Being trans is not (always) a mental illness

>>7832774
>I realized that I like a lot of the things that people designated females are normally allowed and expected to do,
What were those things OP?

>>7832797
Eh there's a bunch of things but a few off the top of my head:
Being more emotionally open with family/friends, being more lax about casual physical contact, being open about being androphilic, having more fashion choices/shapes/colours/etc, being percieved as less threatening, easier time becoming friends with females

Of course I recognize that males should be able to do all those things but society has all sorts of stigma around it and the sexism inexorably rubs off

You don't think you have a mental illness when you are voluntarily taking pills that change the way you think, change the way your body functions and permanatly make sure you'll never have children?

If you were happy with being a male you wouldn't change it is just internalized self-hatred.

You need therapy you dumb tranny.

>>7832822
>go to therapy for gender dysphoria
>get prescribed hormones
What did /pol/ mean by this

>>7832822
>changing your body means you are mentally ill
Doesn't work that way I think

There's nothing wrong with using chemicals to do it either unless you invoke some kind of naturalistic fallacy

Not everyone has to have kids, there's nothing wrong with people who don't want to do it. Plenty of folks with functional reproductive systems don't have kids. Actually I did bank sperm before I did it just in case but honestly I just don't really care

I was happy with being male but I am even happier with the way I am currently, it suits me better.

I'm not dumb, not even sure if I count as a tranny, that's why I'm asking you all

>>7832847
Funny how you ignored the way it changes how you think.

If you're not dumb why would you throw away the next 30 years of your life to live as a tranny where society will shun you and you have 40% change of committing suicide.

>>7832896
It doesn't really change the way you think, that shit is a meme, research shows the cognitive effect is not significant.
The people who say they're oh so different are usually the ones who go through a change of social identity and let themselves act way differently i.e. "so emotional now!!"

I didn't throw anything away, my life is awesome and getting better. I don't live in some shithole country so getting respect is not that difficult (you're right that there's some ostracization but it's within reason)

The 40% thing is dumb too, first off it's an attempt rate, not an actual death rate, those are way lower. I'm also aware that I fall into most of the demographics that have a lower chance too. Like I said, I've never been suicidal and I can't see that changing.

And even still, not doing something merely because of statistics is pretty silly, you should know yourself and your abilities better. I can tell that I'm mentally resilient enough to handle everything that being openly trans brings in this society.

>>7832896
>40 change of committing suicide
1. The word is "chance", not "change"
2. That's the chance of ATTEMPTING suicide at least once, not of actually committing it.
3. That statistic is for those who do not transitioned, and those who transitioned decades ago when both societal acceptance and the quality of medical treatment were lower than they are today. For people who transition today, the suicide attempt rate is barely above the general population.
4. That statistic is also for trans people, not femboys, which is what OP sounds like.

>>7832814
Are you still on HRT? Planning anything else to transition?

You're not trans normal ways and you don't actively want to be a girl, just get the social consequences of it, because sexist stigma, but I'd still call you trans.

I can see weird situations though, like if I knew you personally and the normal social stigmas didn't matter, and then you asked me to think of you as a guy, use male pronouns, etc, while still presenting female and identifying as female to strangers. It would take a bit of getting used to. But you still do want to be a girl in a way and you are transitioning at least partly, so I think calling you trans is fair.

I'd like to hear more of the things you like about what people allow and expect of women.

>>7832970

Ignoring statistics is delusional, it is like saying i don't believe that shooting myself in the head will kill myself because not everyone dies because of a bullet in the head. Just because you wish something is true doesn't mean it is.

You are now relying on the same brain that told you doing this to yourself was ok to make your decisions. Trust me, when you're 40 with that frankenstein penis, wrinkly balls, saggy tits no man or woman will want to spend the rest of their life with you. That is when you'll want to commit suicide. Stop thinking in the now and think longterm.

>>7832992

Stop humoring the mentally ill. There is a reason these sick people are asking 4chan for help. We don't cure these people by helping them indulge themselves on their delusions.

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>>7832774
I somewhat agree, however:

>the only purpose any living animal has is to pass on its genes
>decide that your personal desires and preferences take precedence over your single objective reason for existing as dictated by millions of years of evolution
>sterilize yourself in order to try and change your appearance into the opposite gender even though you can't reproduce as the opposite gender, so adopting their appearance and roles is kind of pointless

The thing you need to understand is that your life isn't your own to customize, humanity is a collective, everyone is acting out the roles that they were given whether they like them or not. Many people don't particularly want to be a man or a woman, nor are they particularly crazy about chasing down the opposite sex, but they play the role they were assigned in the mating dance of life in order to create more humans which is necessary for society to survive. If everybody was "selfish" and decided they didn't want to play their sex's part and engage in reproductive mating, then humanity why die out. That's why people consider it a harmful thing, an illness, and act hostile to it.

>>7833765
>>the only purpose any living animal has is to pass on its genes
We just had a whole thread about why this is wrong.

>>7833778
Must've missed that one. Too bad because I love this topic.
What was the conclusion, a bunch of people trying to cite the "gay uncle theory" that LGBT exists in nature to help the biological parents raise the children?

>>7833816
Here ya go! >>7829923

>>7832896
Does smoking weed or taking any medication that makes your drowsy make you mentally ill too because it changes how you think?

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>>7832774
>can you be trans and not be mentally ill?
My experience although anecdotal is extensive, and my conclusion is that all trans girls have varying degrees of mental illness. I have also noticed the AGPs tend to be more functional in society, accomplished in their lives, and generally more aware which to me is counter intuitive.

As a chaser it saddens me to know that the most naturally beautiful, attractive, and feminine among the trans girls are the ones that are the most ill. It really hit home once I realized that the trans girl I cared about the most (and still do) has a lot of issues and its very difficult for her to get things done and be successful at life.

I did not realize at first that trans girls are mentally ill, it was a slow and painful realization. I used to look down upon people with mental illness and disabilities. If anything good has come from all my chasing it is that after learning about trans girls lives I now respect the fact that any success they achieve in life has to be fought for even harder than a "normal" person. For many its a battle just to make it through the day without having a mental breakdown that buries them in sadness, self hatred, and crippling depression. Its a constant fight to not succumb to inadequate coping mechanisms that either harm them or hold them back from making meaningful progress towards true happiness in life..... and people wonder why trans suicide rates are so high?

