Transgender issues?

>>8043157
>LGBT say about desistance
Howdy. You are going to need to break things down a bit more if you want to get useful information.
Desist
>to cease, as from some action or proceeding; stop.


You need to give a context or something. What do we think about restraining orders? Or what are you asking?

>>8043157
>What does LGBT say about desistance? I'm 100% serious here.
What does that even mean? And what's the case

>>8043157
desistance is irrelevant because even though gnc kids desist if they don't transition, they don't detransition if they do transition. so it's safe to transition them.

delaying puberty also increases their iq later in life.

>>8043157
You mean like people who identify as trans / have gender dysphoria end up having it go away and living their life as their birth sex? I've heard evidence saying both it's high and low, and the stuff saying that trans desistance is low seems the more credible of the two, but I'd suggest taking any evidence with a grain of salt, and focusing in particular on two things:

1. Did the people in question previously actually have a significant degree of gender nonconformity, or was it just the normal level of experimentation that people go through while growing up?
2. Make sure the people reported to have desisted actually did so, i.e. make sure to rule out the possibilities that they just dropped out of a study for unspecified reasons, or that they continued to have dysphoria but stopped recieving treatment for financial and/or social reasons.

>>8043194
>>8043202
By desistance, I mean the concept that minors who are experiencing gender disphoria may have a tendency to have the condition resolve itself into the child becoming comfortable in the body they are born into, and over time become gay or bisexual. The scientific literature is all over the place on this issue and I'm trying to investigate it.

>>8043239
Well it didn't happen that way for me. Dysphoria only got worse with time.

>>8043228
>desistance is irrelevant because even though gnc kids desist if they don't transition, they don't detransition if they do transition. so it's safe to transition them.
I don't understand this comment. Clarify please?

>>8043157
>What does LGBT say
>What does lesbian gay bisexual transgender say

>>8043239
gender dysphoria and sexual orientation are separate and don't really have anything to do with each other. it doesn't really make sense for dysphoria to "resolve" into homosexuality.

I think that any information regarding the issue is pointless if we figure out what causes dysphoria in the first place.

>>8043270
the stats are something like 50% desistance. half of gender non-conforming children grow up gender conforming and cis if not given hormone blockers. the other half become dysphoric. this is used to claim blockers are wrong since they will be used on cis kids.

however, among gender non-conforming kids who get blockers, almost 100% of them are happy having transitioned.

the 'cis' 50% weren't really cis.

>>8043258
Of course it didn't, you're on /lgbt/ because you're among the minors who didn't desist.

File: 20020111.jpg (75KB, 571x254px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 571x254px

>>8043239
The general rule that I think most people here agree about gender dysphoria is that it becomes gradually worse with time no matter what you do.

Detransitioning is a thing though, but in my opinion that's mostly a fenomenom that happens because the individual gets scared, loses hope, it wasn't what they expected or they've been forced.

But desistance, as in actually becoming okay with your birth gender after suffering gender dysphoria? I really never even heard of something like that besides people purposely forcing themselves to repress it because they believe they don't have a chance of passing or because it's too hard.

>>8043230
>You mean like people who identify as trans / have gender dysphoria end up having it go away and living their life as their birth sex? I've heard evidence saying both it's high and low, and the stuff saying that trans desistance is low seems the more credible of the two, but I'd suggest taking any evidence with a grain of salt, and focusing in particular on two things:
>1. Did the people in question previously actually have a significant degree of gender nonconformity, or was it just the normal level of experimentation that people go through while growing up?
>2. Make sure the people reported to have desisted actually did so, i.e. make sure to rule out the possibilities that they just dropped out of a study for unspecified reasons, or that they continued to have dysphoria but stopped recieving treatment for financial and/or social reasons.
I'm looking at the evidence, but everyone (well, over 95% of people) online, even journalists, have an agenda and it's hard to distill the facts.

You've hit the nail on the head, anon. The question in criticism of the studies that have been done seems to be "were the participants actually legitimately diagnosed with gender dysphoria?" And there are legitimate concerns over the published studies, I've seen that.

>>8043363
>actually legitimately diagnosed with gender dysphoria
>believing "professional" diagnoses mean shit

>>8043295
>the 'cis' 50% weren't really cis.
OK, I see what you're saying and I'm not disagreeing. Where do you get your statistics?

