"I feel like the other gender"

>>8044180
it's the shorthand way to describe what's going on with us when we don't want to break out the textbooks and such to explain dysphoria to a random person

>>8044180
What's wrong with that fox? Is he constipated?

>>8044226
But the textbook definition of dysphoria in the diagnostic manual is also pretty much unclear garbage.

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>>8044255
>the diagnostic manual is also pretty much unclear garbage
That goes without saying.

>>8044255
the textbooks i referred to were a metaphor for time and effort wasted on explaining things

In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

>A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
>A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
>A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play

>A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
>A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
(They made two symptoms out of one, that's convenient :D)

>A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
(Kek what does this even have to do with anything)

>A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
(Why does disliking your own anatomy tell you you want the one of the other gender?)

>A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

So literally a tomboy girl or a very effeminate, campy kid has dysphoria because they don't need to report disliking their anatomy or desire for male genitals, just liking spending time with the other sex and not liking stuff that most kids in their sex like.

A child wants to look more like the people she likes spending time with. You see kids out there who want to have other skin colors because they spend more time with kids of other races, and nobody's pushing for "transracial children's rights".

That's the textbook definition of dysphoria, and I still don't know what the hell you mean, so what does "feeling like a man/woman" mean?

>>8044280
Well, if transgender people are demanding recognition and rights, I think it's fair that they should be able to explain what "feeling like X sex" means.

>>8044285
I've transitioned, so I can tell you this: puberty, testosterone and secondary sexual characteristics made me uncomfortable, while removal of the testes and regular estrogen alleviated that discomfort. I could spend hours going over my life story, talking about the social aspects of dysphoria, but that's unnecessary. "Feels like X" is just a strawman you're building up and writing copy pasta talking points about. Why don't we talk about you. What game are you playing at; what's your stake in this; why do an insignificant number of people and their medical issues concern you?

>>8044285
yeah obviously but not 24/7, we are only human

>>8044304
That's great and all, but that is literally what this thread is asking.

>>8044281
well duh if you isolate them and question them separately it doesn't make sense, but all together it does point out to a brain in the wrong body for all intents and purposes

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>>8044314
Yeah I can see that

>>8044301
Not that guy but any tax payer has a stake in the potential spending of their tax dollars on your surgery.

It actually make more sense when you think of it in terms of we DON'T, feel like our current gender.

Contrast.

>>8044344
I understand that, but in most cases I've asked people seem to report or hint at them not feeling like their biological gender, and it feels odd to me that the standard solution then is to try out the other gender.

>>8044301
>puberty, testosterone and secondary sexual characteristics made me uncomfortable

Isn't this the majority of teenagers though?

>>8044351
Not really. We're all accustomed to the gender binary at a young age, so the "other" gender is kind of the only alternative to the gender we feel uncomfortable with.

The truth behind "I feel like X" is the heart of the whole "is gender and/or identity innate or a social construct" argument. I believe it's a mixture of both, and someone proclaiming that they "feel" like a gender that doesn't align with their birth sex, likely perceives an incongruence between their identity as recognized by their own consciousness and the social response of their environment to their expression of said identity;
i.e. a boy acts faggy and is told that's wrong/atypical, when internally, the boy is just doing what they feel is "natural"
That's a gross oversimplification, but hopefully that helps

>>8044463
>so the "other" gender is kind of the only alternative to the gender we feel uncomfortable with.

I don't know, it might be, but the problem is that by that definition you can simply push an argument of asking where that discomfort comes from. There's a bunch of faggy kids who love doing girl stuff and are flamy as all hell and aren't trans. The issue I have with the DSM criteria for dysphoria is that I personally knew many kids who would qualify to be diagnosed as gender dysphoric, and they're not. Also like I said above, the criteria are a mess.

I read some of the articles in the scientific literature. Zhou et al are particularly popular because they push the argument of the transgender brain, but I find their methodology flawed, their sample tiny, and their conclusions rushed by not factoring in the characteristics of their sample (that is, that the post-mortem studies of trans brain structures were done on trans people who had already undergone hormone treatment, and we've seen that hormone treatment in adulthood changes brain structures accordingly, so it's not conclusively a birth thing).

My point being that I don't think we know enough about gender dysphoria to see the statements and justifications we're seeing for it, and I disagree with the DSM's framing of gender dysphoria because it makes it entirely a "choice", especially in adults/teens, where you need only to report 2 out of 6 criteria to be dysphoric.

>>8044180
That you feel that female/male would be the right sex for you.

Your innate reaction is to want to take that "sex role", as in, somebody want to look feminine and may even feel competitive against other girls (but obviously lose, and therefore also lose their spirit, because good luck competing against them when you get on a male puberty)... Or to be guyish, and be a cool guy, that everyone thinks is alpha.

>>8044478

In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning. It lasts at least six months and is shown by at least two of the following:

You need even less as a teen or adult, just 2 out of 6.

>A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
>A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
(These two are either the same thing, or one doesn't mean you want the other gender's sex characteristics, so redundant)

>A strong desire to be of the other gender
>A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
(Again, the same thing)

>A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
>A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender
("Strong conviction" meaning whatever you want it to mean since it's self-identification, these two are essentially saying the same thing anyway)

So here I am, trying to understand dysphoria, and that's what the DSM-V has for me. I dunno, that really doesn't make me feel like we understand dysphoria, but rather that we take it for granted. That's why I'm asking for your specific explanations on what dysphoria feels like, because according to the DSM-V dysphoria can mean a number of different things depending on the combination of your reported "symptoms".

