>manly women still identify as women despite social pressure

>>7835413
The basic question is "Why care about what people think of themselves as, rather than care about their ACTUAL REALITY?". Like, ok, suppose there is some random part of trans people brains that just happens to align with their gender identity. Why is this part more important THAN LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE?

The answer is, it's obviously not.

But then people point out that social gender roles (which, by definition, are a social construct) arguably matter as much or more than biology. And since trans people have this random part of their brain with a gender identity in it, they will do anything in order to be considered this gender. Which means that they jump on the social construct train, because this is an opportunity to have their weird brain gender thing reflected in actual reality.

The fact that gender is wired in doesn't correlate to people being smart.

>>7835426
No, but it correlates to agender, for example, being a valid thing to be. Like I "feel", but my feelings aren't enough to validate it, even though they take the form of weird shitty social dysphoria about both man and woman..

That being said, feelings aren't enough, and I've spent weeks researching this shit, looking at the best arguments against agender or nonbinary, and they don't hold up very well in the face of "biology is a mess and so is gender"

>>7835428
Anyone who claims that MtFs/FtMs are valid but that agender/generic nonbinary people are invalid are retards.

But agender/generic nonbinary still fails for much the same arguments as MtFs/FtMs do.

>>7835455
Such as what?

>>7835464
What normal people care about when they talk about men/women is *biology*, not some random brain module or the clothes you wear or whatever. Like, who cares whether there is a blob of neurons in your brain that's kinda inbetween the genders (since you're agender or something??) instead of, you know, your actual body.

>>7835425

getting treatment being trans is just about relieving physical dysphoria, it has nothing to do with society...

>>7835495
Mhm. How about when trannies start wearing dresses, grow their hair long and insist on being called "she"? That seems very society-oriented.

Anyone with a brain knows that gender identity is as biological as biological sex itself

>>7835510
That's the buttons society gives you to assert your non-society-oriented gender identity

>>7835413
>trans people in every culture face shitstorms of social hate
>every culture
false.

>>7835592
my point was to highlight that it's a universal, fundamentally human phenomenon

>>7835588
Which is basically my point. Trannies jump on any opportunity available to assert their gender identity, and in effect subscribe to "gender is socially constructed".

>>7835607
But that's not where it starts, that's just WHY they believe it, is your point?

>>7835601
Sure.

To answer the rest of your OP, gender is both biological and social. I don't get why it has to be one or the other. It's a given that when we are perceiving what we feel is a "man" or "woman" we act differently based on cultural norms and values that were memed into us by family and environment. Transgender people, who suffer from an illness that could be described as something like an intersexed brain, already seek to transition so that their physical sex becomes congruent with their biological gender. Being treated as your identified gender in society is an important part, arguably as important as anything else, in the process of transitioning. It relieves dysphoria just the same.

>>7835615
So if gender is both social and biological, why do people go to such lengths to try to invalidate agender/transgender people? Tumblr hate?

>>7835615
We do agree then, sorry if it seemed otherwise. Thanks for the feedback. My point was that people go to stupid lengths to invalidate gender identities, no matter how annoying special snowflakes can get

I don't understand using social constructs to invalidate something either.

No one goes around saying 2017 is a social construct. Or age is a social construct.

You don't have to respect what people identify as, but if you're going to disrespect their gender identity in grounds of it being a social construct then that argument should apply to their other social identities as well.

>>7835691
>>7835713
I don't dwell too long on "Why?" questions, but based on observations I would agree that it boils down to
>tumblr hate

That being said, human beings aren't inherently logical or naturally opposed to hypocrisy. Just because you're gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or whatever else doesn't give you immunity from holding prejudice against groups of people you don't or don't wish to understand. For example in the US, every minority group can and often does exhibit prejudice against people who are externally perceived as part of the same group e.g.
>black people judging lighter skin blacks
>mexicans judging chicanos
>lesbians and gays judging trans
>trans judging nonbinary
the list goes on and on. It's part of our animal instinct to use extreme prejudice when we encounter something we perceive as "foreign" to our experience.

sex and gender means a LOT more to you than it does to almost everyone else
including medical professionals

they're happy with the binary, that's all they need to do their jobs

and I'm sure you'd survive with just that too, but that's not good enough for you

>>7835916
It really isn't, and not out of a choice of mine. As opposed to a lot of "speshul" snowflake NBs who enjoy browsing GenderWiki I really do feel like shit in either gender, it just feels incorrect and uncomfortable no matter how much I've tried to research myself out of this feel

>>7835488
But what if you medically transition such that your body is in between?

>>7835783
With regards to age, see:
https://transchrono.org

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>>7835488
What people care about is altering their bodies not gender roles.

The only thing that helps is sufficiently altering your phenotype/biology to the extent that it bothers you less. Not going some sort of ridiculous caricature and flouncing around as a ridiculous ape in heels.
>>7835413
Fyi some of the femboys do have gender issues and uncertainty but they ultimately consider gender roles far less important than bdd >>7830897

>>7835916
>and I'm sure you'd survive with just that too, but that's not good enough for you
People say the same to trans people unhappy with their assigned role.

