Help Blanchard Anon / anyone knowledgeable

>>7903953
>2011
i thought this was going to be guillamon (2016)
oh well

there are no studies directly cross-referencing gynephilic women of different natal sexes that i know of
what we can do is cross-reference separate mri studies involving gynephilic cis women (which usually have a control of androphilic cis women) and gynephilic trans women (which usually have a control of gynephilic cis men), and seeing where the brains in them are similar and different in studies where features are well-described
this is an extremely oversimplified description, but the result generally looks something like:
gynephilic cis man = gynephilic trans woman > gynephilic trans man >= gynephilic cis woman >>> androphilic cis man >= androphilic trans woman > androphilic cis woman
specifically, although gynephilic trans women are neurologically different from gynephilic cis men, the differences are *not in sexually dimorphic regions* and are especially not the same differences seen in their cis counterparts

>>7903953
The study is almost useless because the age groups weren't consistent for both and they were extreme.

The AGP/gynophile group had a median age of fifty and all the men in it had not transitioned by this point and were extremely masculine. Odds are they aren't trans, and you could argue there's a much stronger correlation between the men's age and apparent happiness with living as men and extreme physical masculinity with the AGP/neurological nymphomanic man phenotype.


All those unaccounted variables and the author drawing circles around the less obvious link are probably why they had to publish in JASB rather than a biomed journal or something better.

It's not relevant to lgbt because the people here aren't fifty year old high t men with a history of wife beating.

>>7903973
>gynephilic cis man = gynephilic trans woman > gynephilic trans man >= gynephilic cis woman >>> androphilic cis man >= androphilic trans woman > androphilic cis woman

what is this even comparing?

>>7904026
brain sex from masculine to feminine
though like i said, it's a massive oversimplification

>>7903973
Well to be fair, the fifty year old AGP men/hons in the study didn't have any neurological feminization at all. In fact they had hypertrophy in some sex related area. Which weirdly enough proves the GOP argument about potential bath predators right if you restrict it to hons. Tbh though, their age and extreme physical masculinity were probably the actual causal factors.
>>7903953
My guess is if they instead used 2d:4d and physical robustness and testosterone levels as the independent variable, you could actually get the real causal factor and have something with s flawless correlation . As is, they were never able to replicate their study on youth, which makes it seem like the above is the case.

>>7904047
rapevictim-chan, are you gynephilic? you've explained before the reason you hate late transitioners (hence your moniker) but have not explained simultaneously why you are so inclined to defend younger trans women who fit the agp profile, although your 'femboy' self-identity and the life story you give strongly correlate with hsts status and thus androphilia
are you proposing a hypothesis that *specifically amongst gynephilic trans women*, physical masculinization will correlate with neuromasculinization? that would make more sense than proposing it for trans women as a whole, and i would be interested in seeing the outcomes of such a study though i'm not expecting the same one as you

>>7904047
>Which weirdly enough proves the GOP argument about potential bath predators right if you restrict it to hons.
Do we ban men from the same bathrooms as boys too or do you only care about little cis girls getting raped?

>>7904068
>are you proposing a hypothesis that *specifically amongst gynephilic trans women*, physical masculinization will correlate with neuromasculinization?

So what you are saying is it could be the case that HRT may greatly affect which sex your brain aligns more closely with? Are there any studies comparing the brains of extremely late transitioning HSTS MtfS with Cis heterosexual men?

>>7904116
the age you start HRT***

>>7904116
>So what you are saying is it could be the case that HRT may greatly affect which sex your brain aligns more closely with?
well, actually, this is true. it's been conclusively shown that the most important factor in trans brain sex by far is hrt, in that all trans women on hrt have female brains and all trans men on t have male brains. this is why, for instance, the swaab/zhou studies were bullshit (attempted but failed to control for hrt). it isn't what i was asking, though -- i was asking if you think androgynous-looking pre-hrt trans women who are attracted to women will have more feminine brains than masculine-looking ones.
>Are there any studies comparing the brains of extremely late transitioning HSTS MtfS with Cis heterosexual men?
hstses do not transition late, unless you mean /tttt/ 'late' where they're like 20

>>7904046
I somehow doubt that gay men's brains are somehow more "feminine" than gynephilic trans women's or cis women's brains, that seems like nonsense.

>>7904141
Do you have an actual reason for that belief based on actual understanding?

>>7904141
alright, burden of proof is on you for disagreeing with the scientific consensus
where's the evidence that backs your side up? 'lots of gay men are masc' does not count

>>7904157
Different poster but what is the deal with masc gays ans lipstick lesbians?

>>>7904068
I don't know, I can't tell. I thought I was bi when I was a kid but now that I think about it, I don't really remember feeling attraction that way. And Cypro shuts stuff off and I hardly take any estrogen, just enough for my bones so I have very little drive, I also starved myself when younger, so it's also hard to tell if you're nearly bed ridden. Maybe emotional attachment plays a bigger role for me usually.

