"gay is natural, transgender isn't"

>>7855338
>clownfish-are-all-born-male-a-dominant-male-will-turn-female-when-the-current-female-of-the-group-dies
why isn't irl the reverse of this ;_;

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b-but chromosomes! CHROMOSOMES!

>>7855345
Funny thing about that.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/xx-male-syndrome-0
http://www.medicaldaily.com/hayley-haynes-woman-born-without-womb-gives-birth-twin-girls-hormone-therapy-320482

Nature isn't perfect.

>>7855345
Could an XY androgen insensitive female transition to male?

>>7855345
>chromosomes
What about them? Female clownfish have XY chromosomes too if they're born male

>>7855345
>it's a triggered tranny post
>she's actually right
wow, go her!

>>7855418
>Female clownfish have XY chromosomes too if they're born male
But that's wrong ignoramus, they don't have sex chromosomes at all. Educate yourself.

>>7855419
OP here, I'm actually ftm. I just felt like clearing some obvious misinformation that I frequently see on the internet.

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>>7855424
Their sex is controlled by foxl2 and dmrt1 just like in humans and those are universal to both men and women and. Any vertebrate for that matter

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>>7855429
Also I just realized that post wasn't directed at me and I probably look like a dumbass now

disregard

>>7855444
not
sex
chromosomes

>muh sex chromoderps

>>7855338
>natural physical changes
>someone saying they feel a certain way

>>7855345
Yes, and those are the only people who have a physical condition that should result in a mental disconnect when it comes to gender
However most transgender people have perfectly normal chromosomes, so whats the excuse there?

>>7855483
What's wrong with personal choice?

>>7855417
Not very effectively. They could present male but they probably wouldn't pass.

>>7855338
Haven't read all of those but it all seems absurd

>people can want to have sex with their own sex

>but people can't want to look like the opposite sex

like why would you think one is accurate but not the other? it makes no sense

It's a mental illness dude. No amount of pseudo-science will convince a logical person otherwise.

But that's fine. No one gives a damn about your suffering in the society leftists have created. Even if your sickness is so obvious people will still leave you be. You don't have to fear people taking you away to a mental institution. They would rather keep you as a token of tolerance than seek to cure you.

There is no reason to try to prove you're not sick. People already treat you as if you are not.

>>7855435
>He just got banned an hour ago but hopped and wants round two
OP is the spammer, conformed by hashes you say?!

>>7855493
It's to btfo the "muh chromosomes" fags.

>>7855493
>seek to cure you
oh yeah, because there's definitely a cure for gender identity dysphoria besides transitioning and it is _______.... oh wait, there isn't one!

>>7855487
I didnt say there was anything wrong with it, I just dislike when people hide behind false shields

If it isn't something you should have to defend, then don't try so hard to defend it you fabricate false and inaccurate views of the world
It's pseudo-science to say "hur dur look at intersex people and clownfish"

Im trans myself actually, if that helps you feel less under attack

>>7855517
You're right. I wrote >>7855505 but that's missing the point, whether or not there's anything wrong with it, never mind the science.

>>7855501
>OP is the spammer, conformed by hashes you say?!
???

>>7855492
Why would both be accurate?

Simply because they are both based on want and feeling does not mean one must be legitimate if the other is

Based on your logic theres no such thing as schizophrenia or hallucinations

Especially if the two have vastly different causes - and we still dont know what causes sexuality or gender, we only know what is statistically normal, and we have some very thin theories

>>7855338
Being trans is not a mental illness

There is nothing wrong with it

Anyone that claims otherwise is being brainwashed by medical institutions

>>7855537
Didn't you read the post? Hash poster exposed OP as the spammer who keeps getting banned.

>>7855536
Yes, people use science incorrectly all the time

If it does not have a natural cause, that does not make it inherently wrong
If it does have a natural cause, that does not make it inherently right

Its important to know these things, so we can use that knowledge after we determine whether it is wrong or right, but the knowledge itself actually has nothing to do with the morality of it

>>7855544
>People that want to fuck their own sex exist
>People that want to look like the opposite sex exist

Ergo, gay and trans people exist and are both "natural" in so far as all human culture is natural

There's nothing to discuss regarding the motivation, the only question is whether people should be prevented from doing the things they or whether they should be stopped

>>7855555
Checked

>>7855555
>If it does not have a natural cause, that does not make it inherently wrong
>If it does have a natural cause, that does not make it inherently right
Penta pentuples is correct. Illnesses can be "natural" and we should still cure them. Being trans could be a choice and we should still facilitate it.

