for all of you faggots - why you are doing more harm than good

>>7878466
>my failed FFS with one of the most expensive and aggressive FFS surgeons,
What happened?

>he reached out to them to revisit the main concepts of FFS and why so many people have FFS and they don't pass, and the stupid trannies told him that he is transphobic since he wants to push the envelope to mold transsexuals into a heteronormative idea of beauty
But if they don't believe in heteronormative ideas of beauty, why are they getting FFS in the first place!

>>7878520
>But if they don't believe in heteronormative ideas of beauty, why are they getting FFS in the first place!


very good point. There are a lot of vocal and delusional hons who do not get ffs and think that magic hormones will do the trick. However, there is another sub-group of stupid, repulsive, delusional trannies who think that FFS is enough to "free the angel from the marble" like Michelangelo did and that anything more than FFS is unjustified. Trannies are stupid and believe blindly in ffs

>>7878520
>What happened?

I went to the best and most expensive FFS surgeon in the world (who is now retired). He never forewarned me that I was a bad candidate for FFS, since I am brachycephalic. Regardless, my hairline slipped back and is higher than before, my forehead contours are irregular and unnatural, the slipping of the hairline made my eyebrows incredibly high, I have crooked jaw, dented chin and my face looks more manly than ever. I cannot tell you how angry I am that I was scammed.

I am trying to tell trannies to beware, but they don't listen, they believe FFS will work miracles on them. They don't get it.

Please do not ask for pictures a) for legal reasons I can't send pictures b) you need to see me in real life to see how botched I am. Pictures don't tell you the full story

>>7878466
>the stupid trannies told him that he is transphobic since he wants to push the envelope to mold transsexuals into a heteronormative idea of beauty
Then go attack susans or reddit, because literally no /lgbt/ tranny would think like this.

>>7878542
>He never forewarned me that I was a bad candidate for FFS, since I am brachycephalic.
That's corruption. Have you managed to sue or do anything else?

>I am trying to tell trannies to beware, but they don't listen, they believe FFS will work miracles on them. They don't get it.
It pains me what people will do to themselves.

>for legal reasons I can't send pictures
What are the legal reasons?

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>>7878542
> I was a bad candidate for FFS, since I am brachycephalic
That's interesting.

Who has the best chance at passing/FFS improvement then? I'm dolicocephalic (thanks mediterranean heritage). Am I fucked as well?

>>7878592
you have to understand that I have very limited legal options considering that the FFS surgeon is no longer practicing and has badmouthed me, in any case, I can't go in details. However, surgeons will tell you to wait and see and that is why once you have waited your statute of limitations is over.

In any case, I tried many times to educate people on this forum and on other forums, and they made fun of me. I would have expected more sympathy from other trans-women, but they believe it happened to me and it will not happen to them

>>7878599
there are a few things to consider. Being brachycephalic with a woman's head size is not a bad thing. The problem is when you are brachycephalic AND have a man's size. That is really fucked up. Mesocephalic might have a better chance to pass as long as the scale is no more than 1 standard deviation from women.

Of course, FFS doctors won't tell you all these things else they would lose money

what I fucking hate hate hate and it is killing me is that I spent over 60 k for the stupid FFS and my face is the first thing that clocks me. Even other doctors who have seen me has said so, I am so angry I cannot tell and to come here looking for support and to educate people and have people make fun of me is outrageous

>>7878670
You must have been really fucked, I'm probably getting FFS because I don't really like my face, but it's not like I actually get clocked because of it.

>>7878466
>You people
literally who? who on here are you talking to? do you think any of us agree with that?

>hon yells at brick wall: the thread

>>7878604
>In any case, I tried many times to educate people on this forum and on other forums, and they made fun of me.
I'm sorry. You have my sympathy and I believe you, but I wasn't going to get FFS anyway, so your education hasn't saved me.

Many people scorn help. No-one will manage to help them all.

Can you post your more academic research. I agree with you largely, but I think the whole you know GENDER DYSPHORIA thing makes the options minimal. If you get your foot in the door with more, you know, alternatives and science, you might be able to open up a whole new S.O.P. for trannys.

>>7878692
I have tried to help and I have been spat in the face (metaphorically). I am done now, I have to protect myself. Look, I am not making anything up. I am not, trust me any book on forensic anthropology will just show how strong the sex dimorphism of the skull and the face is. FFS will not fix the core problem. A lot of us will still exhibit very masculine faces after FFS. There is a very small percentage of dolicocephalic men who also happen to have faces within the female range or 1 standard deviation from female. Those men who have these characteristics can benefit greatly from FFS. However, it is an incredibly small minority, and contrary to popular believe, it has nothing to do with age

>>7878773
skull-chan if i post my face will you tell me if i am a good candidate for FFS?

>>7878685
LITERRALLY /WHO/

sometimes I feel as if I wanna rip my face apart that is how I fucking hate it. I had every single thing working for me, theoretically: 1) I am not that tall 2) I have a very good voice 3) I have lots of hair 4) I started HRT quite young. FFS was the biggest factor. I was lead to believe that with good ffs I was going to pass. God only knows how hard I worked and I wasted my hard earned savings it just kills me it rips the core of me. 5 years after my ffs I am still making monthly payments for the loan on my FFS this is driving me crazy that I was scammed like this. Had I known that my face was gonna be my biggest problem, I would have not transitioned

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Shouldn't you be recovering from Zukowski, Angie?

>>7878816
Do you still regularly get clocked? Have you ever considered you might just have really bad BDD?

>>7878805
no, I can't, for a very simple reason: how can you determine what is the scale of your face from a picture? How? You need to be next to a genetic female, and even in that case, if you are a little further away from the camera, all the dimensions are distorted. Unless I see you in real life, I can't tell you if you are a good candidate or not. Plus people do not appreciate honesty.

NOW I AM STUCK IN THIS HORRIBLE HORRIBLE SITUATION WHERE I CANNOT EVEN DETRANSITION BECAUSE OF HOW BAD MY FACE IS I AM CRYING EVERY DAY THIS IS NOT LIFE

>>7878819
also stop spreading that false meme angie isnt skull-chan

>>7878819
I AM NOT ANGIE FUCK YOU AND DIE YOU PIECE OF SHIT

THIS INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU ARE WHAT RUINS IT FOR EVERYBODY

>>7878851
>t. angie

>>7878831
I wish I had BDD. I get clocked from my face alone and have seen other doctors who told me it's the face what clocks me. I am not crazy. I also had my craniofacial measurements taken and you cannot argue with numbers. There is no room for interpretation there

>>7878857
I am not angie you fucking idiot. I didn't go to Zukowski you moron

>>7878466
Are you skull autist? You are right in that FFS is suitable for some people but not all.

