What does /lgbt/ think about non binary people?

There are only two genders.

People evaluating if they're trans or not. One of my earliest forms of denial was wishing I could jump between genders until I understood I actually only wanted to be one of them.

>>8150807
Spoiled attention whores with a victim complex.

A needless label for something that was always a thing, personally.
It's basically androgyny with guidelines.

>>8150807
Let people do what makes them happy.
It's not like someone's gender matters in the large scale of things,

>>8150807
I like them more than binary trannies.

>>8151186
How am I supposed to pursue my life goals and career if I can't identify what's between a person's legs?

Now you'll tell me something ridiculous like don't introduce myself by immediately dropping my pants so they can confirm my genitalia.

>>8151215
You gotta accept that you won't be able to tell everything about everyone you meet.
Do you need to know everyone's
religion, culture, age, sex, sexual orientation, race, class, first language, country of birth, political alignment, so on.
It's sometimes important
Like if you're a trans person's doctor you will need to know the details of their sex.
If you're a politician you need to talk about your political beliefs.
If you're trans (binary or otherwise) then you disclose as you see relevant.

>>8151276
I mean, I was joking, and making a ridiculous exaggeration to agree and show how dumb it is.

But also, yeah, people sort of obsess over any classification aside from their own in order to deal with their own insecurities.
In simpler terms-
>this person isnot me
>this person is different than me
>does this make me better or worse?

>>8151339
It's also pretty uncommon to hear people say some other truths.
>men have some advantages, so do women
>men have some disadvantages, so do women
>trans people have some advantages and disadvantages.

It doesn't exist and should go away already. No need to give it any more attention than that.

>>8151215
I don't give a shit about your fucking genitalia just don't scream in my fucking face and bitch about oppression on social media just because I called you a girl.
Yeah, I get now that you're trying to look like a boy but you don't, you just look like an ugly girl. Go fuck yourself.

>>8151356
Well yeah. At the end of the day, we do have our differences, there's no denying that.

It becomes a problem when people take that to mean "superior" or "worse".

>>8151356
>trans people have some advantages
???

>>8151356
Yeah all those damn non passing mtfs soaking up all the privilege where do those assholes get off??

>>8150807
Mad fake nigga

>>8151215
The fuck is wrong with you

Oh yeah it's 4chan

>>8151339
>>8151339
Ahh I see now, my apologies. I thought you were serious because,

It's 4chan

>>8151746
I'd judge, but I'm fairly certain I'll see someone saying something far dumber unironically before the night is over, no worries.

>>8151570
>>8151595
I'm a transsexual and I've become a better person since I've come out and transitioned.
I can just relax since I've decided I'll do my own thing.
I don't need to worry about gender stereotypes or having to take part in roles that I don't want to be apart of.
HRT has expanded my understanding of brain chemistry and emotions.
I like the feeling of making a choice to start puberty slowly and ease into it at my own pace.
I have doctors following me so I'll know that I have low blood pressure and that I don't have any vitamin deficiencies.
I've been able to find myself and who I actually want to be without being pressured to pick anything other than the truth.
I can also pass as male or female now depending on how I present.
I can see and be see as a particular gender.
I have an expanded understanding of gender and sex.

You folks have learnt something right?
I've learnt that I value my truth over any relationship I've ever had.
That's what I learnt as I needed to come out.
I value the wisdom that comes with this deviation.

>>8151140
/thread

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>>8151159
>A needless label for something
>Puts a title on his posts

>>8151159
As someone who is this thing it's convenient to have a name for it and a somewhat-defined slot/role in society, instead of being kind of a vaguely known idea that people sort of acknowledge. I would prefer a single word, where I can just say I am nonbinary or genderfluid or whatever and people will get my deal in a nutshell, versus having to explain my specific configuration of preferences and traits and whatever every time someone starts questioning me on why I am dressed a certain way. Does that make sense? In the end it's all BS and people shouln't care, but it would make my life easier to have a term for myself that kind of sums the idea up and that the average person is kind of familiar with so it doesnt have to be a big conversation.

now I bet I will be called an attention whore for typing this much about it. But really if you are someone who just wears the things you like and goes about your day it's other people who come up to you and start saying things and asking if you are a tranny or a fag/dyke or a crossdresser or why dont you do this or that or blah blah. A term that could make being this way more of a concrete thing and so people who share this tendency could find eachother would be handy. Similar to how people give asexuals shit because their term and community seems unnecessary and fake to the outsider, but they want to be able to find eachother and have a community so they do.