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>Gender is a social construct!
>I have gender dysphoria!

I think gender dysphoria has many true cases all over the world, but that number is much smaller than the media, virtue-signalers, and special snowflakes make it out to be.

>>8044500
>Communism is the best way to rule a country
>Every attempt at Communism has failed
See? I can also do that.

Quite the polar opposite of the two camps, and you get a contradiction.

>>8044478
>DSM
I mean, if that's the text you're focused on deconstructing, I'm right there with you. I'm MTF and I think the DSM is full of shit, especially the section relating to gender dysphoria. I also happen to agree that we don't know enough about it, HOWEVER... It's important that tolerance of it is taught so that more research and data collection can be conducted. It's all well and good to think scientific research is separate from political climate, but that's not the case. Research can't get off the ground if the people with the money think the whole concept of gender dysphoria is laughable/"muh degeneracy"

Although, I disagree with your premise that
>where you need only to report 2 out of 6 criteria to be dysphoric
Where exactly are all the people being handed professional gender dysphoria diagnoses like lollipops at the dentist? Consistent, persistent, insistent. Any diagnosis of gender dysphoria is predicated on a number of contextual factors parallel to the criteria you cited. It's a little obtuse of you to assume doctors are handing out rxs for titty skittles to every faggy kid that walks in their office that checks two of six boxes. Psychology is a little more nuanced than that, contrary to the sensational shit the media feeds to the masses. It's still a complex process to receive a professional diagnosis for gender dysphoria that's often fraught with careful concern and hesitation from some, if not all of the parties involved.

>>8044518
>Where exactly are all the people being handed professional gender dysphoria diagnoses like lollipops at the dentist?

I don't know, I'm not transgender, and I don't have the experience of going for a diagnosis, but if there's going to be an increasing stance that dysphoria is primarily about self-identification, and we're going to increasingly push for leniency for example in early transition (at an age where identity issues are a staple of ALL kids and teens), I feel like we're going to go down a slippery slope in which """real""" transgender people are going to have their actual issues muffled down by defining dysphoria as something dangerously close to a choice (without ever saying it's a choice because then that argument publicly dies), if I make any sense.

>>8044528
You are making sense, but you are dangerously close to having some kind of fucked up, radicalized perspective on the world. I don't know what your media diet is, but it needs to change.
>Dysphoria is about self-identification
Inasmuch as any mental illness is only as real as the sufferer perceives it to be
>""""""We're"""""" going to push for leniency for example in early transition
Who is we? Currently, the field of child psychology is pretty fucking careful about diagnosing gender dysphoria in children, and it's done with the full consent and understanding of the child, parents, and multiple medical professionals. You admitted you have no idea what it's actually like to receive a diagnosis for being gender dysphoria, and I can tell you your evident assumptions are incorrect in most cases. Sidebar, what do you think of loading kids up with Adderall for ADHD diagnoses? That shit is way more ubiquitous in child medicine, is often prescribed without the child's involvement, and is a much more dangerous drug than hormone inhibitors for behavior that could be explained away with "he had too much sugar". Yet nobody seems to give a shit about it. I wonder why. Certainly it has nothing to do with IDENTITY POLITICS.
>Slippery slope
Not trying to insult you, but it seems like you have a really elementary understanding of how psychology and its application in professional medical assessment and treatment is actually conducted. Wherever your understanding of gender dysphoria came from, be it the media, the DSM and Wikipedia summaries, or God forbid, testimony on this website, you would benefit from broader research if you truly want to understand this subject. Don't lose the curiosity and thirst for knowledge you clearly possess, but make the focus understanding rather than collecting ammunition for political arguments.

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Okay sighties, please explain, what does "seeing colours/shapes" mean anyway?

>>8044226
Holy shit get off your high horse.

>>8044285
>oh, you have OCD? explain to me what "needing to lick a light bulb in multiples of eight or else your mother will die," means.

We have doctors to explain this shit, it's well established by now, trannies don't gotta explain shit to some scrub on 4chan.

>>8044342
Shouldn't the main concern be mental health and effect? Like 98% of transitioners are happier and more productive (still not nearly as happy as cis people ofc)

>>8044363

You're missing the important second half of that sentence, anon. What normal teenage boy would enjoy having their testes removed and their body pumped full of estrogen?

>>8044486
>>8044281

>(These two are either the same thing, or one doesn't mean you want the other gender's sex characteristics, so redundant)
They're not the same thing. The fact that I don't like vanilla ice cream doesn't remotely mean I like chocolate ice cream by default. Maybe I hate both. And vice versa if I repot liking one, maybe I like both.

>>8044564
Shouldn't how your tax money is spent also be a concern? If a percentage of your money is being used for something, you have a stake in that. There are plenty of quantifiable diseases that affect less than 1% of the population, and they could have surgery that would help their medical issues instead of a feel-better surgery to lop your penis off or make your hips wider.

>>8044486
>So here I am, trying to understand dysphoria, and that's what the DSM-V has for me.
Congratulations, you're like every other armchair psychologist who thinks all he needs to understand something as complex as mental illness is a few bullet point terms that have been boiled down as a quick reference for highly educated professionals so that they don't need to read an encyclopaedia every time they need the gist of something on hand.