What skull autist and friends fail to realize is that even if a craniofacial surgeon alters the skull, some trannies have extreme masc proportions and size, so their now itty bitty jaw and midface would look fucked up on on a huge body.

>>7878839
Actually I would greatly appreciate your honesty even if your opinion wasn't the answer I want to hear, maybe its just my inner fedora speaking but I would rather know I'm fucked then delude myself into thinking their is still hope for me to pass. Also I'm sorry that this happened to you, I really am, you have all my sympathy.
>>7878862
Damn. I'm really sorry I wish i had something nice to say to cheer you up but there really isn't anything I can think of other than that's really fucking unfair and you should of never had to go through that. I hope you can find peace with your situation some day.

>>7878816
>Had I known that my face was gonna be my biggest problem, I would have not transitioned
Nobody should transition without assuming that they won't pass.

>>7878542
Whats the surgeons name.

>>7878914
That has to be the one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this board.

>>7878924
JUST B URSELFS /B/ROS

Skull autist post some actual proof or fuck off.

>>7878914
sorry, but everywhere, left and right, I was told "Dr (surgeon's name) is the best FFS doctor. He created FFS. He is the best, he is very expensive". I then had a few consultations with him and he told me "I can't promise I'll make you pretty, but I will make you feminine and passable so that if a mailman knocks at your door in the morning and you open the door without one drop of make up, he will say "excuse me ma'am"...

So, I KNEW it was not going to be perfect. I get it. But I didn't know it was going to be THIS BAD. I have become a recluse, I am a mess, when I get out of my apartment to check my mailbox, even in my apartment building, I drop keys and phone I start shaking. I have gone through a lot, this is just unfair. For christ's sake I worked so so so so hard

>>7878878
I get it, some people are fucked up. I get it. However, there are degrees. There are different degrees

>>7878542
>>7878466
This all seems like a lie, everyone's desperate for better tools and those bathroom laws finally made everyone realize just how important this stuff is.

And besides regular FFS is plenty effective for anyone starting from neoteny, I've seen a lot of impressive results in Femgen.

>>7878542
>retired
That was the red flag anon.

Can we get a before pic?

>>7878970
>now retired
>now
So he wasn't when he scammed OP.

>>7878914
That sounds excactly like what a hon would say, the boogie men rapist version who like you is u afraid to terrorize children and just like a rapist feels no shame.

Your ideology and embrace of being a monster is toxic

>>7878996
I cannot disclose surgeon's name. All I know is that I look really, really, really bad. Period. I do not suffer from BDD. I wish I would

>>7879028
not now rapevictim-chan.

>>7878956
for christ's sake i am having a meltdown, I come here to have some support and you motherfucker tell me that I am lying

>>7879104
Several people have said they believe you. You should know 4chan and /lgbt/ well enough to expect the other kinds of post.

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>>7879104
that's funny BC I'm also close to one, we can hiss at each other all we want now. But you're right, we need to continue to improve our methods, and you're doing great work by getting reconstructive surgeons to help people, and I hope they can finally repair your damage.

But don't tell people not to get ffs when there are many cases where it's more than enough to fix damage.
>>7879037
Does Spigel have a reputation for doing that too? Everyone here hates him but people on Femgen got it and are happy. It's ridiculously expensive so I need to know if it can work.

>>7879153
I really don't know who to trust anymore. My judgement is clouded by so much pain. My dysphoria cannot be described by words when I look in the mirror

>>7879163
I am sorry but I do not tell people not to have FFS, however, people are very misinformed and they expect FFS will give them a very passable face. In reality, FFS works in the minority (not the majority but the minority), yes. I am not saying that FFS doesn't work, all I am saying is that it doesn't work in a lot of cases. Now, my case is extremely bad, there are other bad cases that are not as bad as mine. There are also some good outcomes, but very rare

>>7878953
Absolutely, the statistically average tranny will have serious problems passing even with FFS. Being smaller, less masculine and younger increases the odds alot. The reddit/4chan tranny userbase is not statistically average so the odds are more in their favor, but passing is not guranteed.

Just out of curiosity I checked my skull with an L ruler, 7" wide and 10" long(vault to jaw). So that's dolichocephalic. But, ever seen a woman with a skull of that size?

>>7878956
Neoteny helps immensely with passing imo. I doubt normies could clock Neotenous/andro trannies easily.

>>7879180
You don't need trust or judgement, just speak the truth, reply to people who ask you for it, and ignore those who attack you for it.

>>7879212
the ruler is not good at all for these measurements, you need a spreading or sliding caliper and you need to know the exact anthropometric landmarks where to take the measurements. That is why the issue is more complex than what people make it here.

Regarding neoteny: you can be as neotenous as you want, but if the scale of your face is masculine, scale will trump on everything. I explained this many, many times and people on this forum are not receptive. One thing is the shape, a completely different thing is the scale. Scale is more important than shape. You need to trust me. I am wearing my heart on my sleeve. I guarantee you that ultimately I want all trans-women to be happy. I have studied these topics obsessively for years, I know what I am talking about. The scale is even more important than the shape

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>>7879212
>So that's dolichocephalic. But, ever seen a woman with a skull of that size?

I promise you I am being dead serious and I am not trying to demean anybody here, but can you please tell me if you understand the scale concept? Since most people don't get it. Look at the picture I have attached. The three iPhones have the SAME shape and the SAME proportions (relations between width, height and depth) but they have different scale

>>7879104

So why can't you give the name of the doctors who want to improve the state of FFS? Also, you're brachycephalic and clearly English isn't your first language. I feel like saying you're descended from natives of Mexico and Central America, but your English isn't like theirs.

>>7879269
nope, I am not from Mexico nor Central America.

I cannot risk giving out names, I simply can't now. Please respect that. The surgeons who wanted to improve the state of FFS are the only hopes for me, I can't jeopardize that. Also, they have received backlash from trannies, from ffs doctors and from other types of doctors too (for different types)

>>7879257
That's just a halfass measurement so that'd be off a bit compared to a caliper.

In terms of scale, your right generally, but what about large masc women? Dot Jones is the most extreme example I can think of, which is probably why she played an ftm on glee.

h>>7879375
no, no, no. Sorry, but this frustrates me. I am not pulling things out of my ass, there are charts there are measurements there are thousands of publication on this topic.

A masculine huge woman will still have different distribution of her craniofacial measurements. I

>>7879267
Skully you misunderstand me, i'm way too masc to transition, I feel you. I'm using myself as example of a masculine scaled skull and body.

>>7879375
you have to understand that a wide or tall man's face is way bigger than a wide or tall woman's face. I know that to feel better about ourselves we take extreme examples, but, realistically>?

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>>7879212
>>7879274

8" and 5" is in the range you can find in women as well I hope.

Please tell me yes, anthropology anon

>>7879397
Absolutely, which is why even an average sized man should be wary of transition. But, some cismen are tiny, tiny enough that'd they'd be smaller than a beastly woman.

