I used to identify as male but now am cis-female

>>7819118
The only hormones you can take as a teen are blockers anyway, which mostly just hold off the effects of puberty, no where near as strong as T.
So you wouldn't have been as fucked if you changed your mind later.

Just a note though: just because you changed your mind doesn't mean everyone will. There are a lot of FtMs who wish they even got to start blockers before T.
Don't act like your story applies to everyone.

>>7819118
stop this meme that they give actual hormones to children, you can't start HRT as a kid, and normally it's after 16 that they do anyway (at least here, but i think it applies in most countries). and there isn't much difference between 18 and 16 if you ask me, plus not everybody is you. for every case like yours, thousands of others would have given anything to start before puberty wrecked them, which would have improved their life consistently. your own story applies to you, and it's good to let kids know both sides, but it's not a reason to revoke the privilege of choice.

>>7819154
I am not acting like it applies to everyone. read the last sentence of my 3rd paragraph. I even imply that I am probably the extreme minority.

>>7819184
Please read the last sentence of my 3rd paragraph. Also at 18 I thought I was male. Furthermore, I never said they give children HRT. Find the exact place where I said that.

Yes, if you're actually going by DSM criteria, the vetting process produces a very low number of false positives (and a tiny percentage of people who transition as adults regret it; there's no way to rule that out 100%).

When you say that you "wanted to be a boy," it's just kind of unclear what you mean, or how well you'd suit the Dx. WHY did you want to be a boy? WHAT did you dislike about your body, and why?

It's been noted before in the literature that children who say, "I want to be a boy/girl" are more likely to grow up cisgender adults than those who say, "I AM a boy/girl" (who virtually never do).

>>7819187

I asked if i would EVENTUALLY get hormone therapy before I figured it all out. I didnt ask if i would immediately get it.

>Would I eventually get hormone therapy before I figured out I was wrong about myself?

>>7819214
for me being female didn't feel right. To me the alternative was being male, which did feel right. Males are encouraged to do sports (i loved sports), not act feminine (I hate feminitty even today), different clothes, different social role, just everything about being male was right to me. To me being female was wrong. It should be noted that as an asexual I kind of lack a sexuality. I do not see male or female in a sexual light. I only see them as different in terms of physical ability (i identified with male physical ability), social roles (i identified with male social roles), and physical body (i identified with male physical body).

>>7819217
I don't think any of us here can say
I figured that was a rhetorical question because it requires knowing more about you than you did at the time.

>>7819214
>>7819246
These days I identify with male physical ability (i work out a lot to maintain that), male social roles, but a female physical body.

>>7819246
unless you had a feeling of disconnect with your body or extreme discomfort about your female body parts, you wouldnt be able to get hormones unless you bought them ilegally, since you dont have dysphoria. being a tomboy doesnt make you male

>>7819256
You're a dumbass.
Social rules and muscles don't define a man.
I mean, good thing you didn't seek treatment, but you have a very skewed idea of gender and dysphoria.

>>7819251
If that is the case then now I want to know if people like me are acceptable casualties. There are always casualties when it comes to these kinds of things. Sometimes they are acceptable. Sometimes they are not. If it sounds like I am heavily implying that they are not acceptable then you are mistaken. I am open to the possibility these casualties are acceptable but I need convincing.

>>7819265
I developed breasts very very late in my life. I was always afraid in my childhood of developing breasts. If I had developed them then I can assure you that gender dysphoria would have been the result. I was so afraid of getting breasts.

>>7819273
tell me what defines a man then. also when you say "goo thing you didn't seek treatment" what do you think would have happened if I had.

>>7819246
Okay. From that description, no, you do not fit the Dx criteria. Your description almost entirely revolves around conforming to social role - which is relatively common in childhood, and not a disorder.

Wanting to be stronger physically is not the same thing as being extremely distressed by your genitals, attempting to pee the "wrong" way or hurt your genitals, being extremely distressed by secondary sex characteristics that emerge at puberty (FtM here, I made many comments to my mother about taking a knife to my breasts at 12-13), etc.

If you experienced THOSE things, you might have had a childhood Dx, although if you vacillated in how certain you were that you were a boy, I don't think it would have gone much past blockers.

>>7819265
as an asexual less genitals were better for me. But everything else about having a male body was ideal to me. Everything down to the body chemistry and skeletal system (I was a huge nerd).

>>7819301
Okay, follow up since you posted more since I posted this:

WHY were you afraid of growing breasts? These are personal questions, but it is something a therapist would ask you.

Would you think they were alien and disgusting? If you are asexual, would you be more afraid of being treated as a sexual being?

If you don't mind them now, how are you certain you would have not been okay with them at the time?

>>7819301
but i also identified with male physical body. I hated the female body. I wanted a male one so badly. and i never vacillated.

>>7819317
So what changed?

>>7819316
I know i would have hated having breasts because I idolized women who didnt have them and was very very afraid of growing them.

I was afraid of growing them because they are female and not male. They are lumps of fat without muscle. They get in the way. They are big. I hated them. Also in my teens I was incredibly fearful of being treated sexually. It resulted in a lot of heartache. As an asexual I never figure out how someone felt about me until it was too late. When I figured it out I would cry for a long long time and would be extremely disturbed. I believed that with a male body I could ward these advances off.

With a female body came extreme self-confidence issues. I hated my non-male body. I cried a lot because of it. the girls were happy being girls but i wasn't. Having a female body made me inferior.

>>7819336
What changed? It was the realization that "Hey! MY breasts are pretty small! And oh my god sports bras are amazing and i can wear the all the time! Also a female body is more challenging than a male one!" You see I am an ultra-competitive person and something I realized was that I craved challenge. A female body is more challenging than a male one. Also having testicles and penis are the REAL liability. Manspreading isn't cool or badass. It is the result of a liability between your legs. Also I realized that with a female body I can be WAY more intimidating than a male ever could because I get to break all the rules and conventions (I rarely intimidate people on purpose though). The challenge is incredible. Also men are shocked when they see what I can pull of with a female body and they love my can-do spirit. Their surprise brings me happiness.

>>7819364
you just sound like you had extreme problems with body image and being taken seriously when you were younger. sorry if this is too personal or rude, but were you ever abused when you were younger? that might be the source of your disgust with a female body and wanting a male one since you percieved it as less "sexual" and strong enough to keep away anyone who was dangereous to you.

>>7819392
I guess I hated a female body as a child and teen because it ran contrary to my ideal way of life all the way down to the cellular level. Your dysphoria involved genitals. Mine involved things so small and wide-spread that i was powerless to fix them. HRT would have brough me so much closer. The testosterone alone would have changed so much.

>>7819392
Agreeing with the other anons that you never experienced dysphoria, you just had poor body image.
Kinda the fine line between a tomboy and a transman.

>>7819397
oh no! quite the opposite. I was daddy's little girl. He treated me like a son! I loved it. He made me do strenuous physical activity (which I loved) at the age of 5 that would bring any boy my age to their knees and even some adults. I loved it so much. But as I grew older I realized that it wouldnt last and dad seemed accepting of that. The gap between me and the boys was growing and I learned that it would continue. I did not accept it. So then I studied the difference between girls and boys obsessively. It was puberty that changed things. Puberty would turn me into a person with a woman's body. Not a male body! I hated having a female body. As an asexual I only gave a shit about testicles because I knew that testosterone came from there. Otherwise I didnt give a damn about genitals. I did care about the body because of the differences in physical ability that would result. I cared so much about that. All the time.

