This is a serious question: I was in my college sociology class

Your teacher is a retarded. I would also say you are missing something, but all the same, you are more right than your teacher.

>>8028641
>Identity is a progressive process that develops who you are via experience, hence possessing biological traits that differ from another human being would generate a different identity than another human being who experiences the same environment.
This is correct but the remainder is your post does not follow from it. Environment causes certain people to develop an identity or gender different from the one socially assigned to their sex.

You're right in part but your teacher is more right than you are.

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>>8028641
Why not both?

>>8028661

I would consider that satisfactory if there were certain behaviors exhibited by (actual) trans persons that aligns with a severe mental illness, such as:
High neuroticism, high anxiety, extensive self harm, high suicide rate that can only in part be accounted for by the social environment alone (it's higher than that of jews during the holocaust)

my main gripe is that males and females exhibit different behaviors and proclivities from birth (men more towards quantitative and spacial reasoning, women more towards social interaction and risk aversion) and wholly different physical characteristics. Knowing that, how could those not play a role in the development of one's identity to the point of determinism? especially when the deviation from those biologically ascribed behaviors is so small that it is not indicative of a trend? Feminine and masculine behaviors are near universal regardless of the environment, across culture, and across geographical lines.

>>8028718
>to the point of determinism
How could anything play a role to that point?

>especially when the deviation from those biologically ascribed behaviors is so small that it is not indicative of a trend? Feminine and masculine behaviors are near universal regardless of the environment, across culture, and across geographical lines.
What feminine and masculine behaviors are you referring to?

Many changes trans people make to how they live, like language, dress, etc are entirely culture-dependent, so to say that some gendered behaviors are universal is to give a huge number of others over to being socially chosen by individuals, trans and cis.

>>8028748
>Many changes trans people make to how they live, like language, dress, etc are entirely culture-dependent, so to say that some gendered behaviors are universal is to give a huge number of others over to being socially chosen by individuals, trans and cis.

I agree, many behaviors are not biologically determined, but would those be one's that we attribute to being gendered behavior? I think we disagree and/or misunderstand each other due to operating on different definitions.

> How could anything play a role to that point?

define what you mean by role. As I saw it, some roles are not determined wholly by culture. A role is not something dependent on culture. If they are, it is the culture ascribing a behavior with a role that fits withing the confines of that culture, aligning the role/behavior to other concepts withing the role. I suppose I am miring myself in minutiae, but to restate. Would roles just be behaviors given meaning within a social context?

>>8028840
What feminine and masculine behaviors were you referring to?

>>8028641
>medical treatment
And we get that. It's called hormones. :^)

>>8028641
well you're the one who decided to take sociology, the gender studies of STEM, so idk what to tell you here buddy

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>>8028921

Biological traits that lead to major intrinsic differences between male and female behavior:

Women:
female risk aversion
female behavior caused by a lower average pain threshold
female inclination towards care-taking (as shown by non-socialized females from multiple species of ape and socialized species of ape.
higher average fine motor skills
woman's inclination towards emotional behavior
woman's geared slightly more toward language.
woman having a higher stress tolerance than men
Women more likely to suffer from mood disorders
Woman's brains geared slightly more toward language.
higher core body temperature

Men:
inclination towards spacial abilities
inclination towards mathematics
inclination towards neurological disorders.
higher pain threshold
higher muscle mass

Behavior:
Women:
not physically aggressive
risk averse
hypergamy
maternal behavior
hypersensitive to environments (ever have a female coworker complain about the AC? that's biological)
nurturance
sexual passivity (in the face of higher male aggression on average)

Men:
low display of emotion
aggressive
tough-skinned
strong
active
aggressive

What I'm getting at is that biology determines behavioral "bedrock" and concepts of gendered and sexual behavior developed around those. roles and other such things developed around those things to fit survival needs (one of the reasons homosexuality was maligned was because such behavior discouraged procreation in an era when circumstances after the fall of Rome could not afford a decline in births or the spread of disease. it also served as a way for Christianity to separate itself from the herd of pagan traditions of sex.

(pic in no way related, I don't frequent the board much but I was confused by the sex/gender dichotomy so I figured I would ask)

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>>8028641
>I balked at this

Well unbalk.
It's true.

>I think I know better than my teacher

kids always think they know everything.
and then they grow up and realize that they know nothing.