Even scale seems excessive, there are male and female average ranges for every part of the body, by race. Average height, waist-to-hip, shoulder-to-hip, hand length, hand width, skull height/width proportion, average chin height, cheekbone height, face width, midface length, brow projection, shoulders, feet, etc etc down the line.
The data is all there, grouped by race.
Just measure yourself out, then google the damn averages and compare. If your measurements are not in the average female range for your ethnicity for MOST categories, you're gonna have a hard time passing.
Most trannies, like 90% or more, will not have the requisite measurements. Why would they? The vast vast majority of humanity is sexually dimorphic and develops a skeleton within the average ranges for their birth sex.
Trannies early on in transition just refuse to accept this basic fucking knowledge due to the delusion, which usually only wears down with time unfortunately.
FFS can shave millimeters here and there, that's about it. And there's literally a handful of doctors in the entire world who specialize it, like less than 10. And they all seem to have fairly high (>15%) rate of unfavorable outcomes. Possibly due to being a difficult surgery, or maybe because they are quacks, or both, who knows.

>>7878542
how the hell can it be illegal for someone to post pictures of themselves?

>>7879434
Preach it, skull autist is wise but blind at the same time. One needs to worry about scale and proportions of the entire body!

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>>7879474
Because fake and gay that's why

>>7879500
look I know there are other factors that are important in passing. I get it. There is height, ribcage, torso-leg ratio (even more important than shoulders but neglected). I get it. However, all of that is NOT as strong as the skull

>>7879474
it is not illegale, but I am taking legal actions and I cannot disclose anything

>>7879596
Explain this for someone who hasn't followed the story.

>>7879611
this piece of shit is harassing me and claiming that I am a girl who went to Zukowski for FFS. I am not that person, I can guarantee you that

>>7878851
>>7878872

pls angie, get a trip or use your simpsons meme so we can filter u

>>7878566
>Then go attack susans or reddit, because literally no /lgbt/ tranny would think like this.
literally this why are you posting this here

(Uh uh uh uh ah
Uh uh do the pretty girl rock rock rock
To the pretty girl rock rock rock
Now what's your name)

My name is Angie, I'm so very
Fly, oh my, it's a lil' bit scary
Boys wanna marry, looking at my derri-
Ere, you can stare but if you touch it I'ma bury
Pretty as a picture, sweeter than a swisher
Mad cause I'm cuter than the girl that's witchya
I don't gotta talk about it, baby you can see it
But if you want, I'll be happy to repeat it
My name is Angie, I'm so very

>>7879549
Ok so you do get it. IMO skull and face is most important but an overly masculine body will wreck a femme face and skull. Normies might not clock such a person but there would be a strong uncanny valley effect that'd wierd people out.

But Skully, I think I can agree that there is more wiggle room with body than face and skull.

>>7879674
no argument there. You can have a perfect body and a manly face and you will never pass. If you have a manly body but super feminine face, you will pas MOST of the times. I am not discounting the importance of the body, not at all, but the body is just not as extreme as the skull. I remember years ago, when I was naive, there was a huge woman walking in front of us and I could hear people wondering if she was a man or not. One guy went to see her face and said "no, she is a woman". He needed to see her face to clear out doubts

I want to clarify something. I have had FFS and I do not pass. I have traveled the world and I have never, ever, ever seen a woman with a face similar to mine. We need to be honest here. Let's not bullshit ourselves. Women don't look like that

ANGIE IS NOT SKULL-CHAN FUCK OFF NEWFAGS.

>>7879729
i don't have a girly face, but not super masc either.
regardless, my body totally saves me in passing department

no one is going to see you from behind and from a distance, and by the time they come up close, their mind has already been made up

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>>7879639
>>7879773
fly, oh my, it's a lil' bit scary
Boys wanna marry, looking at my derri-
Ere, you can stare but if you touch it I'ma bury
Pretty as a picture, Sweeter than a swisher
Mad cause I'm cuter than the girl that's witchya
I can talk about it cause I know that I'm pretty
And if you know it too, then ladies sing it with me

All eyes on me when I walk in
No question that this girl's a ten
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful
My walk, my talk, the way I dress
It's not my fault so please don't trip
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful

(Hey!)
Aye, now do the pretty girl rock rock rock rock rock
Do the pretty girl rock rock rock rock rock
Do the pretty girl rock rock rock
All my ladies do the pretty girl rock rock rock
Do the pretty girl rock rock rock
Do the pretty girl rock rock rock
Do the pretty girl rock
(Now where you at)

If you're looking for me you can catch me (pass by)
Cameras flashing
Bet he turn his head just as soon as I pass him
Girls think I'm conceited cause I know I'm attractive
Don't worry about what I think, why don't you ask him (oh)
Get yourself together don't hate (never do it)
Jealousy's the ugliest trait (don't ever do it)
I can talk about it cause I know that I'm pretty
And if you know it too, then ladies sing it with me

All eyes on me when I walk in
No question that this girl's a ten
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful
My walk, my talk, the way I dress
It's not my fault so please don't trip
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful
[x2]

>>7879786
Why are you attempting to derail one of the few legitimately good threads on this board right now? Your shitposts aren't even creative or funny you should feel ashamed of your stupidity.

>>7879805
It could have been a good thread, unfortunately (for reasons obvious in the OP) it's not.
You should at least be happy i'm bumping it and not saging it senpai

>>7878542
>>7879104
It's not that people think you're lying. People just don't want to jump to a claim like yours without any evidence/

>>7879805
rekt

>>7879785
no, I have seen cases when someone sees you up close and realizes you are a tranny

>>7879805
Also, i apologize ftr and will stop. Enjoy your thread and another free bump <3

>>7879921
what is ftr?

>>7878915
It definitely has to be Ousterhout.

>>7879998
duh

>>7879974
For the record.
>>7878466
Skull-chan what are the best ways to determine yourself if you are a good candidate for FFS? Also do you have any recommendations on good FFS surgeons in general?

>>7879998

I am not saying any name, you take the responsibility for naming names. Sorry, but I can't disclose more than what I have already done

>>7880016
>Skull-chan what are the best ways to determine yourself if you are a good candidate for FFS? Also do you have any recommendations on good FFS surgeons in general?

you need to take into account what FFS can change and what FFS cannot change. If you have a very wide or very tall face with expanded facial planes, you are not a good candidate. These are *SOME* of the things that make you a bad candidate for FFS: excessive bicondylar breadth, excessive morphological facial height, excessive orbital height, excessive biauricular breadth, excessive cranial height or width.

I hear this all the time "there are women with wide/tall faces", no. There aren't. I mean, there are women with faces that appear tall/wide, but their scale is still much much smaller than a man's scale.