>>8043157
WHAT'S THE CASE

>>8043239
Basically as a kid, they get to a certain point and repress it. There is a lot of psychology that says if it occurs extra early (like sub 8) they might grow out of it around 11-12. Past that point if they are still experiencing dysphoria I think it will always be genuine.

Genuine disphoria never goes away. People repress it for a variety of life circumstances, but the late transitoners you see who get bad results are typically people who repressed their identity until it eventually overwhelmed them. It is an inescapable curse. The only half way decent method of helping cope is transition, and the sooner you start that the better the likelyhood you will have a any quality of life as an adult.

In your context. Don't fuck the kid in question your dealing with over. It is honestly safer to give them access to HRT and let them decide to detransition on their own, than to withhold HRT from them because of your morals/legal president.

Missing the window to transition early is something MANY people here regret and are forced to live with.

>>8043376
UPPERCASE

>>8043307
>But desistance, as in actually becoming okay with your birth gender after suffering gender dysphoria? I really never even heard of something like that besides people purposely forcing themselves to repress it because they believe they don't have a chance of passing or because it's too hard.
Thanks for that input. I'm not here to start argument but look for input on the issue for my legal case.

From what I'm seeing, a significant portion of pre adolescent children who are gender-nonconforming or are actually diagnosed with gender dysphoria, a substantial number of them (over 50%) will "grow into" their gay or bisexual identities over time.

The legal issue here is whether a prepubescent child should have the right to determine if they can take hormone blockers. This issue is becoming a landmine in Canada law.

>>8043370
Thank you for literally contributing nothing.

>>8043403
>being a gullible idiot

>>8043376
Obviously, I can't discuss the particulars of the case. There's a reason I'm here and not on tumblr.

>>8043412
It's anonymous. No one will be able to know that the custody battle between parents over whether to transition their kid was the same custody battle as someone posted on 4chan.

>>8043397
>gender-nonconforming or are actually diagnosed with gender dysphoria, a substantial number of them (over 50%) will "grow into" their gay or bisexual identities over time.
I think your are confusing the point again.

Here is a handy ready bake oven tier metaphor:

Sexual Orientation is who you go to bed WITH
Gender is who you go to bed AS

Being "gender non-conforming" has no direct link to being gay or bi. Amoung the transgender population the distribution of orientation is the same as gender cis people who don't experience dysphoria.

You also need to be more specific with your language as "Gender non-conforming" modernly means they don't conform to the gender binary. (Ie. Male or Female.) Thus the individual is more commonly called "Non-Binary", "gender queer" or "Gender Non-Binary".

(In the old sense "gender non conforming" as in someone who doesn't associate with their assigned birth gender, is better described as just "transgender"

>>8043239
For exactly that reason all children should be put on puberty blockers until they're old enough to make an informed decision.

>>8043381
>In your context. Don't fuck the kid in question your dealing with over. It is honestly safer to give them access to HRT and let them decide to detransition on their own, than to withhold HRT from them because of your morals/legal president.
That's the question, Anon. If a child, or early teen, wants to take hormone blockers to delay puberty with a view to taking cross-sex hormones later and doing the physical transition after that, when does the child's rights to gender identity override the parent's rights to religious instruction of the child or to decide upon non-life-threatening medical treatment? This is a big legal issue and it's hitting the courts as we speak, which is why I'm asking.

>>8043442
>Amoung the transgender population the distribution of orientation is the same as gender cis people who don't experience dysphoria.
lolwut

>>8043397
>The legal issue here is whether a prepubescent child should have the right to determine if they can take hormone blockers. This issue is becoming a landmine in Canada law.

This is what you needed to lead with. There are plenty threads about this in the archives you can sift through as well.

The general consensus here is that 100% yes blockers are a non-issue. Then when they are older they can make a choice to take HRT. This is the least damaging path, as it only stalls the natural puberty and gives them a basis to go either way.

>>8043239
>>8043157
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext
It isn't common. The Zucker studies fraudulently passed off children that didn't meet the DSM GD criteria as GD and claimed he cured them. The studies weren't controlled and Zucker has been disgraced and fired for his fraud.

>>8043454
>when does the child's rights to gender identity override the parent's rights to religious instruction of the child or to decide upon non-life-threatening medical treatment?
In Canada when does the child's rights override the parent's rights to have him circumcised?