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>>7855555
Holy shit, praise Kek

>>7855553
I'm the OP, I don't think I've ever been banned

>>7855614
I know, I was just bringing it up because hashposter shitposts in any anti-transscience threads and did his shitpost here because of the OP subject then realized you were pro-trans and deleted his post to cover up his mistake.

>>7855555
Nice quints faggot

>>7855483
That's beside the point and you know it, the only point is that the ignorant people screeching about chromosomes need to be educated so they'll shut up already and we can figure out what in the brain leads to transsexualism, which is obviously not understood.

It's not an excuse for transsexualism, nor is it an excuse to rail against transsexualism. I don't necessarily instantly agree with "mental illness" if for nothing else than because we barely understand the brain so imo it is unscientific to just slap the label on it and call it a day.

>>7855665
But they arent wrong

If you have XX, youre female
If you have XY, youre male
If you have anything else you have a rare disorder, and generally you'll possess either ovaries or testes, which control sex hormone and basically what sex you are.

It is correct to say that there are only two sexes. It is correct to say that the two genders we commonly see are strongly associated with those sexes.

You cant use intersex individuals as an example of how muh chromosomes as wrong, its comparable to showing me a 6-fingered man and telling me that its totally normal to have 6 fingers

Also, it isnt slapping a label on to assume its a mental illness

>it is abnormal, only affecting 1% of the population
>it is highly associated with various other mental disorders
>even ignoring these other disorders, being transgender itself prohibits you from living normally (you must make a special effort to live the way you desire to as a transgender person, regardless of how society feels about it this is true, even if getting hormones and surgery were easy as pie itd be true)
>it has to do with your mental state

There are legitimate reasons to consider it a mental illness. Im not saying it is one, but it doesnt help anyone at all when we dismiss things we just dont want to hear.

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>>7855788
>>7855555

You better listen to me you fucking faggots, I got five fives and hitler dubs. Praise

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>>7855345
>I'm a science teacher
It's cute that it thinks that reading a textbook to 5th graders counts as being scientifically literate. I'm sure it spent lots of time researching gender on wikipedia as part of it's general education degree from podunk community college.

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>>7855501
>>7855630
But you just got banned

After you boasted about spamming dozens of pedo threads

>>7855614
Ignore >>7855630

He's just bitter cause they banned him an hour ago. He's just bulk shiting you with fake stuff.

Please report >>7855630 and don't talk to him. He's evading multiple bans and boasts about being the lgbp spammer

>>7855818
true, i've learned most of her examples and some more from my own wiki research.

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>>7855788
>>7855818
>>7855630
Reminder to Sage and report the infamous lgbp pedophile


He just got banned an hour ago but hopped IP and spreads his shit everywhere

Remember he brags about posting ilegal pedophilic stuff so hurry and report and ignore before he harms this site.

>>7855825
I haven't been banned, friend.

Here's the proof you shitposted at OP and then tried to cover it up when you noticed the links disagreed with the subject:
http://archive.loveisover.me/lgbt/thread/7855338/#7855435

>>7855818
But every academic circle says you're full of shit. Especially the most prestigious ones.
http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
>Battle of the sexes
>According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance. In 2009, researchers reported deactivating an ovarian gene called Foxl2 in adult female mice; they found that the granulosa cells that support the development of eggs transformed into Sertoli cells, which support sperm development. Two years later, a separate team showed the opposite: that inactivating a gene called Dmrt1 could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones. “That was the big shock, the fact that it was going on post-natally,” says Vincent Harley, a geneticist who studies gonad development at the MIMR-PHI Institute for Medical Research in Melbourne.

>>7855849
Wrong button, it was directed at you and you'd just evaded another attempt to ban your pedophile promoting ass.

You are a danger to the site and you even take glee in posting the lgbp manifesto. You had to be stoped.

>>7855849
http://archive.loveisover.me/lgbt/thread/7855338/#7855844

Bullshit you child porn trafficking freak.

You keep circumventing repeated bans and spamming, this is a grave danger to 4chan and everyone needs to report your lgbp ass.