This is like reading one dishwasher manual and expecting to learn how to build the things. Trannies come with 3 screws, 2 bolts and an allen key, that's as far as the DSM'll get you.
Do you know how many different types of cancer WebMD will convince you that you have every time you've got a headache? Diagnostic lists are broad as fuck.

>>8044561

How is it being on a high horse to not want to drop everything for a random faggot to explain a complex, hard to explain/understand issue that even professionals don't completely understand yet?

>>8044553
>""""""We're"""""" going to push for leniency for example in early transition

Meaning "we" as in the general society, media and activists pushing for the normalization of child transition, particularly psychologists (I'm a psych student).

>Sidebar, what do you think of loading kids up with Adderall for ADHD diagnoses?

It's absolutely disgusting and pathologizing of many kids who probably actually don't have ADHD. I do give a shit about it, I've campaigned against it, and so have several of my professors, but it's a parent issue. They come into the office convinced that their kid has ADHD because it excuses lazy parenting.

Right, I'm going to "inb4 you're just a bad psychologist". I'm still just a student.

I'm just troubled because the current Psychology paradigm comes through overdiagnosing everything, and making the criteria more and more vague. No, I don't have professional experience yet in assessment, but the theoretical aspect of it is troublesome because it feels like it's an issue of "let's go with it until proven false".

>>8044585
>Congratulations, you're like every other armchair psychologist who thinks all he needs to understand something as complex as mental illness is a few bullet point terms.

That's why I'm here trying to ask you guys what the hell your reported experiences mean. I'm trying to be respectful here because like I said, I. Don't. Understand.

>>8044583
That 1% still get their surgery, retard.

Wouldn't it be better if rich people couldn't have tax free partys, and instead give that money to the people who need a life saving surgery?

>>8044585
The difference being that a dishwasher manual is objective, whereas the diagnosis of mental disorders and psych in general is subjective. The reality of it is that the person making the diagnosis is going to do what they can to judge if you really do have dysphoria, or depression, or bipolar based on your behavior and what you say you think and feel. A professionally licensed practitioner is still much more qualified than the average guy but as someone who works in that field let me tell you that there is much more guesswork than other areas.

Your example would be much more applicable to something like pneumonia or diabetes than a subjective disorder of the mind.

>>8044589
Good thing ADHD doesn't concern you then.

You're studying to become a psychologist, not a psychiatrist.
You're there to talk to people who have minor issues, you cannot prescribe any medication.

>>8044599
>You're studying to become a psychologist, not a psychiatrist.
Correct.

>You're there to talk to people who have minor issues, you cannot prescribe any medication.
Correct.

And yes, maybe I'm absolutely wrong, and I'm just pretty damn obtuse in my perceptions, but it doesn't sit well with me to push for stuff like diagnosis of children. But I'm sure you folks are more versed in trans literature than I am. What can I read to further my knowledge?

>>8044595
>I'm retarded for having a concern about where my tax dollars are spent
More of that 1% get their surgery if you didn't get your penis-chopping surgery or titty skittles subsidized. There are plenty of people who don't get actual medical help they need, and it would be better if people who would have their SRS subsidized had that money towards people with actual problems. Any surgery done on your body is less likely to pay dividends because you'll probably kill yourself soon anyway.

>>8044595
>That 1% still get their surgery, retard.
Lol what, no, they'll detansition long before that. Some cancer is misdiagnosed so should we refuse to give chemo?

>>8044589
Kudos on being a psych student
>Let's go with it until proven false
If I'm not mistaken, isn't this the entire field of medicine? Doing what works until we find something better? Current treatment options for sufferers of gender dysphoria seem to significantly reduce patient suffering. Until we find something else or learn better, what we're doing now will have to do.

Good to know your opinion on the ADHD thing. Imo, gender dysphoria is an infinitesimal issue compared to that and other concerns in the field of child psychology atm. At least tranny kids are complicit in the diagnosis and administration of treatment. I understand the other concerns you have, but the sooner milestones are reached in public acceptance, the more research can be done to ensure safe and appropriate treatment for sufferers of gender dysphoria. I'm not a user, but the same thing is happening with cannabis, right? It has a potentially wide range of health applications, but without public acceptance and policy to protect it, the research is sparse, limited, and insufficient. One step at a time, family.

>>8044607
It's not perfect, but I really enjoy Julia Serano's Whipping Girl. It's not completely free of sensationalism, but she's a professional geneticist and has solid theories about gender dysphoria that we're fascinating to read. Much more in-depth than anything offered here

>>8044607
Remember that you are studying to become a psychologist, and probably nobody else in this thread is. I get being humble so as not to trigger the trannies but oftentimes patients are the ones with the biggest biases misconceptions about their conditions.

>>8044614
>Imo, gender dysphoria is an infinitesimal issue compared to that and other concerns in the field of child psychology atm.

Agreed. If I had any say I'd tackle ADHD and the Autistic Spectrum first, but well, this is not the board for that.

>Current treatment options for sufferers of gender dysphoria seem to significantly reduce patient suffering.

I understand that, and well, this is hard to express without sounding like an utter bigot of course, but my issue isn't with trans people battling their dysphoria via hormones and surgery. If it works, that's fine. My issue (and this, I suppose, is a personal issue) is that I'm on the fence about whether or not a trans woman should be recognized in the same way as someone who was born biologically female. I know that that also raises the issue "well if you're never going to recognize them as their desired gender that's as if they never transitioned". But then I often fail at recognizing even the most passing transgender women as women. There's this Uncanny Valley thing that tells me that a MtF is not really female. Of course, this is my subjective experience, so idk.