It's the same question.

>>8043454
>child's rights to gender identity override the parent's rights to religious instruction of the child or to decide upon non-life-threatening medical treatment

As long as we are dealing with the western world. (Canada I believe in this case) Children are not property of the adult. Many adults have conflicting views with the child who wants to transition because of attachment to the children's birth gender.

A person's body is fundamentally their only and main possession. Given the recent progress with the Canadian transgender human rights movement, the right to transition is and should be considered a basic human right.

I can actually provide you with the draft of the recommended amendment to the Canadian human right's charter that I had a hand in creating for Nova Scotia/the maratimes if you are interested.

>>8043454
Considering how many trans people commit suicide due to late unsuccessful transition, calling it non life threatening is plain dishonest. And preventing transition is nothing but child abuse, religious beliefs can't justify it.

>>8043483
>Children are not property of the adult.
>>8043479

>>8043453
I hope you're not serious.

>>8043525
Do you have a reason for your disagreement?

>>8043496
This. Few cis people really understand the EXTREME mental strain and anguish that living in a body that doesn't conform to your mental state can cause.

Your daily life is tainted by it. Going through puberty as a transgender person is a literal horror story, as your watch your body, even your voice change in ways that appall you. Many turn to drugs etc. You can't escape your own skin. Mirriors become your own worst nightmare. You don't want to be in photos, and avoid socialization the list goes on.

All while facing a crushing hopelessness that it will only get worse. Trans gender people don't spend thousands on facial hair removal for nothing you know. Having it come back in is like the clock striking midnight and having Cinderella's coach turn back into a pumpkin, and dress back to rags.

Supporting the children is the only compassionate choice.

>>8043471
>n Canada when does the child's rights override the part's rights to have him circumcised?
>It's the same question.
It's a similar question. In Canada, we live in a society where the parent's rights to determine medical procedures includes a parental right to determine whether to circumcise. I don't disagree with you, but a baby can't say "I don't want to be circumcised". So my question is related but similar.
Let's boil it down to a simple question: at what age can a child determine their own medical treatments? I'm not talking about a child refusing medical treatment like chemo, I'm talking about a minor having the right to override their parents' authority regarding hormone blockers to delay puberty?

>>8043483
I'm very interested in this exact sort of thing, can you link?

>>8043528
He's a canuck anon, ignore everything he spouts.

>>8043552
>age can a child determine their own medical treatments?
You are trying to assign a digital value to an organic being. I understand that is your job, however for that reason you need to aim lower to accommodate the variation. The central problem with this question is that children undergo puberty at different times, and the age has to be before puberty starts to have the most value.
I would be inclined to say 10+, but some girls undergo puberty even then. I would say 9 would be the safest but also as mentioned before the younger you shoot for the age the harder it will be to get it to pass.

Honestly arbitrary age limits are the wrong way to view the problem. A standardized assessment by a trained WPATH professional to assess readiness is your best bet. (If you needed an age for that too lets say 8 and up.) The WPATH professional administers the assessment and determines if they child is mature enough mentally to make the decision in their professional opinion.

>>8043483
Why are parents allowed to snip the dicks of their kids without their consent yet they can't decide if their kid should be female or male?

>>8043442
>Being "gender non-conforming" has no direct link to being gay or bi. Amoung the transgender population the distribution of orientation is the same as gender cis people who don't experience dysphoria.
This isn't true

>>8043552
>a baby can't say "I don't want to be circumcised".
>I'm talking about a minor having the right to override their parents' authority regarding hormone blockers to delay puberty?
all parents should be free to david reimer their son if he can't say no?

>>8043552
>Let's boil it down to a simple question: at what age can a child determine their own medical treatments?

The legal age to consent to sexual intercourse.

>>8043496
>Considering how many trans people commit suicide due to late unsuccessful transition, calling it non life threatening is plain dishonest. And preventing transition is nothing but child abuse, religious beliefs can't justify it.
I'm not saying that transgenderism and dysphoria don't exist. They clearly do.

However, the literature isn't clear on the subject, except for the acknowledged fact that many (the % is debatable) minors who identify as the opposite sex will eventually let it go and often become gay or bisexual as they grow older and more confident in their own sexual preferances, which younger children are clearly not.

Whether anyone likes it or not, a lot of children and prepubescents undergo desistance when they come to understand that their gender non-conformity was an early expression of their homosexuality or bisexuality. I'm just citing the research I've looked at.