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>>8029240

1. don't be a dick, I'm just here to ask some questuions

2. I don't think I know better than my teachers, though I have proven this particular one in class several times. I'm an undergrad at college, don't call me a kid please, your denying my identity as an adult (this is what I'm getting at here and where I take issue and wish to ask questions about from a community that may know more than your average demented conflict theory addled college professor. seriously he rambles about literal nonsense in the middle of class and the textbook really drank the kool-aid on how it talks about certain concepts. (literally talks about "white privilege" rather than "racial privilege, Islamophobia etc.)

textbook here:
(https://d3bxy9euw4e147.cloudfront.net/oscms-prodcms/media/documents/IntroductionToSociology2e-LR.pdf

my major question, if I truly need to restate it in concise terms is:
In what way is identity ("the fact of being who or what a person or thing is") wholly separate from biology and it's effects on the the experiences and behaviors that go into forming that identity. (as I attempted to show above)

when I apply the biology/identity dichotomy to anything else it sounds insane. For example, if I assert that an aspect of my identity is that I lack a right arm, but i obviously have my right arm, that still abides by the above model that my teacher displayed and would be considered correct, I am an amputee that has all of his appendages intact. This is obvious hogwash, so what am I missing in regards to the separation of biology and gender that makes it not hogwash?

>>8029433

*geh*

> I have proven this particular one *wrong*

pardon that error

>>8029433
>im an undergrad taking sociology please take me seriously

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>>8029454

I'm just asking questions, I never asked to take the class, I'm a history and economics double major, it was either this or bloody gender studies for my "community well-being" requirement.

>>8029215
>Le stereotypes & common cultural myths

Let me guess, you are autistic as well and have difficulties finding a gf. Might I suggest a board where you'd feel at home, my pham? >>>/r9k/

>>8029168

I would be fine with that but hormone treatment's don't seem to solve the problem as far as neurosis and suicide goes (the suicides that are not obviously due to the person's social environment but due to severe mental issues, hormonal imbalances, etc.)

>>8028641
You are right. Furthermore, as far as we can tell, the universe is simply particles behaving how they must behave and there is no free will or chance whatsoever. If we fully understood the behavior of subatomic particles we could predict the future down to the smallest detail.

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Why are soc undergrads always such snobby sanctimonious little shits?

Is it biology or just upbringing?

>>8029500
>hormone treatment's don't seem to solve the problem as far as neurosis and suicide goes
Have something to back it up?

>>8029486
>I'm a history and economics double major please take me seriously

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>>8029500
> as far as suicide goes
You would kill yourself too if you were on hormones for years yet still looked like a literal man in a dress. However, for us passers hormones were like a gift sent from heaven because we never grew up looking masculine which means living a long comfortable life free of "neurosis." I will most likely even outlive you, bud. :^)
Correlation =/= causation, my man.

>>8028641
It's the nature v nurture argument, and in the case of personality, nurture definitely has more impact, although nature is a part of it (which you wouldn't learn in a sociology class, you learn that in a psych or bio class you fucking meme student). In any case, whether you believe nature is or isn't involved in the molding of a personality, it doesn't make a lick of difference. A sociology class would be all about the effects of nurture anyway.

tldr; your teacher is more right than you, sit the fuck down, you're a college student.

>>8029515
Probably that one Swedish study on post-op MtFs that people continue to misunderstand and misrepresent.

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>>8029498
Nope, closest thing I got is a job that prevents me from meeting with friends more often

>>8029514
not a sociology undergrad, in what way am I sanctimonious?

>>8029515
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

correlation =/= equal causation, and if these folks continued to not be operated on, some scientists assume that it could have been worse. Seeing that the morbidity is roughly the same for pre- and post-op, I think that I could be clinical depression, with the stress of going through the surgeries could be the most major factor of the increase. same goes with the hormone treatments, especially hormone blockers in MTF cases, which has correlated with an increase in anxiety and developing depression, especially in teens.

>>8029551
Fair enough about both points, testosterone has been linked to shorter lifespans.

>>8029644
>A sociology class would be all about the effects of nurture anyway.

True. though I'm not a sociology student.

> fucking meme student

how dare you assume my memetic status.

> your teacher is more right than you, sit the fuck down, you're a college student.

literally the whole point of going to a school is to learn stuff and ask questions, I am merely performing the latter, sheesh.

>>8029663
See the above, I would never believe that douche-nozzle.

>>8028718
>my main gripe is that males and females exhibit different behaviors and proclivities from birth (men more towards quantitative and spacial reasoning, women more towards social interaction and risk aversion)

Lots of trans people exhibit the behaviors common to the opposite gender prior to any treatments or even the realization that they're trans, though. I'm a transwomen, and I've always been extremely cautious and I try my best to avoid risks. I've had friends and my boyfriend get annoyed with me because of it often making me a killjoy.