>>7819392
Okay. First of all, I want to thank you, in a way, for saying, "am I an acceptable casualty?" I have had to ask that question in other areas of my life, and I know that it is a VERY tough question, with a lot of inherent ugliness to it, and it requires emotional strength and a lot of maturity to ask it.

I've run into women before who say, "I would have been diagnosed as a tranny as a kid!" In most cases, it takes about 30 seconds of talking to them to determine that they're full of shit - they were just little girls who liked trucks or whatever, and they are outraged over nothing.

Your case is more ambiguous. There are subtle red flags to it that makes me say I hope a therapist would pick up on you not being as clear-cut a case. I can't say for sure what might have happened, though. Mental health professionals can be good, or they can be terrible.

I DO think it sounds a bit like you might have some childhood abuse in your background...a whiff of that is something that would generally delay transition, as a therapist would want to sort through that first. Any possibility that a child is looking to change sex because they were traumatized as their birth sex is a contraindication for transition.

And, tbqh...you don't sound like a "normal" cis woman to me even now. Being happy with your breasts only because you can hide them doesn't exactly sound non-dysphoric.

>>7819448
This is getting annoyingly cyclical.
>x question that a therapist would ask
>"I just wanted to be muscular and strong like the other boys!!!"

You're a tomboy. Simple as that.
What else is there to discuss.

>>7819427
but it wasn't just about body image to me. It was about chemistry. I wanted a male body-chemistry. That was what I identified with. It is hard to explain as an asexual. As an asexual I didnt care about penis or vagina or whatever. If i had known HRT was a thing it would have given me everything I wanted. The sexual reassignment surgery would have been unnecesary.

>>7819392
> Manspreading isn't cool or badass. It is the result of a liability between your legs
Not really, it's because of the difference in hips.

>>7819462
did you just want to be muscular or did you want a male body type? did you hate your hips? did you think your shoulders were too small? did it make you uncomfortable that your face was a female face? did periods make you feel like a freak in your own body? i understand you might not have sex dysphoria because youre asexual (even though you can still be dysphoric about many things outside of having sex), but just wanting to be strong and muscular and not have big breasts doesnt mean you wanted a male body. you just wanted an athletic female body.

>>7819448
Same person as >>7819451
again, and oooooh, yeah, that explains a lot. A lot.

Are you on the autism spectrum, by any chance? Viewing gender a bit differently is apparently rather common in people on the spectrum. Discussing how you wanted to be male at a "cellular level" reminds me a lot of how my Aspie friends see things.

>>7819118
>>7819392
They use blockers with teens, those are reversible
> after you leave the teenage years
All the studies prove that once you do that the mortality rate for trans skyrockets to 41% and you get horrible outcomes in terms of death mortality and other markets compared to ones who got blockers

http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

>>7819479
periods happend very late in life. Tbh I probably woulda thought bleeding was pretty badass....

I wanted a male body type. With that all possibilities would result. I was proud of my hips. I thought i had excellent and highly functional ones (such a weirdo amirite?). So good that it went beyond male or female. My shoulders have always been broad. My face made me uncomfortable because i though I was ugly (these days i think i am of unparalled beauty and i will never admit that it is because of my enormous ego even thought that is totally why I feel that way). Having a male face had nothing to do with a male body imo. No an athletic female body wouldnt work. it would still be female (i was ignorant of the the virtues of challenge back then and how amazing it is to compete against males who have overwhelming advantage).

>>7819507
nah no autism here. While it is more common among asexuals I have been thoroughly vetted for it. I am just an extreme nerd. But if I was autistic I fail to see the relevance. It wouldn't have necesarily made my thought process less... credible.

>>7819451
thank you for this post btw. I feel a little better knowing that I might be unusual. I would have been a challenge for even the best therapists. I am very open to the possibility of being an acceptable casualty and the idea that i really could have been mis-diagnosed brings me closure in a weird way. It just makes me a little sad. No. It makes me very sad. Sad for myself an for others.

>>7819528
Tranny doubts aside, why do you sound like you have mental issues? Or maybe artificial ego-boosting to deny the fact you're too late to turn out well as a ftm, and you know you missed out, so you're going full blown "I love challenges! A female body is amazing for that! I-I swear it's for the challenge!"

>>7819473
I didnt know that! But from what I know about hips I think women have better ones on account of flexibility, wideness, and the capacity to give birth (my criteria are weird).

>>7819528
so what you basically said was: no dysphoria about hips, shoulders, periods, sex characteristics and insecurity about face thats not related to it not being masculine. what male body type things did you want then? beside "being strong and muscular" which doesnt work since cis women can be that (and have a masculine looking chest so the "not wanting a big chest" argument also falls apart). you just sound like you want a masculine body type instead of a male body type

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>>7819118
>>7819540

>a teenage boy buying blackmarket blockers and pills they should've gotten legitly is the ultimate evil
>but deadly contraceptives that have killed thousands of girls with embolisms and irreversible surgical need to be taxpayer subsidized
Femgen here, this is why I'm proud I voted for Trump and helping the prolife movement in my state.


You openly say that we're no better than animals and deserve no body autonomy whatsoever.

But your filthy groups that kill thousands of teens with bloodclot causing contraceptives given as otcs with no safeguards are saintly and deserve taxpayer support.

I won't stand for this slavery. Not only do I have no rights but you're pillaging us and robbing us for your special privileges.

We won't stop till planned parenthood is defended and suffocates without its taxpayer funds. Till all title X and all its special intrest subsidies for family planing are gone.

And definitely not till otc status for contraception is removed. Till teens are bared from taking deadly pills and abortion and irreversible stuff is banned for anyone under 18 and adults find it as hard and costly to get as trans care.

Prolife is finally wining and we'll take away all the toys you slave drivers have. You'll live like us now.

>>7819527
If the blockers are truly reversible then this is acceptable. If they are not then given this gruesome statistic this brings credence to the possibility that people like me are acceptable casualties.

>>7819154
>>7819184

early transitioner ftm here, they didn't start me on blockers because I used to have a fear of needles and they said it would be unnecessary. I started at 15 years old and started therapy at 11, 2 years after coming out. I live in a fairly conservative area too.
The only thing I regret is not forcing them to give me hormone blockers at least a year into therapy (12 years old).

>>7819570
If you don't mind me asking please tell me more about this regret. Why do you regret waiting and how old are you now?

>>7819569
That 41% morality only happens from late treatment.

What you want to force.

The mortality is no higher than general pop with blockers that's what the studies prove.


You think exterminating nearly half of us is an aceptable loss you sick bastard.

>>7819569
they are, its literally just delayed puberty. some kids naturally have a delayed puberty and dont have it until theyre 16+, so its no more damaging to kids on blockers than them (even less damaging really, since they have doctors monitoring their status and making sure nothing goes haywire). i know a cis person who didnt get their period until they were 17 and they turned out completely fine (albeit a bit short but idk if thats genetics or not)

>>7819584
If I had started hormone blockers at 12, I would have never had to deal with periods in my life as they started at 12/13. I also would have never developed breasts and I've brought knives to my breasts before.

Im most likely younger than you.

>>7819569
http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

Idiot, the study proves that WITHOUT Blockers 41% die. They don't die with blockers

>>7819560
no i needed it to be male. Down to the cellular level. The possibilities as a male would have been endless. Male hormones were not a means to an end. They were the end. They changed everything. If you asked me about dysphoria I coulnt point to a body part. Only to a bio textbook. It is hard to explain. I didn't care about how I looked. I cared about what was on the inside. I knew that no matter how hard you train a female body it will not become as strong as it would have been had you been male. It was unacceptable to me back then. Nowadays I love the challenge. To me having a female body epitomizes challenge better than a male body can in most cases. Challenge has become a core part of my identity. That is why I identify with female body.