If any of the trans girls I am currently talking to commits suicide, it will likely be the final straw for my trans attraction; if I cant kill it I will bury it alive. The cuts and scars collected over the past 7 years are becoming too much to bear, too many lives ruined, too much potential sold short, too much happiness never achieved, too many dreams crushed, too much pain and sadness.

The answer to your question is no OP.

>>7832774
>I was never depressed, or suicidal, or particularly anxious about appearing more masculine, I didn't hate being a male, in fact in many regards I enjoyed it. I don't necessarily want to be a female either because that brings problems as well, I just want to appear in a particular way that hormones help to cause.

You're not trans in the first place. You're engaging in a kind of extreme body mod which is going to backfire on us if you ever decide it was a terrible mistake.

>>7832896
The 40% stat is ATTEMPTED suicide, and that's the LIFETIME risk based on self-reporting from surveys of the trans community.

The actual suicide RATE can only be quantifiably measured in post-op trans people, and it's quite low. Since the 90s, in fact, it hasn't really been higher than the general population...according to that Swedish study which you were probably going to mis-cite at some point in this thread because you didn't actually read it or understand what it said.

And that suicide risk is largely thanks to the cognitive dissonance of being trans in the first place - which transition HELPS. This, "don't transition, you might commit suicide" meme is fucking idiocy that results from not getting what drives most trans people to suicide in the first place. All evidence points to transition LOWERING the risk of suicide.

>>7833765
>The thing you need to understand is that your life isn't your own to customize, humanity is a collective, everyone is acting out the roles that they were given whether they like them or not.
If you dislike that role so much that you can't function in society, there's no damn point in doing what you're told.

I might be a "freak" and I might be infertile (though I was anyway), but now I can contribute more overall.

>>7834598
>and people wonder why trans suicide rates are so high?
They aren't. Will this fucking meme ever die?

And why are you dating so many crazy bitches, anyway? I'm not an MtF, I'm an FtM, maybe not being an emotional girl makes a difference, but...I'm not OTHERWISE mentally ill, I'm not depressed or anything because I'm trans.

Have you considered if the common denominator is you? Maybe you have bad judgement in the girls you chase.

>>7834669
Not as long as people keep shitposting that one Swedish study they are misunderstanding.

>>7834598
no offense, but you're the one who sounds mentally ill

>>7834715
I seriously want to stab someone every time I see it.

I cannot fathom at this point how the authors of that study haven't gone on a shooting spree.

>>7833022
>Are you still on HRT? Planning anything else to transition?
Yeah I've been on it for a year and a half or so.
I might get a hole installed instead of my penis but that's only because they publicly fund it here so it's not really a cost for me, I think it might make sex a bit easier instead of having to clean out for anal. Otherwise the only kind of surgery I might want is something on my nose to make it look cuter, but that stuff is pretty expensive and I kinda feel too vain for wanting it anyway. Oh and also I want to get an orchiectomy just so that I don't have to keep taking stuff to suppress testosterone levels

>while still presenting female and identifying as female to strangers
I don't really pass consistently, androgynous enough for strangers to gender me male or female based on how I'm dressed that day. I also don't practice voice so most of the time people just gender me male which isn't really a big deal.

>I'd like to hear more of the things you like about what people allow and expect of women.
Just a bunch of sexist tropes about being the sexually receptive partner, not doing the initiating for dating, not having the expectation of doing all the physical work.
To be honest I used to want to be able to pass quite a bit but over time I've become more aware of how patriarchy affects women's lives and now I have an interest in avoiding sexist treatment, which is why I don't mind being gendered as male. The HRT thing is for the most part just about my appearance

>>7833057
lol you're really trying hard aren't you

I'm not gonna keep my balls that long I think

Anyways I don't really have a reason to kill myself life is great, I don't know why you're trying so hard to convince me otherwise, kinda sounds like you're one of those repressed /pol/ idiots

>>7833765
(1/?)
>the only purpose any living animal has is to pass on its genes
Yeah I'm categorically opposed to this view, it's wrong for a variety of reasons and causes all sorts of detrimental societal effects when pushed to its logical conclusions.
There is no such thing as universal, constant purpose for rational humans, the only purpose we have is that in which we find meaning - meaning that is assigned to life by our own subjectivity and nothing else. I've done a lot of philosophical investigation before I arrived at this conclusion and my mind is very set in this regard

>your single objective reason for existing
Just so silly to think like this, in my view it is the result of a sort of vacant empiricism that has absolutely destroyed all value in life, leaving only fact. You're trying to hold a modern worldview predicated on science but it is compatible with a subjective need for a transcendental cause, there's nothing to build any value out of, no clear direction, or creator, just this empty void. The only thing you know for sure is that if you didn't exist then there would definitely be no possibility for meaning, so the only thing you are left with is grasping for the very prerequisite for thinking about these things, existence. You have no answer to the question of "why exist" aside from "well if we didn't exist we wouldn't be able to know, therefore we need to exist", but then you take that extra step of affirming that existence itself is the purpose, which is absurd because the initial question remains unanswered.
It's just some pretty basic tautology that doesn't mean anything, "we exist in order to exist", but why though?
why should I care about existing?
why shouldn't I kill myself?
"continuing to exist" is not an answer to this question, in order to be able to answer it you need to be able to find meaning in your life which is the hardest task. Your derived meaning is subjective and circumstantial, it's not universally applicable

cont.

>>7833765
(2/?)

>so adopting their appearance and roles is kind of pointless
I actually don't want to adopt the female "role" because for various reasons, but mostly due to the negative effects of living under a patriarchy and having all sorts of detrimental sexism apply to you.
I just want to appear this way because it suits me, it's a preference kind of like all style choices are.

>The thing you need to understand is that your life isn't your own to customize
Vehemently disagree with this, your life is your own, you need to live it the way you want to as much as you can. Sure, there is compromise here and there because we have to get things from others, and some desires are inherently incompatible with others wishes (like wanting to murder someone for example) but that doesn't mean we should subordinate ourselves to some collective will. Do what you want as long as you're not hurting others. The only time this doesn't apply is when you want to get stuff back in a reciprocal manner, that is when you participate in society and receive something in return, otherwise there is no point to it, nothing bounds you to prosocial behaviour aside from your own desires and aspirations, which is fine.