Last time I eased off on cypro, I only wanted to be with men. I think it's mostly an attraction to men and androgynous people who aren't trans.

I don't think it really matters, I'm not legitimately trans and its more likely I just have some sort of Peter Pan syndrome mixed with bdd, so of course I'll sympathize with the other improper people.

>>7904077
Keep anyone a danger out and away from anyone they can hurt

>>7904126
>hstses do not transition late, unless you mean /tttt/ 'late' where they're like 20
That's years late. Even 18 is too late.

>>7904166
you've asked me that before
they appear to be an extreme example of how gnc in people attracted to their natal sex is culture-dependent
essentially, there are two presentations of it -- 'egalitarian homosexuality' and 'transgender homosexuality'. in egalitarian homosexuality, the average person attracted to their natal sex is mildly gnc and lives as a member of their natal sex. in transgender homosexuality, the average person attracted to their natal sex is extremely gnc and lives as a member of the opposite natal sex. in the west egalitarian is the default, whereas in many other places in the world (e.g. thailand) transgender is the default. whether a country defaults to egalitarian or transgender seems to depend somewhat on how individualist it is, with more collectivist countries skewing transgender. in each society a minority of people will attempt to go for the opposite of how homosexuality in their society usually presents; tolerance for this also seems to depend on individualist/collectivist status of that culture, individualism meaning higher tolerance.
many collectivist countries through western influence have moved partially or wholly to egalitarian homosexuality, but it appears that influence was not unidirectional. the west seems to be moving to transgender homosexuality, as seen in, for instance, early transitioners and the extremely low desistence rates amongst children with potential transsexualism while they used to be high (and with less of a change in diagnostic criteria than often thought).
anyway, as you have gotten from that, how gnc gay people are actually depends on the culture they're in moreso than any innate identity. so in the west you'll see a spectrum of how gnc gay people are going from 'barely' to 'trans', and perhaps in collectivist countries you'll see it from 'cis' to 'even more trans'.

>i was asking if you think androgynous-looking pre-hrt trans women who are attracted to women will have more feminine brains than masculine-looking ones.

That seems like it could make sense though >>7904116 is me (OP) in case you were wondering.

So basically what you are saying is it could be that TS classification should have less emphasis on sexual orientation and more emphasis on how sexually dimorphic your brain is, it just so happens however that HSTS TS always seem to have much more dimorphic brains than A*P TS, correct?

>>7904200
is for >>7904126

>>7904170
you sound like you're pretty much androphilic, yeah
you've had a hard life. you're pretty clearly trans by any objective definition of trans -- 'bdd' as you mean it cannot be meaningfully described as anything other than gender dysphoria.
>>7904180
>she fell for the 'transitioning <16 is viable in places other than modern america/netherlands' meme

>>7904147
>>7904157
Just seems dumb that now we even have to police the womanhood of cis lesbians compared to fucking faggots. If we base our understanding of gender on this shit, are we gonna have to let fags into women's bathrooms now too?

>>7904200
if i changed where the emphasis was placed, it would be what sex you fit into society better as -- does someone fundamentally 'make sense' with their hobbies, psychological profile, etc as a member of their natal or transitioned sex? i don't think brain scans are a viable way of typing people, in that not only does hrt change the whole setup but they're pretty goddamn inconvenient as things stand now.

>>7904208
It's true though, late teens and 20s might be salvageable but it needs major reconstructive surgery

>>7904221
Hmmm interesting, this thread has definitely given me a lot to think about.

>>7904212
>Just seems dumb
So, no.

>>7904289
Trust me, if it actually became scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that gynephilic trans women are essentially the same as gynephilic cis men, I would be the first to kill myself and campaign for the mass slaughter of AGP transsexuals (not necessarily in that order). But it seems like these results can't even be replicated in young people, and there are conflicting studies, so I don't know what to believe anymore.

>>7904198
I don't remember asking about that before but I remember you saying a*p and hsts are influenced by culture this way too.

Why do a minority of gay people go for the opposite?

The west isn't getting more collectivist, so why the change away from the egalitarian presentation?

Why would collectivist countries have a wider spectrum instead of a spectrum shifted in the trans direction?