>>7819595
what are you talking about?!? I said if the statistics are true then people like ME are more likely to be acceptable casualties so people like YOU do not suffer because you outnumber people like me. Holy shit.

>>7819569
>>7819118
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/132/4/66

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025417/

Reminder that contraceptives are given over the counter to children with no health exams what so ever.

And they kill or permanently disable more than 1 in 2000 girls under 18 a year, when they're in perfect health. It's even more atrocious with at risk.

Do you think the mass deaths of children are an aceptable loss for your contraception?

You bloody child killer. You lead to the deaths of thousands for your selfish cause and yet you call us monsters?

>>7819609
I'm pretty tall. What you are describing sounds just like me. It gives me an odd sense of pride knowing that my naturally delayed puberty is something other people aspire to.

>>7819649
We don't die unless we don't get treatment http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

Proves that what you want will lead to the deaths of half of us. You consider our extermination an aceptable thing because some reversible blockers offend you

>>7819649
Nobody ever died from blockers but they prevent many deaths and are reversible

Thousands of kids have died from contraception and you cheat that and call those deaths aceptable.


Why is it that harmless blockers are evil but birth control death pills are aceptable?

>>7819638
idk what that is, but it sure isnt what dysphoria feels like. or well, fits the general description but you somehow managed to throw your entire body image out of the issue somehow. you might want to talk to an actual psychiatrist since you seem to have had a huge "obsession" with those things and it might allude to some mental illness (bpd? bdd? i have no idea)
>>7819658
people dont "aspire" to have a naturally delayed puberty, people just "prefer" to have a delayed puberty until the "grownups" are sure their child isnt going through a phase and is actually trans. its just a way to make sure trans kids are actually trans, and trust me, none of them wouldve preferred that over just getting the hormones they needed in the first place.

>>7819638
Out of curiosity, how does it feel that no matter how much you try, men can physically outperform you with little effort?

>>7819677
I meant aspire in the sense of you don't want puberty to happen because it is the wrong one (which is how I felt about myself).

>>7819683
pfft. First off these days I outperform almost EVERYONE with little effort. Second of all your perspective of outperformance is skewered. Try outperforming women without the testosterone or skeletal system or whatever. Performance is relative to the circumstances. Ignoring circumstances is ignorant and leads to intellectual poverty. In my book challenge is king and the female body is where it is at. Challenge comes more naturally to the female body. Now if you had asked me this question before then I would have felt just awful....

>>7819677
it is too late for therapy. The problem went away on its own. better to leave it alone now :)

>>7819702
>Performance is relative to the circumstances
Not really, performance is hard numbers. There's a reason nobody cares about women sports, and it's not sexism.

Just to clarify guys I meant that puberty delay is acceptable if it is unharmful (and it looks like it isnt harmful). IF IT IS harmful then people like ME are an acceptable casualty because the casualties would be worse otherwise.

>>7819709
don't worry about me.
I challenge your perspective all the time. you asked me how i felt and i told you.

>>7819712
Lying slaver, we gave you evidence that without it our mortality rates are atrocious and you considered that an aceptable sacrifice to having something offensive like blockers out there.

Your aren't the first liberal hypocrite we've run into, and we'll never forgive your kind for making slaves out of us. It won't be even till you loose your taxpayer money and your body autonomy is just as curtailed as ours.

>>7819677
So do you think it would be better if we didn't do delayed puberty and went right away into HRT after the vetting?

>>7819301
>Wanting to be stronger physically is not the same thing as being extremely distressed by your genitals, attempting to pee the "wrong" way or hurt your genitals, being extremely distressed by secondary sex characteristics that emerge at puberty (FtM here, I made many comments to my mother about taking a knife to my breasts at 12-13), etc.
That's just a different kind of dysphoria.

>>7819736
that wasn't OP btw. What other kinds of dysphoria do you know about?

>>7819741
Things like OP talks about >>7819364 >>7819410

Also social dysphoria, being treated like the wrong gender.

>>7819735
i mean, if the kid was 100% trans (knew before kindergarten, came out early, got socialized early, etc) then yes, i dont see why not. if they came out later and if theres any doubts about it i think blockers are a good thing. im just saying that trans kids generally dont want them due to not wanting to be different than their peers and just wanting a normal life. but if they went straight to hormones thered definately be a lot more kids who regret it later on and detransition, which would make society judge trans people more. its just a necessary evil in most cases.

>>7819714
>It's a movement fervently opposed to individualism and the right to control your body as live your life.
How so?

>>7819760
Let us be clear though. De-transitioning is no small deal ESPECIALLY for cis-females who will lose the ability to give birth. Anyone who de-transitions (and i could have been one of these people) is undergoing a huge tragedy. And had coming out been a thing back then I would have been one of the earliest to come out. I did not waver in my feelings back then.

The tragedy would only grow with the negative views of the trans people that would result. So lets talk about the casualties. These are more casualties than we had talked about earlier but they might still be acceptable.

>>7819760
at this risk of sounding unsympathetic I must say that as long as nobody physically harms themselves or grows into a dysfunctional adult I find having a bad childhood... acceptable. I had a bad childhood myself too. I know it hurts a lot but I would do it over a thousand times just to make sure I get to where I am now.

>>7819779
Women can give natural birth even after years of T. It's men who are at the real risk of infertility.

>>7819786
if it is preventable then a bad childhood should absolutely be prevented or at least made better. But there are the casualties to consider. We have to think about the number of casualties and how extreme they are.

>>7819790
I did not know that. I thought it would be irresponsible to undergo pregnancy after de-transitioning. I am updating my knowledge now. Regardless de-transitioning should be avoided if possible.

>>7819451
>First of all, I want to thank you, in a way, for saying, "am I an acceptable casualty?" I have had to ask that question in other areas of my life, and I know that it is a VERY tough question, with a lot of inherent ugliness to it, and it requires emotional strength and a lot of maturity to ask it.
Why do you have to ask yourself that question anon?

>>7819771
Because anything that isn't named abortion or birth control has no right to exist by their saying.

That way, anything from soda drinking to hrt is dangerous and evil by their standards -never mind that contraception is far more dangerous- and needs to if not be banned, become so regulated and costly to get that it's almost banned. Interfering with what people can do under the guise of protecting them is all they do.

Hell, if they pruned the number or abortion clinics down to how many informed consent clinics there are and added the wait time and psych assessments cost to abortion, you woold have riots. Never mind if they used the classic regulations liberals pushed which call for months and months of wait and thousands in psych fees and are still used in non IC .

I can't stand the idea of paying subsides and letting the slavers get their special intrest stuff willy nilly when they're absolutely ruined everyone else's ability own their own body.

>>7819786
yeah i definitely agree, sometimes sacrifices are necessary as long as theyre not long term. i just see no purpose delaying someones transition if its 100% sure they are trans (which i think kids who found out they are very early on and have been living as trans for years are).
>>7819779
there are many cases of ftms pausing transition to have a child, and i havent seen a case of it going badly (i even saw one where a ftm and a mtf had a child, but i dont know if the mtf was infertile and just saved their sperm at a bank or not). i might be wrong though, i generally try to avoid those articles because they make me extremely uncomfortable.

>>7819507
>Viewing gender a bit differently is apparently rather common in people on the spectrum.
Examples please?