>>8044630
>my issue isn't with trans people battling their dysphoria via hormones and surgery.

Meaning that I'm fine with you transitioning for your own self-image and happiness. I'm not so fine with impositions of the world being obligated to treat you as a woman.

>>8044630
I wouldn't worry too much about that last bit, duder. It's a case-by-case thing. If you care for and respect the specific individual in question, you're gonna have a hard time not recognizing them as the person they live as. If you don't know them and misgender them or something, big fucking whoop, we're used to it. If they make a show of it, just apologize and move on. It's not that difficult to live with a type of person that's a whopping .03% of the population. Just avoid them if you're that uncomfortable. That's how I deal with bigoted morons.

>>8044630
Different anon jumping in there, and I aint reading all that shit that came beforehand)

>I'm on the fence about whether or not a trans woman should be recognized in the same way as someone who was born biologically female
This doesn't really seem like a "should/shouldn't" thing. It's just about if you, as an individual, CAN recognise a trans woman in that way.
When I was a teenager, I literally thought transgender was just drag queens who took shit too far, just gay men who were REALLY into dressing up. I wasn't bigoted about it or anything, I figured "to each his own," but when I saw a trans woman I just saw a gay dude playing pretend, and I had no idea that ftms or transbians existed.

In the years since, after learning heaps about what transgender actually is, it's just an incidental reflex that I see trans people as their reassigned gender no matter how much they do or don't pass, I'd actually have to put in effort to see them as their biosex.
When you're exposed to something regularly for a long time it just becomes natural. If you're not capable of seeing trans women as women, that's not necessarily set in stone, and it's not necessary something you need to actively overcome either. It's not wrong or anything, it's just a reflection of your life experience up to now.
And as far as wider society's acceptance of trans women as women goes, that'll just come with time. Wasn't long ago people were disgusted by the mere thought of gays, now there's one in every sitcom. It's not really something that needs to be forced on anyone, times just change.

>>8044654
I'm not troubled by individuals, I'm more than happy to refer to you as your preferred pronouns, I'm not that kind of person. I'm more uneasy about legislation, still on the fence about that, I read good arguments on both sides.

>>8044610
>More of that 1% get their surgery if you didn't get your penis-chopping surgery or titty skittles subsidized.
No they wouldn't.

That money would instead go to tax cuts, and other things to make life "easier" for rich people, and making it even easier for companies to have "tax free company parties"

You're so deluded it's not even funny.

>>8044628
Transsexualism isn't a mental disorder... At least not once ICD 11 comes out.
In the countries that uses DSM, it's already ceased being one.

>>8044607
It's quite literally none of your concern.
You'll never work with somebody trans.

Study some animals sex related behavior, and neuro-science, if you want to learn more.

>>8044630
>is that I'm on the fence about whether or not a trans woman should be recognized in the same way as someone who was born biologically female.
What the actual fuck?

You're a like hardcore aspie, or a sociopath... And you're trying to become a psychologist?
Is the reason why you want to become a psychologist just so that you can understand yourself, and learn how to understand others in the simplest of ways?

OF FUCKING COURSE you'd recognize them the same way.
Are you also doubting if you should recognize a lesbian woman the same as a straight woman? Or a black woman the same as a white woman?

Please do the world a favor and drop out of your psychology studies.
People who cannot feel empathy, cannot think critically, and have retarded stereotypically and discriminatory ideas should never work with people.

>>8044583
>There are plenty of quantifiable diseases that affect less than 1% of the population, and they could have surgery that would help their medical issues

Are you implying that srs gets more tax funding than equally rare diseases? Cause you're wrong. Maybe in sociology because they're obsessed with identity politics, but not in medical research

>>8044707
>You're a like hardcore aspie, or a sociopath...
Proof?
>Is the reason why you want to become a psychologist just so that you can understand yourself, and learn how to understand others in the simplest of ways?
Nope.
>Are you also doubting if you should recognize a lesbian woman the same as a straight woman?
Nope. Strawman away.
>Or a black woman the same as a white woman?
Nope. Strawman number two.

>OF FUCKING COURSE you'd recognize them the same way.
And still it's an issue for a lot of us, many of whom are women. I guess we're all sociopaths or aspies?

I didn't start this thread centering it around being a Psychology student, that's just what I happen to study, that's why I didn't talk about it until the whole ADHD discussion was brought up.

But thanks for your understanding.

>>8044753
>strawman
Do you even know what a strawman is?

lesbian/trans/black/intersex etc, is the same thing.
What's next, you only consider women who've had at least 2 kids to be women (this is an ACTUAL strawman, you incompetent shit).

>>8044753
>And still it's an issue for a lot of us, many of whom are women. I guess we're all sociopaths or aspies?
And yes, you're still sociopaths.

Majority of the population are sociopaths, but have learned to fake empathy.
Just look at the african countries, they can rape and murder, and cheer on as people are raped and murdered, without it taking any toll on their conscience.

>>8044760
>Majority of the population are sociopaths, but have learned to fake empathy.
Pretty unhealthy way to about your life.

>Just look at the african countries, they can rape and murder, and cheer on as people are raped and murdered

I find it hard to take your word for it that I'm the sociopath and the discriminatory and stereotyped thinker when you reduced an entire continent to merry murderers and rapists.

