How can trans people be real when gender is just a social construct?

idk you'd think it make sense for genders to exist considering the blatant fucking sexual dimorphism both chemically and physically

>>7901185
Trans people want to be treated and to fit in as part of the other gender to which they were assigned.

Sometimes they also choose to have sex reassigning medical treatment to help them fit in as that gender and because they feel uncomfortable with their sex.

>>7901231
OP is talking about gender, not sex.

Gender roles are a social construct and the way gender plays into society but gender identity is a biologically hardwired sense of expectation about your body.

Sex
Gender Identity
Gender Roles

you should consider killing yourself if you reject the massive amounts of research indicating a biological origin for transexuality.

>>7901254
>but gender identity is a biologically hardwired sense of expectation about your body.
Pseudoscience.

>>7901254
>Gender roles are a social construct and the way gender plays into society but gender identity is a biologically hardwired sense of expectation about your body.

If gender identity is hardwired into the brain, then why am I a "Male" with feminine characteristics that likes other "Males"?

There are times when I "feel" feminine and like to be protected, but other times when I "feel" masculine and like to be the protector.

At no point do I want to take pills to "fix" my identity or cut of my penis, so transsexuality can not be the answer.

>>7901364
What? You're just a gay man, your question seems to be about gender roles (being the protector/protectee) and not gender identity.

>>7901243
and sex is what ultimately results in gender

>>7901396
There's plenty of examples otherwise, that you must be aware of if you're posting on /lgbt/.

>>7901364
Strawman. Trans is a spectrum. Some people feel too feminine, and have developed more feminine brains than you.

>>7901185
Gender is a spook
Sex is real but also inherently nonbinary and variable

>>7901185
Because even if we accept that gender is a social construct, that doesn't mean it's not real. That's not what socially constructed means.
Money is a social construct, but I still want it and need it. I don't get to pick up something at the store and say "Oh, I don't need to pay. Money isn't real".

>>7901185
God I can't stand Sophie Labelle.
She's such an ass.

>>7901185
>"... OR FEAR."
>this is supposed to be the powerful punch line
Whoever drew this weird shit is fucking cringy.
Also, why are all the characters leaning so far back?

how can trans people be real if our eyes aren't real?

>>7901243
>Trans people want to be treated and to fit in as part of the other GENDER to which they were assigned.

So why would they mutilate themselves by replacing their fully functioning sex organs with something that vaguely resembles the opposite sex organ? And why on earth is that something people support now?

How do we not see that this is the first world equivalent of FGM? Regardless of whether the patient is willing or how surgical the procedure is the practice is still culturally approved destruction of sex organs with intent to classify them as a different gender.

If I told someone I trusted that I was thinking of getting a doctor to replace my right eye with an eye-shaped webcam because I thought it would "complete me as a person" I would hope that person would discourage me from doing that to myself.

Please consider what I've said as a supportive alternative approach to transgender norms. Because I assume you wouldn't support a trans-abled person wanting to amputate their legs, or a trans-ethnic person surgically dying their skin-tone (if that's a thing) to try to pull off being another ethnicity. I'm fairly certain surgically slanting your eyes would seem racist and distasteful to most asian people and wouldn't help you assimilate into their culture. So why don't we see sex reassignment surgery the same way?

HOWEVER, I fully support gender expression (as well as expressing your ethnicity or ability or whatever however you want). We already do support people challenging stereotypes by adopting characteristics or mannerisms typically associated with other groups. It helps distinguish you as a person as well as lessen the stereotypes that plague society.

If a dude wants to wear a dress the only concern I'd have is whether he'd be able to pull it off (no one wants to look bad in their clothes). But if that dude has some psychological issues about his genitals that should be something he should get counciling for.

>>7901185
how we define behaviours is indeed a construct created by humans to exchange information to one another
but the things we define with our words most assuredly exist
not necessarily to 100% of cases, but enough to make the observation apparent

>>7904626
>How do we not see that this is the first world equivalent of FGM?
That would be MGM.

>>7904626
Because having a penis makes me want to throw up and kms.
Because I need a fake vagina before I can even think about an intimate relationship.
Because there's no known cure for these problems except cutting off my penis.