>>7819814
I just can't help the feeling that I was someone who knew very early on that my body wasn't right for me (even though I was wrong). I don't think there was any way anyone could tell. I am not confident that using hormone therapy on someone that young will always be the right thing to do. I think I show otherwise. At the age of 7 I knew way more about hormones than I had any right of knowing. Even at age 5 I always talked about how I was a boy.

Also I am pretty sure those people used sperm and egg banks.

>>7819118
A-are you older me? Asexual cis Female here, and I always identified with more masculine things as a teen. I like my body, but I cringe at female pronouns and female societal roles. I hate being forced to choose my gender because I really don't want to have a choice I guess. I don't mind being female, but I don't go around thinking I'm female, I'm just me. I forget I'm female and have to be concentrating to act "feminine" I guess. I have a pretty messed up life and probably some mental issues too. I've always questioned if I was trans, but I'm really unsure of myself and don't know what to do. I don't really think I hate being female, I just don't lile being treated female, and that's society's fault, not mine.

There are only two genders. Male and female. If you have a penis, you are a male. If you don't have a penis, but instead a vagina, you're a female. Simple as that!

>>7819855
lol. Looks like I might be older you. I suggest you take charge of your life and be you. You might have issues with intimidating others who expect you to follow social roles. Do not transition just because of your social role dysphoria or you will lose the ability to challenge the social roles and you might become disappointed in yourself. The BEST way to challenge social roles is to not try to. Just be you and take it all in stride. You will intimidate many people BUT you will also attract friends who like you for who you are. They will like you for the same qualities that others find intimidating. People who are not easily intimidated are some of the best people to surround yourself with.

Try to be sympathetic of those you intimidate by being kind, gracious, and maybe even self-depreciating in a funny kind of way. Being asexual is alright extremely intimidating. You are going to be even MORE intimidating given your defiance of social roles. If you are kind and gracious they will learn that it is a genuine act. Not an act born from social roles. It is not their fault they are intimidated. Nobody like being intimidated. It is society. Always remember that. Try to be someone who can be friendly to everyone. You may even befriend those you intimidate.

remember that kindness and graciousness are NOT feminine qualities. They ARE the qualities of excellent human beings.

>>7819855
Also remember the golden rule of psychology. So long as you do not hurt anyone else or yourself and do not think you are hampered by your own "disability" or "mental issue" then you don't actually have a disability or mental issue. So you must strive to achieve your goals and be true to yourself. This is how you resolve your problems. And remember that adversity is an opportunity for great strength, power, and change. So take advantage of it!

>>7819923
>>7819959
Thank you, really it means a lot to me that you're so similar to me and saying this. My teenhood wasn't very much of a teenhood at all so I've come to realize I probably thought I was trans because it was the only thing I could control in my life. I usually hang out with guys more too, and didn't like being seen as the "girl" of the group, but at the end of the day I really couldn't care less if I had a male of female body, I just want to be a person. Being trans doesn't have anything to do with being masculine or feminine but actually wanting to be the opposite sex, and I think I realize that now. Thank you so much older me, I needed some reassurance!

>>7820073
I'm really happy that I helped! Hang tough!

>>7819855
>I like my body, but I cringe at female pronouns and female societal roles. I hate being forced to choose my gender because I really don't want to have a choice I guess. I don't mind being female, but I don't go around thinking I'm female, I'm just me. I forget I'm female and have to be concentrating to act "feminine" I guess.
I'm the male version of you, but instead of being asexual I'm agp. I still feel trans sometimes.

>>7820102
op here. I never heard of agp before. I am reading up on it now.

>>7820102
Ace girl no. 2 here (not OP)
Well agp is a festish and a part of your sexuality. If you actually wish to be the female sex without it being sexual, you could be trans, but it might actually hurt you if you deside to transition and you don't actually feel trans outside if the fetish. You could always cross dress on your own time though.

>>7820102
AGP is not exclusive with being trans.

>>7820125
It's pretty weird.

>>7820157
That's how I meant I'm like you: I don't like the male social role, I don't like being singled out as male, and I just think of myself as me. I would rather be female even forgetting sex and sometimes I'm dysphoric without it being sexual, but I think it would be a mistake to transition when most of the time it's not too bad.

>>7820169
I know. Most of the time I'm not dysphoric or it's not so bad. As long as I don't let myself dwell on it, I don't need to transition.

>>7820203
Perphaps you should see a gender therapist just incase, and not one of those that jumps straight to trans enabling. A lot of times people also feel transgender because they don't have control over other things in their life and their life is unstable, which leads to wanting to have control over anything else possible, and for a lot of people it's their gender. I used to want to manipulate people all the time, but I didn't want to hurt them at the same time. I know realize it's because I could very easily have control over other people which made me feel good in my unstable life. Some transgenderism is created through similar situations. Still, you should seek out experience through real trans individuals and medical professionals to understand yourself further.

>>7820203
OP here. I am getting all kinds of conflicting info about agp everywhere I look for information. It makes me feel kind of bad because as an asexual ik what it is like for ppl to always ask "what is asexuality?" all the time without bothering to figure it out. So you are saying that it is a social circle thing AND a fetish thing for you? i take it that the social circle thing isnt part of the fetish or is it? Man it must suck being the boy in the group. Just like being the girl in the group.

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>>7819118
Of course you feel this way. Men are just broken women, why would anyone want to willingly be a man? I'm glad you accepted your unbroken body as it is.

I think MtFs and FtMs have vastly different reasons for transitioning, and should have varying standards to go on HRT as a result. Large amounts of FtMs transition because of the way society treats women, while most MtFs transition due to genuine hatred of their broken, incomplete bodies.

>>7820366
Why do you think males have broken and incomplete bodies?

>>7820366
>>7819118
And to add, I'm an MtF who started at 17, if I had waited I would most likely be dead by now. Restricting hormones to genuinely trans people is often fatal. Most detransitioners are FtMs, MtFs shouldn't have to suffer just because many cis women make the wrong choices.

>>7820382
OP here. Nobody should suffer from genuine honest mistakes. But people do suffer because mistakes happen. This is why talking about acceptable casualties vs unacceptable ones are important. Assuming that most de-transitioners are FtM why is it that they are acceptable casualties for the sake of MtF transitioners? Or are you saying you believe MtF transitioners should be approved for hormone treatment earlier than FtM transitioners since you think FtM transitioners are at higher risk of de-transitioning?

>>7820417
Btw I am not implying anything short of what I said in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sentences.

>>7820379
Have you ever seen a man or spoken to a man? They sacrifice everything good about being human in order to be strong killing machines.
>male hormones cause hyperagression (leading to 90% of crime being done by men)
>male hormones cause intense perversions and an obsession with sex
>rough leathery skin
>emotionally dead
>deformed looking face
>weird hard bulgy body
>gross genitals
>can't even give birth
>smell gross
>gross hair (becomes very apparent on long haired males)

>>7820417
>Or are you saying you believe MtF transitioners should be approved for hormone treatment earlier than FtM transitioners since you think FtM transitioners are at higher risk of de-transitioning?
This part is what I'm saying. I don't think *any* women should have to suffer, cis or trans. Due to sexism which still exists in our society, many women are driven to transition. Then they realize it's not at all what they wanted, and they begin to suffer dysphoria, just like MtFs feel. So I can sympathize with them to some degree, even if FtM detransitioners too often allow themselves to become mouthpieces for transphobia.