>>7880112
I'm sorry I called you a liar. What you're doing with promoting reconstructive surgery is great work.

Any idiots who attack the doctors over that will shut up now with the new laws.

>>7880266
Which new laws?

>>7878943
make a gofundme account and post pictures

>>7880280
>tricking transphobes into donating to a pro-trans cause
Clever girl.

>>7880112
Skull chan not saying your wrong, but I do occasionally see ciswomen with excessive skull dimensions. Not monster hon size, but bigger than the average ciswoman. You mentioned one standard deviation earlier for skull features, isn't that overly stringent?

>>7879805
What about this thread is good? OP not providing any concrete data like pictures or names? OP acting paranoid and autistic?

>>7880422
Look, I know there are women with huge heads. I get it, but, please bear with me. These women are still within female range. They might be far from the mean/average, but they are still withing female range. It looks to you that they have large skulls but if you put them next to a transsexual, their heads will still be smaller. In addition to that, even when woman has a very large skull (which is always smaller than a male skull) her facial planes are condensed, the facial shape and facial proportions (which are different from the scale) are still feminine.

>>7880583
Which is why I read them as female rather than lolwut is that a tranny?

So skullchan, how should trannies deal with gender dysphoria? Getting FFS is not enough for most trannies it seems.

>>7879163
>femboys are getting FFS now
and they still say they aren't trans?

>>7880112

Can you define what all those terms mean instead of just spewing academic word salad?

It's uunderstandable, OP, that you can't say the name of the surgeon you're presumably suing, but why can't you tell us the name of the second craniofacial doc?

>>7880841
Because then somebody could contact him and call OP out on that bullshit conference story,

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>>7878819
Sigh
I'm not skull chan.
Also I'm recovering from Rapheal who I saw for the revision.
I still look pretty manly though imo

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>>7878592
> In humans, the cephalic disorder is known as flat head syndrome, and results from premature fusion of the coronal sutures (see craniosynostosis) or from external deformation (see plagiocephaly). The coronal suture is the fibrous joint that unites the frontal bone with the two parietal bones of the skull. The parietal bones form the top and sides of the skull. This feature can be seen in Down syndrome.

>This feature can be seen in Down syndrome.

hHAHAHA SKULL CHAN IS LITERALLY RETARDED

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>>7880816
It isn't as simple as you think it is. Why can't you leave me alone.

I don't know why everyone keeps thinking this is Skull-chan a.k.a Angie. It's obvious this girl went to Dr. Ousterhout not Zukowski.

>>7881354
So you were fucked by one meme doctor, and in turn went for revisions with one of the biggest meme doctors there is, Raphael...okayyy.

Loving every laugh family

>>7878466

>skull autist is always quick to point out when a man is behind a woman when making size comparisons
>but has no problems using photos where the woman is behind the men

Really raises the neural electrical potential.

>>7883031
>Really raises the neural electrical potential.
top kek

>>7882467
How is that obvious?

This story is tragic and all but the thread can't go anywhere very useful with no names and no photos.

>>7882495
Rapheal is actually a good doctor.
Did you expect me to go to Lee or Sinclair who charge 15k for a simple lip lift?

>>7882467
Never been skull chan
There is no proof of it

>>7880668
>So skullchan, how should trannies deal with gender dysphoria? Getting FFS is not enough for most trannies it seems.

I do not have the answer. For one, we need to raise awareness. Doctors have to be forced to devise new techniques. In order to do that, they have to be afraid they'll lose money. Second of all, we need to stop looking at FFS as it makes your face passable

>>7881333
this is not bullshit, you idiot. These are true stories. The thing is that I don't want the only surgeon who can help me to be scared.

>>7881371
no, you are misinformed. Even Miranda Kerr or Cameron Diaz are brachycephalic. It has nothing to do with Down Syndrome. I already explained the scale as opposed to the shape

I hear this argument a lot: "there are women with huge heads". This is not a valid argument. I could turn around and say "there are women with beard". How many women realistically have beard? Is that a desirable situation (being a woman and having a beard)? What statistical relevance does a bearded woman have? Does it mean that just because there are women with beard I, as a trans-woman, can get away with a beard? As trans-women, we have to eliminate as many male markers as possible because, even then, there will be a preponderance of male markers. In addition to that, I already explained thousands of times that big-faced women are not equivalente to big-faced men

>>7883454
>Rapheal is actually a good doctor.
Yeahhh, no, he isn't.

I have yet to see a result from Rapheal that is in anyway or form better than Spiegel, Cardenas, Mayer, or any of the other "good" doctors, thus forth its hard for me to classify him as anything other than another mediocre doctor ripping off the trans community.

>>7883731
No one's disagreeing with you, we're simply wondering, well, what the fuck can we do?

This goes back to a discussion that's been had on this board a million times over, and that is that unless you transitioned pre-puberty or have god-tier genetics, you're more than likely always going to look off. Also, we know ffs is hit or miss. What other option do we have?

Like, yeah, maybe in the coming decades maxillofacial reconstructive surgeries will get better, or more cranial surgeons will offer services directed at trans women, but at the moment what better options are there.

>>7883751

Vika got good results from him.

>>7883798
like I said, we are not discussing solutions, but if there are no solutions at the moment, do you think selling FFS as a miracle is going to help? It does more harm than good. As for pre-puberty, EVEN if you transition pre-puberty, you do not have a guarantee. Again, the only think we can do is raise awareness so doctors are forced to come up with new ideas.

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>>7883751
>speigal
>better
Well this person went to speigal

>>7883841
This

>>7884279
OP you should start a blog or website where you discuss this and talk about the issues. How do decide if FFS is right for you, what the problems with it are, what needs to change, how to make smart decisions.

A thread like this will be forgotten by most once it's pruned.

Have an email too so people can contact you.

>>7884396
yeah, I wanted to do that for a long time. Do you have any advice on how to start a blog or anything like that without having to pay? My finances are disastrous thanks to FFS and I am still paying debts

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>>7883798
>we're simply wondering, well, what the fuck can we do?

stop caring what other people think, for starters.
and start fighting for a society where looking different is okay

instead of telling every tranny with broad shoulders to kill herself we should be encouraging androgyny

instead of telling everyone they need to either get FFS or consider sudoko we should be saying that some women have strong jaws deal with it

instead of reviling the "hons" that populate this board we should be applauding their bravery

>inb4 "leftist cuck faggot hon kys reeeeee!"

>>7884449
Stop being a decent human being

>>7884449
Using marginalized, poverty-stricken, non-passing trans women as expendable front line shock troops for your "more open and accepting society."

How noble of you.

I guess we can measure progress in corpses amirite?

>>7884378
It worked for the ones in Femgen who got it. Either it works better if you're androgynous, which could be could enough for most here or he just took special intrest in them.