>>7904626
>If I told someone I trusted that I was thinking of getting a doctor to replace my right eye with an eye-shaped webcam because I thought it would "complete me as a person" I would hope that person would discourage me from doing that to myself.
if half the population was born with eye-shaped webcams and it was an ordinary way for the human body to develop in the womb, and several decades of science had proven that people who want or do not want eye-shaped webcams are best treated by the addition or removal or eye-shaped webcams, this would be perfectly reasonable
>Because I assume you wouldn't support a trans-abled person wanting to amputate their legs
biid is a complicated topic with no scientific consensus yet, but it's starting to look like the consensus is that it's the same as transsexualism in that amputation is the only treatment

>>7901243
isn't gender just neurological sex?

>>7902109
It's binary, it just has a binary pattern. There can be deviations from a pattern without it not existing. Sexual binary is real.

>>7904626
>How do we not see that this is the first world equivalent of FGM? Regardless of whether the patient is willing or how surgical the procedure is the practice is still culturally approved destruction of sex organs

How is a heart transplant any different from an Aztec sacrifice? Regardless of whether the patient is willing or how surgical the procedure is the practice is still culturally approved destruction of cardiovascular organs.

> with intent to classify them as a different gender.
That's not even the intent of fgm.

>>7901264
>That's why women with Hirsutism want to remove all the body and facial hairs.
>That's why men with gynecomastia want get surgery for it.

If something is not fit with ones gender it can get pretty bad.

Trans people have something like that on extreme level because most of your body elements wont align with your gender.

File: 64827dc3087ee1a0d9e5df1faf0a05307539f5d22d64ef093381bdba1c024a20.gif (32KB, 810x800px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 810x800px

>>7902185
The whole thing is like that. /pol/ used to dedicate threads to posting your edits of them but I haven't seen one in ages.
http://www.assignedmale.com/

>>7902229
got to bed Jaden

>>7901185
modern gender ideology is all about pandering to the insane.
its not supposed to make sense.

>>7901185
Other examples of social constructs:

- Money
- Laws
- Nationality
- Race

Just because something is a social construct doesn't mean that it isn't real. Social constructs are things giving value by society.

>>7907448
Race is another thing that needs to be deconstructed and removed from relevance.

>>7901364
Many "feminine characteristics" actually are social constructs in that we can see them vary across cultures, stuff like associated colors and fashion, but that doesn't mean there are no differences.
As for being homosexual they've observed neurological differences similar to with trans people but less extensive so it may be some sort of partial neurological "intersexuality".
It's actually kind of ironic that trans people were once considered "super-gay" and still are by some ignorant people but gay people being a sort of "tranny-lite" may actually be a more accurate description.

>>7904626
>So why would they mutilate themselves
Yes, I TOO believe any surgery that I don't like is mutilation regardless of what any ivy league doctors think!
>And why on earth is that something people support now?
Sure "doctors" and "scientists" may claim it's because it's the most effective available treatment but genius smarties like you and me know it's REALLY just the liberal sjw one world government conspiracy!

>>7901185
>are genders not a social construct and therefore predicted by nature?
Yeah, dur. Has anyone ever claimed for any reason that gender IS a social construct besides ideologically blinded progshitters? If gender is a social construct I guess lions and dogs have culture now and need to be reeducated as well.

>>7907694
placebos are not very helpful, they are a very temporary solution.

cutting off your dick so you can better pretend to be a girl is nothing more then that,
sooner or later you wont be able to keep the delusion up anymore and kill yourself just like everyone else who does the same.

getting proper help would be far better for everyone.
but that will never happen because "doctors" dont profit as much that way.

File: heres an option.jpg (5KB, 225x224px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 225x224px

>>7901264

Plz

You would be doing all of us a great favor.

>>7904626
>How do we not see that this is the first world equivalent of FGM?
Because the actual equivalent is infant circumcision. If consent makes the difference between sex and rape then it sure as hell makes a difference in the case of surgical procedures.

>If I told someone I trusted that I was thinking of getting a doctor to replace my right eye with an eye-shaped webcam because I thought it would "complete me as a person" I would hope that person would discourage me from doing that to myself.
But it would still be your right to have your eye replaced with one that you found more comfortable regardless of the other person's feelings because your eye doesn't belong to them. Similarly, a tranny's benis or vagOOO doesn't belong to you.

>Because I assume you wouldn't support a trans-abled person wanting to amputate their legs, or a trans-ethnic person surgically dying their skin-tone (if that's a thing) to try to pull off being another ethnicity.
You assume wrongly.