>nor are they particularly crazy about chasing down the opposite sex
Hahaha yeah I think I'm gonna have to disagree there

>If everybody was "selfish" and decided they didn't want to play their sex's part and engage in reproductive mating, then humanity why die out
That's fine, it'll never happen because because lots of people still find those things worthwhile, but there's no reason for me to believe that we need to maintain some specific amount of people alive. If you don't want to reproduce then don't, nothing wrong with it.

You seem to think that the only reason people have kids is because they subordinate themselves to societal requirements but there's lots of reasons to disagree with this, mainly the fact that people find their own meaning in perpetuating existence.

>>7834598
Eh okay so I have a few qualms with this

First off the notion that it is the most feminine ones that are most ill. I do think that in some sense, the more one feels negative about their self appearance then the more likely they are to try to do things to alleviate it, specifically to appear more feminine. There's a certain balance between a desire to project self expression and the mental ability to sublimate this feeling towards other ends, and I think that people mostly follow one or the other, meaning that the more effort they put into looking cute the less time/energy/effort is spent on improving well being in the form of creative enterprise, socialization, meaning-seeking and fulfillment, etc.
In that sense, you are right in observing that the AGPs tend to be more successful and such as they also put in less effort to appear feminine and such, and I probably somewhat fall under this category, however, I think that you're also not taking into account the fact that the inherent qualities that make someone appear feminine and attractive (by this I mostly mean genetic factors) also do not directly mediate the perception transgirls have of themselves.
What I mean by that is, you could have a transgirl that is naturally quite feminine and cute, but doesn't have that much of a strong desire to enhance their looks and instead chooses to do productive things and find happiness in other ways, in that case they are will be one of the more feminine ones while not being very dysphoric and ill. On the other hand, you could have someone that is very unlucky with their appearance in terms of shape and bone structure, and yet still be very dysphoric and neglect other areas of their life, leaving them spending a whole lot of time trying to unsuccessfully appear feminine while not being particularly successful in other ways.
Really it's a mixup, although the general trend you observed is accurate IMO.

That being said you didn't mention what you think of me.

>>7834656
>You're not trans in the first place. You're engaging in a kind of extreme body mod which is going to backfire on us if you ever decide it was a terrible mistake.
Eh I don't know, I still look like a transgirl for the most part and I empathize with a lot of the same wishes and social difficulties, I think I have at least some claim to the label of trans, I don't fundamentally see why being particularly distressed about it is a prerequisite to being claled that.

Sure it is a body modification but all trans treatments are.

Really the thing that I don't understand is, why is it called trans and an illness if you want to change yourself so bad that you're suicidal/depressed, but if you want to change yourself somewhat without being all that down about it, it's no longer considered trans. How does that work?

>Since the 90s, in fact, it hasn't really been higher than the general population
Not accurate, that one Swedish study is indeed shit and got corrected by the author but the suicide attempt rate is still very high

http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS%20Full%20Report%20-%20FINAL%201.6.17.pdf

> Among the starkest findings is that 40% of respondents have
attempted suicide in their lifetime—nearly nine times the attempted suicide rate in the U.S.
population (4.6%).

>>7832774
Op you are simply not trans.

>>7835167
Would I be counted as trans if my mental resilience were weaker and I was depressed over my appearance?

I just don't hate how I look THAT much, but I still want to change it. I think that going on HRT qualifies me for being trans, at least that's what I had to say to the doctor in order to get a prescription

I guess people will never realize it's okay to be a feminine man or a masculine woman because everyone will just tell them they are trans.

>>7835288
Transsexualism

A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex.

You literally said you don't want to be female and that you don't experience dysphoria. Taking hrt doesn't make you trans. Being trans is a certain mental state you don't have.

Why are people so obsessed with being seen as mentally ill. I don't get it.
People like you are why all the special snowflakes call themselves trans today. You want to be so special but sorry, you aren't and you just hurt real trans people.

>>7835315
Wanting to be female isn't a prerequisite though, and neither is a change of identity, that's why they changed the name of it from GID to GD. Wanting to be a girl or not has nothing to do with it

The thing about dysphoria is, it's a temporary negative feeling which is alleviated (presumably) with medication. If you feel "bad enough" by some measure then that constitutes dysphoria and justifies going on HRT or whatever else. After some steps that are taken, the dysphoria is no longer present, but the person is still trans.
Are you saying that once you stop feeling dysphoric after using treatments then you are no longer trans? that seems absurd

My question is, what if this "feeling bad enough" doesn't reach a sufficient threshold for calling it dysphoria, but I still want to change myself, to the point where to an outside observer I just look like another trans girl. Our eventual mental states are similar because we both no longer have dysphoria, so why is it that I can't call myself trans but they can, merely because they felt "bad enough" about it previously?

And no I don't want to be seen as mentally ill, quite the opposite, I want people to stop seeing trans people as being mentally ill, I think it causes stigma and all sorts of bad consequences.

>>7835322
If a trans person is no longer dysporic after transitioning to the wanted gender because they experienced enough changes it just shows that transition was the right call.
I doubt any any trans person can reach that point tho.

Your questions about the threshold is useless. You need to draw the line somewhere.

You want to be a feminine man and not a woman.

>>7835337
>Your questions about the threshold is useless. You need to draw the line somewhere.

Why?

I think the question is totally pertinent for what we conceptualize as trans, right now the requirement of "gender dysphoria" is literally a matter of degree, how bad you feel about not looking like your desired presentation

Hjhjj

>trannies: "HSTS are gay men who transition because it is easier for them to live in the female gender role. They are also TruTrans, unlike AGP hons."
>op: "I didn't overtly hate being a guy, I just transitioned because I like being a girl better"
>trannies: ...
>trannies: "YOU'RE NOT TRANS, YOU'RE JUST A BODY-MODDER. YOU'LL NEVER KNOW THE STRUGGLE. MUH 40% SUICIDE RATE HOW DARE YOU ENCROACH ON OUR LIFESTYLE"

>i would prefer to appear more like a feminine

feminine isn't a gender.

