't bind normally to receptors and the embolysim risk has been written about since the 50s, it's even more dire in the newer contraceptives. That's why even the EU is banning those.

>>8158533
I agree with your principles, but leaving the decision so late is much more detrimental to actual transgendered people, than the risks involved. I am so lucky that I managed to get on hormones while I was young (T-blockers at 15, oestrogen at 17), and now that I'm starting to pass and actually look like a woman, I am extremely happy. If I weren't able to get on hormones as a teenager. I have no doubt that I would be in a worse physical (I wouldn't pass nearly as well) and metal state, and maybe have gone through with my suicide attempts. The fact is that I was certain about who I was at 13/14, it took a year to convince my parents and psychiatrists, and finally get on testosterone blockers, which I was told was somewhat reversible.

The biggest fear and risk for me when getting on hormones was becoming impotent, luckily I have some sperm in storage so I can still have biological children, however I did this at 16, while still on T-blockers. While this is anecdotal evidence from my perspective the risks of T-blockers is a lot lower than some people believe, basically just delaying puberty.

The way that transgender cases are done in Australia is pretty good, especially needing two different psychiatrists to agree that the child is transgender, before any action is able to take place. However this only works in a supportive family, if a child is refused a psychiatrist by the family, or given one with an agenda, then no treatment is being provided at all. Which leads to the prevalence of self medicating. But this is a different problem. The fact is that the parents do not always have the intentions for a trans child.

>>8158261
>The issue is whether a minor should be allowed to make the decision on taking hormone blockers, which (can? do?) have long term effects.
I know they do need that right.
>And whether the state has the right to step in when the parents object to the child's expressed wishes on this issue.
I think they need to. The social costs to the child, and the monetary costs to the state due to late transition can be staggering.

>>8158533
>cases like David Reimer prove that
No they don't. David had a botched circumcision. Mooney told the parents we can turn him into a girl and he'll be fine. Sorry, but it didn't work. David had the brain of a boy so he rejected being a girl at a very early age. It is a perfect example of why children who continually express to want to be the other sex should transition.

>>8158744
>That's why even the EU is banning
The EU bans things when lobbyists tell it to. That's all there is too it.

>>8158533
>cases like David Reimer prove
the only thing that proves is that your gender identity is developed at an early age, and that upbringing doesn't have an impact on it

>>8161685
>the only thing that proves is that your gender identity is developed at an early age
more like pre birth.

>>8161618
>David had a botched circumcision.
Why is this legal?

>>8158342
Can the Jehowa Witnesses oppose a transfusion of blood into their children's body on the basis that it is in their religious belief and therefore cause a direct harm or even death to their child?
I don't think they can. You know that a freedom of religion has its limits and must be balanced against other people's rights. In this case, the right of the child to a proper healthcare.

>>8161744
[citation needed]

>>8161880
rat studies. They removed the ovaries and testicles in gestating rats, then gave them cross sex hormones, and created transgender rats.

>>8161894
Firstly GNC and homosexuality aren't the same as transgender and secondly rats aren't humans.

>>8161912
I wasn't talking about homosexuality at all, and what does GNC mean?

The references to this article are rather interesting. Babies are already showing gender differences in the first year of life.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7f84/8898be00e243a9c8748b453c1f3420292345.pdf
>

>>8162022
>I wasn't talking about homosexuality at all, and what does GNC mean?
Gender non-conforming.

Transgenderism can't be detected in non-humans even if it could exist in them, which there is no reason to think is so.

>Babies are already showing gender differences in the first year of life.
Babies are treated with gendered behavior from the moment their gender is known. Of course it has an effect.

>>8162040
>Transgenderism can't be detected in non-humans even if it could exist in them, which there is no reason to think is so.
>Babies are treated with gendered behavior from the moment their gender is known. Of course it has an effect.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/
>Socialization processes, parents, or peers encouraging play with gender specific toys are thought to be the primary force shaping sex differences in toy preference. A contrast in view is that toy preferences reflect biologically determined preferences for specific activities facilitated by specific toys. Sex differences in juvenile activities, such as rough and tumble play, peer preferences, and infant interest, share similarities in humans and monkeys. Thus if activity preferences shape toy preferences, male and female monkeys may show toy preferences similar to those seen in boys and girls. We compared the interactions of 34 rhesus monkeys, living within a 135 monkey troop, with human wheeled toys and plush toys. Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization. We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans.

>>8162040
>Transgenderism can't be detected in non-humans even if it could exist in them, which there is no reason to think is so.
The watching of behaviors can elicit if the rat is behaving as a female rat or a male rat. Researchers have studied transgender rate and dogs. I personally have seen a transgender bull. It acted like cows do, and didn't try to mate with cows in heat. Instead it tried to get the interest of the other bulls in the field.

>>8162102
Monkeys aren't humans either.

>>8162126
they make excellent models for social interaction that strongly correlate to humans.

>>8162149
>strongly correlate
In other words, pure hypothesis.

>>8162118
And you knew this wasn't a homosexual bull how?

>>8162194
It displayed it's self in front of other bulls as a cow in heat would. It didn't try to mount other bulls. I've seen another bull try to do that.

>>8162174
Are you going to offer your babies to be test subjects for determining when gender is set in humans?

>>8162215
So you concede that it's a matter of when not an issue of nature vs nurture.

>>8162208
>Gay bottoms are trans

>>8162118

>Instead it tried to get the interest of the other bulls in the field.

And failed, right? I'm sorry for that she-bull. I feel for my sister. :(

>>8162314

If you believe Michael Bailey and those other people Trent follows, yes.