And I'm not taking away from the legitimate gender dysmorphics who eventually engage in cross-sex hormone therapy and eventually surgery.

>>8043562
https://anonfile.com/VfBez6b7b8/Youth_Project_Report_CHRC_Roundtable_on_Gender_Identity_and_Gender_Expression__2_.docx

>>8043459
>Then when they are older they can make a choice to take HRT. This is the least damaging path, as it only stalls the natural puberty and gives them a basis to go either way.
But are there any legitimate studies on the long term effect of hormone blocking to delay puberty?

>>8043462
>The Zucker studies fraudulently passed off children that didn't meet the DSM GD criteria as GD and claimed he cured them. The studies weren't controlled and Zucker has been disgraced and fired for his fraud.
I've looked at the Zucker issue. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that he was let go because his approach wasn't conforming with the prevailing politics surrounding the issue.

I don't want to argue about Zucker. Anyone who has a strong opinion one way or the other isn't likely to be swayed from their opinion by 4chan.

>>8043600
In Canada that is 16. So until he's 16 you think parents should be able to have their son circumcised against his wishes?

>>8043634
No I think the opposite. Parent's should have no say whatsoever about the child's sexual orientation and/or their genitals and the child should only be allowed to make the decision themselves at 16.

>>8043496
>Considering how many trans people commit suicide due to late unsuccessful transition, calling it non life threatening is plain dishonest. And preventing transition is nothing but child abuse, religious beliefs can't justify it.
Look Anon, people commit suicide for a lot of reasons, most of which I believe are stupid.

Let's not say that transitioning is always a life threatening issue. If we go that far, then everything that minors obsess about is a life threatening issue.

>>8043528
If you seriously belive that all children should be on hormone blockers until they themselves decide on their gender, well you're entitled to that opinion but it doesn't help my inquiry.

>>8043374
Not that anon, but

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

GNC kids who undergo blockers and hormone treatments have rates of depression and anxiety comparable to cis kids their age.

>>8043530
>Supporting the children is the only compassionate choice.
Yes, many children are legitimately exercising an understandable preference to socially present as the opposite gender. But as I've said elsewhere here and will again, I don't believe that all minor children should be allowed to determine their own medical procedures which will affect them into adulthood.

Some children surely should be permitted to do so, I don't argue that. But isn't there a tumblr effect going on here as well?

Don't children who are simply expressing early onset homosexuality deserve more than social justice warriors insisting that they can change their own bodies long term before they child even understands the issues? I'm playing devil's advocate here.

>>8043620
Not that I am aware of. However, there are very few studies on the majority of transgender issues. You are dealing with something that is very qualitative. However, the damage of denying or gatekeeping health services and transition for transgender people has concrete impacts. Depression, Anxiety, Poor social adaption (which leads to the unemployment and homelessness statistics), and suicide a all very real.

Again you need to see the delaying of puberty as just that. A delay. The vast majority of transpeople will either of off blockers and resume natural puberty, or seek HRT and transition. Eitherway delaying puberty is far less likely to cause long term damage than letting their voice drop, or hips and breasts developing causing the individual to need to see additional surgery later in life to bring in line with their true gender.

I know you might see a lot of what we are saying as opinionated fluff. I can promise you it comes from seeing the suffereing and sadness that is everywhere in the transgender community to a scale that the majority of the world will legitimately never know.

You are potentially in the position to make a huge impact for one, or many people's lives. I need to do what I can to drive home the level of responsibility you are holding, and the people's actual destinies you can change!

>Let's not say that transitioning is always a life threatening issue. If we go that far, then everything that minors obsess about is a life threatening issue.

This coming November 20th regardless of the outcome of your case you should attend one of the gatherings for Transgender Day of Remembrance. Please don't down play an issue because you don't understand it or have personal experience with it.

People are murdered for transitioning. Sometimes even by their families, friends, or lovers. They also DO kill themselves because of how much of an impact this has on their lives.

>>8043582
>Honestly arbitrary age limits are the wrong way to view the problem. A standardized assessment by a trained WPATH professional to assess readiness is your best bet. (If you needed an age for that too lets say 8 and up.) The WPATH professional administers the assessment and determines if they child is mature enough mentally to make the decision in their professional opinion.
I agree with that in principle, Anon. But then someone other than the parents is making the determination for the child? This is the sticky issue.