>>7820296
I don't trust therapists to be able to help me but the whole reason I post here is to understand myself better. I think I have a good idea what's going on with me and it's similar to what you say. Being female would help me handle things in my life.

>>7820334
It's not exactly a fetish, it's more like it is my sexuality. The agp general talks about how it is for different people.

The social part is more how I'd like to be able to live. But the two are connected. I mostly hang out with boys so it doesn't matter, but when there's a mixed group, I'm part of the boy half, which I don't like.

>>7820334
AGP has historically been used to stigmatize trans women as perverts and coerce them into heterosexuality and femininity. This makes it an incredibly touchy topic.

Despite this, AGP is a fetish some people do have. People who have it tend to be really into sissification and bimboification stuff. It varies a lot person to person, so you aren't going to get a single definitive answer on it.

>>7820469
Out of curiosity how old are you now? Also I would like to go through each point you made about men in this post:

>male hormones cause hyperagression (leading to 90% of crime being done by men)

It is true that men dominate in terms of crime statistics universally throughout all cultures. Why? I am unsure. Testosterone is a piece of the puzzle without a doubt but there is more to it and interrelationships.

>Male hormones cause intense perversions and an obsession with sex

As an asexual I am in no position to make judgments on this. It just wouldn't be fair of me. I cannot make moral judgment in this arena the was a sexual person can. However I will say that in the asexual community ppl who think this way about non-asexuals are elitists and are frowned upon. I don't like asexuals with a superiority complex when it comes to sexuality.

>rough leathery skin

This is an aesthetic concern. Furthermore a person's lifestyle is a huge contributer to skin texture. Being male or female takes a backseat in this regard. Some people have rough leathery skin for noble reasons. Consider my mother who is a dentist. Her hands are course but she is a healer. She ends people's pain. Her hands cannot be silky smooth because of the tools she works with.

>emotionally dead

I am under the impression that society is for blame when it comes to the type of men you are talking about. Society and psychology. It is true that in most cultures women are more expressive of their emotions. I believe this is a thing men can learn to adopt regardless of their culture. I dont think their bodies are primarily to blame.

>deformed looking face

I agree that women are aesthetically better to men. Including the face. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Also saying they are deformed is a bit far no?

>weird hard bulgy body

You will have to specify. Females are certainly curvier. I don't think you are referring to muscle here. Whatever it is it sounds aesthetic.

>>7820558
I do not want to downplay the importance of aethetics. It seems to be responsible for much dysphoria among people who have it. still though it is subjective.

>can't even give birth

Science may yet change that. I will admit the human female body is capable of greater feats than the male one by virtue of being able to handle the strenuousness of birth. Humans especially considering various reasons (some having to do with those BIG OLE BABY NOGGINS)

>smell gross

gross people smell gross. Their momma and daddy didn't teach them that it aint ok to smell bad "cuz of muh manliness". Males sweat more because...ok. you win. they sweat more because their cooling system is less efficient than a females.

>gross genitals

I literally have no argumnt against this.

>gross hair

they can shave or laser it off though

>>7820547
I totally need to lurk in the AGP threads. I have a lot of reading up to do before I understand AGP.

>>7820547
If AGP was understood better instead of just rejected then there wouldn't be that stigma for it.

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>>7820558
I'm 21.
>Why?
We don't need to know exactly why, we just know that men are incredibly violent and dangerous. It proves my point regardless.
>I don't like asexuals with a superiority complex when it comes to sexuality.
I'm not asexual, and I'm not being elitist. Of people who have paraphilias, 95% are men. Men are scientifically more perverted, and typically in ways that are harmful to women. Think deeper about the fetishes most men have, if you feel like being disgusted entirely by men.
>Her hands cannot be silky smooth because of the tools she works with.
People have skin other than on their hands, you know.
>I am under the impression that society is for blame when it comes to the type of men you are talking about
How come this applies to virtually all men, in just about every single culture? When a behavior is universal across cultures, the cultural argument begins to break down. And this is anecdotal, but every male I know that is open with their emotions, those emotions tend to be fucking horrifying.
>Also saying they are deformed is a bit far no?
No, not really. Pic very related. Men are less attractive, this is basically a fact. Maleness is a deformity.
>>7820605
At least here you basically agree with all of my points.
I think society would be a far better place if only women existed. Statistics seem to agree with me as well, since men are seen as unattractive, and engage in extremely undesirable behavior.

>>7820637
If Blanchard didn't try to create a black and white typology, he might've had a leg to stand on. I like women and I have literally never had any arousal relating to the idea of being a woman. Trying to paint all gynephilic trans women as perverts is just straight up misogyny and homophobia.

>>7820501
>Being female would help me handle things in my life.
You think transitioning would be better for you then? Do you actually want to be the opposite sex?

>>7820664
I was curious about your age to know how long you have had to formulate your opinion.

I will confess that every time a person made me sexually uncomfortable it was a male. And I will confess my fear of male genitals, aggression, the increased libido, and my fear of intimidating my partner (I have noticed that I intimidate men more often than women) has led me to believe that MtF people are desirable as a partner. But I must be wrong to think this way. Men are 50% of the population. They are part of human heritage. Isn't it sexist and immoral to think of MOST men the way we are describing?

>>7820664
Blanchard was right, he just didn't accept exceptions.

It's your transphobia that uses agp as a stigma, your belief that having agp makes you a pervert.

>>7820700
I do want to be female, but my dysphoria is slight enough that I'd rather handle being male than transition. Some people with agp are much more dysphoric and are undoubtedly trans, some are barely dysphoric at all or notice no dysphoria.

>>7820726
What is it about transitioning that makes you feel that you would prefer the dysphoria?

>>7820726
The people he used for his studies were all ultra masculine fifty year old men in the AGP category.

They had ultra masculine biomarkers like 2d:4d, hyper masculine neurology and hypermasc, aged man bodies.

So there is no distinction whatsoever from the blanchardian AGP category and hon.

Ergo it's right that we call the perverted men and creeps like you Hons and not even bother with the redundant AGP.

>>7820726
>Blanchard was right
You realize that by definition all Blanchard AGP are hons and masculine

>>7820726
If you honestly want to be female, you shouldn't feel as if you can't do it. If you want to, You allow yourself to.

>>7820747
The medical process of surgery and being dependent on hormones forever, and the fact that it would never be the same as being cis female and passing.

The dysphoria is unpleasant but not enough to stop me living my life if I don't let it.

>>7820802
If I could be cis female, I would, but if I transition I'll never be able to avoid the maleness I can't get rid of.

>>7820819
OP here. So for you it is an all or nothing kind of situation?

Let me see if I understand correctly. You want a female body because it is both a fetish for you and a social circle thing and a body image thing? So the only big difference between you and the other trans is that their is a fetish as well?

>>7820715
>Isn't it sexist and immoral to think of MOST men the way we are describing?
It's sort of sexist, but I don't think it makes it wrong, necessarily. Misogyny tends to result in the oppression of women, while misandry tends to result in simply avoiding men, often for safety reasons. The two are similar only on the surface.

>>7820726
It's more than just exceptions. AGP only impacts one part of the community. I have known dozens of trans lesbians, and literally zero have had AGP.

>>7820871
but saying that males are broken and incomplete goes further than avoiding men for safety issues. This goes so much further.

>>7820908
I believe we shouldn't oppress men, but we should replace them through the use of science and technology.

>>7820848
All or nothing in what sense?

It is a sexual and a social thing, and body image but that's less important, which is probably why I'm not so dysphoric.