>>7904318
>I don't remember asking about that before but I remember you saying a*p and hsts are influenced by culture this way too
i saw someone ask the same question with the exact same wording, so i was working under the assumption you were the same anon. transition-by-typology is definitely an individualist/collectivist culture thing, as found in two studies by lawrence three years apart (both fairly recent, 2010-2013)
>Why do a minority of gay people go for the opposite?
the blanchardian hypothesis on why hstses develop gender dysphoria and transition is that they're far away enough from even the typical degree of gnc seen in cisgays, let alone that in the general population, for it to cause that kind of experience. it's possible the opposite factor is going on in collectivist transgender homosexuality societies, in that some people don't really have any incentive to transition because they wouldn't have better lives in the opposite natal sex.
>The west isn't getting more collectivist, so why the change away from the egalitarian presentation?
an excellent question that i wish i could even guess at the answer to
>Why would collectivist countries have a wider spectrum instead of a spectrum shifted in the trans direction?
their spectrum is shifted in the trans direction, if i said anything else that was a mistake on my part

>>7904336
It may have been me if so I forgot your answer.

>transition-by-typology is definitely an individualist/collectivist culture thing
The hsts part is directly related to the two presentations of homosexuality, but why does culture influence a*p too?

>in that some people don't really have any incentive to transition because they wouldn't have better lives in the opposite natal sex.
Who would these people be?

>an excellent question that i wish i could even guess at the answer to
Maybe it's more complicated than this, but the only thing I can guess is that the west is getting more collectivist in whatever specific manner matters for presentation of homosexuality.

>>7904068
>i would be interested in seeing the outcomes of such a study though i'm not expecting the same one as you
what would you be expecting, just out of curiosity?

>>7904413
Blanchardian anon doesn't seem to believe that either AGP transbians or even "homosexual transsexuals" are fundamentally women, so they're definitely not expecting baby gynephiles like Eli Erlick to have feminized brains.

>>7904446
Your misconception is thinking that womanhood is a location in the brain.

>>7904389
>The hsts part is directly related to the two presentations of homosexuality, but why does culture influence a*p too?
collectivist cultures are more likely to force a*p people into repression, because they value group harmony over individual happiness and so shame people for who transition is socially harder (= a*ps) back into the closet
>Who would these people be?
people who are less gnc by the standards of their society
>Maybe it's more complicated than this, but the only thing I can guess is that the west is getting more collectivist in whatever specific manner matters for presentation of homosexuality
while that would make sense, there's nothing to imply it's happening and in fact the specific way in which the west has accepted lgb people lately ("you can be whatever you want to be!") is very, very individualist
>>7904413
i do not expect physical femininity to be a better proxy for brain sex than sexual orientation, though i would not be surprised if a subset of gynephilic trans women and androphilic trans men score intermediate between hstses and the more traditional a*ps i don't think appearance is a good proxy for it (2d:4d ratio might be...maybe? i'm not sold)

>>7904311
>Trust me, if it actually became scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt
Then you would be just as ignorant and would still disagree because it "Just seems dumb".

>I would be the first to kill myself and campaign for the mass slaughter of AGP transsexuals (not necessarily in that order)
What is wrong with you?

>>7904480
>though i would not be surprised if a subset of gynephilic trans women and androphilic trans men score intermediate between hstses and the more traditional a*ps

So someone like cara or many of the younger A*Ps on this board that were relatively / extremely gnc as children? Could bisexuality be a qualifier as well?

>>7904517
i'm not entirely sure what the profile would be, but yeah, relatively high childhood gnc would be part of it, as would younger transition on the mtf end (<30 historically, <25 over the past decade). the signal would still lie much closer to a*p to hsts.

>>7904524
I asked you a similar question last night and you never answered so i'll ask it again in a slightly different context, how greatly do you think cultural acceptance of A*P trans would influence the age in which this theoretical subset of gynephilic TS women / androphilic TS men and people that best fit the A*P typology would transition? Is it possible that there will forever be TS men / women that do not transition until extremely late in life regardless of how accepting the environment they exist in is and do you think this could have to do with how gnc they were / were not as children?

>>7904465
No I already know that you don't necessarily believe that brain sex determines womanhood, because by the metric of brain sex, androphilic transsexuals would be "real women". But you don't seem to believe that either, opting to take the classical Blanchardian view that both typologies are equally illegitimate as women, and that androphiles are merely a product of "transgender homosexuality", such as is more common in collectivist cultures.

And anyway, let's say that we accepted your view that brain sex does not determine womanhood, but also that trans women are therefore legitimately women regardless of these findings. This is what I'm assuming SJWs would choose to believe. The problem is, what then is the definition of "womanhood"? How could any reasonable person be expected to believe transsexuals' claims that they are what they claim to be, if there is no scientific evidence, and if the scientific evidence that exists, actually refutes their claims? Faggots only got ahead by spreading the "born this way" narrative, and if trans people can't hope to do the same, they will be rightfully rejected by society at large.

>>7904507
Why wouldn't transbians deserve death, if it came out that they were lying about their identities this whole time and really they're just fetishistic beta males?

>>7904555
If you think you only belong in women's restrooms because a scientific study says something, you don't belong in women's restrooms.

>>7904574
Then give a more detailed explanation as to why trans women deserve to be in there regardless.