>>8152770
Nah, dude, you're not. I get it. You make a valid point. As much as we all wish it didn't have to, labels help define us to the world.
I just feel like the more overly specific one, cosmosexuals, etc., etc. start to look trivial and takes away from pushing towards the idea of not having to use labels

>>8152724
Well yeah, if you're having a back and forth with me, I feel it's easier to avoid confusion. Since, you know, everything else is anonymous.

>>8152830
That's unnecessary if you're able to properly follow a conversation. I've never heard of that being a problem on this website before, my dude.

>>8152839
Eh. Easier to me at least. Plus it saves time when it comes to making points and continuity if people at least recognize your personality bedorehand. I get why people can think it's annoying, but eh.

>>8152856
I disagree with your outlook, but eh. There's not point in arguing it any further with someone like yourself.

>>8152821
>the more overly specific one

Yeah I can meet you there. I don't really use any of those but there's two reasons it doesnt bother me much.

(1) is that because the whole "nonbinary" labelling thing is kind of underway at the moment, I think there's inevitably going to be a whole bunch of diverse terms for it for a few years until a group consensus develops and the most popular word becomes settled on (i think nonbinary, genderqueer, and genderfluid are probably the most likely of the terms to be chosen from). So I think of alot of the extra terms that exist as kind of debris that will go away with time but will inevitable exist as the idea becomes developed and normalized.

and (2) there are always gonna be autists who simply enjoy being hyperspecific about things, and I don't think there's any way or reason to stop them, whether it's in the field of inventing complex gender terms for themselves, or memorizing how all the zodiac signs interrelate, or people who are way into all the different permutations of putting stats and items in rpg games, or people who invent their own languages with 9000 ways of expressing emotional nuances...some people just like that stuff and they can't be tamed

>>8152862
See? It works!

>>8152870
That's not what I meant, the ego of your lot really does shine through text though. I will give you that, my attempts at sarcasm to annoy others doesn't hold a candle to your seemingly effortless replies.

>>8152868
You're right. Usually they don't really leave their little collective anyway, so I shouldn't be too worried, but when the media puts out shit about 'transethnic' and 'catkin' I'm not gonna lie, I panic a little.

>>8152870
>>8152884

I want both of you to be namefags and to get married and act like the odd couple, how about that?

>>8152884
Dude, I was joking, relax. Just ignore me if it's that big a deal.

>>8152894
You're in every thread, I like to poke fun myself.

>>8152892
One of us would smother the other in their sleep or give the other some almond scented tea.

>>8152901
What's that old line? If you were ny husband, I'd drink it?

>>8152927
I just pulled it from Edgar A. Poe but that works too.

>>8152931
Ah, I assume it means cyanide at least.

>>8152952
I don't expect you to be familiar with his work but yes, it's cyanide.

>>8152958
It's been a while since I read Poe. I know it's cliche at this point but I was always more into Lovecraft's circles. I have a thing for existential horror and monsters.

>>8152965
I never really needed something as overthought as Lovecraft's works. I prefer more grounded works of fiction.

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>mfw I left the thread for a minute and came back to find these two namefriends acting out their strained marriage like I asked

>>8152985
Ironically, my favorite short horror story's Le Horla by Guy de Maupassant.
All it is is a guy haunted by a silent invisible entity.

>>8152996
Mind your own business.

>>8152997
Ghosts have always been very off-putting to me, that story sounds very boring.

>>8153003
It's not a ghost, it's just this thing. It's physical, but unseen. It's surprisingly not boring the way it's played out.

I agree though, I'm kinda saturated on ghosts. All these bad flicks coming out don't help.

>>8153034
Well that sounds even worse than a ghost, that's hardly even paranormal. If I wanted something that close to real life horror I would just go on this website more often.

I don't really care for movies.

What confuses me is that im a guy on female hormones who spends most of his time dressed and acting like a a regular guy but often crossdresses and goes out as a woman.

like as far as non-binaries go Im about as good a candidate as there is, but I still consider myself just a guy.