The difference between me and other trans people is that their dysphoria is worse and some of them don't have the same sexual appeal to being female.

>>7820871
That's anecdotal and tainted with social desirability bias.

>>7820928
I mean all or nothing because if you can't be cis-female then you don't even want to be female via the trans method

Also If you can't pass then you would rather not try (you'd be closer to passing as a woman if you were a trans-female than a cis male).

You don't see getting rid of some of the maleness as preferable to getting rid of ALL of it.

>>7820952
Yes, somewhat. If being trans meant pills forever and some masculine or androgynous traits but still passing as female, then I'd take that. But not passing and all the medical side probably won't be worth it. I do question it, but probably not worth it, so safer not to.

I would rather be less masculine and I don't like male traits like facial hair, but I'll shave and stay slim and not take the huge step that is transition. If transition was different, I would chose to be androgynous and cute even if I don't pass as female, but as it is transition isn't that.

>>7819246
congrats, you're a tomboy

>>7821011
Have you consulted surgeons or doctors or whoever you'd have to consult to get an assessment done of your particular face?

>>7821038
No, I've kept this entirely to myself, and the internet. I just decided it wasn't worth trying. It's not just my fake, it's height, shoulders, hands, body shape, the works. I didn't know you could get assessments of your face though. I thought it was just cross your fingers and see.

>>7821087
Let me just say when it comes to height the facts are some women are tall, some are short, some are fun-sized, and some are titans that turn heads. If you transition then guess what? You will be one of those women. Cis-women don't choose their height.

As for hands can you post a pic?

When it comes to shoulders Ive seen cis-women with hella broad ones that put men to shame. Get the idea that stereotypically feminine features = female out of your head.

When it comes to body shape I was under the impression that hormones will fix that.

Having non-stereotypical features for all of these features don't matter if your face passes which is why i think the assessment is important. Look if your face passes then you will be a tall woman with broad shoulders. Those are extremely attractive features by the way. Have you not been paying attention to models these days? btw if you get toned and work out those features will become harmonious and beautiful. An incredibly striking figure.

>>7821146
None of these are dealbreakers for transition. At worst with my hands I'd just be self-conscious over them. It's when in combination they mean I wouldn't pass that I can't stand the thought of being a trans woman. Being male isn't what I want but it isn't the end of the world. I can make do as I am. Turning myself forever into a trans woman would still be short of being a cis woman, would probably mean not passing, and would mean losing even the not too bad state of being able to present as a cis guy.

>>7821193
Ok but I still encourage you to get an assessment done on your face considering how you are willing to transition if you know you will pass. If your face passes then these other features in combination will not pull you down. Also would you consider face surgery before getting hormone therapy? That wil make your face more androgynous (which you seem to like). Hell maybe it will make your face so feminine that you will just have to transition.

>>7821223
It's not just passing, it's getting surgery and having to take hormones forever. My body functions and doesn't need medical help and I like it that way. I just wish it was a female body like that instead of a male one.

If I had an assessment and it said I was guaranteed to pass, I still might not transition and the indecision would be horrible. I'm happier thinking I can't and that I just have to make the best of being male without transition.

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>>7821325
Godspeed anon. You are female in my book. I hope you live an awesome life. I hope the wizards of science can someday wave a wand and make you whatever you want to be no strings attached. And I hope you find social circles that don't care if you are male or female.

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>>7820848
>all or nothing
He isn't trans do you cant count him, but people do have crippling BDD, and any sort of feature that seems excessively masculine torments people in a way akin to anorexia.

That's part of the reason why starting late (18+) has a mortality so much higher than people who got blockers early. That and if people don't pass (and even passing doesn't mean there won't be severe bdd) they're treated like monsters and targeted by laws.

If the 18+ are lucky, the damage isn't so bad that it can't be fixed and they somehow get a fortune worth of money to pay for it.

If they're unlucky and don't have the money or that the damage is too severe, then they either die quick and end their pain or spend their short life in agony and die early.

It's all or nothing when it comes to deformities and BDD.

>>7821605
If BDD is as bad as you say and blockers are harmless then I reach the following conclusion:

All people who suspect themselves of being trans should get hormone blockers asap regardless of age. They must wait till the end of their teenage years to actually get hormone therapy. This way we can prevent casualties in both trans people and people who thought they were trans but actually weren't. Having a bad childhood because you didnt get hormone therapy is acceptable so long as all damage is fixed later on in life (which they would be with hormone blockers).

Hormone blockers really are harmless then? you don't even get stunted growth or things like that?

>>7821325
So, let me get this straight, you want to present as female but you don't want to have to go through the medical process? It sounds like you're body guilting yourself by saying your body is perfectly fine the way it is. I get that your body is healthy, but you very obviously want to be female. I just think your excuses are somewhat week. Do you think maybe your struggling to justify not transitioning for other purposes you're not be honest with us/yourself about?

>>7821786
I feel like her reasons are legit though. Health is very important. Trans people have certain health issues. And the stigma attached to being trans can be awful if you fail to pass. Someone in her position has alot to grapple with in making the decision. It is not as clear cut as most other trans people.

>>7821223
>>7821146
Your standard for "passing" is much too lenient. Most real women can pass as women with a combination of short hair, no makeup, men's clothes and a lack of visible curves/breasts. If a tran cant do that then they can't really pass all the time.

And not only does that horrible bdd, but it also means the risk of getting caught which is anything from violence to in the states that are banning Id change and restroom use, getting arrested. It's not possible to have a social life and live without fear and paranoia unless it can be done perfectly.
>>7821717

>stunted growth or things like that
You actually grow much taller than your siblings because your growth plates don't seal as fast.

>>7821827
Im slowly getting the feeling that hormone blockers maybe should be manditory.... you guys are listing positives and no downsides.

Also I am looking at the definition of BDD. It realy does seem like anorexia nervosa (anorexia is a blanket term that was inappropriately use here) in that it is the result of skewerd perception of oneself. I don't think the solution to BDD is feeding it with social stigma by society and personal excuses/coddling. It needs to be confronted. BDD ideals are NOT the same as passing. We must not treat them as the same thing. It would only make things worse for everyone.

>>7821824
That's true, it's just conflicting to see someone who's so conflicted. I wish I could do more to help this person but I can't. I guess that's the complexity of the situation.

>>7821912
I think she will do great though. She is still young enough to learn the social skills require to transition from "one of the boys" to "one of the girls" in any social setting without biological transitioning.

>>7821912
everyone has pain in their lives that we learn how to deal with. what matters is that it is manageable. There is nothing more precious than a struggle that grows one's character.

>>7821990
>without biological transitioning
if they don't, then they're a man who will permenantly become more and more unpassable till they're a joke who couldn't ever be salvaged even with the best of medical care

There's a reason it's called transexual, it's entirely about the body

>>7822054
Her issue was manageable though. There doesn't seem to be much wrong if anything at all. It might not even be appropriate to call what she is experiencing dysphoria because it is so manageable. The golden rule of psychology still stands. If you diagnose someone who should'nt be diagnosed you are doing them harm by giving power to something that shouldn't be given power. It is like telling an amputee who is capable of parkour, gymnastics, and going about their daily lives efficiently that they have a disability. It is just wrong and incorrect.

>>7819118
That's the secret. Almost everyone wonders what it would be like to be the opposite gender. I fucking guarantee you that most, if not all, of the people you know have at some point in their life.