It makes no sense for there to be a "cut off" age. But we live in a society of laws and of average justice. We have cut off ages for voting, for drinking alcohol, for consent to sex, and for refusing medical treatment.

>>8043620
I don't have any on hand but I'm sure they exist somewhere if you look for them, after all hormone blockers have been used for decades to treat other medical issues like early puberty, not just gender dysphoria.

As far as I'm aware personally though, the only major side effect is that you become taller because the growth plates in your bones take longer to fuse.

>>8043600
>Let's boil it down to a simple question: at what age can a child determine their own medical treatments?
>The legal age to consent to sexual intercourse.
I've heard that argument made, and there is some logic to it.
However, there are exceptions to sexual intercourse at age 16 under the law in Canada, particularly if the partner is within 2 years of age.
Tough situations make bad law. But unless we are going to assign every kid who has a blog on Tumblr their own social worker to determine how serious the kid is about their expressed preferences, we need a law with a cut off age. Right or wrong. Don't we?

>>8043604
Thanks, I've bookmarked that and will give it serious consideration. This is exactly the kind of thing I came to this board to find.

>>8043670
>Don't children who are simply expressing early onset homosexuality deserve more than social justice warriors insisting that they can change their own bodies long term before they child even understands the issues?
Throughout this entire thread you have falsely conflated sexual orientation with gender. You need to stop and get a clearer picture. Go check out GayGen. See if you think those people played with barbies and wanted to wear mommy's make up when they were young. (note non-of these things actually equate to being trans. That is the pop stereotype you see in trans documentaries etc)

The point is sexuality doesn't make you want to be the opposite gender. At any age.

>But isn't there a tumblr effect going on here as well?

This is primarily for late teen FTM's who want to present as non binary because they hold too rigid an ideal of what femininity is. They think if they want to wear masc clothes and do stereotypically masc things/don't like dresses they are non binary or trans.

They are a vocal minority of the trans people out there. The reason for the spike in transpeople coming out is the internet, education, and public acceptance of something people typically repressed.

>insisting that they can change their own bodies long term before they child even understands the issues
We still aren't talking about HRT access we are talking about blockers. The point of blockers is to STOP changes. Not to create them. The effects are not long term either. Even if the child misses the window for their natural puberty they can get HRT to kick start it and continue as their birth gender.

Anyway I can tell you hold a pretty conservative view on all this. I think what you need to do is honestly go talk with trans people in person and ask them what puberty for them was like. Ask them about friends they lost to suicide. Ask them if they could have had early access to blockers would they have wanted them, and how things would be different for them now.

>>8043670
>I don't believe that all minor children should be allowed to determine their own medical procedures which will affect them into adulthood.
Why? Since you need to be professionally assessed to have access to puberty blockers as a kid, where's the harm? It's not like a child one day says 'I want to be a girl' and he's immediately no-questions-asked put on blockers and HRT.

>>8043680
You make some excellent points here Anon, and I'm not dismissing the emotional turmoil that many young people go through on this issue.

But you have to admit there are some children who are claiming symptoms of gender dysphoria for a variety of reasons. Perhaps as an early onset of homosexuality. Perhaps because they've learned from tumblr that this will get them attention. Perhaps because they simply feel uncomfortable in their own bodies because of what society tells them that boys or girls should do and look like. Separating them out is the problem when it comes to the courts.

>>8043525
I hope you're not serious

>>8043688
>As far as I'm aware personally though, the only major side effect is that you become taller because the growth plates in your bones take longer to fuse.
Have you got any sources Anon? I've seen reports of bone disease and osteoporosis, as well as potential for infertility in adulthood.

And before I answer everyone on this thread who says that "hormone blockers only delay puberty", someone give me some evidence. If I take hormone blockers until I'm 25 and then stop will I then go through puberty and at age 30 perhaps be physically the same as anyone else of my birth gender who didn't take hormone blockers? I seriously doubt it, but I need legitimate science here rather than conjecture.

>>8043728
>Anyway I can tell you hold a pretty conservative view on all this. I think what you need to do is honestly go talk with trans people in person and ask them what puberty for them was like. Ask them about friends they lost to suicide. Ask them if they could have had early access to blockers would they have wanted them, and how things would be different for them now.
That's a thoughtful reply, Anon.
I'm not personally conservative. I consider myself pretty far left of center on social issues. But as a lawyer, I have to argue my client's position. And I have a duty to the law as well, to assist it's development in a progressive manner.