So I dont really believe in non binary when I see people who do a lot less than I do and treat it as a whole identity yknow?

>>8153045
Ha! You should give it a shot, though. I think you might enjoy it. Plus it has my favorite quote of any story about believing in the supernatural.

>>8153096
Yeah, your speech patterns are very contrived from what I've noticed. I can see that.

>I think you might enjoy it.
Whatever you say, dearest.

>>8153117
Ooh! How do you feel about comics?

>>8153129
Leave it to you to have a horrible memory of what I actually like.

They're for children with IQs that range within the 70-90 region.

>>8153142
I mean I do try to aim the ones I make a little higher. I hope I'm not confusing the readers too badly.

http://reader.manga-download.org/read/homunculus/en/1/0/page/1

If you enjoy psychological horror, you should give this a whirl. I'm sure you'll hate it.

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>>8153179
Well your standards are unusually high for someone like yourself. I'm sure the readers are scratching their heads every panel.

>I'm sure you'll hate it.
Oh, just you and only you.

>>8153206
You sure know how to make someone feel special~

>>8153179
oh shit I loved Homunculus. I don't read alot of comics/manga but that one was great.

>>8153215
Well you're literally special and I might as well by your caretaker. The tilde is evidence of that.

>>8153221
I saw. But you know, me and my ego. I'd have hated to bring it up.

>>8153256
I know you better than you do. Your ego is blatant but so is your lack of brain cells. I'm shocked you have the capacity to bring anything up these days.

>>8150888
This, I used to think I must be gender fluid or something because I wanted to jump between genders at will. I think it's just a form of "today I feel very dysphoric, and yesterday I didn't feel too bad about it" that manifests like this because of what the internet keeps telling you.

>>8153263
jeez dude..

>>8152724
underrated post

>>8153296
He's great in the bedroom but besides that he's as useful as a paper mache kidney.

>>8153263
Oh, you know I love it when you talk dirty~

>>8153218
I know right? I stumbled upon it a while back and immediately binged it.

>>8153340
Well you haven't killed me in my sleep yet for a reason.

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Lmao.

>>8150807
Self fulfilling victimization. When you don't have any real problems your non binary style makes you special!

>>8153389
Having dysphoria is a problem but unless I either suppress it or go full transgender I will be ridiculed for dealing with it how I want to. If I dress or act outside the norm people will treat me badly for it. If I try to stand up for myself for simply dressing and acting how I want to in the face of people treating me badly, I recieve more ridicule and bad treatment and on top of it I'm an attention whore because I want to express pride in myself rather than bend to people's ridicule and express self-hatred instead. I think that's stupid. I'm not usually brave enough (or "attention whore" enough) to dress how I actually want to, I stay low key because I'm afraid of shit like getting beat up, but I think it's fucked up that people can't just present themself how they want to.

This is not something I talk about with people much IRL, I don't portray myself as a victim, I hate to think of myself that way or draw attention to that kind of thing for myself, but I also have a hatred of seeing people get treated badly over trivial shit such as what clothes they wear and if they want to go by a different name. If it makes that person more able to function in society and hurts nobody then just let them do it. No need to shame them, what's the point of that? It's just bullying because you think someone is weird even though they're harmless.

>>8153529
but what makes you non binary rather than a guy who doesnt mind being feminine occaisionally ( or vice-versa)

its the useless label (at least I havent heard a real explanation for it yet) that makes it seem attention whore-y. I dont care if you dont fit in with gender norms. I dont either but im still a guy

>>8150873
this
/thread

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>>8152856
Literally this.
It makes more sense on a less active board like this one too.

>>8154180
Here is the explanation for the useless label

>>8152770
>>8152868

When there's enough people who share a trait to form a community they're going to start making up names that describe themselves and what they do, and they can't really be stopped from doing that once it begins because it's convenient for them.

For example, I could go around telling everyone "I just fall in love with people for who they are on the inside" and explain what I mean by that, or I could just say "I'm bi" and be done, thanks to the word bisexual existing and people knowing what it means.