I'm in the same boat as you. Thought I wanted to be a chick when I was 17, in high school (bow howdy, I wonder if adolescence had anything to do with my confusion? Nah). And you're right: if you or I had been in such a crisis in 2017, we undoubtedly would have looked it up, found 4chan or whatever, had some anonymous chucklefucks on the Internet tell us--no, DEMAND that we transition--and then we would have killed ourselves by twenty or so. That's the world now. That's the movement.

Hell, I even thought I was otherkin once. What a wild teenager I was.

The Internet is a terrible place for enabling passing phases, or validating otherwise idle thoughts. This can be a good thing. It can also be very, very bad. If you're an adult and want to take hormones, go fucking nuts. But if you're under the age of 25, you just haven't stopped developing. You're not settled, especially in this day and age where things move so quickly.

If, when you're an adult, you find that you still feel the way you do ten years ago, then by all means, do your thing. Or hell, if you're younger, you take your body into your own hands. But I'd really like to see people stop pushing their weird fucking [insert fringe sexual orientation] agenda on other folks.

And don't worry if people think you're a "bigot"; most people who use the word don't know what it means. I had to inform a coworker the other week on the proper definition of "chauvinism", because she clearly thought it was a synonym for misogyny. It's not.

>>7822315
some people who don't transition earlier than 18 kill themselves though. they are casualties. Are people like you and I rare enough so that it would be better if we were casualties instead of them?

>>7822315
You'd be more credible if you weren't that pedophile who's always raiding this place
As is you're just a criminal who routinely dodges bans

>>7822386
not theanon youre replying to but why are you always accusing random anons of this lmao

>>7822315
>If, when you're an adult, you find that you still feel the way you do ten years ago, then by all means, do your thing.

By then, it's too late. You're now a hon, and you're better off dead.

>>7822458
It's hardly random when it's a handful of easily recognizable people engaging in raids.

The fact they're alwYs chased down and banned by the mods and always post the same shit is proof of their guilt and the fact they long ago lost the right to be here.

>>7822465
That sounds very sad to me. I guess FtM don't have to deal with this time-limit.

>>7822504
Forgot my op name

>>7821864
All my life I've only felt dysphoria through BDD and diseases like ana have been symptoms of a bigger disease at the root.
Maybe this means I'm not genuinely trans, and that you'd all think I shouldn't get medical care, but it's the only thing assides from heavy duty drug use that helps. I'd whined about this during puberty but of course nobody would help with things like blockers, so ana and emaciation were the only options. I wish I'd had blockers since starvation isn't as effective, it's exhausting and actually stunts growth and has negative effects, but doing nothing would have been far worse.

I don't think the damage is that bad, I'm close to getting the money and fixing it, then I can finally move on with my life.
>>7821995
They don't grow, it just stunts and cripples people. You spend your life struggling on this single thing and even if you're lucky and win you've wasted everything on fixing this one thing when everyone's grown so much more. It just leaves people damage, embittered husks of what they could have been if they weren't suffering

>>7822626
I don't think you are the same anon I was talking about. The other anon had plenty of opportunity to grow from her struggles.

>>7822626
I dont think BDD and being trans are mutually exclusive at all. I do think you need both medical and psychiatric care. However if you think BDD informs you about what it takes to pass then you are so so wrong. You need to confront BDD and treat it as separate from other forms of dysphoria. Be strong anon. Do not seek advice from BDD. BDD is your enemy.

>>7822722
>>7822626
any transition you make will forever be incomplete if you do not slay your BDD. I believe in you anon. You struggled so hard and went so far. You must defy your BDD. It is not an excuse. It is not part of your identity. It is not YOU.

>>7822626
Holy shit don't starve yourself amd don't dope yourself up either. There has to be a permanent solution to what you're going through. Maybe it's time to just transition because it's obvious you need it at this point. If you're worried about acceptance and social pressure, you have to put your health over everyone else's opinions.

>>7822741
Basically no MtFs pass, so it's not like there's ever a time when BDD isn't based on reality for an MtF, she has a valid reason for thinking she's ugly.

ITT: another TERF is born

>>7822813
That just isnt true. There are so many ppl who pass. Some are even goddesses. Also BDD is by definition a skewered sense of self-perception. if it isn't skewered then it just isn't BDD. BDD shouldn't be enabled neither. Being a certain height or having certain shoulders are NOT criteria for passing plain and simple. Broad shoulders and great height are the things that female models are made of for chrissake.

>>7822797
she said she almost has enough money to transition now. but she MUST cut the drug usage and starvation if she is to survive her transition.

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>>7822813

>>7822840
who is the TERF?

Thread theme
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9itwt_opsvQ

>>7822855
I see. I hope everything works out for her.

>>7822722
BDD is nessecary, it's like fear, it drives you to do stuff and take risks which without you'd be screwed, it's a drive to improve. And I hate the shrinks, they never help when you need them, they talk down and treat you like a pet and talk you into going slow. I will fix things on my own terms and they can either watch or get out of the way.
>>7822797
>>7822855
I stopped the starvation and drug use after getting hormones...It's less troublesome.

I just refuse to socially transition until I can pull the success criteria from >>7821827 you all don't need to worry

>>7822933
BDD will not tell you how to become shorter or have less broad shoulders. It will just screech at you with non-universal standards that might not even make sense within your own culture. A drive for improvement need not be fed by disorder. There is nothing more disempowering. And if you can't see the truth about BDD then either you don't have it or you need psychiatric help. And look I hate shrinks too. I hate them so much.

But maybe you are right about BDD. I'd like to learn from you if you are. But first tell me why there are so many successful transitioners who never had BDD? If BDD is necessary that should be impossible.

>>7822933
Alright, well I want you to know you're a really strong individual for managing through all that you have. I hope you become healthy and do what's best for you. Good luck anon.

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>>7822984
BDD leads to trying things like starvation which promote staying childlike, it also leads to things like trying cypro and those help with shoulders.
The successful ones with no bdd are mostly either child transitioners or the bdd sufferers who got better after they did enough to fix it. Sometimes running from something is the only way to motivate yourself to move forward.

It all doesn't matter anyway, my socialisation is probably fucked by now so even after I'm done with my body, I'll still be an abnormal crazy.
>>7822994
Thank you but I'm the opposite of strong.

>>7819855
Doesn't sound "male" to me. You sound in the middle. Transitioning will take away the female expectations and add male ones, which sounds just as bad in your life.

>>7823181
>tfw not enough money to start cypro, stuck on spiro because my endo's a bitch, I can feel my body slowly continue to masculinize as I die a little more inside every day

>>7820366
Caraposter

>>7823181
I hope that someday hormone blockers become more prevalent for trans kids and teens so that ppl don't have to resort to such desperate tactics. While i dont approve of HRT before you are 18 I do approve of hormone blockers until one reaches that age.

>>7823210
>While i dont approve of HRT before you are 18

Lol

>>7823214
sorry i just can't! if there is no harm in waiting while using hormone blockers then you should wait to prevent unnecessary casualties.

>>7823220
It wouldn't bother me but height growth continues much longer with blockers alone and that might be bad for mtfs

>>7823228
I feel like these are sacrifices that are acceptable to prevent worse casualties for people who are mistaken about being trans. I also think that this attitude against being tall reflects disturbing biases against certain women, both trans and cis. If you were on hormone blockers growing up you will pass spectacularly.

>>7823245
>>7823228
also our society loves tall women. There is no excuse here unless you want to be a fighter pilot or something (short fighter pilots are better).

>>7823228
I wouldn't mind being taller, and I'd have taken blockers over starvation, they'd probably be all I needed.