>>8044707
Lesbians aren't the same as straight women and black women aren't the same as white women. If you didn't recognize them any differently then you wouldn't have words to distinguish between the two. Trans women are far beyond that because they are men. If you do not understand that then you delude yourself in regards to basic facts. You can treat them both as women, but a trans woman is not a biological woman as much as you'd like that to be the case.

>>8044757
Also you consider women who are biologically women to be actual women, instead of just presenting as such. When it comes down to making children with that person, that is an important distinction. But someone who "cannot feel empathy" wouldn't understand that I suppose.

>>8044768
You literally asked if you should recognize a trans woman the same as a cis woman, and now you pretend to not be a sociopath.

You ARE a sociopath, there's no question about it.

>when you reduced an entire continent to merry murderers and rapists.
Do you have any idea of what goes on there?
They aren't forced by society to be humane to each other. Some of them down there do feel empathy, but most of them show human nature.

Robbing a house or an apartment?
In africa, they don't just rob it, they kill anyone inside of it.

>>8044774
Trans women aren't men.
See, there's where your sociopathy is showing.

>Lesbians aren't the same as straight women and black women aren't the same as white women. If you didn't recognize them any differently then you wouldn't have words to distinguish between the two.
And you're also a complete bigot, good to know.

A sociopathic bigot is trying to become a psychologist, how lovely.

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>>8044782
I'm not that anon, I'm just calling you on your bullshit.
A lesbian is not the same as a straight woman because a straight woman is attracted to men, whereas a lesbian is attracted to women. They are two different categories of people, and it's not bigoted to recognize that.

>>8044786
And therefore you should recognize white straight women as simply women, but recognize black women as blacks, and lesbian women as simply lesbians, not as women.

Your severe aspergers is showing.

>>8044778
I meant to ask if we should give a trans women the absolute same legal status as biological women, and have legislation that punishes people who don't recognize them as women, based on what we know about gender dysphoria. English isn't my mothertongue, so I'm sorry if some nuance escapes me. I'm not claiming to have the answers, I'm only talking from a reserved position. You're telling me I'm wrong just because my opinion upsets you, I'm open to learning here.

>>8044795
>Your severe aspergers is showing.
please don't.
t. pro-trans aspie

>>8044795
I would recognize straight women as straight women, lesbians as lesbians, etc. A lesbian is still a woman, but they make up a much smaller subset of the population than straight women do, so we identify lesbians as such. If only their gender was important, you would just recognize them as women. There is a distinction that lesbians are lesbians, and that straight women are straight women, but that is only important in contexts where it is pertinent. Why does this trigger you so much?

>but recognize black women as blacks
You are the only one to say that here, as well as the only one to fling accusations of sociopathy and aspergers and talk about how the majority of people are sociopaths. I think that you are able to recognize that black women are different in the amount of melanin that they have in their skin, or is that bigoted?

Back to the point, you can treat a transwoman as a woman if you like in society in most cases, but even you must understand that they are of a different category of people than biological women in that they are unable to bear children, and they have male genetalia or artificially created imitations of vaginas whereas biological women have fully functioning baby-making equipment. To someone who looks to have children with a woman, this is an important distinction.

>>8044802
Ok then.
>Your severe lack of reading comprehension and complete lack of social competence is showing.

>>8044797
>I meant to ask if we should give a trans women the absolute same legal status as biological women
Why the fuck wouldn't you?
You'd have to be wanting to discriminate somebody to even ask this question to begin with.

Murder shouldn't count if the victim is trans? Rape shouldn't really count as rape if the victim is trans?
You're retarded, and you should NOT work with people. Get a nice job in robotics, or paper pushing, or even corp legal stuff.

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>>8044180

>>8044807
Women get a lot of health benefits based on the fact that they can and are expected to pursue bearing children at some point in life. It makes no sense to give these specific benefits to someone who categorically will never have children. Things like maternity leave that are designed to help a woman recover from childbirth.

I'm not the anon studying to be a psychologist btw, just the one continuing to call you on your bullshit.

>>8044807
>Murder shouldn't count if the victim is trans?
Of course it should, you psycho, I'm not saying that, but do people murder trans women because they're women or because they're trans?
>Rape shouldn't really count as rape if the victim is trans?
Again, not saying that you absolute lunatic. Is a trans woman getting raped because she's trans or because she's a woman?

>>8044813
You can't justify sexism by biological differences.

>>8044813
>Women get a lot of health benefits based on the fact that they can and are expected to pursue bearing children at some point in life.
So anorexic women (who never get their menstruation), infertile women, and intersex women, should also not have the same rights.

Ok.

>Things like maternity leave that are designed to help a woman recover from childbirth.
You think you can take out your maternity leave without having children.

Ok.

>>8044813
>>8044823
What rights are you two talking about?

Obviously maternity leave doesn't apply for anorexic, infertile and intersex women just like for trans women.

So I think there must be more rights based on health benefits that the first anon hasn't named but that she has in mind.

>>8044818
>Of course it should, you psycho, I'm not saying that
Except you've been saying the opposite.

>Is a trans woman getting raped because she's trans or because she's a woman?
What if it's because she's diabetic? Or fat?
Should diabetic or fat people not have the same rights as women?

Do you not realize how retarded you sound?

A hate crime is an added charge. If you rape or murder somebody because they're a woman, it's a hate crime, if you do it because the person is trans, it's a hate crime.

>>8044831
>What if it's because she's diabetic? Or fat?