Or for the asexual people, they could go around in life having to describe every nuance of their lack of sexual attraction to people, or they could just say, "I'm ace" and while that term is not understood by the average person yet, LGBT people tend to know what it means (whether they want to take asexual people seriously or not) and it shortens the conversation considerably, making life easier for the asexual person and anyone they talk to.

>>8155489
Oh and it has probably existed in every time period and culture of the world to have someone say at some point, something along the lines of, "I don't really feel like a man or a woman". It's at least a very common feeling in my current society. Being told "well there are only men and women so you can't feel like that" doesn't change the feeling so it just seems logical that there should be a word that sums the feeling up whether or not the average person wants to take it seriously. It's clear that throughout history and across cultures there have been "third gender" people; it's a common enough feeling that some societies do have a name and position for people who feel that way in some form. So right now this is just a matter of converting a society that doesn't have a name for that into a society that does have a name for that. Whether or not there is a name it still exists, and following that, if the people who feel that way want a name/term for it where one doesnt exist...they're going to make one, as is clearly happening now.

There can be people who feel this way and dont want a name for it, obviously. But since they dont want a name and there isnt one, there's little reason for them to be vocal about it.

>>8153084
This! I'm a grill who like both shirts and dresses, occasionally wears a light binder (for some outfits) but don't want to cut off my boobs, wishes I had a peen more then anything and often wear a packer around the house in my mens boxers and ladies tights... (that sounded a lot more pathetic written out then it did in my head) but I regard my self as how others obviously see me; a grill. I don't see the appeal of smacking some label on my self and demanding different pronouns. It's just empty words, it doesn't really change anything about me.

>>8155489
I see what you're saying but its still not right

I can see that people who share common traits makes up ways to refer to themselves and I understand that that is a good thing like a group of people calling themselves bi because they can be attracted to either gender.

But what I don't get is the jump to calling these shared traits a gender. It just seems self aggrandizing to call a trait you have a gender just because it has something to do with gender roles

It'd be like saying
>e and my friends are men but we all like listening to depressing music, wearing all black, and wearing makeup. So we've started calling ourselves goths.
>But goths wear makeup and men don't normally wear makeup so from now on please dont call me a man and only refer to me as goth/goth/gothself

That's where people find it attention seeking and that's where the difference is in your examples. In the forcing extra importance on to something you've created.

Its the jump from saying
>I don't really feel like a man or woman - so I guess I'm just a man who doesn't have as strong ties to masculinity (or the same for a woman)

To saying
>I don't really feel like a man or woman - and this is a fact that requires legislation

>>8156227
see, this girl gets it

>>8157243
I'm not necessarily saying that it should be considered a separate gender--although I am not against it going that way if thats how all of this pans out.

I like your example with the goths. In this group of people you're going to have people who look and act like a goth and DO want to be called goth, and people who look and act like a goth but DON'T want to be labelled as goth.

To me, it's a good thing that the people who DO want that label have that label available. Meanwhile, the people who don't want it, are free to say "No, I don't consider myself a goth."

Nowhere in the situation that I'm envisioning is there anyone who is telling the person who seems to fit the goth label but doesn't want to be a goth, that they have to identify as a goth now because they fit the label. That's for the individual themself to decide.

That's how I believe it would work out with recognition of a "nonbinary" gender.

Obviously, people are going to continue beng assigned the male or female sex at birth. Nobody's going to assign "3rd gender" when a baby is born. The nonbinary/3rd gender is only going to come in when that individual themself says that they would like to be seen as that. People who don't want to be seen as that can go on identifying with what they were assigned at birth, because that's still the logical default. And meanwhile, an option now exists for all these people who WOULD be happy to have a label.

These two here >>8156227 >>8153084

Would go on identifying as the gender they were assigned at birth. It would be wrong to tell them that because someone ELSE thinks they fit the nonbinary, that they must now identify as nonbinary. That's dumb. But it would be nice if there was the label "nonbinary" for people who would like to be thought of that way. Just like some people who wear all black want to be called goth and some people who wear all black just want to wear all black but not have anyone call them anything.