Leaving it to residents is the only thing that gets me. It's absurdly expensive, I want something that seems subtle and natural but it shouldn't be that costly

>>7884449
this is one of the people who attacked surgeons who genuinely want to help. These people attacked surgeons saying that they want trans women to conform to a hetero-normative stereotype, whereas we are all beautiful in our unique way

>>7884449
We'll sooner die that play by your games. The entire problem is one of BDD, if I can't fix it and I didn't think I could fix it, then I wouldn't be sticking around in this world any longer.

You want to shame people for doing the conscientious thing, that's disgusting.

This is why I'm glad they're passing all those laws in the south, so long as those are a threat, all the insane hippies like you who thrive off our suffering will see that your monster forming plan is impossible.

If people try doing things your way, they'll get arrested now. Sucess is the only option, reality made our doctrine the only way.

>>7884561
I'm sorry, >>7884449 is a monster who doesn't care about the damage they cause others. Their ideology has been made utterly irelevant by recent events, it's only a matter of time before they have to go underground.

Please keep on doing what you are, getting new and talented doctors to come and help people. It's the best thing someone could do. You'll suceed I know it.

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>>7884520
>poverty-stricken

wew lad

what happened to make you so cynical?

i suppose your plan is to hide and assimilate.

that hasn't worked in a thousand years

>>7884749
Because you're a freak with features as robust and masculine as possible and the only people you can cite as examples are creepy old men like you.

There's no reason why neotenous males with soft features couldn't suceed on a flawed version as is or suceed properly with just a bit of surgery.

Please, get your hairy rape apologist ass out of here.

>>7884430
Just sign up to blogger or wordpress.

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>>7884561
>>7884581
>>7884606

it seems i touched a nerve.
apparently you don't want to deal with reality.
you want to live in a fantasy world where everyone is beautiful and passing.
the truth is that is just not possible for the majority of trans women.
so we should just cease to exist because we aren't beautiful?
you may be attractive now but sooner or later you will have to deal with ageism.
maybe then you will have the wisdom to see things from my point of view.

>>7884798
You'll be forced underground by the bathroom laws and ID change laws they're passing. Your body positive movement will die and we'll be able to get all the help we need.

How dare you try and shame people for fixing themselves.

>>7884430
>Do you have any advice on how to start a blog or anything like that without having to pay?

>paying to host a blog
>in 2017

Nigger, just make a tumblr and you'll have the entirety of the trans community present to listen to whatever it is you have to say.

>>7884798
...Holy fuck, you're like, an actual hon aren't you?

Not like one of the twinkhons calling themselves hons for memes sake, you legitimately are a deluded ass tranny who buys into the "passing is confidence" bullshit aren't you?

>>7884839
How do people believe this shit? Sure, not being confident might draw less suspicion to you IF YOU'RE ALREADY PASSING... but being super bubbly and confident is not going to override a 40" ribcage, 20" shoulders, a radio announcer voice, baldness, or having a jay leno chin.

I always scratch my head when I read people saying this on Reddit.

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>>7884827
i see.
so you are frightened by the current political climate.
love and acceptance will win over hate and intolerance.
those laws will be overturned.

i am not trying to shame anyone for "fixing" themselves.
if you can afford surgery, great.

just be aware that there are risks and the results aren't always what you had envisioned.

>>7884839
Actually I'm a cis gay man who is saddened by the self-hate I am seeing on this board.

>>7884798
>so we should just cease to exist because we aren't beautiful?

In an ideal world, yes, you would be lined up against a wall and shot execution style. I mean, that's what everyone wants to see happen to freaks like you, as noted by the rising right wing populism in American and Europe, but please, keep telling yourself that everyone will eventually, ahem, "have the wisdom to see things from my point of view."

>>7883071
See
>>7878943

>>7884862
>love and acceptance will win over hate and intolerance


No, they won't

Blacks in the 60s thought that as well, what ended up happening, white flight and the introduction of cocaine into black communities, flash forward to the present and all blacks have is the ghetto and the embarrassment of groups like blm.

I mean, fuck, today's international women's day, a day that has to be had because women are still treated like shit in first world countries.

A weak minority will never triumph over a strong majority, think so is inherently ignorant and utterly doomed to failure.

>>7884867
>Actually I'm a cis gay man
Then get the fuck out of a trans related thread!

This has nothing to do with you faggot, the discussions at hand pertain to important medical issues exclusively concerning us, thus forth, leave!

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>>7884882
>an ideal world
>executions based on physical appearance
>freaks like you

can't tell if trolling or serious!

>>7884928
>Blacks in the 60s

We President Now!

>>7884943
>get the fuck out

the board is for all lgbt people not just trans
and you clearly need a moderating voice

>>7884862
Do you know what it's like to vomit out coffe ground like blood in some half effective way to keep your body from growing? Starving yourself till you spend all your time in hospitals? This is only about my body, nothing else matters.

>>7885004
No.
Fortunately I haven't had to go through what you're describing.
My point is that if we accepted ourselves as we are, warts and all, then we wouldn't be so stressed out.
We wouldn't feel the need to starve ourselves.
I'm not against people transitioning or trying to be beautiful.
I'm just saying that trying to live up to impossible standards of beauty is self-defeating and unsustainable.
I go to the gym and try to stay fit so that people will find me attractive, so I totally get the need to try to better yourself.
But I also wish that society were more accepting of difference and that people could feel comfortable even if they aren't an Instagram model or beauty expert.

By the number of feathers I've ruffled, it is clear this is a sensitive issue and maybe I was misguided to jump in and offer my two cents without lurking more.
I will now slink away with my tail between my legs.

>>7884553
Ffs was ok for me imo.
It didn't make me some 10/10 female and I know that.
Z did mess up my jaw/chin which I did get fixed.

>>7884976
Motherfucker, you do realize you're on a) 4chan and b) the /tttt/ board right?

Like, this isn't tumblr, we're not gonna cuddle you.

>>7885063
You want to help us, I'm sorry I bit at you but this is a rotting wound you're better off not touching

This kind of bdd and the things that make it better are something you can't understand.

>>7884749
>what happened to make you so cynical?
Life happened.

>i suppose your plan is to hide and assimilate.
I don't plan to hide my trans status, especially with romantic partners, but I don't want to advertise it to potentially dangerous people I don't know either. I want it to be my personal business, a footnote in my medical history and nothing more. I'm also not exactly comfortable with what years of testosterone saturation has done to my body and face due to gender dysphoria. I don't feel like foregoing reconstructive medical treatment just to spend the one life I have not only being miserable with my appearance and terribly dysphoric all the time, but being miserable just to function as expendable cannon fodder for feminism so, if someone beats me or kills me for the way I look, it can be a sad photoshopped headline social media activists can use to virtue signal to one another and edgykids can meme about.

Thanks, but no thanks.