>>7855788
>If you have XX, youre female
>If you have XY, youre male
>If you have anything else you have a rare disorder, and generally you'll possess either ovaries or testes, which control sex hormone and basically what sex you are.
But you're contradicting yourself. First you say that being XX makes you female, then you say that anatomy "controls basically what sex you are". So you're admitting that the model is flawed.

>showing me a 6-fingered man and telling me that its totally normal to have 6 fingers
Except "there exists X" is not the same as saying "X is totally normal". No one's saying being trans is "normal".

>it is abnormal, only affecting 1% of the population
>>even ignoring these other disorders, being transgender itself prohibits you from living normally (you must make a special effort to live the way you desire to as a transgender person, regardless of how society feels about it this is true, even if getting hormones and surgery were easy as pie itd be true)
Neither of those have anything to do with mental illness.

>>7855914
It's not even sex chromosomes. It's just autosome located genes that both men and women have getting turned on or off

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18348162/

Also the guy youre talking to got banned an hour ago in the transracial thread, mostly because he's the lgbp spammer who's always responsible for the pedophilia shit that pops up in this board. We shouldn't tak to him.

>>7855860
>Wrong button, it was directed at you
Which post were you directing it at? Funny how you delete it and only post again ages later when your mistake is revealed.

>>7855880
Why are you linking to the archive of a post you just made?

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>>7855929
http://archive.loveisover.me/lgbt/thread/7853967/

Sorry I meant to link to your last ban in http://archive.loveisover.me/lgbt/thread/7853967/

And you boast all the time about posting pro pedo threads and dodging bans. The archive is full of your confessions followed by you walking it back after others get disgusted.


And every time you get banned, you hide a couple of hours and come in with a new ip to spam.

I called your presence accurately, hitting a wrong button doesn't change that. You exposed that your ban evading pedophilic ass is still here.

>>7855929
Also, I find it hilarious that you're so offended about eveyone exposing you as a pedophile and the bans that you're now preemptively looking at the archive to get revenge.

>>7855850
Except mice arent humans and even though its "constantly teetering" we never in nature see mice shift sex.

Nature is a fragile thing. A fuck up is not a fuck up simply because it happens, which is how you're trying to rationalize things right now. EVERYTHING in nature requires constant maintenance, and increasing levels of maintenance required for something does not make failure of such maintenance more acceptable or healthy.

Nor does being able to manipulate genes in a lab say that the outcome of that manipulation is natural.

>we purposely did something that never happens and really cant happen in the wild to these mice, so they changed. That change is perfectly normal.

You are still using science in a twisted and false way to back up your own agenda.


>>7855914
Except having XX chromosomes will always make you have the anatomy that makes you female, and having XY will always make you have the anatomy that makes you male, and the other sexes are still errors.

>No one's saying being trans is "normal".
Many people are saying that, actually. In fact, is that not exactly what we're arguing about?

>Neither of those have anything to do with mental illness.
"Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors"

And the implication is that it alters you behavior in a way that is abnormal. You are unusually happy, or unusually sad, or you feel have an abnormal perception of yourself so you act in abnormal ways. Your life is affected by these disorders and you cannot live normally.

If 80% of the population had schizophrenia, it would not be considered an illness. Whether the behavior is common is pretty much the most important thing to consider.

>>7855952
Not me, friend.

>>7855959
I've never been 'exposed' by you before and I saw your post without the archive.

Why did you delete it? You wrongly accused OP of being your imaginary spammer because you thought the OP was anti-trans.

>>7855555
on the other hand, people were allowed to genetically modify dogs and the result was pugs

>>7855952
are you the "you're a christian disease" guy

you have a really schizzy way of posting, you're some serious fucking bus stop material my dude

>>7855985

Except humans use these genes to controll their sex too

And you can be Xx and so long as the right ones go off you'll be a biological male.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18348162/


You're funny, you basically said you flunked out of school a while back, and that you consider all science journals to be fake.

So then if you have no schooling and every biomedical reference is wrong to you, then where do you get your insane ideas? Cite academic circles, not your grade school understanding of science.

>>7855788
>"If you have anything else you have a rare disorder, and generally you'll possess either ovaries or testes, which control sex hormone and basically what sex you are."
>Calling someone who is XY with androgen insensitivity male
Error.

>>7855998
Yea, and they have a fuck ton of health problems

Im all for genetic modification in the pursuit of something greater, but did we have to make
Dog : Cripple Version
just for cuteness?

>>7856001
Ive never flunked out of school, what the hell?
I didnt say the reference was wrong, I said your usage of the information was wrong.