>>8029725
The fact you didn't resort to ad hominem yet tells me you're cool, kid.

>>8029725
>https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Those are lifetime suicide attempt rates, though. Lifetime of course meaning it can preceed any treatments.

>especially hormone blockers in MTF cases, which has correlated with an increase in anxiety and developing depression, especially in teens.

Hormone treatments and other elements of medical transition are actually hugely effective on minors.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

Now of course, maybe things will get bad as they age. But this seems unlikely to me given that most trans people can cite having issues with depression and anxiety caused by gender dysphoria at least as young as their teens, if not from as young as 4-5.

It could instead mean that older trans people (and the majority of them in studies such as yours or the infamous swedish study) have high rates of suicide because of their permanently masculine or feminine features that cannot be changed with surgery or hormonal treatments, either because of the personal dysphoria they cause or the discrimination they face in society due to possessing them.

Early transitioners generally don't have these problems, and as a result display far lower rates of suicide. Do note that even among older transitioners, the relatively young ones (ie late teens to late 20s) displayed lower rates of suicide compared to the very late ones (30+), likely either due to having more permanently masculine or feminine features due to aging, or because they're more likely to face discrimination in their day to day lives since they're peers are mostly older people as well who are less accepting of transpeople.

>>8028641
The soft sciences tend to have mushy definitions that can fit the speculative theories you have to make when you can't repeat your experiments.

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>>8029837

I know, in that particular argument I was trying to display how biological functions act in a deterministic fashion that leads to "gendered" behaviors, showing that biology has at least some effect on identity as a whole, not just gender. thanks for the info though.

>>8029799

Thanks, I honestly don't know why I'm drawing such ire, though I suppose my initial question was a bit scant on particulars.

>>8029913
>Those are lifetime suicide attempt rates, though. Lifetime of course meaning it can precede any treatments.

Oh, alright then thanks, I've yet to take a proper course in statistics, nothing but history classes up till now, though gender theory is now being used for historical narratives in really weird places now too. Bloody everywhere (for no reason I can ascertain). Though I suppose art history makes sense, but I digress.

I agree, the aging thing might have a thing to do with it, especially when various hormone releasing systems related to sexual processes begin to shut down, but, as I possess not evidence at hand, I will not belabor that assumption. Also, thanks for the links, I'll look into them.

>>8029930
Its One of the major reasons I came here to hear some first handers who could better explain it than some (literally) senile old codger who spent half of the semester teaching the class the bloody syllabus (not even kidding). Tumblr is just too buried in ideology to have a conversation with trans folk without being called various insults or being blocked, at least in my experience. I heard on /his/ that you fellows are level headed and reasonable so I figured I would give it a shot.

(pic related, greetings from /his/!)

>>8028641
>trans folk need medical treatment, not people telling them to indulge in their various mental problems that create the vicious dysphoria that often contributes to depression and suicide.
What?

This is contradictory.

You sound like a retard who wishes he was smart... I guess an aspie?

>>8029725
What's your major meme student?

>>8030066
>I honestly don't know why I'm drawing such ire

This board gets like 2 or 3 threads a day from the ignorant pseudo-intellectuals trying to label transpeople as schizophrenics in need of therapy and antipsychotics or other things rather than transition. People just assumed you're like that. You're from /his/, so to make an analogy, the daily "why are transpeople so suicidal threads?" on /lgbt/ are pretty much viewed the same way as the daily "why did Africa have no civilizations?" threads on /his/. Or at least those were a problem back when I regularly browsed the board, no idea if they're still an annoyance or not.

You seem like a mostly cool person, though. You actually tried to learn from the evidence given to you rather than just spouting the same shit and ignoring whatever doesn't fit your viewpoint like the OPs of most of these kinds of threads.

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>>8030098

Nope, just a confused fellow asking questions. my major issue or at least what I'm confused about is why changing the body does anything to effect an issue that stems from the mind. This perspective came from ignorance and a lack of tact on my part and I admit my ignorance on this front. I just thought that if gender dysphoria is a disconnect between how one views oneself and what one actually is, the body should not be changed to fit those perceptions, but to change the mind to fit the body. As I don't know how involved nature and nurture are. I spoke beyond my knowledge on the subject and I apologize. I saw trans the same way I saw the trans-abled which in their case results in people cutting off their own arms or blinding themselves, thus, I had the idea that the best way to resolve the dysphoria would be psychological treatment and not transition. I beg your pardon.