>>7835431
Lol. What a great thread.

OP writes like a man though. So I would gender him as a man.

>>7836302
>OP writes like a man though
haha yeahhh loll, really manly xDDD real girllsss type like thisss :)))) u know rite??? :))

>>7836302
OP also doesn't train his voice. It seems like it's a very AGP hon thing to pretend to write like a girl, in order to affirm their feminnity.

I'm very fascinated by you OP, especially your views you expressed here.
>>7835064
>>7835073
>>7835082
>>7835322

It's inspiring to see someone making decisions to improve their life for themselves, and not to look to others for affirmation.

I for one don't think you're mentally ill at all. You said yourself that your life is great and all your thoughts are very well expressed. I wish I could read more from you. I think a lot of trans people could learn something from you OP.

>>7836352
If you look at reddit, this isn't that far off.

>>7835108
>I don't fundamentally see why being particularly distressed about it is a prerequisite to being claled that.
Because IT'S A DISORDER.

If you take Ritalin to study, but you don't have ADHD, you don't say that you have it because you are taking Ritalin for your own reasons. Why is this difficult?

We don't actually have a word for what you're doing. "Trans," through common usage, has a specific medical connotation.

>that one Swedish study is indeed shit and got corrected by the author
WTF are you talking about?

>attempted suicide in their lifetime
ATTEMPTED. ATTEMPTED.

You can't compare suicide ATTEMPTS to completed suicides. They are NEVER the same thing.

For fuck's sake.

>>7835431
>strawmanning this hard

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>>7835431
Reminder

>>7836302
lol I'm not really sure how you evaluate that but it seems like a pretty weird reason to gender someone. Obviously it's relevant to this thread but I already explained my own status, but otherwise when you are referring to people's writings just gender them as neutral until you know otherwise

>>7836359
Thank you, that means a lot to me. I care deeply about trans issues because it's relevant to more general societal conceptions of gender and especially nowadays because of all the attention to public conventions, bathroom use, pronoun discourse, etc. I think that if you want to try to understand any complex phenomenon you need to specifically look at the ontological periphery, the so called intracategorical approach to intersectionality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality#Categorical_complexity

I've been building up my knowledge of the topic over the years through browsing internet forums, reading literature and taking a few classes about gender/sexuality at university. I also have quite a bit of experience with it myself obviously so I think that my input is fairly worthwhile considering most people (even a lot of actual trans people) don't have a good grasp of the historical discourse built up to this point that positions gender non-conforming people in contemporary society.

The reason I made this thread is because I wanted to get some people commenting on their understanding of trans as mental illness, and whether it is feasible or worthwhile to try to remove the association between them. I think that
that a lot of the detrimental social repercussions that trans people face is because society in general conceptualizes them as sick people that deserve pity, and medical institutions are complicit in disseminating this view as well as in controlling trans people's material wishes which is quite a problem because even where I live (liberal city in Canada) there is no such thing as informed consent.

>>7832774
So you're a homosexual who wants to fuck straight men.

>>7836499
Okay sure, gender dysphoria is a disorder (as much as we can call it that), but does that mean that the definition of trans is effectively "had dysphoria at some point"?

Again, you (or maybe it was a different poster idk) seem to be willing to invoke dysphoria as a prerequisite to being trans, but are then unclear about what happens when this dysphoria disappears after treatment. You haven't explained really explained why having dysphoria -> taking HRT -> appearing as your desired aesthetic and not having dysphoria anymore does indeed count as being trans, but the process of taking HRT -> appearing as your desired aesthetic and not having dysphoria can not be counted as being trans. It seems like the fundamental difference between the two situations is merely what has happened previously, not the current status of the person to whom the label still applies.
Also the fact that defining what dysphoria is can cause some confusion as there is no real measure of it, it's just a very loose quantative measure of how "bad" it is for you. Something like "persistent distress over X months", you don't "become" trans once those X months pass, I think that much is clear, so why does the intensity/duration of the phenomenon really make or break the usage of that label?

Don't you think that being trans is maybe more so defined by how you actually interact with the world on a day-to-day, how your appearance mediates people's perception of you?

>"Trans," through common usage, has a specific medical connotation.
Maybe, but I don't know if it has to stay that way.

>WTF are you talking about?
The author came out against people mischaracterizing the study

>You can't compare suicide ATTEMPTS to completed suicides. They are NEVER the same thing.
Don't know why you're getting so upset over this, you said that it's not been higher than the general population since the 90's or something like that which is blatantly untrue, that's all I pointed out.

>>7839369
I am kinda AGP like that but really it's much more complicated. I don't really sexually discriminate based on sex/gender so the characterization of homosexual is quite false.
You haven't really answered my question though, and didn't provide anything else useful to the thread

>>7832774
How are you not mentally ill for taking prescription medication for a condition you don't qualify for?

I'm inclined to say you're more mentally ill than those who have real problems and use hrt as a medication rather than a fun experience.

>>7839445
Because (mental) illness is for the most part characterized as a condition that is debilitating to regular functioning, being detrimental to daily life and so on.
This is not something that I experience, so I don't know what merit anyone has calling me mentally ill.

>>7832774
Bodybuilders are shamed when they take drugs to change their bodies, so you should be too faggot

>>7839481
I don't know why you would shame bodybuilders for taking drugs, they can be done safely and responsibly and make the person happier, it's not really a big deal.

Also what you said about me is a pretty bad take you should try again

>>7839492
I was referring to steroids, mr no penis

I came to this board to laugh at the gay bashing, and what do I find?

Acceptance.

What the fuck is happening to 4chan?

>>7839513
gay bashing and being mean in general is just so lame, being sincerely nice is the cool position to be in. You should recognize

>>7839513
All the cunts have the night off.
They will be back tomorrow.

>>7839522
I don't care if some fucking tranny cucks on 4chan think I'm cool, a nice, cis white male, sure! But you degenerate fuck monkeys' opinions mean nothing to me

>>7839547
It's not really about anyone's opinion, being unabashedly offensive is just the retired previous dialectical stage, it is time to compile what we have learned and move on to something better. Being unironically pleasant is what we should be striving for, regardless if it is percieved as being cool or not by others (it is though by the way)

Except for when it comes to niggers, I think we can all agree that porch monkeys are human trash and need to die

>>7833765
>>decide that your personal desires and preferences take precedence over your single objective reason for existing as dictated by millions of years of evolution

Actually, genetic analysis has shown that only 40% of males in human history have reproduced, compared to 80% of females.