>>7907491
>t. pajeet jamarcus al-pedro al-chang

>>7902109
>Sex is real but also inherently nonbinary and variable
So because intersex people exist sex is nonbinary? That's like saying because some people are born without arms or legs we can't generalize by saying people have two arms and two legs.

>>7908187
>placebos are not very helpful, they are a very temporary solution
>getting proper help would be far better for everyone
Yeah and those "doctors" may say that it's not a placebo and provides lasting improvement but we know it's really a convoluted conspiracy to assassinate REAL doctors in order to hide the secret simple cure of maple syrup in order to make money even though there's more money in endless therapy and ineffective psychiatric meds.
You and I and know that "statistics" and "facts" are just part of THE CONSPIRACY!1!!

>>7910029
I think you mean unnecessary surgical procedures, but yeah, it's fucked

>>7910029
>>How do we not see that this is the first world equivalent of FGM?
>Because the actual equivalent is infant circumcision.
Male circumcision. FGM is female circumcision.

>>7908187
>placebos are not very helpful, they are a very temporary solution.
>cutting off your dick so you can better pretend to be a girl is nothing more then that,
So how should trans people be helped?

>>7904626
>So why would they mutilate themselves by replacing their fully functioning sex organs with something that vaguely resembles the opposite sex organ? And why on earth is that something people support now?
Don't mind anon, he's an idiot and has it completely backwards. Being trans is about discomfort with one's sex (dysphoria). Fitting in with a certain gender can be a big element but it's not the end all.
True, not all people with dysphoria pursue treatment for it, but people refuse treatment for all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons.

Trans people aren't just a bunch of crazy weirdos who want to fuck their bodies up no matter what society says. The decision to seek treatment is an incredibly difficult one that often puts one's entire life as they know it at risk - family, friends, career, general normalcy. It's not something anyone approaches lightly, and if there were a less invasive means of treating dysphoria, many would take it. But transition is simply the best/only treatment available.

>If I told someone I trusted that I was thinking of getting a doctor to replace my right eye with an eye-shaped webcam because I thought it would "complete me as a person" I would hope that person would discourage me from doing that to myself.
The difference is, that's a bizarre personal quirk, not a recognised medical condition that's observable throughout history, throughly studied this century, and shared by thousands of people regardless of personality, beliefs or background.

>>7908187

Oh yeah. That's why we still give bipolar patients lobotomies, because dem one-time massively-controversial surgery bux are just too juicy compared to the meagre pennies you can weed out of people by hooking them on useless, seemingly harmless, socially acceptable pills and keeping them dependant on a fruitless, expensive cycle for the rest of their lives.

Oh wait no, the exact opposite of that.

>>7901185
Dysphoria.

Were you born as a dude, and do you hate your body hair? Do you desperately want boobs? Do you get happy whenever you look down after you tuck? Do you get angry or depressed whenever someone calls you "he" or "male-name"?

Gender is just a euphemism for personality. 'tomboy' trans girls exist. So do 'flaming gay' trans men.

How you feel about your body is the crux of the issue.

>>7902141
I liked her at first, but she is just so up her own ass! Probably a tight, firm, ass.... And she has constantly complained about liking dick conflicting with her hatred of men.... Might wanna go to Quebec, test my French mooooves.

File: help me I have dysphoria.jpg (51KB, 338x450px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 338x450px

>>7904691
thanks for your contribution. here's your (You)
>>7904701
I'm still unconvinced that this is a problem with your body instead of a psychological issue you could deal with.
Black people who wish they were white can't just get surgery for that. Old people can't become young again. And despite the fact that sex reassignment surgery does exist, it's no where near perfect. Men can't be women. Women can't be men. That doesn't mean men can't be feminine or women can't be masculine.

Hell, you don't see furries being supported to do pic related to themselves do you?

>>7904702
I understand the scientific consensus around this topic, I just disagree that it is the best option for people.

It's not because it's unnatural, it's because it destroys function. Breast implants or reductions, tattoos, piercings, and face lifts are all cosmetic in nature. Getting one's tubes tied or getting a vasectomy can be reversed. Removing one's gall bladder or tonsils don't seem to have any negative effect on a person's health. I simply can't lump reassignment surgery into this list of body modifications that improve quality of life.