>>8030138

Already said so earlier, but to restate I'm double majoring in History and Economics. both compliment each other, and the latter can actually make me money if the former does not.

>>8030161

Ah, the equivalent of a Nietzsche thread. All anger is forgiven then, I had not idea I was courting such cancer.

here, have another meme.

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I suppose you guys get this question a lot, but what do you think of the whole Jordan Peterson debacle?

>>8030304
Generally people are ok with him or supportive.

Most of the board hate the people who want to be adressed with pronouns like zhe or xim or whatever. The trans people here just want to be accepted as normal and as members of their preferred gender. The snowflakes who want weird pronouns like that are seen as distracting from that and ruin the image of legitimate trans people in other's views.

>>8030424

ah, as I thought, thanks for the info, all of you!

>>8030245
You always change the body to fit the person, changing a mind and it's neurology to fit a body would be completely inhumane.

>>8029240
Depends on the teacher, especially in a post secondary environment. Quality control for teachers beyond high school is laughable at best.

Your professor is talking out her ass and needs to consult someone from the actual sciences, because the current status of most of the research in Experimental Psychology/Neuroscience at the moment is 'fuck if we know, and no one's paying for it to be studied so we probably won't know soon', because a lot of the previous research has been driven by experimenter biases and self-fulfilling prophecies. There were findings at one point that African-Americans were inferior, pre-existing biases are a huge problem in research like this and psychology has a long, long history of beating up on every minority ever and then eventually admitting they were wrong.

A lot of the problem with the general public reading research like this is that they don't understand how little 'statistically significant difference' means in this context. By the way people react, you'd think you'd have said "all women are bad at math with rare exceptions because of their biology" not "out of the 100 kids at this college we sampled, women were slightly more likely to score 1 or 2 points lower on a test, we can only speculate indirectly why this is, and there's still a 1/20 chance this finding was a statistical fluke and no one's going to replicate it because replications don't get published". And the problem with "physical brain differences" thing, even though we do know they exist, is that the brain changes physically with experience, and this starts as soon as kids are born (probably even in the womb, but that's not relevant for gender differences) because children's brains are extremely plastic, and children don't exist in a vacuum-- they're surrounded by their culture and accompanying gender roles at all times.

(cont)

>>8033294
So depending on your theoretical viewpoint (I'm pretty strongly in the empiricist camp, which is reflected in this post), you can argue that the brain is hard-wired for certain gender behaviors or it's an entirely blank slate that develops strictly from outside input, and because there's enough evidence to support two different viewpoints, most people agree that the truth is probably some combination of the two. Nativism ("the brain is hardwired") was the dominant view for a long time, so a lot of the findings that the public has heard about regarding fixed brain differences also aren't that recent. And then there's the matter of a lot of them coming through popsci books, all of which are biased because the scientist who wrote them had opinions, sometimes very strong ones that aren't exactly mainstream.

Even aside from brain plasticity, findings like "women are worse at math on average" have issues like priming and self-fufilling prophecy-- Asian-Americans also perform consistently better than any other ethnic group in math, and laypeople aren't saying that one's because of biology. And a lot of the 'men have spacial intelligence because they hunted back in the day' has the problem of being a just-so story, just like 90% of theories about how things evolved.

(cont)

>>8033300
We know there are definitely anatomical brain differences by gender, but what's important to note about that is that brains have a HUGE amount of INDIVIDUAL variation that no one talks about, and there's FAR more differences in brains of two random people of the same gender than between male and female brains on average, to the point that the pretty brain pictures you see on the news are averages on top of averages on top of averages, warped on top of a "standard brain" (Talairach brain) that we use as a template, as we pray that none of the people we recruited for the experiment had some kind of freak brain. So brain differences between genders are also, practically speaking, not as important as they sound. Also, to be blunt, the public thinks we know way more about the brain than we do, and that it's way, way simpler than it is. Even very specific brain regions have been linked to lots of different things (and until TMS became a thing it was hard to directly prove they were responsible for a thing because we couldn't exactly lobodomize people to see what went offline), so saying why any given brain region is different by gender takes a lot of assumption as to what behavioral difference this would map to.

PLUS, Neuroscience findings are really fucking inconsistent because it's stupidly expensive to run neuroimaging experiments, so they're working with ridiculously small sample sizes that are seriously screwed up by the above variation and no one is replicating their stuff because replications don't get published.