If I were seriously against transgenderism, I would't have posted here. There are plenty of solid and logical arguments against it in fact and in law. But society is changing and the law has to change too, I understand that.

Even if I talk to a hundred trans minors, that's not evidence. I'm here looking for evidence, for referrals to websites or legitimate studies. I do appreciate the disparate viewpoints, I really do. My own opinions aren't at stake here. I have a unique opportunity to shape the law and I want to include legitimate considerations of all stripes here. It doesn't help me to be told that a lot of trans minors feel very deeply and seriously about the issue; there are also a lot of people who actually can vote who have strong opinions. I'm not siding with anyone in particular other than my client, which is my job.

>>8043770
>Why? Since you need to be professionally assessed to have access to puberty blockers as a kid, where's the harm? It's not like a child one day says 'I want to be a girl' and he's immediately no-questions-asked put on blockers and HRT.
Ah, you've sussed out the deeper issue Anon. What if the child welfare authorities say that the parents are neglecting the child by not acceding to the child's expressed transgenderism?

At what point can/should the state intervene and force the parents to respect the child's gender identity? When the child reaches a certain age? When the child is diagnosed by a professional? These are the larger issues.

>>8043850
Probably when the parents start abusing the child in some other way.

The adults are still the legal guardian until the state sees fit to remove that role from them.

If not letting your child becomes considered abuse the state will have to start actually caring about post puberty transitioners stuck in their parents households and i don't see that coming.

In this case there is no specific law or ruling yet that i am aware of that has linked obstruction of childhood transition as a form of abuse. The law should in this case err on leaving the parents in charge and therefore whether or not the child can transition is ultimately up to them.

Having aaid that what does it matter if the child takes blockers from the onset of puberty until an age in which they can actually be believed as truely transgender? The child can always just resume puberty any time.

>>8043929
>Having aaid that what does it matter if the child takes blockers from the onset of puberty until an age in which they can actually be believed as truely transgender? The child can always just resume puberty any time.
That's the issue which parents need education on.
If I'm a parent and my son is prepubescent and identifies as a female, let's assume that this is fine by me and I assume that my son is simply gender non-conforming and may well become a gay man when he reaches adulthood. Let's assume I'm fine with that.

Let's say that my son tells me he wants to start taking hormone blockers with a view towards cross sex hormone therapy, and then undergoing a physical transformation including surgery. Let's say I'm opposed to this.

Should it matter if my son is six, or eight, or ten, or twelve, or fourteen? What if my child is born female, would that be different?

And if I don't permit my minor child to go through with hormone treatments, am I abusing or neglecting my child? And thus should the state intervene and either put my child in foster care or seek a court order that I go along with the child's wishes?

>>8043728
>>8043670
/gaygen/ here, definitely didn't play with dollies or my mom's makeup.

homosexuality is definitely NOT equal to being trans. I have never had a passing thought of wanting to be a woman, I have never felt that my body was wrong, etc.

>>8043979
Well first of all it shouldn't matter at all before puberty since there's no need for puberty-blockers.

If denying your child who understands the risks of transition and consents is child abuse at 11 then it would also have to be at 16.

No court has ever ruled that its child abuse to deny your child transition so far. Therefore the precedent legally is that it is not abuse. It would take a major ruling or a law to change this.

You're the 'lawyer' you should know this.

Feels don't mean anything legally.

>>8043979
Whats an important 'lawyer' defending a ground breaking transgender case doing up at 2:30 am on a week day anyways. Could it be you're really just a law enthusiast?

>>8044024
>Feels don't mean anything legally
The point both you and the lawFag are missing is that, "feels" are what is shaping this whole thing. If you want to dismiss every reality that trans people face, that wasn't featured in a major study then you might as well pretend we don't exist/there is no problem. Laws of this nature exist to protect people. In this case the people at risk/needing protecting are the children, who's very identity is being handed over to others that may or may not understand their personal struggles. If a child rated their torment as a 9/10 on a scale that was logged by a scientist that doesn't make it any more or less valid than the child experiencing similar things who did not take part in the study.