Unlike females, males are not made for reproducing, they are not the gender for repduction. In hunter-gatherer times they have more purposes than reproduction, such as hunting, building the tribal community, protecting the community from nature. So it's not the end of the world if a male doesn't reproduce... males are biologically expendable anyway.

That's why so many societies had eunuchs at some point, male infertility is no big deal for population growth (there's always another replacement guy to plow the female for you) and eunuchs were useful to society to some extent.

>>7835021
>Just a bunch of sexist tropes about being the sexually receptive partner, not doing the initiating for dating, not having the expectation of doing all the physical work.
It sucks that those things are expected of men.

>over time I've become more aware of how patriarchy affects women's lives and now I have an interest in avoiding sexist treatment,
What patriarchy effects?

>>7839668
kind of the inverse of those things, being approached past comfortable social limits, being seen as incompetent, having people assume your weakness, experiencing disrespect from men, all sorts of other things. It's all very unpleasent and it made me realize that most things that feminists have been saying are accurate. All gender stereotypes suck and they all need to be challenged.

>>7839659
Not only this, the population is almost 8 chucklefucking billion, we have an overpopulation problem and it's harmful to the economy of first and third world countries. We could use more LGBTs to reduce the population back to baby boomer era numbers.

Also, what if transitioning improves your mental health so much that you become a productive member of society, whereas if you were forced to live as a man, you'd be a useless hobo without the motivation to do anything that contributes to society?

Good job OP. This thread has made me actually feel something, thank you
(hint it's disgust)

>>7839691
Oh darn I forgot to remove your name

>>7839691
What exactly made you feel disgusted?

>>7839685
>All gender stereotypes suck and they all need to be challenged.
then stop agreeing with feminists, who deny female privilege and blame misandry on men.

>>7839767
No, there are some points that I do concede to MRAs but they're not because of the things you described.

>>7839739
Jesus

>>7839780
Why not?

What are the points you concede to them?

>>7839789
My criticism of modern liberal feminism mostly stem from a leftist perspective which incorporates class considerations and anti-statism, and it's in those areas which MRAs bring up some point that I have agreement with them.

Things like female privilege a lot of the time just end up being the percieved upside of not having male responsibilities, which I think don't really amount to a privilege.
For example being expected to do less physical work seems like this nice positive thing until you realize it's just the result of the assumption of your lack of capability. Same with being provisioned, "oh you can get people to be nice and support you all the time!" - you know who else gets that treatment? mentally handicapped people, and children. It's really not that much of a positive thing.

Also I agree that misandry is bad and I'll criticize it where it exists but a lot of times it invoked when females make reasonable assumptions about the likelihood of being targeted by sexual criminals, where males are the overwhelming majority. For the most part I think that the women who are very cautious and distrusting of men do have some reason for it, and simply calling it misandry doesn't help. I don't like making this comparison but it's kind of like when people get accused of being racist for identifying that racial minorities are more likely to perpetuate crime

>>7839856
I don't agree with you but thank you for explaining your view.

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>>7835082
Essentially your saying if you make transition your life and become a 1D caricature, it is exactly that neglect in the other aspects of their life which leads to the "mentally ill" label/realities?

A couple of things though. Your trying almost too hard to seem hyper intellectual. I appreciate a diverse vocabulary as much as the next TFemanon, but what is it exactly you hope to achieve here? If you are hoping to broaden the horizons of the denizens of 4chan you are in for a rude awaking.

I also have a question about your philosophy. (or more aptly a comparison) I am legitimately trans and have very little doubt about that. However, like many things in my life, I seek to make the most of every experience.

For me transition is partly an adventure. Exploring new frontiers that most cis men will never enter. I deeply value the perspectives and experiences entirely derived from living in/performing a female role.

Do you go for the adventurer aspect as well?

>>7840302
>Essentially your saying if you make transition your life and become a 1D caricature, it is exactly that neglect in the other aspects of their life which leads to the "mentally ill" label/realities?
Pretty much, I just think it fits with what that poster described as "the most feminine ones being the most ill", it's precisely that effort put into appearance that detracts from their ability to form the mental resilience necessary to be happy in life while trans.

>but what is it exactly you hope to achieve here?
I wanna see what other GSM people think of dissociating trans from mental illness, is it possible? is it worthwhile?
I don't really expect to seriously change minds here or anything like that, but maybe get some people thinking about this by inserting the notion into discourse.

>Do you go for the adventurer aspect as well?
Yeah definitely.
As I mentioned earlier I don't really live "as a female" for the most part because I still get gendered male casually by acquaintances at work and university and stuff like that, but I still look different enough to not have the same life experience as regular men. I like trying to inhabit this sort of in-between space and having it done in the contemporary social climate is just endlessly fascinating and fun to me.

>>7833105
really because I thought that was what doctors have been doing

>>7839389
>but does that mean that the definition of trans is effectively "had dysphoria at some point"?
Yes. That is the definition.

You don't seem to be aware, so let me make it more clear: you've walked right into the middle of the "truscum" vs. Tumblr tranny debate - the latter group is the one who believes you do not need dysphoria to be trans. We originally accepted those people in the trans community...but they have proven to be immensely harmful.

>but are then unclear about what happens when this dysphoria disappears after treatment.
I take Dexedrine for my ADHD. I don't have symptoms while treated. And? You could take Dex to study with, and maybe we'd end up looking similar in terms of behaviour. I still have ADHD and you don't.

>why does the intensity/duration of the phenomenon really make or break the usage of that label?
For the benefit of the people diagnosing you.

You don't "become" depressed only after six months of being depressed. The temporal requirement on the diagnosis is to help rule out other, more transient causes of a depressed mood.

>The author came out against people mischaracterizing the study
I'm aware. You made it sound as though something's wrong with the study (there isn't) and the author has done something to correct her previous findings (she hasn't).

>Don't know why you're getting so upset
I hate people making stupid basic mistakes over and over. It's a character flaw.