And then there's the suicide rate that doesn't seem to change before or after transition for transgender people. That's troubling and possibly indicative that maybe this "best treatment" isn't getting at the heart of the problem.

>>7905149
B-because, people... die if they don't get heart transplants? And because we don't take them from people who aren't brain-dead. Am I wrong or was anon's argument here just insane?

And in societies where female genital mutilation persists they culturally recognize three genders; male, unclean female (female with her vagina still intact), and acceptable female (female with vagina shaved down). Might wanna read up on this topic my friend.

>>7907694
>Gender has nothing to do with my penis
>I wanna be a girl now
>Better chop off my penis!
I've stated in a previous post why I don't agree with the scientific consensus on this one.

I would argue that trans supporters are putting the emphasis on the trans person's body as being the problem, not society's view of them. We associate certain characteristics with people without knowing them based solely on their sex. These expectations is what we define as gender. I support challenging those expectations, not carving one's self to better fit the flawed expectations. It just seems like the wrong approach to me.

>>7910029
Yes, consent does make a difference. I agree 100%. And I know it's hard to look past the issue of consent (like I suggested in my previous post) and consider whether the underlying motivations and practices are similar, but that is what I'm asking you to do. I argue that both practices are not in the patient's best interest.

People have a certain responsibility to themselves and society as to not do themselves harm because that can only make them a burden on someone else.

And I am not saying this surgery shouldn't be allowed. Hold up this is important. I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE SEX REASSIGNMENT SURGERY, THIS IS TRUE. HOWEVER, I ALSO DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT ILLEGAL. I'M NOT TRYING TO PREVENT REASSIGNMENT SURGERY, I'M TRYING TO OFFER POSSIBLY A BETTER ALTERNATIVE.

The trans-race/ethnicity thing is another thing. People love to claim that they're color blind but then hate on Dolezal.

File: unisex bathroom.png (709KB, 1054x582px) Image search: [Google]

709KB, 1054x582px

>>7918496
Just wanted to say I appreciate you being less combative. And the dysphoria argument is something that I have admittedly shrugged off as something a person can just get over. Which may not be the most considerate argument.

I align myself with most left leaning ideology so I see people supporting reassignment surgery most times as the obvious option. What I'm concerned about is a kid who knows they don't identify with their assigned gender and the only arguments they see are "you have a vagina so you have to be a woman" or "if you are uncomfortable in the body you have reassignment surgery is your best option."
I don't hear of many people who, like me, are supportive of them expressing their gender how they want while still not undergoing a serious surgery they can't ever reverse. What if someone realizes after they've fully transitioned that it was a mistake?

If there was a way to bring this radical idea up to my liberal friends I wouldn't be having this argument on an image board you know what I mean? It's the sort of suggestion that labels me as trans-phobic despite my support of transgendered people.

The ideal solution would be if we didn't have gendered pronouns and had one bathroom for everyone and basically worked toward lessening the weight that the gender binary has in our culture. We could have days like "a day without muslims" or "a day without women" except it would be "a day without gender binary" and people who participate could wear clothing and participate in activities typical of the opposite gender.

I mean if someone shouldn't care whether a transgender person has a penis or a vagina then why WHY is a transition "incomplete" unless they go through reassignment surgery? No one besides their partner will really know what the trans person has between their legs right?

Anyway, I think reassignment surgery shouldn't be the default option for someone who doesn't fit in the gender binary. That maybe the gender binary IS the problem.

>>7919218
>How you feel about your body is the crux of the issue.
And other forms of dysphoria, such as social dysphoria.

>>7901185
gender IS a social construct, but it exists within the confines of our society.

If gender is meaningless and is a social construct, why can't people do whatever they want with their bodies? Like, why complain about people wanting to do whatever with their bodies and their gender if it's all made up?

>>7919422
pic is fake and disgusting

Progressives do mental gymnastics. Trans have a mental disorder.

>>7921821
yes why dont we just let people kill themselves, heavily abuse drugs, and just make terrible life decisions in general.

>>7901185
>How can trans people be real when gender is just a social construct?
Protip: We aren't.

>>7919422
>thanks for your contribution. here's your (You)
She's right you retard. SRS is not FGM.

>>7901185
It's simple: gender theorists are not doctors and should not be taken seriously outside a gender studies classroom, much less in a medical context.