>>7904551
>Is it possible that there will forever be TS men / women that do not transition until extremely late in life
yes, but the overwhelming majority of them will be women. trans men seem to have different factors going on re. age of transition than hsts/a*p, which are connected to the fact that both groups have been intertwined with the lesbian community throughout its history (hstses obviously so, but the aap association is more complex).
i heard once from a blanchardian who transitioned in the mid-1970s that people have been predicting 'the end of late transitioners' since she herself did so; obviously, this has not come to pass. as of late we *have* seen some pretty important shifts, as /tttt/'s attitude towards age of transition will show you, but more agps transitioning in their 20s does not mean we aren't going to see the same cohort transitioning in their 40s

>>7904551
>cultural acceptance of A*P trans
Most people don't know there are different kinds of trans, so how could they be accepted?

>>7904599
In theory it would work something like this, and this is more from a MtF perspective because of how much more imperative age of transition is compared to FTMs: As more HSTS TS are allowed to transition younger and younger and de-stigmatize being TS, I could see a world in which cultural attitude towards being TS reaches the point in which most / all extremely gnc AGP TS would feel less social stigma around their orientation and thus be able to transition at a younger age rather than repressing. It seems true to say most A*P trans are able to repress longer and live as their natal sex than HSTS, but part of me thinks a lot of this has to do with cultural attitudes / how gnc they were as children and other factors i'm sure. The thing i'm not sure about however is if there will also be a large subgroup of AGP TS in my generation that are similar to AGPS from 30-40 years ago that will wait until they are in their 40s-50s to transition.

>>7904658
But if AGP repress because they aren't as gnc then the more gnc ones will already be transitioning younger at the same rates as the more commonly gnc HSTS. I don't think shame over their orientation is the cause of repression.

>>7904658
i should note here that no agps are extremely gnc, though some are notably moreso than others. i'm divided on whether a*ps as a whole are actually shifted to be slightly less conforming to gender roles than non-a*p heterosexual members of their natal sex or if just the ones who transition are (in that it's easier to transition if you're at least a little atypical in that way). i'm leaning towards the former, but have no real evidence to support it.
there have certainly always been agps who transition at hsts ages. in the 70s and 80s 'hsts age' meant late teens/early twenties, and so agp outliers (canary conn, 23 in 1972; jennifer diane reitz, 21 in 1981) transitioned then. now 'hsts age' can be as young as prepubertal, which is obviously not very viable, but people can cut it real close (eli erlick, 13 in 2008). but they're always a minority of their type; what's really happening now is that the agp window is widening, so while the median will probably always be late (i don't see it ever dropping below early 30s) there'll be a substantial minority of teenagers and twentysomethings.

>>7904688
>now 'hsts age' can be as young as prepubertal, which is obviously not very viable,
AGP can be noticed pre-puberty though.

>>7904705
it can be, as i've said on a few occasions, but pre-a*p children do not appear to experience gender dysphoria

>>7904713
That's presumably because they are less gnc. You said none are extremely gnc and while I don't think that's necessarily always true in theory, even if it is some could still be gnc enough that nowadays they would have the option of transitioning as early as transitions can happen.

>>7904688
Hmmm if i understand what you are saying I think I agree with you, essentially A*PS will always transition later than HSTS but assuming that over time society becomes more accepting of GNC / TS people A*PS will have more opportunities to transition younger / feel less pressure to repress.

>i should note here that no agps are extremely gnc

how do you define extremely gnc? Are you basically just using how HSTS typically act as children as a model to base your definition off of?
>>7904713
>pre-a*p children do not appear to experience gender dysphoria

I'm not sure if my experience would count as dysphoria but I do specifically remember having TS experiences pre puberty that didn't feel sexual in nature at the time. Not sure if it would necessarily qualify as dysphoria though.
>>7904679

>I don't think shame over their orientation is the cause of repression.

I don't think its the defining reason for repression but you can't deny that it least plays a part, what do you think is the primary reason for repression?

>>7904801
>I don't think its the defining reason for repression but you can't deny that it least plays a part,
Yes, but particularly twenties onwards when HSTS would already have at least started transition. Younger, I guess less so.

>what do you think is the primary reason for repression?
The fact that being less gnc and being gynephilic means they are capable of repression and leading a normal-looking life. HSTS can't repress like that because they are more gnc, and androphilic though this matters less now thanks to being gay being accepted.

File: childhood gender dysphoria and autism.png (98KB, 711x599px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 711x599px

>>7904801
yeah, i'm using hsts (or even just 'very gay boy' that's not meaningfully distinguishable from hsts in childhood) as the gnc benchmark here
as i've said before, there are agp children eligible for gid-nos diagnosis (maybe not necessarily gid diagnosis, which had stricter requirements), but they present very differently from hsts children
pre-pubertal transsexed experience is reasonably common for a*p people, but dysphoria is another issue entirely