>>7885063
>I'm not against people transitioning or trying to be beautiful.

Sigh, you just don't get, the trans community do you...this is necessary for survival idiot. I know people like to joke about hons on this board but those jokes come from from a place of immense fear, not self-hatred. If you don't at least come close to passing, not even looking aesthetically appealing, just looking like like a normal fucking person, a normal life is borderline impossible to have.

Yes, bdd does play a role, but by in large, trans girls just want to finally fit in and be seen as normal girls, not hot or model-tier girls, just fucking girls, and yes, in an ideal society everyone would be accepting of everyone, but we don't live in that fucking reality, thus we work with what we have and try to make it work as best we can.

So, yes, slink away, cause it's quite evident you have nothing to offer here, or really any trans related thread in any way or form.

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>>7884943
>>7884976
>>7884862
>>7884798
>>7884749
>>7884449

A-are you that same anon that shit up my thread about the importance of passing I made about a month ago? If so, please do us all a favor and go fuck yourself you clearly do not understand how blinded you are by your own privilege.

Firstly, I encourage you to try presenting in the world for a week as a non passing trans-woman just to see how fucking shitty the agenda you are pushing is from a social perspective (not that it would actually even address the core issue with your philosophy about why passing isn't important, something which I will get to in a moment.)

Love and acceptance of those that fit outside of the narrow cis heteronormative culture we exist in is important, but telling people that suffer from legitimate crippling dysphoria to "be strong" and fight as gender warriors when all they want to do is live comfortably in the gender role / body they were born into is one of the most insulting and fucked up things you can say, especially if you are not even trans and therefor have no understanding or context to see how stupid and backwards what you are pushing is.

Also, and this is very important so please read this part carefully, EVEN IF nonpassing transpeople (specifically non passing trans women) were given the same amount of acceptance and tolerance many lesbians and homosexuals are allowed in more liberal areas, it still wouldn't change the fact that many non passing trans people would still suffer from crippling dysphoria, something that will not magically go away just because they exist in an accepting environment.

I want to believe you mean well and are not just a troll baiting us all, but please think a little harder next time before you try to push this love and acceptance movement down people throats who will still suffer and feel indescribable pain (dysphoria) regardless of how "accepted they feel in society".

1/2

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>>7885163
>>7884943
>>7884976
>>7884862
>>7884798
>>7884749
>>7884449


2/2
Also just so we are clear, my definition of passing is not looking like a supermodel, its looking like a woman to the point of being able to blend in / fit into society as one, believe me when I say that I would much rather exist in this world as an ugly woman than an as an "attractive" man, as would most if not all non passing trans women.

>>7884867
>literally mansplaining
wew
kys

>>7884581
>>7884606
>>7884827
Ok so the south hates trannies, but what about Canada? We're rather progressive and I don't think we're headed down the anti trans route anytime soon. Pockets of extremism exisist, but it'll take a long time before rightwing extremism becomes strong up here.

>>7885189
>using "mansplaining" unironically

I really need to start a blog. I do not mean to sound arrogant, but I have a lot to say. I have studied these topics OBSESSIVELY (you are right to call me autist, in this respect) and I have spoken to many craniofacial surgeons not only in the US. I believe that I have a lot to say but I always get censored on forums like reddit etc. Believe me, I do not want to be a model. I do not give a fuck. We are not talking about beauty here, we are talking about looking normal enough to have a decent life. That decent life is impossible when you have a man's face.

There are a couple of people who can vouch for me and they know I am real and I have the best intentions. I just have to start my own blog

>>7886876
I hope if you do you'll publish the names of those surgeons (or at least ask them for a permission to do so).

>>7886876
If you were to start a blog that was well researched and provided evidence for your claims it would be a good thing and get peoples attention.

>>7886896
and would get peoples attention*

>>7886876
my only fear is that whatever I write will be used as ammunition against us from transphobic individuals. I want to raise awareness in the medical community and in the trans community, but I want to leave ignorant people ignorant.

I will give you an example: I have read many things on the Internet and have heard conversations on how to clock a tranny and they say voice, hands, feet, adam's apple, jaw... the obvious stuff we all know. Never, ever, ever anybody realized what the real issue is (the face, the face that is uncanny even after ffs)

>>7886891

The issue is very complex. It is not as simple as you might thing. The only surgeons who want to help me are "scared" and rightly so. I have no problem disclosing their names once they have revised my botched surgery (and even then, there is no guarantee) because they have already got a lot of backlash. Trust me. Conservative surgeons told them they are crazy to want to operate on a transsexual. However, the most vocal were trannies who said it is wrong to challenge the status quo because we are beautiful as we are and we should not conform to a heteronormative stereotype

>>7886942
> trannies who said it is wrong to challenge the status quo because we are beautiful as we are and we should not conform to a heteronormative stereotype
That sounds insane, how are those people not against any FFS already? Why would they only act out against improvements?

>>7878466
Since you seem to be suffering from autism, I'll just go ahead and ask if pic related is one of the doctors.

>>7886970
I'm pretty sure OP chose that picture to highlight the difference in skull size between men and women.

>>7886995
>>7886896
the thing is that I do not make claims, really, what I say is as obvious as saying that the sky is blue and water is wet. I mean, it is not me making these things up. Men and women have completely different skulls.

>>7886995
yes, I chose the picture to highlight the differences

>>7886951
>That sounds insane, how are those people not against any FFS already? Why would they only act out against improvements?


a lot of trannies, and I mean, A LOT, are against FFS. They stupidly think hormones, attitude and acceptance are the only three ingredients of a successful transition. See above. The stupid ass poster above talks about acceptance and that we can't be supermodels. We don't want to be supermodels, we want to look normal. There is also another group of trannies who digested and metabolized FFS as the El Dorado. They blindly believe what unscrupulous doctors told them about FFS. They glorify and idealize FFS as the ultimate goal. For them, to question FFS is blasphemy "How dare you question God Ousterhout who created FFS?" they simply don't get it

>>7887032
I agree with >>7884449

>>7886026
>(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing.
Fits perfectly.

>>7887004
Look skull-chan I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, It's obvious to me that you have spent a lot of time researching this information which makes me inclined to want to believe you, but until I feel like I have a better understanding of the subject, I feel as though I should withhold judgment.


I truly believe though if you were to start a blog and lay out what you have researched in a way that shows why FFS is an often ineffective way to treat dysphoria in TS women with evidence to back up and explain why you think this is true, people would listen. You should try to be more polite though when you deal with the inevitable backlash that will come with starting a blog like this, especially if you want to be taken seriously.

>>7887053
I tried the other approach. I tried being polite, but it doesn't work and I am furious. I am furious because I see the truth standing right there in front of me and people refuse to acknowledge it. I am furious because insult is being added to the injury. I am accused of being Angie and I don't even know who this woman is.