(cont)

>>8033306
So the short answer is, 'it's probably some combination of biology and life experience, the exact ratio of which depends on what theoretical viewpoint you ascribe to, and because there are five million things that make studying it difficult, we really know shit-all for sure'.

Much like everyone's an economist in election season, everyone's a fucking experimental psychologist all of a sudden when you bring up brain differences by gender and it pisses me right the fuck off. I'm sure everyone's tired of actual brain scientist anon at this point, but I can't sit by and let this many people talk out their ass with mostly-incorrect and out of context fragments of findings that they picked up at a cocktail party.

>>8028641
>My teacher promptly stated that identity (what you are personally and culturally) is wholly independent from biology.
>Identity
Now, if we define sex as the biological aspect and gender as the cultural/social aspect, as I believe it is the dictionary definition but fuck me, this is semi true.
What you personally identify with is irrelevant, as gender is a social function with meaning socially, not individually, assigned. Saying you are a girl and trying to enforce your pronouns while being bearded will convince no one that you are female; saying you are a boy and tring to enforce your pronouncs while having huge tits will convince no one you are male.
However, suppose you have an mtf/ftm that passes flawlessly - even without any need of pronoun enforcement, she/he are going to be assigned the gender they fit with the most, and not only that, trying to acess spaces compatible with their sex (biological and objective) rather than with their gender (social and subjective) is probably going to result in a lot of weird, awkward, shitty stuff. Thus, by all practical purposes - and gender is a pratical thing, as opposed to sex - they have become of the genders of their identity.

The thing gets weirder when we consider, lets say, passing crossplayers and crossdressers, that don't actually even identify as a gender different from their biology - but will still be assigned their opposite genders, socially, if they pass, because their self identity is literally meaningless for society and gender is a social function.

Thus, well, yes, gender is kinda wholly independent from biology. Technically. Which doesn't change the fact that most people won't even bother trying to shift their gender around and most people who do bother do so because of biological reasons, probably.
Which means that, while in theory independent, in practice it tends to be mostly correlated.

I guess. It makes sense in my head and seems to fit reality.

>>8028661
If you're saying transgenderism is caused strictly by environment then that's not even remotely a thing that's know for sure. Another thing in the 'we know shit all about that' camp, although there's one finding that dysphoria as an experience exists on a neurological level similar to phantom limb syndrome.

>>8028718
That is not even close to from birth, and by the time you can test something like that reliably children have been saturated in their culture.

>>8029433
>In what way is identity ("the fact of being who or what a person or thing is") wholly separate from biology and it's effects on the the experiences and behaviors that go into forming that identity. (as I attempted to show above)

My personal guess would be 'because identity arises from consciousness, it's independent of biology in itself. But, it's impossible to tell how much any behavioral difference arising from biology has affected the social construct of gender (which in turn affects the person's experience, and then in turn their conscious identity), because we really don't know how much of those observed behavioral differences arise from the effects of culture in the first place.'

>>8030161
but why did Africa have no civilizations?

>>8035525
>>but why did Africa have no civilizations?
It had many, in fact.

biology is complex and not fully understood especially the shit going on in our heads. idiots understand concepts they can hold like their genitals

>>8033425
>If you're saying transgenderism is caused strictly by environment then that's not even remotely a thing that's know for sure.
You have your work cut out if you say that to everyone who states the reverse as a fact.

>>8028641
Just as a warning, I am not currently studying this topic. I'll try not to make myself appear too moronic (if it's not too late already).

From what I've observed/read/learnt, our biology does have an effect on our identity BUT this ties directly into how we have been brought up (nurture).

Just as a VERY basic example: If you were going to have a baby boy, what colour would you paint their bedroom?
There is no right/wrong answer but this choice WILL affect the baby. These tiny things stem from how society/culture views them. A very stereotypical colour for a girl is pink. Why pink? It used to be for boys in the past anyway.

If you were to raise a baby boy "like a girl" (as in, how society views a girl SHOULD be) is there a point when that boy will think they are a girl?

Biologically, no, but they may begin to identify as a girl.

Basically, mainly through they are raised and what they experience, a child will form their personal identity however they want.

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>>8028641
your teacher is incorrect because transsexuals would not exist if that was true. Research about what sex and gender is stopped after the race for discovering it was concluded at what idiots call sex chromosomes and we just decided that was it there was nothing else. Turns out sex is alot more complex than that and we are just now realizing that in the present day so alot of professors still teach the generic bs about what sex and gender is when really research has mainly been halted ever since that discovery and 2nd wave feminism pushed that dichotomy extremely hard back in the 50's which has fucked over transsexuals for decades and is the direct result as to why research for better tech to transition and all these older hons transitioning these days being cringey as fuck which only reflects how fucking cringe society thinks we are currently because of idiots fucking everything up back then. Their damage is still rippling but hopefully society will start to slowly understand what sex really is. Just a few decades ago it was illegal to transition.