The motive matters. If I kill you because you're trans and I'm a woman, it's a hate crime against trans people, not against women, because my motivation was hatred for trans people.

>>8044823
Trans"women" should not legally have all the legal rights such as maternity leave, because they are categorically unable to have children. 100% of trans women will never be able to bear children.
You say that I am arguing that these women should not have the rights to maternity leave, an argument that I did not make. Women as a whole can do this, this specific subset of women cannot. This specific subset of women end up not effectively having these rights because they only come into play when they have children. I'm not saying they shouldn't be available to an anorexic woman who finally eats something and has a kid, but a man who cuts off his balls will never have children. He will never be able to do this no matter how many hormones he takes.

>>8044821
tell me what part of that is sexist. The fact that women get benefits to encourage them to have kids? Why should a trans woman have the same benefits to encourage them to have children, if they will never have children?

>>8044836
There's added potential for hate crime for trans women...
Are you arguing that disabled, or deformed, cis women shouldn't be recognized the same as women?

Just like somebody who is disabled has something extra to be hate crimed by, doesn't mean they aren't women, and that they shouldn't be legally recognized the same as women.

You literally don't have an argument, you just want to discriminate against trans women.

>>8044843
Anorexic women don't suddenly start to become fertile just because they eat, if they were underweight enough, at an early enough age, they will never become fertile.

What you're saying is that infertile women should not be recognized as women.
They can never have maternal leave, because they simply can never have children, therefore they should not be recognized as women.

>Why should a trans woman have the same benefits to encourage them to have children, if they will never have children?
Why does it matter if they have right to maternity leave if they still can never actually take it out?
You're arguing a moot point.

Please consider killing yourself.
You're the stupidest person I've seen in a month, I don't even know if you're trolling, or just incredibly stupid.

>>8044843
>This specific subset of women end up not effectively having these rights because they only come into play when they have children.
Trans women can have children. With a woman, from banked sperm, adoption, surrogacy, etc.

>>8044853
They don't need to take time off before adopting a kid, because they don't actually have a physical need to...

>>8044856
Cis women who adopt kids shouldn't get maternity leave?

>>8044852
>what you are saying is that infertile women should not be recognized as women
this is a strawman.
Infertile women should not be recognized as fertile women. If you missed that and are thinking i said otherwise, then you again prove yourself to be deluded.

>>8044853
they will never bear those children to term, and the point of maternity leave is to give women time to recover from child birth and nurse their baby. You are thinking of paternity leave.

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>>8044844
And if you go for full legal recognition of trans women as biological women, you have literally this guy calling himself a "she" and defending that he's in fact a woman, and in several places you could have legal problems if you misgender "her".

WHICH FEMALE-ONLY RIGHTS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

>>8044863
That's not a trans woman, that's a man.

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>>8044868
Not according to "her".

>>8044863
She's beautiful, how could anyone be so bigoted as to recognize her otherwise.

>>8044873
He could never get a diagnoses, and he would never be able to change his legal gender.
Unless he actually lies about stuff (like that Lauren guy did, he should be heavily fined in the case of him changing his gender back, as that would prove he lied in order to change his legal documents).

>>8044607
You have legitimate autism, seek help

>>8044885
So the system is oppressing him and you talk liek that is the right thing to happen when he identifies as a woman? Is it not bigoted to refuse to recognize a transwoman as their stated gender just society doesn't see his presentation as feminine enough?

>>8044885
It not a lie though. If you identify as female then you identify as female.

>>8044894
He doesn't take hormones, and he doesn't care about his male sex characteristics.
You're not a trans woman until you transition, then before that you'd I guess simply possibly be trans.

>>8044907
He's a doing a "meme", or is completely socially incompetent and fell for the tumblr memes.

>>8044917
You don't get to decide whether someone is really dysphoric or not.

>>8044922
Ok, lets say he's dysphoric.
He's still not a trans woman, because he hasn't transitioned.

He's trans nothing, simply trans, in the case he's dysphoric.

>>8044917
Still, she identifies as female. If gender identity and not physical characteristics are what matter, she's trans, isn't she? Otherwise you're willingly misgendering her simply because she doesn't look like what you think a woman should look like.

>>8044924
She doesn't stop being a trans woman just because she isn't transitioning yet.

Transgender = When your porn consumption has consumed you.
>tfw porn fucked you

>>8044929
>>8044931
Repeating yourself as a "counter argument" isn't actually a counter argument.

If he doesn't transition he can't be a trans woman, that's what the woman part in trans woman means.
He's just dysphoric in the case he actually is dysphoric, but seeing he's pretty content with being a man, he's probably not dysphoric.

Somebody simply saying they're dysphoric doesn't mean they're dysphoric.
It's like trusting somebody saying they have cancer, when all physical evidence points towards that the person doesn't have cancer.

>>8044940
>If he doesn't transition he can't be a trans woman, that's what the woman part in trans woman means.
No it isn't though. The woman part means her gender identity is as a woman.

I'm a white kid who listened to gangsta rap when growing up. I didn't feel like a white person. I felt like a black boy trapped inside of a white boys body. Is this not dysphoria too? Am I trans-racist? Can I finally use the N-word?

>>8044947
Trans means going over to or change to, and if you never change anything, or going over to, you're actually a trans woman.
You have to make the changes to be a trans woman.

This is the last time I'm gong to repeat myself.

Now go back to /pol/
It's amazing how retarded you people can be.