>you said that it's not been higher than the general population since the 90's or something like that which is blatantly untrue
It is not untrue. That is what the Swedish study found: our POST-OP suicide RATES have not been higher than the general population to a statistically significant degree since the 90s.

Suicide ATTEMPTS, again, ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Not only is "lifetime risk" vs. "post-op" two different things, but attempts vs. completed suicides correlate more poorly than you'd expect.

People mix these up all the time. They are different numbers!

>>7835021
>>7835064
>>7835073
I have a resonant experience along these lines. I also have to reject the belief that trans is intrinsically mentally ill and that there is no way to change the role you have been placed into without being deviant and despicable. These are just tools created by those that are too deep in the whole of self-loathing and self-deprecation to find a way to better themselves, so they must demonize others to make someone, anyone that that they can feel they are better than.

I also have had a general case where everything I have done is only to improve my life in every facet. I have been transitioning for 1.8 years, but I didn't just start taking HRT, I also started exercising, eating more healthily, started a plan to get all of my dental issues solved, and a myriad of other smaller improvements.

I have watched my social life flourish from nothing. I have been in a loving relationship with a guy for a year and a half now. I am engaged in the community planning events and working on ways to improve life for everyone. I have a plan to raise a family after I finish the two major surgeries I have lined up. There is a major dental one coming at the end of the year that I have to look forward to, but next month is my upcoming SRS.

Going into my relationship, I had no idea how I would feel about what I had down there. I had never really had an occasion to really explore and find out with an actual partner that just cared about me. And so I experimented. And so I came to the conclusion it wasn't for me as it is. I decided that getting SRS was worth it for the health benefits alone, both medical and mental, since it would lower my liver impact from medication, and it would lower my social anxiety through worrying about whether it was in the proper positioning still. I also was interested in finding a safer and cleanlier way to have sex, and so that is also a reason. No external pressure at all.

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>>7841609
I have tried to get to the bottom of public perception of trans people for a while now. Specifically MTF trans people get a drastically different reception from FTM.

Along these lines, the real world perception is still drastically different from what people spout on 4chan.

I commend you for actually trying to do something though. Honestly mental illness isn't even the biggest stigma. I find that there is really just a blind hate for MTFs here. Particularly from the cis lesbians who post. Transbians get double dumped for seemingly no reason again. (After all it is just another orientation/gender combo, why does it get special discrimination.)

It is almost as if the community made a collective agreement to shun MTFs. I think that it is the same shunning that gays initially experienced. No one is threatened by FTMs because people are transphobic assholes and still see them as women. (or they blend so well that they don't make waves.)

Because people still see transwomen as men, they are seen as degenerates for "dragging down the male gender/being beta." Except that it shows the fundamental lack of what a trans person is.

I think many people who undergo transition (especially lately) do it for their own reasons. However, there are also many people who see transition a false "escape" from their current lives. Only to discover their life is still mostly as shallow and dead as it was before but with tits (hopefully).

These are the people who commit suicide. The ones who think grass is going to be greener and aren't happy with the other side. People should still transition if they feel that is what they need. They should also focus on improving other aspects of their life like, "Friends, Job, Hobbies etc."

For me I am really taking time to focus on getting my career and art on track. As I improve my art I feel better about myself and my need for flawless passing becomes less important. (I still put effort in and am happy with where I am now.)

>>7843606
I really find it interesting that I have found so much hatred here in the online world, but the exact opposite outside in reality. It almost makes me wonder if the more generally hateful portion of our species is that which inhabit these nebulous realms.

>>7843606
>I have tried to get to the bottom of public perception of trans people for a while now. Specifically MTF trans people get a drastically different reception from FTM.
can you post a little about what you've found out?

>>7845670
Spoilers: FtMs get female privilege, MtFs get male shaming.

You're mentally ill if you believe that you should change the appearance of your gender just because you like things that society has deemed feminine.

>>7845746
What do you think life is like for a feminine male?

>>7845746
You're mentally ill if you label all of the things you find gross mental illness.

>>7832774
AGPPPPPP

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>>7843606
Wrote a longer response but it literally comes down to the fact FTMs pass WAY easier while MTFs basically fight to EVER pass. So FTMs are seen either women or men, transwomen are always seen as transwomen. And straight guys are way more likely to consider transwomen sexually than straight women are to consider transmen sexually- And for straight dudes it threatens their masculinity (rooted in homophobia) far more than the femininity of a straight woman is threatened by being with a transguy. Society generally considers women and children to be more helpless than men, and men far more likely to be predators women need to be protected from.So MTFs are evaluated as a threat to women and children, while no one considers FTMs to be a threat to dudes and even if they were its assumed a man should be able to defend himself.


It honestly does mirror sexism : women aren't taken seriously enough so nothing they do matters, and men are taken far too seriously so everything they do matters

>>7846038
Forgot an image will repost in a sec.

>>7845899
I'd like to read the longer response.
t. not the person who asked the question

>>7845746
>liking feminine things
that shit is gay as fuck i play my vidya and watch my sports as a qt girl, thank you very much

>>7846062
>caring about sports and not liking feminine things
I bet you don't even crossdress.

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>>7846042
>>7845670
It is ultimately about the unknown. I wrote a poem type things about it when I was younger.

>May 5th 2006
That which we do not understand we fear, that which we fear we attempt to control, that which

we cannot control we attempt to distroy, that which we attempt to distroy and fail, destroys

us...

"The Law of Human Nature" (could be considered an edit of the above information)

That which we do not understand, we seek to control. That which we cannot control, we fear.

That which we fear, we (attempt to) destroy. That which we (attempt to) destroy, is ourselves...

Essentially the majority of normal people don't understand us. We think the education is out there but it isn't. The idea has been pushed that there is this one true trans narrative. That is like saying all black people have the same narrative. It is just an utter falsehood.

They don't understand us, and what our existence means to them. They ask themselves are they right? Are we right? Is there a right?

It comes back to them not knowing. So they want to destroy/control us. In modern society they can't out right put trans people to death or otherwise penalize them. Especially when they have no way of predicting who is going to come out trans next. So instead they keep us down and ensure we are sterilized. HRT SRS etc takes care of things.