Regardless, you don't need to believe me. If you google any respectable article on forensic anthropology, you will see that men and women have incredibly different scales and shapes and proportions. You might say "well, that's obvious". These differences are NOT corrected with FFS.

>>7887048
fuck off sexist!

>>7887065
Yeah again I'm not saying you are wrong I just haven't obsessively researched the differences in skulls between men and women. To be honest I always kind of figured probably like most TS that things like hairline / browbossing / chin / jaw were the major giveaways when it came to having a passable face.

>>7887077
and yet, you can see cases of people who have had full ffs and their chins, jaws, hairlines and brow bossing taken care of and they still look unmistakenly male... or uncanny, at most. There is something more to that

>>7887087
Can you please post some of these

>>7884396

It's not going to work if this OP does it, because he/she is a strident fruitcake whose writing is mainly noise.

>>7887065

You're furious and wanting change, so you flip out and jabber on some random thread in an obscure forum. Your talk here will be deleted automatically like everything is on 4chan. Come on fool, you're just being a drama queen. Grow up and do activism in the real world, instead of wasting time here. OR AT LEAST POST YOUR PHOTOS AND THE DOCTORS' NAMES.

>>7889031
you are an idiot. Pictures do not tell the full story. Idiot! Plus, who gives a fuck the thread will be deleted? At least 2 or 3 people will know the truth

>>7889350
> Pictures do not tell the full story.
Then post a webm.

>>7884378
Go on trueselves and read that person's posts.

It's literally the most ridiculous shit. He got denied by his first choice and didn't even start HRT. He basically decided one day that he's trans and as a first step got FFS.

>>7889445

Still, doesn't look good for Spiegel. The Jew is greedy enough to work on someone who hasn't started HRT.

>>7878678
lol bullshit. We do people post shit like this? I really really really really really doubt you pass in the ways that matter.

Stop lying and spreading misinformation to prop up your self esteem

>>7878878
uh we are not talking about "extreme cases" we are saying the AVERAGE tranny will not pass after ffs. This thread isn't about ffs failing on extremely masculine males. Its about ffs failing for the vast majority of trannies

>>7878938
use your eyes and do some basic research idiot.

Here I got my skull measured you can take a look at the results if you are curious.

http://i.imgur.com/lIE4WUC.png
http://i.imgur.com/A3i9WvX.png
http://i.imgur.com/bINKXCg.png

>>7878956
you have only seen bullshit pictures. I used to believe them too

>>7879028
most trans kids don't pass you dumb faggot. irl you would pick up on their transness

>>7879434
Look at my measurements. There are only like 3 that are within female range. The VAST majority of males have 0 to a few things female range and 99 things that aren't.

Your "intuition" is WRONG

>>7879500
no ones saying your body can't get you clocked you dumb hon, but it doesn't MATTER what your body looks like if your FACE, the thing people stare at and interact with everyday, does not pass.

Also a body can be more easily hidden than your fucking face

>>7880266
the idiots who attack doctors are not 4chan trannies like you and me.. They are the super hon retards that head up citywide tranny orgs in places like San Francisco and NYC and LA. They are delusional. And what happens is a doctor comes in and says "hey you know maybe ffs doesn't really work for everyone" and these stupid hons here this and their brains short circuit and they parrot "we don't need to match cis standards, we are proud to be trans" and bullshit like that. "passing is attitude we don't need this extreme surgery, you think something is wrong with us? Nothing is wrong with us!@ Its socieities fault!"
>>7880422
You need to understand that your brain is HARDWIRED to compare WOMEN WITH WOMEN and MEN WITH MEN.

So when you see a woman with a "large head". It onyl registers as "large" in your brain because its larger than most women. This does NOT mean it approaches male size in the ways that matter.


Also its not ALL about scale. Scale is a major thing. But its also about proportion and facial archetype. But these things proportion and facial archetype are the things that FFS can actually have a major affect on. FFS can't do shit for scale how ever
>>7881333
>>7880841
idiots, just think about which ffs surgeon retired recently (or ever). no surgeons are being sued either. this isn't about suing surgeons
>>7882467
skullchan IS NOT angie and HAS NEVER BEEN angie you retard
>>7884553
>relying on stupid biased practiced stilted femgem selfiefaggots to prove the success of shaving a jaw bone angle and shaving the frontal sinus and a stupid nosejob as though it changess your whole face

>>7891874
>http://i.imgur.com/lIE4WUC.png
and in case people are struggling to interpret this. A single "+" is within one standard deviation of male average. Two "++" is one standard deviation outside male average. "+++" is two standard deviation outside male average.

Now being within male average, you are still probably at least 1-2 standard deviations from female average.

And you can compare female average, male average, and my score by the raw numbers.

The pluses only show how far I am by standard deviation from the male numbers

"- -" indicates I am smaller than average average by two standard deviations

>>7891874
>>7892020
Where did you get this done and how much did it cost?

>>7891884
>>7891989
measured my skull's size and compared by health survey data. It's honestly small enough to be in female norm. Shaving bones will surely do it. It pulled me out of a breakdown.

>>7892052
i got it done by an anthropologist with an archived skull data collection and it cost about $1000
>>7892228
sorry but you can't accurately measure your skull size using a ruler or tap. The only measuremment you can get somewhat close on is circumference and even that doesn't take into account the 3D nature of skull circumference.
You need to actually take a CT scan of your head and measure those 3D files or use a caliper to get an accurate measurements. Caliper only works for some measurements not all

>>7891815
You misinterpret this post. What i'm actually saying is, if midface height/width reduction becomes a thing for trannies, some trannies will have horrible dissonance between their now compressed face and their huge ribcage and shoulders. More andro trannies might be able to pull it off, but masc hons gonna masc hon, no matter how much you carve up their skulls.

>>7892020
So some of your measurements are three to four standard deviations from the female average? Despite HRT and FFS you don't pass? Ok good to know. I think your projecting though. Your on the right side of the bell curve skull wise and your assuming that people on the left side are as unpassable as you.

>>7892444
I know I'm like 12 hours late but

Does that mean that *less* aggressive ffs would help those hypermasc women pass? As in, not only is there a male bell curve to compare to a female bell curve for a single measurement, but there's also bell curves you can use to look at proportionality between two different measurements? I'm sure I'm wording this terribly.

>>7894638
Here let me give this a better explanation of what I mean.

There's a bell curve for height. You can compare men's vs women's heights by this bell curve.

There's also a bell curve for say hip circumference. You can compare men's vs women's hip circumferences this way.

Now take all people who are 5'6". There's also a bell curve for hip circumference for women of this height, and a curve for all men who are this height. The peak of the curves will NOT coincide with the peaks of general women's and men's hip circumference bell curves.

You can do the same for say shoulder width for all men and women, and for men of 5'6" and women of 5'6".