>>8044940
>he's probably not dysphoric.
>Somebody simply saying they're dysphoric doesn't mean they're dysphoric.
With respect, screw you. You're not a doctor, you're not a psychiatrist, you don't get to decide whether somebody is "tru dysphoric".

Under the working definition of transgender, of course that bloke is transgender, he identifies with the female gender but choosing not to transition. Gender identity is not the same as gender expression.

>>8044964
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Someone is trans if they aren't cis. Someone isn't cis if they are dysphoric.

Therefore, she is a trans woman and your made up definitions of technical terms don't change anything.

>>8044976
>bloke
>he

>>8044964
You might not like it but that's how it is. Someone is trans if they say they are, this is the world you helped make. That big hairy guy is a woman if he says he is by that line of logic. Sorry you have to face up to the logical conclusion of your beliefs.

>>8045079
>Someone is trans if they say they are, this is the world you helped make.
You helped make it too, retard.

And no, that's not how it works.

>>8045115
>And no, that's not how it works.
So what, you carry a sign with you that reads "certified trans"? If this woman steps into a gym's showers and says she's transgender, under the current state of affairs of the whole gender identity system, she's a woman in a male's body.

>>8045115
You're wrong though >>8045000

>>8045127
He's not legally female.
And he doesn't have documentation to strengthen his case, he would not have any supporting evidence of being trans.

So no, he could not do that, if the gym sues him they'd win.

>>8045115
That is absolutely how it works. You identify as a female and you have dysphoria, now you are a woman. Then you can play it up for a psychologist and legally you have a diagnosis and you can work towards legally being a woman.

Again be mad if you like, but this is a consequence of letting people identify as whatever gender and giving it weight. To be logically consistent you have to respect that this person is a woman in a man's body, they just aren't legally recognized yet because the system doesn't like their presentation.
OR
The system doesn't recognize them so it's easy and comfortable for you to wave him off as not existing, at least until you realize that the system didn't recognize anyone as trans until very recently and as such if the system is what defines being trans as the case is being made for here >>8045138 there has never been a trans person before the system became more progressive.

>>8045138
Kek, iirc in around 20 U.S. States you can change your birth certificate without undergoing SRS.

>>8045138
>He's not legally female.
If Lauren Southern is legally male (she is) then Danielle is legally female or just hasn't jumped through the hoops to change her documentation yet.

dread, depression, anxiety, and lots of dick / drugs

>>8045160
Lauren Southern changed her documents through fraud, lying and twisting things to a doctor.
Hopefully the state takes action against her, but that's pretty unlikely.

>>8045159
So?
You still need to take hormones.

>>8045167
Nope, you need a professional to sign this:

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/vr/gendermarker.pdf

No mention of having issued hormones, just that they recognize your gender IDENTITY.

it's really easy to change your name and gender marker here in canada- especially in ontario and british columbia

i entirely doubt lauren southern 'lied' or 'committed fraud' to have it done. if my doctor were to write his letter for my gender marker change, it would be a letter of like 150 characters and not that much substance. they just want the second vetting from a psychologist / GP / therapist so that a billion non-binary / not actually trans retard people aren't changing their gender markers and clogging up the system. that is literally all it is. and it's perfectly acceptable for lauren southern to make a political statement and show the changes to a law as a journalist.

she most likely told her GP 'hey i want to change my gender marker for a video / political statement because i'm a journalist- can you do that for me?'

and then he wrote the letter because there's no legal ramifications on his part for doing it.

>>8045195
>i entirely doubt lauren southern 'lied' or 'committed fraud' to have it done.
You're entirely correct. It's on video and she didn't have to lie at all.

For someone who is actually dysphoric like Danielle Muscato it would be even easier.

>>8045167
Too fucking bad m8, she is male by legal standards whether you like it or not. She's just a litmus of how stupid this is as a concept. The mental gymnastics are great though.
>that's not a woman, looks like a man
>well, if the gym sued they'd win yeah because it's not like he's taking hormones or anything
>so what if Lauren Southern was able to change her gender legally, you still need to take hormones!
just waiting for
>well even if she didn't have to take hormones it was wrong for the doc to do so this doesn't count!

Face it m8, letting guys identify as girls is fucking retarded for this reason and you can't cherrypick while remaining logically consistent.

>>8045167
>Hopefully the state takes action against her,
What for?

"You are convicted of failing to be TruTrans according to anon >>8045167 and dishonestly attempting to lose your right to maternity leave. We sentence you to..."
...to what exactly?

>>8045195
OP is quite fucking obviously not from Canada.

Their first language is not English.

So I was a sociopath for asking about the potential troubles in legislating the realm of transgender people and recognizing them as women, and now when I show you the actual current legality of gender identity and the implications it has, you show that you didn't know what I was talking about.

>>8045215
>letting guys identify as girls is fucking retarded for this reason
Just take away sexist laws that privilege women.

>>8045215
OP is not Canadian.
So how is anything of what you've said related to this thread?

Absolutely fucking nothing.

>>8045227
OP is not Canadian.

Show me how you can so easily change your legal documents in Europe, since that's likely where OP is from.

I wish mods put more effort into this board, so you got the ban you deserve for shit posting, and going completely off topic.

>>8045244
It's also easy in many places of the US, and increasingly in more parts of the world, without needing hormones.

>>8045244
This thread is so far derailed away from the OP that posts are topical by chance. The argument I'm having with that anon has no bearing on the OP, so thanks for stating the obvious.