It's ironic that we teach the scientific method in schools and yet once we hear something as supposed "fact" we see it that way and if it is challenged all hell breaks loose. We are dealing with idiots who got upset and pissed about pluto not being considered a planet anymore so I highly doubt they will understand how sex and gender really works. Just transition pass and be stealth it's the best way to a happy life if you are an actual transsexual in modern day society right now. I like to think hundreds of years from now people will understand and finally feel sorry for how extremely mistreated we were today and in the past.

I hope you well OP and don't get upset about idiots you are better than them. Stay strong. I like to think being born this way is just playing life on extreme difficulty.

>>8036475
>your teacher is incorrect because transsexuals would not exist if that was true.
How does that follow?

>Just a few decades ago it was illegal to transition.
In which countries?

>>8036517
because transsexuals have biologic reasons as to why they are a transsexual. If there was no biologic reason transsexuals would not exist. Only transtrenders would because of the nurture side. The entire reason why the trans community has so many disconnects with each other is entirely because of this argument of nature vs nurture.

>>8036517
The US banned SRS surgeries and HRT because 2nd wave feminisim lobbied against it back then

>>8036563
>because transsexuals have biologic reasons as to why they are a transsexual. If there was no biologic reason transsexuals would not exist.
I'm asking how you can tell that?

> The entire reason why the trans community has so many disconnects with each other is entirely because of this argument of nature vs nurture.
Which disconnects?

>>8036569
I can't find anything about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_transgender_people_in_the_United_States#1950s_and_1960s

It says the first SRS operation was in 1952 and I don't see anything about a ban.

>>8036623
The biology has to do with SRY genes and brain matter counts. It's still new research but it's promising and shows alot of things we missed back when we just discovered xx xy genes.

Like the whole shit we say like trutrans, transtrender, older transitioner, younger transitioner all of these labels are based off the nature vs nurture concept. For example " you arn't tru trans if you started HRT after age 16 because you have no dysphoria." because the nature aspect (biology) of being born a transsexual is not you leading you to the nurture (environmental) side of being a trans trender starting HRT at a later age due to not having dysphoria but still wanting to be female. ect ect.

There were operations but because of 2nd wave feminism transsexualism was seen as bad at the time so everything halted so there wasnt neccesarily a legal ban more like a social ban because of 2nd wave feminists https://medium.com/@morelikearevolution/was-second-wave-feminism-harmful-to-the-transgender-community-e45254302583

>>8036726
>The biology has to do with SRY genes and brain matter counts. It's still new research but it's promising and shows alot of things we missed back when we just discovered xx xy genes.
Links please? Is it's now been or being proven that being trans is biological I want to see it!

>because the nature aspect (biology) of being born a transsexual is not you leading you to the nurture (environmental) side of being a trans trender starting HRT at a later age due to not having dysphoria but still wanting to be female. ect ect.
I don't follow. Can you rephrase?

I didn't know anything about the feminism thing. How come LGBT people are so happy with feminists now after being treated like that?

>>8036726
>SRY genes
>xx xy genes
wait what

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>>8036743
because feminist are mentally controlling cunts. and idk how to explain it more just lurk more on here and youll see what im trying to say.

Pic related

>>8036793
I've lurked plenty and seen zero connection between the labels we use and nature vs nurture.

Pic looks to be three years old and is mostly abstracts, 4chan posts and intersex stuff which is nothing to do with being trans. It's certainly not got any evidence of some biological cause of being trans, let alone proof.

>>8036866
well then you need to read more or you just don't understand the concept.

>>8036879
I think you don't understand being trans and that the fact all you can do is make vague unscientific claims, post infographics of 4chan posts and say 'lurk more' shows it.

It's cheap to say 'read more' when I asked for links and all you did was post screengrabs of posts making baseless claims like the ones of yours that I wanted sources on int eh first place.

>>8036935
I honestly don't want to spend the time explaining shit when you can easily look it up is why. Plus with my experience with 4chan anything that validates transsexualism is always denied on here. You seem to think i honestly care what you think on such a degenerate image board that I only come on here while i wait inbetween loading screens playing videogames. I don't have all this information rdy to show and I not about to spend an hour collecting all my information to prove to someone who is probably a misinformed 16 year old.