This is where I'm afraid I'm being confusing. There's going to be some distribution (probably not gaussian) of *ratio* of hip circumference to shoulder width. Or you could say, there's going to be a distribution of men's shoulder widths for a given hip circumference and women's shoulder widths for a given circumference.

Now take a 5'6" mtf who was utterly average by the male 5'6" charts. She's going to be 2-3 std deviations above the 5'6" women for shoulder size, and 2-3 std deviations below the 5'6" women for hip circumference. If you compare to global women measurements though, she might be within a 1-2 std deviations instead.

Now make a surgery to change shoulder size. If the surgeon is not smart, he'll match the new shoulder size to the global women's size. If he's a little smarter, he'll use the 5'6" women's chart which would be a bit more proportional. But if he's REALLY smart, he'll make sure that you're within a std deviation of women of your height while ALSO being within 1 standard deviation of shoulder size for women with your hip circumference. It might leave you with slightly larger shoulders than average, but it's going to be the MOST proportional looking result you can get.

>>7894638
I'd say proportions matter, so big women will have wider and thicker jaws and noses for example. So being too aggressive might seem unnatural for a large face and body.

>>7894769
Paying attention to proportions is important. Shoulder narrowing and hip widening would be such a game changer though.

>>7895307
I want to do what skull autist is doing, but with body surgery. Talk to some actual bone surgeons, convince them that this is a thing that we *need* as trans women, that there's a market for it. Bone growth is getting closer and closer to a thing, they need to be ready to change our structures to help us pass.

>>7878466
bump

So based on just body proportions who would pass better theoretically, a tall person (6'0 +) with wide hips and wide shoulders 1:1 ratio, or an avg person (5'8 or less) with narrower hips and shoulders but have a .8:1 ratio?

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One thing that people need to be aware of is that reversal of surgery can happen. I'm living proof.
My cheeks sunk back in and my lip lift vanished

>>7901391
aren't those both side effects of an improperly done nose job?

>>7901468
Never had a nose job

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>>7901391
You mean surgery isn't an instant fix that makes you young and gorgeous?
Color me surprised.

>>7901391
I assume you had cheek fillers? Or whatever that's called.

I think most of you are still not getting it. You are going off on a tangent about body size and shoulders and hips and being defeatist. Your logic is stupid. You are saying "well, what is the point of having a perfectly female skull if your body is gonna be huge anyway?" It's the same of saying "well, what's the point of having FFS or boob job in the first place, since the body is gonna be masculine anyway"

Let me lay it out for you very easily:

situation A: you have a big masculine skull and a big masculine body. You have two (2) problems.

Situation B: you have a perfectly female skull and a big masculine body. You have one (1) problem.

Which situation is better? A or B? you do the math.

What you people don't understand is that a tranny with a PERFECT body but with a masculine skull will NEVER pass. A tranny with a PERFECT skull but a masculine body, will pass in most cases.

Clothing can camouflage the body a lot. The face is more distinctive. Why is it so hard to get? Why this mental gymnastics?

I would rather have a compressed small face on a masculine body and not a goddamned stupid big face/head with expanded facial planes.

>>7878466
>"Since my failed FFS"
>Long ass paragraph about how everything is someone else's fault

Take responsibility for yourself, just for once in your life.

>>7901630
That wasn't the point of surgery.
It was to make things symmetrical

>>7901645
That is correct

>>7902550
oh, excuse me? It's my fault for having expanded facial planes

>>7903411
Nobody made you get FFS.

>>7903448
blaming the victim

>>7903500
>being a victim

>>7903448
you idiot, doctors made her believe that FFS was gonna make her face feminine. And she spent 70 k. Is that so unrealistic to expect a feminine face after you spend 70 k?

>>7903627
>made her believe
Nobody made her do anything.

>>7902531
Do you have a blog yet OP?

>>7884449
You have got an amazing amount of slack for telling the truth. Trans women are driven to suicide by the demands they fit in as cis women, when that is often physically impossible.

People like OP are driven to life-ruining surgery in pursuit of meeting social demands that shouldn't exist.

>>7884749
>i suppose your plan is to hide and assimilate.
>that hasn't worked in a thousand years
We are told to hide by a transphobic culture that will never accept us. Nothing will ever be good enough. Even if we pass 100% of the time, new goalposts will be thrown up to prevent us being accepted. We will be marginalized for not acting exactly like stereotypical cis women or for doing so. Even on /lgbt/ I see trans women get attacked for being unfeminine and being told do do things to fit in that would never be demanded of cis women, and then being told they act like caricatures of femininity. We can't win against these contradictory demands that society has for trans people and that many of us have internalized.

>>7884798
>you want to live in a fantasy world where everyone is beautiful and passing.
>the truth is that is just not possible for the majority of trans women.
They don't care about the truth. They convince themselves they will be among the mostly passing minority, as if abandoning other trans women somehow gives them extra legitimacy when really it's just feeding the stigma they suffer too.

>>7878466
Who is that doctor? I want to pass in the heteronormative idea of beauty so bad.

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>>7879163
Wait someone in femgen got ffs can you put me in contact with them? Like are they in the discord I don't post there cause it doesn't work on my phone and I doubt I'd be granted access to the other channel given my trip days. I swear I will not repost there pictures I don't do that childish shit. It would just be nice to see another femboi who went the direction I'm headed.

>>7903627
In the mean time I spend just little over 5k € for forehead reconstruction. And tbqh it's the only ffs surgery that makes the difference.

>>7878466
So who would you recommend I go to for surgery on my face?

>>7914360
>And tbqh it's the only ffs surgery that makes the difference.
Do you have pics of people who got it vs people who got other FFS to demonstrate this?

>>7914360
>people say this and never ever post pics

>>7914360
With who, Bart?

>>7914452
Bart is the worst for Forehead, he is only good for jaw/chin

>>7914989
I have to say I've been getting conflicting information from a ton of people. If not Bart, it must have been Facial Team I guess.

>>7915026
facial team is good

Dr Bart is not trained in craniofacial surgery, he is trained in maxilofacial (jaw/lower face). He does that weird thing with forehead where he puts too much bone cement in attempt to make it look flat, but it's actually worse.

>>7915091
Do they work on white people cause the pictures I saw were all Latino and black.

>>7878466
So if I shouldn't see a doctor for ffs what kind of doctor should I see to get a more feminine face? And who?

>>7915163
yes go on their website they have a few white people. They are in Spain not in Mexico

>>7915201
I mean fully Caucasian like Irish, german, British, even somewhat Slavic cause that's my ancestory. Also not old as shit cause I don't look old lol. Honestly why can't ffs sites sort Hons so that you can see results that work best.

>>7915250
You can the the skulls before and after on the website so thats kinda neat at least. But yeah it's hard to find results from a person that looks like you