Again, youre using an something that shows up so little it may as well be a statistical error to say...What exactly?

You throw links out your asshole when in reality

>1%
>It affects them highly negatively
>Exceptions like those you show me are so rare its ridiculous

Not to mention, it is all biology.
People who feel transgender do not have any biological basis.

99.99% of the time XX will be female, XY will be male
In other exceptional cases no one will ever fault someone for something physically out of their control
And every time it is genuinely out of their control

Muh chromosomes still has not been shown to be an invalid response, because its still muh chromosomes that are "the right ones going off" to make a male XX

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>>7855992
You exposed yourself to others. You boasted about how you made many pedo threads as a joke.


And then backed away after everyone saw. http://archive.loveisover.me/lgbt/thread/7827682/#7827682
>>7856000
Not them actually, are you the nambla guy who keep trying to defend that guy who posted stuff about little boys and courts and stuff?

>>7856007
Noted, thank you. I feel my most important points remain valid.

>>7856038
there is nothing "greater", there's just the bullshit you like because evolution made you like it, and you getting CRISPR and doing some old runaway feedback loop signaling bullshit, and the end state is subsapient morlocks

>>7856038
Please you didn't just flunk out, you claimed that every prestigious reference source as peer reviewed journal was fake because you found their results offensive.

What do you use to self teach then?
>1%

You didn't read Nature and Journal of pathology but if you had, you would know all humans use foxl2 and Dmrt to determine sex and that its unstable

No, 1% of humans don't have radically different genetics and biochem, everyone is built the same and relies on the same switch.

>>7856058
RNAi would work better than Crispr and it's already been mastered for therapeutic use.

You just need to kick down one of the genes and the other takes over to turn ovaries into testis and vice versa.

>>7856058
>getting rid of genetic diseases
>not greater

What crack are you smoking

>>7856059
Again with the reading comprehension

1% are transgender, that is all I meant
Fewer than that have their unstable Dmrt actually fail, again, instability does not make failure good/normal.

And muh chromosomes is essentially a facet of the argument that sex is biological - which is not made false by the fact biologically Dmrt occasionally fucks up. Thats still a physical reason for someone not fitting the norm, it doesnt apply to transgender people, and the "muh chromosomes" argument is still valid.

Or are you pretending to not understand what I meant so you can try and make me look stupid?

>>7856080
You're basically saying that something with a correlation but no controll should be treated as what makes shit. It's like saying white feathers make a swan a swan.

The point is that rare disorders and gender/sex variation exists across the animal kingdom. Obviously it's not normal, (though in some species is it) we all know that. But it can and does occur naturally.

>>7856043
I dropped out of the discussion a long time ago myself. It all has some research that points to mental illness and some that points to it isn't. I'm curious to see which it ends up being, but if it ends up being mental illness I don't really care. I'm just reluctant to easily accept it as such without an undeniable conclusion. It's my opinion we diagnose "mental illness" too liberally, and that's why you see headlines like "20% of youth mentally ill" or some shit like that.

But even then so what? It isn't something to be ashamed of, and people who laugh at the mentally ill are probably mentally ill themselves.

interesting

>>7855345
>reptile females develop in a warm environment, reptile males develop in a cool environment
That's sounds like a really bad system. If all these kiddies grow up in the same area, there's not gonna be a lot of sex diversity, how are they gonna procreate?
Though I guess it'd be good for the prevention of incest if an entire litter is a single sex due to it's location. And maybe lack of sex diversity promotes good competition for breeding, helping natural selection along.

>>7855345
>you can be male because you were born female, but you have 5-alphareductase deficiency and so you grew a penis at age 12
Oh god, it hurts. This was basically my version of awaiting a Hogwarts acceptance letter. This can actually happen?

>to wikipdia
>"In adulthood, individuals do not experience male-pattern baldness"
And the hits keep coming. Forget wishing to be cis, I wish I was this shit, best of both worlds.

>>7855788
>If you have anything else you have a rare disorder
Welcome to transexualism.

Threads like these is why no one likes any lgbt people.

>>7855490
This is my nightmare. What if this is me?

>>7857843
Evolution isn't perfect. They might just not have evolved a 'better' way of doing it.

>>7857859
Straight people argue about this shit too though. They talked about gay animals and shit when people were still deciding if being gay was acceptable or not.

>>7856070
Would Crispr work on trans people?