>>7901185
but genders not a social construct...

>>7907694
>Sure "doctors" and "scientists" may claim it's because it's the most effective available treatment
Take away gender roles and nobody will want to transition.

>>7935151
Lol that's not even true, body dysphoria is fuckin intense

>>7935160
BECAUSE OF GENDER ROLES.

>>7919633
>I don't hear of many people who, like me, are supportive of them expressing their gender how they want while still not undergoing a serious surgery they can't ever reverse.
Anyone seeking transition options will do so through doctors whose job it is to talk them through it all so they're sure and aware of risks, so the opinion of their libtard friends shouldn't be too much of an issue.
That does get a bit dicey when it comes to informed consent, but at the end of the day, these are adults making their own decisions, even when they're bad decisions. No one has higher stakes in what happens to a person's body than the occupant of that body.

I think people who are gung-ho about SRS mainly just want to create an atmosphere where people who do really need it don't feel stigmatised. In the very recent past, trans people had to jump through insane hoops to try and get any sort of treatment, many never being able to. Do you know about gatekeeping?
And there's heaps of variation in how trans people go about treatment. It's not uncommon for MTFs to get HRT while still living as men, or for FTMs to live as men without any medical intervention, to stay in therapy or RLE for an extended period to feel certain, etc.

I think your perspective on this might be a bit limited. Which is fine, because a trans person at your same vantage point might be vulnerable to the very things you're worried about. But I don't think this is at the scale or consistency that you seem to think.

In my experience, it's actually considered quite conservative these days to suggest that anyone claiming to have dysphoria MUST transition, and transition all the way.
And on the other side, people can be very lackadaisical about what trans even means, sometimes to the point where a man dressing kinda femmy is considered trans, which is ironically quite a conservative idea of gender noms.
Shit's complicated, and all kinds of people think all different things.

>>7935151
>>7935188

Why on earth do you think gender roles would make anyone want to mutilate their body? What the fuck does one have to do with the other? At what point does "I don't really like pink" translate into "I want to hack off by babyfeeders" in your mind?
People are allowed to defy gender roles. They do it all the time, including trans people. I could point you to some trans men who are the faggiest faggots you'll ever see and blend in seamlessly with the gals.
Gender roles are not the reason people transition. You might as well say that sad movies cause depression.

>>7935188
REAL THINGS ONLY EXIST BECAUSE OF FANTASIES?!

>>7921821
>If gender is meaningless and is a social construct, why can't people do whatever they want with their bodies? Like, why complain about people wanting to do whatever with their bodies and their gender if it's all made up?

But you just asserted that gender is a social construct (sorry it isn't btw). And then continued to argue on that predicate. Gender is neither meaningless or (completely) social constructed. (I don't deny that there are social constructs around gender but gender is a fundamentally biological phenomenon and yes I do know the difference between sex and gender).

>>7931071
>should not be taken seriously outside a gender studies classroom

They shouldn't be taken seriously at all. It's all postmodernist garbage.

>>7935188
Gender roles are largely due to genetic factors caused by sex. you are basically asking to get rid of biology.

>>7939821
Not really or else they wouldn't vary from society to society.
There's no biological link between pink dresses and vaginas.

>>7939821
>feels dysphoric over not being allowed to grow long hair or wear a dress
>this is genetic factors caused by sex

>>7907448
this

>>7901254
Please, kill yourself first. You are an idiot.
>gender identity is a biologically hardwired sense of expectation about your body.
Fortunately for psychological terminology, 'gender identity' means exactly what the combination of the words 'gender' and 'identity' mean.
>hardwired sense of expectation about your body.
Not surprisingly, that they have not expectation about their body whatsoever. In fact, if somebody expects something, then there is a set of possible outcome. And yes, children need to learn about the structure of bodies and then form categorical self by the age of 3 to have any feelings about it.
>biological origin
If neural correlates or correspondence with sex-dimorphic neuroanatmical features were discovered, it is still very far from being support for that insane statement about fetuses expecting to find a specific set of genitals. It's evolutionary absurd to encode such information in such complex information in the brain.

Also, many microanatomical findings developed during adult life, weren't universally found, were associated with homosexuality, or even depended on a staining method.

Needless to say, MtF's typical brain is far from being female by that "massive research" of an area nobody cares about.

>>7939821
Dysphoria is nothing to do with gender roles.