>>8045256
>>8045257
Then you drove it off topic.

STOP DERAILING THREADS.
You did this completely knowingly, you should receive a permanent ban from 4chan.

If you want to shitpost you go to /b/, it's the ONLY board where shitposting is allowed.

>>8045250
In Germany you need to report dysphoria for at least 3 years. Nothing more.

>>8045260
>/b/ is the ONLY board where shitposting is allowed
>this sly attempt to further derail the thread, possibly derailing it back on the rails
I can respect that

>>8045263
"Yes doctor, it's been three years since I first got dysphoria."

>>8045266
Well, it's not that simple, those 3 years of dysphoria are under medical supervision, but you don't need to take hormones.

In Ireland it's just self-determined, too, you really don't need absolutely anything to change your birth certificate.

>>8045273
Denmark, Malta and Norway don't need anything either to change your birth certificate's sex, and Sweden is on the way to do the same.

>>8045263
In Germany you need to live full time for a year before you can even get hormones.
After that, you most likely need to continue to live full time for a year before you can have the possibility to change, you may also be forced to have SRS.

>>8045277
Pretty sure you need SRS to change your legal documents in Norway and Denmark
To get SRS you need to have been on hormones (unless there's a reason you can't), and then you can apply to get to change your gender marker.

>>8045273
"Doctor, I have gender dysphoria. See you in three years for my ID change."

>>8045299

Denmark:
http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/09/03/denmark-passes-groundbreaking-gender-self-determination-law

Norway:
http://tgeu.org/norway-lgr/

Both are self-determined, and more countries are pushing for the same.

>>8045308
So you don't need SRS, you still have to go through "courts", to be able to change your gender.

>>8044583
Bitch and how do you know where your money has gone to huh? for all you know it could have went to fixing roads or some shit like that. you don't know exactly where your tax money has gone to so shut the fuck up.

Also us trannies pay taxes as well so go fuck yourself.

>>8045273
>>8045277
Then anyone can change their gender markers for scholarships or quotas or whatever?

>>8045360
You pay like none of the taxes considering you're rarely fucking employed and are like .00001% of the population.
And yeah that's why the tax system as a whole is fucking retarded, your shit gets collected and the government(inefficiently) decides where it goes. But if my money is being taken and potentially being used for something retarded like snippy feel-good surgery, I'm gonna recognize it as bullshit like a lot of the other shit the government does with the money it takes from me at gunpoint.

>>8045380
Move to fucking Zimbabwe then.

>>8045380
>if my money

If you don't know for certain then stop your bitching and go back to playing with yourself.
Your getting yourself worked up all over nothing that effects you in anyway what so ever.

>>8045408
Well I do know for certain that if a portion of tax dollars are going to the surgery and they are part of the pool formed from partly my own tax dollars, then they do go towards it on a level.
Not mad but it's a dumb use of money, certainly not the first.

>>8045364
Well that's the question now isn't it? I don't know, but it might become an increasing reality, I mean, for all intents and purposes if you change your gender marker you're legally that gender.

>>8044583
You do realize that medical researchers aren't all drawn from the same pool of people with the same exact expertise, right? This is like complaining about diabetes research because you think all of the diabetes experts should focus on cancer because fuck fat people.

This arbitrary system of triage you're suggesting, based on zero medical knowledge, is fucking stupid. You don't understand how research works, and you don't understand how medical specializations work.

>>8045380
>you're like .00001% of the population
>the government paying for poor peoples' SRS is bleeding too much tax revenue
>MUH LIBERTY

Dude shut the fuck up. You sound like a 19-year-old college libertarian.

>>8045429
Not every tranny gets "the surgery" and most of us pay for it ourselves with the money we worked for.

Still it seems like your getting yourself worked up all over nothing (which is not healthy).

>>8044351
>and it feels odd to me that the standard solution then is to try out the other gender.

Trying out the other gender recieves less violence and ridicule and letting yourself be in between, or "neither". If I could just be in between without people harassing and questioning me I would. But people don't allow that because they think youre a snowflake at best and will make fun of you and hate you and you will be seen as a freak. So you're forced to commit to whichever "side" is closer to what you want, when in reality t might just be that you have 1 or 2 body parts or features that cause you dysphoria and if those were gotten rid of youd be happier but people will still constantly be asking you what you are and which box to check and cant accept that you exist on a middle ground. To be honest I am glad for all these "snowflake" kids obscuring gendr lines because its not a big risk for them to do so and hopefully one day it will make people care less about these things

>>8045515
>But people don't allow that because they think youre a snowflake at best and will make fun of you and hate you and you will be seen as a freak. So you're forced to commit to whichever "side" is closer to what you want,
It's shameful that trans people are part of this form of transphobia too.

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I don't get the "muh taxes" argument. The US isn't a single-payer system. No one but trannies are paying for their own procedures. I paid for my orchi in cash. And I buy my meds. So why are ya'll up in my business?

>>8045731
I think that was just a /pol/ack Sneky Snek needing to vent about GOVURMUNT THEFT.

>>8044180
Wanting to be dominated and fucked up the ass like a bitch.

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>>8044180
>this thread
>again

Motherfucker why does it matter?

If i want a fucking pachinko, i should be able to have one. It is just a cosmetic surgery like rhinoplasty (which i dont see you angry over).

It isn't like it will affect your dumb cishet whiteboi ass anyways.

>>8045744
>implying throwing money down the drain is a good thing