This person also has things very right.
>>7845899
>It honestly does mirror sexism : women aren't taken seriously enough so nothing they do matters, and men are taken far too seriously so everything they do matters

4chan doesn't really allow enough room to really explore a topic like this. Maybe I will record a vocal thing on clypt or something and upload that later when my partner isn't home. haha.

>>7846114
thanks for the response.

that seems about right, though i think in a lot of cases there's something more than just simply not understanding or being educated about trans people. like even on this board, people come and make inflammatory argument-bait threads all the time, and when given well-written explanations, facts and sources, they still refuse to change their stance 99% of the time. and obviously the same thing happens in the real world as well.

>>7832774
Since Freud transgender people have been known to be psychotics, what's there to argue?

>>7846158
>Freud
>having any validity or merit

>>7846051
I'm exhausted so I probably can't do the subject fair justice.

Both genders have their own issues it's stupid to argue over which has it worst. The 'privileges' of sexism come at a cost. Sexism that works against you gives you an advantage in a different context. Any benefit comes at a cost somewhere else, most people's views on sexism are skewed depending on what pros and cons apply to your life.

I'm an ftm in an engineering/medical field so of course being male is more beneficial to me than being a woman. Things traditionally valued in women are often contrary to skills that benefit you in a professional setting.

For women, incompetence is assumed but tolerated. You will never be taken as seriously but any failure or weakness will at worst only be fulfilling what was expected of you. You will be less punished for your mistakes but your success will be less rewarded and you'll be given less credit for your accomplishments. There is a glass ceiling that holds you back, but a glass floor that protects you.

For men, competency is assumed and expected. Your gender is very low on the list of things considered when evaluating your performance. Your success won't be limited but your failure will have far more consequences. There's no limit to how high you can go but there's no limit to how far you can fall.

I only make this point because basically, being a transwoman is seen as a man failing, which is far worse than a woman failing. Even worse, they face the same sexism as women too, so they're viewed as more incompetent and unstable. But we're not done yet! Even when its warranted, defending themselves means being judged for being assertive as a female and somehow simultaneously hurting their validity as women because their behavior will be perceived as unfeminine. And to top it off their apparent failure of femininity will be judged more harshly because men are judged more harshly. -c-

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>>7846385
Tired so I'm going to passout but that's actually a perfect example of transguy's side of transphobia: nobody gives a fuck about ftms

We're invisible, basically. Which is both a blessing and a curse. It more closely mimics the issues men deal with in that its not that men deal with more issues than women, but they get less support.


I would sum up how genders are viewed as:

Cis men: big risk, big reward, predators
Cis women: low risk, low reward, infants
Trans women: big risk, low reward, viewed as infiltrating predators pretending to be infants, a threat to actual infants
Transmen: big risk, big reward. if outed, viewed as infants playing dressup that are no threat to actual predators

pic related, its very strange witnessing these exact occurrences as a stealth ftm

>>7832774
You haven't gotten a single proper response and it's really impressive.

The real answer to
>So tell me /lgbt/, can you be trans and not be mentally ill? did what I do even constitute as me being trans?

Yes.

Being transgender is not a mental illness. The vast majority of trans people, and especially the traditional ones have a mental illness. Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness. But, you don't need gender dysphoria to be transgender, and being trans isn't equivalent to having gender dysphoria.

Transgender is a social grouping when you break it down. It doesn't have an inherently medical definition.

>>7846444
>>7846385
Wow, this analysis seems spot on, the first and last points especially. I don't know if I've ever seen the situation worded in this way before.

Thanks for taking the time to respond

That OP pic is so fucking stupid.
>'bipolar'? You really mean 'mentally ill'!
Yeah. A specific one. What's your fucking point?

The way some people use the term 'mental illness' to mean 'imaginary' is fucking incredible. Like schizophrenics just need to stop daydreaming.

>>7842906
Apparently there are several brands of hormone supplements you can take now. I wonder how much of an influence they have on doctors... and if it's financial.

>>7851994
there are also many very expensive conversion therapy services available despite their having an extremely low success rate, but i'm sure they're just operating out of the goodness of their hearts

>>7846385
>You will be less punished for your mistakes but your success will be less rewarded and you'll be given less credit for your accomplishments.
Examples of these for women?

What the fuck is an AGP?
Is this some slangword for ageplay fetishists or some shit?

>>7857553
auto gynephelia, I think, or whatever. it's apparently a fetish which is being one who gets sexual gratification imagining yourself as woman, as you can see if you fall in this camp at all then you are not a true trans person and deserve ridicule.

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>>7832774

Trans is not a homogeneous community. Many have varying mental illnesses, often including self/body-hatred. Many live out a fetish that's not necessarily a disorder.

You're one of the trans who are not mentally ill.

If you claim to be a woman however (when out), you're a narcissistic asshole with no respect for female people as a political class.

>>7857556

There are no "true trans" people.

Trans is a social construction and a state of being entered by choice: by proclaiming to be it, changing your clothing, mannerisms, etc., and ultimately taking chemicals and maybe even having surgery done on your genitals.

What you have in mind is "gender dysphoria" which is a condition one doesn't choose to get into, and even then it's a syndrome (cluster of symptoms) and not a condition with a concrete essence leading to it. Neither does it have a single solution, as some people end up desisting and learning to cope with their sexual anatomy. Some people develop dysphoria because of extreme AGP fetish. Some seem to develop it because of body/self-hatred focused on their sexual anatomy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminine_essence_concept_of_transsexuality

>>7857570
I dont care.

>>7851994
Hormone treatments are cheap as fuck dude. I pay 50$ for 3 months of pills. Therapy sessions are a fuckload more than that and if doctors and therapists were prescribing those instead they'd be making more.

>>7833765
>the only purpose any living animal has is to pass on its genes
>any living animal

What about the drones in ant or bee hives?

>>7833765
Trans people are such a tiny, tiny minority. The world isn't going to suffer a major population crash because trannies aren't making babies anymore.

>>7832774
You are the sanest poster of this board.

>>7857659
They pass on 'their' genes that are shared with the queen by aiding her reproduction.