>>8157798
please don't use the word "transgender" as a verb, jesus christ
not because it's offensive, but because it makes you look fucking stupid

>>8158328
puberty blockers =/= hormone replacement therapy
looks like you need to go back to square one

also the medically accepted knowledge atm is the Martin and Ruble study that says that gender identity is solidified by 8-13

I don't think anyone's going to convince him of anything. As a lawyer, he has a financial interest in making sure his side of the case wins, and he is not on the side of trans children. So whatever he needs to believe to continue the case is going to be what he believes.

>>8161744
>more like pre birth.
how is pre birth not early age
wew

>>8162415
the David Reimer case says it is solidified much earlier. His testes were removed at 22 months old. His gender identity was already firmly set to male and stayed that way despite being given female hormones.

>>8162377
The bull didn't live much longer. It was put into the feed lot and went to market.

>>8162377
>she-bull
That's a crude slur.

She is a cow. A "cos (male)" if you want to put it like that, or a "transcow" instead of a "ciscow" if you want to be technical, but a cos nonetheless.

can we track down what the case is? It should be in the public record.

>>8162581
>the David Reimer case says
nothing whatsoever about normal development, including trans people's development.

>>8162649

Since it concerns a child, I think not.

>>8162653
Wrong. These studies >>8162102 are all on normal kids and they are saying gender specific preferences are there pre 1 year old. The David Reimer case reinforces that because David Reimer didn't have any male hormones after 22 months old, and was raised as a girl, yet still rejected that upbringing and transitioned back to male at 14.

>>8162703
gender != toy preferences

File: Why this, God? Why?.jpg (56KB, 300x360px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 300x360px

>>8162581

That doesn't make me feel any better. Culled because she was a defect of nature and of no use to anybody.

Are you a cattle farmer? What was the impression everyone else had of the bull on the ranch/packing facility? They weren't making fun of her, were they? Did she fail to get mounted?

>>8162586

Why the s instead of w? I thought it was a typo, but you did it twice.

>>8162621

I've been wondering that since he posted >>8157297.

>>8162762
>I thought it was a typo, but you did it twice.
I just can't into keyboard.

>>8162762
Ya can't afford to keep a useless bull around. Off to market it goes. I'm a cattlewoman. Very few knew of it, and the slaughterhouse had no clue.

>>8162762
>Did she fail to get mounted?
One of the bulls was a chaser.

>>8162791

>Ya can't afford to keep a useless bull around.

I know. I was already aware of Freemartins being culled for the same reason. I wasn't so bothered by that though. I guess it's just because this bull is more relatable. But what did the people who knew think? I'm guessing you only noticed because you're trans yourself.

>>8162934
not many people knew. I found out about some others from my uncle who was a university prof doing cattle breeding research.

>>8163012

>not many people knew

Is there a reason you keep evading the question? Of the people who did know, what did they think? Is it because I'll feel bad again?

>I found out about some others from my uncle

So your uncle has seen other cases of the same thing?

>who was a university prof

Is he dead or did he leave teaching? Did he have a particular interest in disorders of sex development in cattle? Has he published anything about these bulls?

And since you said the bull went to market, at what age was she culled? Before the testosterone changed the taste of the meat much?

>>8163183
Why are you so interested?

>>8163208

In this subject overall, or in that one question?

>>8163228
In the subject overall.

>>8163183
maybe I don't remember what they thought. This happened over 20 years ago.

>>8163282

I think it's pretty natural as a tranny to look for signs in animals of the same affliction you have. I'm sure that bull suffered in some respect at her inability to mate.

>>8163314

That's understandable. But then why didn't you say that and save us both the trouble? What did you think of the bull then? Have you seen any like her since?

>>8157429
And there's precedence that trans kids not being able to start blockers can massively increases rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.

Yeah, going through their natal sex's puberty won't kill them directly. But it'll fuck them up for the rest of their lives and over half of them will eventually kill themselves. That is not acceptable in any way.

Think of it this way. A 7 year old kid is diagnosed with a progressive illness. They have a 50% chance of dying by age 40 because of it. However, if the child starts taking certain medications before they're 16, their chance of death from this disease goes down immensely, to far, far less than 1%. However, the child's parents have a religious objection to the treatment. Is it right for the parents to deny their child the medicine? Should the government intervene?

>>8157530
The government is already able to intervene when parents refuse important medical procedures for their children. The argument is that this should be extended to transition, given that it is an important medical procedure for trans people. No one is arguing that the government should be able to force parents to do just anything, we're saying the protections that already exist should cover transition too.

>>8157670
>I'm questioning the early conclusion that it's the best method without even knowing the cause of the illness
It's the best method we have. Yes, maybe in the future we'll have better treatments. Maybe all it'll take is a single pill and then your GID is cured forever, whether by changing your body or your mind.

But we don't fucking have those. Transition is the best we have now, and it's shown to be effective especially in young people. Arguing that we shouldn't let kids get blockers (something that's entirely reversible, and has a limited time frame to function in) because we might possible discover an alternative treatment is ludicrous. We don't say kids can't get heart transplants because in a few decades we might be able to do something better.

>>8161767
I think circumcising children is barbaric and should be a crime unless done to treat actual medical issues like phimosis, but to be fair botched circumcisions are incredibly rare. And the doctor performing Reimer's was using an unorthodox technique as I recall.

I'm against child circumcision because I don't think minors should be allowed to have their body significantly altered unless it's for medical reasons (such as transitioning), not because I think it's dangerous.

>>8164280
If it makes you happier, look at it this way. The bull almost certainly lacked the mental faculties to perceives its own gender, and especially not its gender relative to other bovines. And even if it did, it probably would've thought of itself as just a large cow rather than a bull, given that they don't have much of an ability to inspect their own bodies or understand what a reflection is.

>>8166037

That makes it a bit better. It's still a little sad.

>>8166013
>unless done to treat actual medical issues
That's just used as an excuse.