If you want to advance this type of case you need to be open to first hand qualitative evidence.

>>8043239
>scientific literature
be careful. A major Canadian group published some seriously flawed data. They counted kids as desisting when in fact they had dropped out of the study before that could be determined. Lots also has been refuted, yet some persist to publish refuted theories, and data. When a child is given a proper DSM 5 Gender Dysphoria or earlier DSM 4 Gender Identity Disorder diagnosis, the likelihood of desisting from their cross sex gender is less than a few percent.

When reviewing the studies you also need to look at if it was properly peer reviewed. Lots that has been published making it look like desisting is likely for children is not peer reviewed.

Note: Sex is what is between the legs (male/female/intersex).
Gender is the internal identity (masculine/feminine/agender/non binary).
Orientation is which sex you want to go to bed with(gay, lesbian. bisexual, straight).

http://transascity.org/science/

There are some studies summarize and raw you can check out. Draw your own conclusions.

>>8043595
>>>8043442
>>Being "gender non-conforming" has no direct link to being gay or bi. Amoung the transgender population the distribution of orientation is the same as gender cis people who don't experience dysphoria.
>This isn't true
the distribution is different than with cis, but one still can't tell what the orientation will be from the gender identity.

>>8043602
>Whether anyone likes it or not, a lot of children and prepubescents undergo desistance when they come to understand that their gender non-conformity was an early expression of their homosexuality or bisexuality. I'm just citing the research I've looked at.
this is why you put them on blockers until they know.

>>8043620
there are studies on early transition that show the subjects are basically normal except for reproductive capacity.

>>8043647
the attempted suicide rate for trassexuals is over 40%. Right up there with high functioning autistic persons. I think the actual suicide rate for high functioning autistic persons is over 4%, so that may be good for comparison.

>>8043805
>And before I answer everyone on this thread who says that "hormone blockers only delay puberty", someone give me some evidence. If I take hormone blockers until I'm 25 and then stop will I then go through puberty and at age 30 perhaps be physically the same as anyone else of my birth gender who didn't take hormone blockers? I seriously doubt it, but I need legitimate science here rather than conjecture.
You wopn't find science for that because no doctor would keep somebody on blockers that long. They usually take transsexual kids off them somewhere from 13 to 16 years of age, with the age dropping over the years.

Get in contact with the Dutch researchers who are working with transgender youths over decades. Their research clearly shows early transition is better than later transition.

I feel like hormone blockers might just be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the "foot in the door" to convince a child that they are in fact transgender. Once you've started taking them, particularly at a time in which you're shaping your identity pretty hard, of course you're going to continue with your desire to transition. I have a fundamental problem with this, because literally every pre-teen and early teen has an identity crisis in those years. If you give them puberty blockers and feed the dysphoric narrative you're going to convince 99.95% of early hormone blocker takers just because you're shaping their identity through them.

I'm unconvinced, really, on this chicken and egg situation.

>>8044454
the kids who get the blockers are the ones who persisted in their identity for at least 6 to 12 months.

>>8044464
Yes, and the DSM criteria for dysphoria are tremendously broad and unclear.

>>8044437
Actually there might be some scientific data on this. Blockers are sometimes given to young women that are in a vegitative state to help keep them small and easier to manage without menses.

Not sure if there's many cases of them being taken off blockers though since they don't ever recover.

>>8044467
You don't know the language. It's fairly clear to me, but then I've lived with a psychologist.

>>8045781
Then why can't you give an interpretation of the DSM that isn't vague bullshit?

>>8046107
I'm responsible enough not to interpret it when I could be wrong.

>>8046190
Unlike every "professional"

>>8046211
It's not my area of training.

>>8046228
There is no supernatural gift a psychology qualification gives someone to interpret the DSM.

You sound like like a priest defending why only he can interpret scripture.

>>8043295
>By desistance, I mean the concept that minors who are experiencing gender disphoria may have a tendency to have the condition resolve itself into the child becoming comfortable in the body they are born into, and over time become gay or bisexual.
By what age?
I ask because this kinda happened to me as puberty went along, and despite never wanting to show up on pictures and avoiding mirrors and engaging in borderline behavior, I surely presented myself super proud to be masc.

Turns out it was just turbo repression as a coping mechanism and it all came crashing down by the time I turned 19 and now I can only hope it is not too late to get some boobs and hips, so yeah.