>>8036935
oh also that image i proved has all the necessary links for you to read i just dont have the time to conveniently post them all on here that is why i uploaded that image.

>>8036959
You made very specific claims about the causes of trans and defended them again and again. You were happy to spend time on that. But when I push for the actual facts, not just claims on 4chan or screenshots of claims on 4chan of vague 'read it' while refusing to tell me what to read, suddenly I'm just an idiot who won't believe you anyway and you're too busy after all.

That's pretty damn suspicious if you ask me.

I'm not asking for an hour of your time, so go screw yourself for that strawman. I'm asking for one single link to whatever study or research you were talking about when you made your initial very specific claims about genes.

If it's real and not just a claim you made up off the top of your head, surely providing it would take a simple google search, far less time than you've already spent trying to get out of backing up your claims?

>>8037037
that fucking image has all the damn links you can need just fucking read it holy shit. All id be doing is looking up those links to share with you. You are just a lazy idiot

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>>8037037
Here i got alot of the links from that image for you to read through. so convient now omg.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erexuu8PTo8

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131
Sexual differentiation of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in humans may extend into adulthood.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X06001462
The biology of human psychosexual differentiation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186
The biology of human psychosexual differentiation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation.

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm
Transsexual gene link identified

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803
Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism.

>>8037058
>>8037086
It's obvious that you're just spamming links in the hope that I'll get board, give up and you can chalk it up as a win for you, without ever having read a single one yourself or bothered with finding facts that support your claims.

By chance one of your links was connected to the genetics claim >>8036726

It was only a popsci article but with a bit of effort since it didn't mention the institute or any other details, I managed to track down more information on the study:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm
>"Based on these studies, we speculate the longer version may also work less efficiently in the brain."
>"It is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinisation of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminised brain and a female gender identity,"
>She hypothesised transsexuals could be under-masculinised and over-feminised due to the function of these genes.
Key words: speculate, possible, hypothesis

This is a scientist's speculation nine years ago.

If it had come to anything and became the proof you claimed it to be, doesn't it strike you as odd there's never been any more recent news about this?

It would be a huge discovery, if it was real.

>>8037281
again you arnt reading shit. This si why i stopped focusing my life talking to people on 4chan. Those links i provided are within the image i gave you so all i did was list them for you to read. I don't care what you have to say anymore because you clearly don't understand shit.

>>8037429
Are you retarded? I literally just explained how I did carefully go through the links, and then do extra research of my own from there to investigate what your linkspam which you hadn't read really referred to.

I spent more time researching evidence your your invented claim than you did, including the time you spent trying to obfuscate! And all you can do is lie directly back at me?

You obviously have made your decision regardless of the facts and just enjoy repeating them to people, ideally to have them accepted unquestioningly, probably so that you can reassure yourself that whatever comforting lies you have convinced yourself of are true.

>>8037472
just because information is old does not mean it is invalid. These studies are not a constant thing. I want to know what you think of that video.

>>8037516
Did you read a thing I wrote?

Would you like to give me the time of part of the video that does back your actual claims, and not just repeats a headline that you didn't even bother reading but I already have, and not just a bunch of random abstracts from studies vaguely connected to the topic?

>>8028718
>Feminine and masculine behaviors are near universal
Are we talking about the same world? It's completely wrong, unless you just go by behaviors that are primary sexual-hormonal characteristics. Otherwise, men and women don't act any codified way that isn't produced entirely by culture; if you want to offer the response that those cultural mimetic staples are rooted in the "biological," you're drawing a conclusion that has no test to falsify it, thus rendering it complete speculation and a belief. There is a reason neuroscience and psychiatry don't overlap well: it's damn difficult to come up with mechanical explanations for mental processes that work even in a cursory sense. When they use Zoloft to treat depression, they don't even know how it really works. They know the receptors and paths, but not how it actually affects behavior.

>my main gripe is that males and females exhibit different behaviors and proclivities from birth
Sure, but what does it have to do with gender identity, social roles? How exactly can you tie them directly? It is specious. Ingrown or innate tendencies may inform the nature of a human, but to reduce people to drives and mechanism is a great path to ignorance. Do you think Freudian psychoanalysis was the end of psychiatry? That they just... figured it all out?

>(men more towards quantitative and spacial reasoning, women more towards social interaction and risk aversion)
These are examples of sexual characteristics that may inform personality, but are mostly confined to the operative reasoning of a person--- certainly it shapes personality, but does not determine it. The outliers of these states are common so much so that the generalization becomes useless. It may be useful for propping up your already held beliefs, but it isn't convincing as some kind of interpretation for gender motives and formation of societal gender expectations, which are, to boot, much more arbitrary and less direct than the factors you are bringing up.