>>7835425
What is in our brains is way more important than what our body is. Our body is just a vessel and can't do shit on its own.
If our mind goes insane because of our wrong body it's reasonable to fix the body to align with what the mind thinks is correct, because there is no other known fix.

>>7835413
because gender isn't real dumbo

>>7835413
>>manly women still identify as women despite social pressure
What? There is literally no reason to stop identifying as a woman if you can possibly help it.

blame feminism and queer theory, bruh

>>7840746
Yes it is. Dresses being something girls wear isn't in our DNA.

>>7840746
Sex and gender is real. There are only two in human biology. Anything else is a birth defect.

Gender roles are a social construct. The arbitrary designation of the color pink and dresses for females, and the color blue and pants for males for example.

>>7847740
>gender is real.
[citation needed]

>>7847756
What is a penis?
What is a vagina?
What is a sperm?
What is an egg?
What is XY male chromosome?
What is XX female chromosome?
What is testosterone?
What is estrogen?

Answer these questions and you'll see why you're retarded.

>>7847772
>Sex and gender is real.
>for for citation of gender
>get definition of sex
Gender isn't real, as you have just shown by reducing it to a synonym for sex. Gender roles are all that is left for gender to mean.

>>7847781
Sex and gender are the same shit. Male/female, man/woman, boy/girl, dude/chick.

If you wanna talk about gender roles then just say gender ROLES. When you say gender = gender roles and say gender isn't real, normal intelligent people who understand that gender/sex is the same fucking thing don't know what the fuck you're on about when you say "gender isn't real".

>>7847920
>man/woman
No, these are the roles. "Man up", "Womanly", etc are not references to sex.

You want to conflate the parts of gender roles that you want to enforce, probably things like pronouns and some other social expectations, with sex, so that you can keep demanding those expectations while pretending to be critical of the roles that are what gender is.

>>7847772
BUT
MUH
CHROMAHSOOOMMMEEESSSSSSSSSS

>>7847980
See how he was making a claim about "sex and gender" and listed those as the gender part? So that's the sex?

>>7847964
Yeah, no.

Male/female/man/woman/boy/girl is about the sex. The roles are a completely different thing, societal/cultural expectations of a particular sex that is entirely arbitrary with no natural basis.

Gender Roles (pointless/arbitrary/a social construct)
>women should have long hair
>men wear pants
>women should stay home and be homemakers
>men are warriors
>boys play in the dirt
>girls pretend to be princesses
>cars are a manly thing
>baking is a womanly thing
>blue for boys
>pink for girls

Gender/Sex (designated by nature/biology/anatomy)
>men have a penis
>women have a vagina
>boys enter puberty with testosterone
>girls develop with estrogen
>men have deeper voices
>women grow less facial hair
>men typically grow taller than women
>women grow breasts

That's the entire point of 'gender identity'. We are born one sex but identify with the other and therefore medically/physically transition from men to women or women to men. We induce the physical sex characteristics through HRT and alter out physique with surgery to add/remove breasts, alter facial structure, change the genitalia.

you look like a dude i'll say hi sir
you look like a chick i'll say hi mam
if you become the opposite no problem i'll just call you the oppostie mtf hi mam ftm hi sir
but im not going to say hi gendernewutartopanhdufhjiisdnhfijnsexual

>>7848195
I think we do agree. Do you call mtfs 'she' and ftms 'he'?

>>7835413
Just because it's a social construct doesn't mean it's not real or doesn't impact your life. Good luck surviving without playing along with such meaningless social constructs as "money", "laws", "language" and other nonsense.

>>7848239
I'm a transwoman, so yeah, I call MtFs "she/her/hers/miss/ma'am/etc" and FtMs "he/him/his/sir/mister/etc".

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>gender

>>7835413
you're not getting anything wrong tho. its biological but watch all the fee fee fascists and sjws rush in together to either say trannys are just a mental illness or everything is a social construct

>>7849410
my nigger

>>7847772
There's a shit-ton of chromosome combinations. Yes, they're rare, yes they might manifest as defects, but they are sexes on their own, and who fucking knows how the brain is formed towards being male-like or female-like?

Biology itself is non-binary. Admit that the world is far more complicated and uncaring towards categories than you want it to, that's the only way to remain sane.

>>7848228
Many of us don't actually mind being told "hi dude" or "her" or whatever. No matter what buzzfeed or tumblr say.

It's less about "USE 'THEM' OR DIE" and more "It might not feel perfectly correct, but that's how the world is and it's fine bruh"

>>7835425
> Like, ok, suppose there is some random part of trans people brains that just happens to align with their gender identity. Why is this part more important THAN LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE?
>The answer is, it's obviously not.

>someone literally believes your brain is less important than your genitals or, idk, your fucking leg hair

Fucking kill me. How is anyone this fucking stupid?

We're social creatures, you tard. Your brain is more important THAN LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE.

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>>7847772
>mfw people use biology as an argument when they can't even understand the difference between sex and gender as terms

OP you're describing literally people bending their gender (social expectations about their sex) and then saying they stay the same sex at the end of the day. Being feminine/masculine doesn't determine someone's sex. It's a social performance or form of self expression.

>>7854637
>complains about someone confusing sex and gender
>proceeds to confuse gender and gender roles
JUST