>>7857663
This is true but humanity is still instinctively going to react with fear and revulsion. Purely out of biological programming. Imagine there was a virus that rendered people permanently infertile. Only 1% of the population had it. Nobody knew how it spread or if it was contagious. What would happen to those 1% of people? They'd be quarantined away from everyone and isolated, nobody would want to near them and risk being associated with a death sentence like that. This is essentially what happens to trans people; people don't want to hire them, don't want them to use restrooms, don't want to date them, don't want them near children, don't want them in public, don't want to be near them at all, basically a soft quarantine.

>>7857633
That's cute. For just my progesterone and estrogen of my medicine it is 420$ (I know right) for 2 months.

Shit is expensive.

>>7858168
I don't see anyone hating priests and monks and the like who have taken vows of celibacy.

>>7834797
> I cannot fathom at this point how the authors of that study haven't gone on a shooting spree.
It's simple, anon. They threw away their internet modems and stuck to playing Spider Solitaire and drawing cartoon penises in MS Paint.

>>7858978
Where do you live? I'm in the US and spiro+estradiol is 50$ for 3 months.

>>7845788
Yeah I think I started off as AGP to some point, but really there's much more to being trans. I'm interested in appearing gender non-conforming outside of sex, my libido isn't even high anyways.

>>7846158
Actually there's plenty of stuff that happened before Freud, I reckon that the medical institutionalizing of sexuality began more than a century before Freud was around and can be traced back more or less to principles of modernity.
That being said, of course it's considered illness to begin with, but it can't be dissociated from the effects of the social environment. The status of homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness too until various research was done on people's pschyosexual proclivities and cognitive performance and things like that. It showed that they're not fundamentally different than regular people in terms of performance and the view shifted towards their negative feelings as a result of accepting the status or label of 'homosexual', this was the revision of the clinical diagnosis into "ego-dystonic homosexuality" in which the illness itself is considered to be the manifestation of the negative social effects, low self-esteem, higher stress, all correlating with familial rejection, substance abuse, etc. A similar trend can be seen in trans people, the conceptualization of it has already changed from GID to GD, signifying a shift from a fundamental issue of identity towards being an issue of phenomenologically deleterious experiences and perception.
I can see how in coming years, the exposure of trans-related issues as well as increased access to health-care and general understanding will lead to an even more loose definition of this particular condition, maybe even taking it out of the DSM. Of course, whether the DSM will actually matter to people further on is also questionable as is the existence of most contemporary institutions, but you get my point.

>>7858168
I mean we sort of have something like that now but it's genetic. Polycystic ovaries can cause you to go nearly infertile or kill you through pregnancy. Doesn't really affect males but I would imagine they can still pass the genes down.

>>7859140
this

>>7832774
i cant find any answers anywhere.
WHY do you feel the need to be the opposite of male. that is your gender

>>7846385
I've heard an analysis along these lines before and I mostly agree with it. It's always nice to hear from the perspective of FtMs as well, especially when they confirm the transsexual line of experiencing traditional sexism in society, if there's anyone that can provide feedback on it it is the people that kinda know both sides.

>>7851748
Yeah I tend to agree, I think that it's fundamentally a claim about your sexual-social identity, which includes your gender expression and how it interacts with your sexual proclivities, specifically in the way your body feels and what sort of perception it creates.

>>7857561
I don't think that's necessarily true, whether I am useful towards the ends of feminism or not depends more so on how I express and enact my political opinions, being percieved as a woman and admitting it for a temporary amount of time doesn't really hurt that, depending on the context. I would agree if it was some scenario such as applications for scholarships or anywhere else where privilege (which I completely recognize as my per my male socialization) would be the justification for its existence. I actually wanna be able to go out with my friends or partner and be percieved as female without it being an issue because it can make things easier, and even then whether I say I am a woman or not doesn't really matter as much as what people will incidentally perceive once they interact with me. If someone straight up asks me whether I am a woman or not I would probably go into detail of explaining my status, obviously applies if I'm gonna have sexual relations with anyone as well.

>>7858168
>Imagine there was a virus that rendered people permanently infertile
there are plenty of illnesses that render people infertile. different types of cancer, infection, even just genetic defects. involuntarily infertile people are sometimes treated like shit, but they're not usually feared and despised.

being trans is absolutely not contagious. there's no reason to quarantine them. the reasons people discriminate against them are almost innumerable, complicated and impossible to summarize quickly, but being infertile is, if anything, a very very very small part of it.

also, not all trans people are infertile. it takes months to years of hormones for most of them to become completely unable to conceive. some trans men can even get pregnant and carry children years into transition.

>>7857570
Blanchard disagrees with you though >>7839181

>>7858108
I do my best

>>7858168
A fair amount of people either can't or don't want to have kids, I don't necessarily think it's that which makes regular people despise trans people so much. Obviously that is part of the component, a sort of ableist bias, but not having kids is most significant to your own family and how they value you. That is a significant part of the reason gay and trans people get a hard time and it's often neglected in places where the social climate is more tolerant of GSM people, you can still have individuals with particularly angry families even though most casual peers around them are nothing but welcoming, it's a pretty weird existence and especially deleterious if you're young and still materially dependent on family.

I think what you are describing though, that sort of social ostracization, has a lot more to do with the how trans people are percieved in the aesthetic sense. The revulsion that regular people experience at a burly man tarnishing some thin coloured outfit meant for a girl is not mainly to do with some percieved lack of fertility, but a direct assault on a very deliberately crafted aesthetic sense that people construct. Of course, there is also the fear of them memetically infecting others and reproducing themselves which is present, and causes the mistrust especially around kids. Trans people inhabiting socially advantageous civil positions is an affront to a gendered hierarchy that shapes delineation of power. The hate that trans people receive in society is really accumulated from many factors, and I'm not convinced that the institutionalization of the condition for medical purposes is the best way to improve conditions for people that have these feelings.

>>7865563
I didn't say I want to be the "opposite" of male. I like some aspects of masculinity but I have issue with people strongly perceiving me as male, especially when they misuse that perception in order to misunderstand my intentions or desires. The "opposite" of male being female is also not desirable, for other sexist reasons, it's not always worthwhile to be percieved as female. In that sense, I don't want to be specifically male or female, I see the fundamental issues in both and adjust my actions accordingly.

I think that in terms of my own body, I want to a appear in a particular way I enjoy seeing and feeling, it's a sort of aesthetic notion of what my corporeality is. That is precisely why I am on HRT.