>>8158263
Anyway, when it comes to this idea:
>I don't really feel like a man or woman - and this is a fact that requires legislation

I don't think we're quite at the point of requiring legislation for nonbinary people, but I do think a cultural shift is taking place where nonbinary people want to be recognized as a legitimate group of people. And my stance on that is what I have said before: Clearly these people who identify this way exist, and this is not something new, it exists in other cultures and time periods in various forms. So, it's something that doesn't really ever go away whether it is acknowledged or not.

I don't see any need for it to have a medical or scientific or psychological basis; it's a common phenomenon that some people don't follow gender roles, and that among the people who don't, some of them feel as though they are something other than man or woman. I'm not interested in discussing the biological/scientific basis of it if there even is one. To me it's largely a cultural thing that changes from time to time and I welcome that.

"Nonbinary" would just be an umbrella term for people who want to be under that umbrella. No requirements other than feeling you belong in that group. Since most people are cis, I don't see this category being flocked to by a bunch of people who it doesnt really fit--but I also don't see how that would be much of a problem if it did happen.

>>8158298
One more thing to tack on to this. I tend to think of people who want to consider themself nonbinary as generally having dysphoria (though not necessarily having it). I see them as trans people who don't follow gender roles or identify with a particular gender, so because they have dysphoria and feel no strong identification with male or female, their dysphoria is most relieved by being in the middle or by being something "other".

Someone can be cis and not identify with either male or female strongly, but because they are cis that means they don't experience dysphoria, so it's not really a painful experience for them and it's just a preference that that prefer not to follow gender roles and they like mixing masculine and feminine traits or being androgynous. It's not about alleviating dysphoria but about style combined with having no strong identification with male or female.

I hope this description makes sense.

>>8158327
Basically, I feel like there are cis people who don't feel strongly identified with either gender, and I feel like there are probably also trans people who feel that way. If you have dysphoria about your body and you don't feel identified to either gender then a mixed-gender or gender-neutral type of presentation is going to feel better for you than trying to conform to either side. You are going to feel most comfortable when people don't try to box you in to a certain side and you have a 3rd option open that sums up this circumstance, and in the world I'm picturing, that is a normalized thing and it is not a big deal and is not "special treatment" because it's just a third category that exists for a fairly common set of people.

If you don't have dysphoria and feel no identification with either side then you are just someone who can feel free to dress and act how you want. I think that's where alot of the disagreement comes in between people who want to be called nonbinary, versus people who are gender non-conforming but who don't feel any need to be considered something other than man or woman. You don't feel strongly identified, but you also don't feel dysphoria, so it doesn't feel bad to you when people categorize you as whichever gender they percieve you as. A third gender does not need to exist for you because you have no discomfort derived from dysphoria.

And IMO "dysphoria" too is just the modern western idea of this concept. Like I said, I don't have much interest in figuring out the root biological causes. To me it just seems clear that whatever causes it, it's a general type of person that exists, just like bisexual people are a general type of person even though everyone has a slightly different idea of what bisexuality actually is (such as things like the kinsey scale, or the idea of pansexuality, or the line between bi and bi-curious) and before there was a word for it, it was still a thing no matter what it is that causes it.

>>8158263
jesus man, thats a lot of paragraphs

as far that identifying as a goth vs being seen as a goth thing, Id say theres a sort of middle ground. you dont entirely get to decide what youre labeled as.

I mean if I look like a goth, people are gonna assume Im a goth and I cant be too upset at that.

I suppose to make it analogous to the non binary stuff itd be like people assuming an 'enby' id the gender they most resemble (likely their birth gender) even if a perdon looks totally androgynous people are more likely to assign a gender to them than assume they consider themselves 'other'

so I dont think I agree that your label is for you to decide (unless youre specifically trying to act like what people assume that label to be ofc)

from what youre saying I still cant find a reason why you think acting in ways not entirely in line with your sex's gender roles makes you another gender as opposed to just a 'sex' who doesnt feel they have to act as that sex tends to act all the time like >>8156227 and >>8153084 do

its the stressing the importance of your traits what I find narcissistic.

with the legislation point I was referencing the canadian law in which you would recieve a fine for not using a persons prefered pronouns (include ze and hir)

regardless I understand that people who dont identify with their gender roles exist and have existed for a long time, im even one of them, but I cant think of any reason why I would consider that a 3rd gender.

>>8150807
Gender reformists should leave.