>>8036793
This is all quite silly. Mental disorders are not less serious just because everything happening is an occurence in the mind; it is entirely valid, still. When trans go on warpath to attack other transpeople of any kind, they are insecure and searching for an answer that will validate their internal reality. Schizophrenia is very real to the people who have it. Dysphoria is real.

All the same gender is a social construct: that is exactly why one is feeling destroyed by the enforced gender lines of society, and unlike a schizophrenic, everyone else really is insane... and trans people are actually quite sane. The madness only comes when you get confused by what the world tells you is right, yet you know is wrong. If you are looking for a medical reason why you are gay or transgender or anything else, don't expect answers. Psychology is too complicated to be reduced and really should not be reduced to pure functionalist interpretations that treat your mind like a neat and clean machine that functions well: even cis people and everyone really just does not function well, regardless of what people say or do or appear to be capable of.

Again, biological root or not, respect for peoples libertarian choices should be an absolute given in a human society where we have built much on the back of free choice and tolerance. Things being imaginary is not really "imaginary," because the internal workings of society and its abstract functions are real, relevant, and causing people disturbances. Really "trustrans" people would like nothing more for gender to be abolished because it would make our transness mundane, meaningless, and normalized. Anyone who argues otherwise obviously hasn't lived openly for long or hates themselves enough to turn away any help or hope for a good future.

>>8037654
look all i wanted to prove was to OP that their professor was incorrect and was using the basic knowledge they have without knowing there is more to it than it being that simple like you said here.

>>8036623
reagan admin removed SRS and HRT from medicare providers and made it easy for insurance to not pay for these things; http://transadvocate.com/fact-checking-janice-raymond-the-nchct-report_n_14554.htm have a link

>>8037689
shouldn't that be up to each insurance company and each insurance policy?

>>8037677
I just disagree with this argument entirely. To say there is a biological root is one step away from encouraging people to start deleting some gene, because they fear trans being some kind of genetic disease. Put all the trannies in registries and track them down like Jews and burn them up.The truth is that anyone can be trans, and dysphoria isn't a simple thing: people feel it in different ways, severity, and times in their lives. I am not being overly kind to hons or ppl yall think are fake trans, because who gives a fuck what people do? We get blamed for society's downfalls even if we didn't contribute a damn thing, so I don't give one fuck what people think of the pride we have in our advocacy of change to how the issue is approached. I want to live and be free, not be a talking point.

There is literally no way to say whether something is biological or not, because we are fucking holistic organisms. Our biology feeds the personality and the personality feeds the biology. Its all circular and redundant.

>>8037712
Yes, but do you think discriminatory practices are more popular if they do or do not have official guidance on whether they can discriminate? Think about it. Gubment says its okay, so can you. Do like papa fed and retract the coverage. Insurers take their cues from government agencies mostly.

>>8037736
why shouldn't they though?

>>8037763
>Why shouldn't insurance discriminate?
Are you serious? I don't even know what you're getting at here.

If I pay for a service that can cover medical expenses, it should cover medical expenses, especially when that coverage was revoked on the immoral basis of a TERF political agenda which was co-opted by people wanting to cut budgets. Budgets that were cut so they could divert money to giving massive tax breaks to corporations who don't even operate inside the US and have ransacked our economy with rampant speculation and currency and securities gambling. Instead of medical coverage, a bunch of CEOs got to do a lot of blow and buy yachts.

Which is better for society? Consider that the yachts are not made in America but Italy, and that the blow was from Nicaragua.

>>8037814
obviously there are limits to the medical expenses that should be covered, because there's no limit to how much money would improve any medical condition. and it needs to be weighed against other medical expenses for other conditions.

the best thing for society would probably be neither of those. instead give tax breaks to low earners. take minimum wage workers out of tax entirely and still give massive breaks to more poor and lower class people.

>>8037869
>the best thing for society would probably be neither of those. instead give tax breaks to low earners
Yeah, but that has never existed for very long when it has happened: we are the serfs, and we pay the big men to exist.

>>8028641
so is there a biological process that we can induce to reverse feeling "trans" or "gay"?

>>8037934
that's just my view on the best spending for society. the point is, insurance shouldn't necessarily cover any particular expense, and there are lots of things tax rates could go towards.

>>8037942
Logically yes if there is a biological cause.