Your argument is reasonable enough. But do you also feel the same way about dangerous stuff that often kills or permanently damaged kids like contraception? Why are those different when harm is greater.

>>7823266
I'm not sure if you are talking to me or not. I personally have said nothing about contraception on this thread. I have never heard of contraception often damaging or hurting kids. I myself am an asexual so I think that should be taken into consideration. Also aren't condoms contraception too? Only idiots or people in freak accidents get killed by condoms. I'm assuming you're talking about other contraceptives though.

>>7823278
Oral contraceptives are hormonal, xenoestrogens usually so they can stay in bloodstream long enough to work

That also means they work like a crazy version of normal Estro and do things like cause bloodclots at high rates. It's still kids taking adulterated hormones.

>>7823293
Can you link to a source saying this about modern fda approved contraceptives?

>>7823293
>>7823306
I also need the source to say something that supports what you say about them often killing or permanently harming young users.

I wonder if this thread will still be up if I go to sleep now and wake up tomorrow.

>>7823308
>>7823306
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1496751/
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/france-limit-contraceptive-pills-carry-higher-blood-clot-risks-article-1.1232375
Here, contraception is measurably risky

I don't really want to fight over what people can do now though. That just poisons me further.

>>7823315
Why not?

>>7823332
i do not frequent this board often so i dont know the lifespan of threads here. If it is good then I should go to sleep. uber tired.

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>>7819118

This is why we need to get away from people just waking up and randomly "identifying" with one gender on Wednesday and another on Thursday.

PICK ONE, YOU MOFOS, IF YOU EVER WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY EVER EVER AGAIN

>>7823362
Fortunately, most kids doing that don't want hormones or other medical intervention. It's the genderfluid "trans for funsies" type that harp on and on about you not needing dysphoria or HRT or anything to be trans other than "I said I am".

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I am going to hit the hay. I'd like to extend my thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. I will be back tomorrow morning.

>>7823371
stay awesome fellas!

Jesus, you people got pissy at the OP for misunderstanding one thing. You guys wanna chill a little?

>>7819553
I really hope you wouldn't have been, OP. Like I said, I get red flags off all your posts.

I wonder though, what if you had been? Suppose you had only gotten HRT for a few years...would you be able to live with the effects if you then detransitioned?

>>7819736
If you don't have that dysphoria anon, you aren't trans. I doubt social dysphoria is enough, because there are too many other potential causes of that.

>>7819800
I'm a CSA survivor, right-wing and tentatively supportive of organizations like Virtuous Pedophiles (who have the ultimate goal of pedos being "out" in the community and not despised for being attracted to children as long as they don't act on it). I'm inclined to think things like VirPed could bring down rates of child molestation.

But it runs afoul of the idea that societies are stronger and more innovative if they are more sexually repressed. Some would argue that if you trace sexual morality back through the eras, you find a society falls as it becomes more sexually open.

Fiercely hating pedophiles and shoving them into a tiny closet of loneliness and alienation might increase the chances that they'll molest kids like me. But maybe that's an acceptable cost in exchange for great revolutions of thought and technology.

>>7819830
There's apparently disproportionate overlap between autistics and trans people. I'm only referencing stats here.

>>7820366
Thanks, Captain Pseudoscience!

Reminder that detransitioners are estimated to be ~1% of the trans community. We could be underestimating their numbers by more than 80% and they'd still be in single-digit percentages.

It's not that they're unimportant. But it's not outrageously common.

And VICE ran an article in 2015 in which a surgeon who performs trans surgeries claims to have only ever seen MtF detransitioners. LOL. We don't know what the ratio is, at all.

>>7823402
I don't know what life would be like as a detransitioner. I think I would feel a lot of shame. I would probably survive but the emotional and biological costs would be huge. As a detransitioner I might never trust myself with childbirth for fear that something would go wrong as a result of my history with testosterone. I would feel a lot of anger towards the world. I think it would be hell.

>>7823402
pedos are such a minority in the world that they really wouldn't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things. We already are veeery sexually open and only getting moreso.

I also do not have a lot of faith in the existence of causation between sexual openness and sacrifices in society and the advancements you referred to. Assuming that there really is a causation then there would be waaay bigger fish to fry than pedos. Also if this correlation is true then I can see why you are struggling with the question of acceptable cost.

In my abnormal psych studies a lot of what we learned about pedos do seem to mesh with what you say.

http://www.upworthy.com/a-provocative-treatment-program-for-pedophiles-in-germany-is-raising-some-eyebrows

I also think you might be confusing treatment/acceptance into society with openness and promotion. What you describe is not a celebration of pedophilia.

Also as someone who loves children pedophiles disturb me greatly. I applaud you for not going with the knee-jerk hatred response towards sick human beings in spite of your experiences. Sick people need help.

>>7821366
Thank you. I think I can live an awesome life with social circles like that and I'll always hope for that scientific wand, for myself and everyone with issues like these.

>>7821786
Yes, I want to present as female and I'd like to be female too, but I don't want the medical process.

I'd have to justify my decision either way. My choice is hoping being male will be bearable instead of hoping transition is good enough and manageable. Like OP says >>7821824 , I don't want the stigma and I don't want the health complications.

>>7821912
I have to consider the situation and figure out how to make the best of it. I can't just be a cis girl like I'd like and I'm not so unhappy being male that there's no decision to make. Either way is a risk and neither is perfect, but I think not transitioning is the one which will turn out best. I'll never really know.

>>7822054
I won't be a joke because I'll just be a man. I don't want that, but I could be a joke anyway even if I transition now, and I for sure won't be cis female.

The risk is that it might drag me down and get worse and that I'll eventually transition anyway, years late, but I hope I'll be able to cope.

>>7822082
It's manageable at the moment. It might worsen, but equally I might get better at managing it and be able to not feel it at all.

>>7822626
>You spend your life struggling on this single thing and even if you're lucky and win you've wasted everything on fixing this one thing when everyone's grown so much more.
It's not as bad as that for me. I've been happy and grown despite it and I can keep doing so I think. It will always bug me and I don't think I'll ever stop wishing to be female, but it's not so bad it's taking all my life to fight.

>>7824423
As someone who recovered from OCD I have a lot of sympathy for this:

>It's not as bad as that for me. I've been happy and grown despite it and I can keep doing so I think. It will always bug me and I don't think I'll ever stop wishing to be female, but it's not so bad it's taking all my life to fight.

OCD will never stop badgering me for the rest of my life. But I have made it manageable and most importantly I am able to refuse to act on any and all of its demands. It just hurts that it is still there. If my OCD were a person I would say that we have made amends and even managed to become close friends. The golden rule applies to myself as well. What I have is now OCD only by name but it no longer truly qualifies as a disorder in my case.

>>7822840
>>7822864
Anon meant you, because a massive amount of TERFs are detransitioners or non-transitioning ftm-ish women. But your attitude isn't the TERF one. It's really nice actually to see someone from that demographic be friendly to trans people instead.

>>7824508
I don't know much about OCD so maybe this is wrong, but one difference is that OCD is just a bad thing. My dysphoria is bad, but it's not a thing on its own, it's part of my agp which is part of my sexuality, and I like that even though it can't be fulfilled without that wand of science, and I wouldn't give that up to lose the dysphoria. It's too precious to me. I don't exactly plan being able to refuse the dysphoria, I just want to sate it without transition, by living a life with enough femininity in it that I can be content.

>>7824557
You are correct. OCD is just bad so long as it is a disorder (then it just becomes "OCD"). But I did manage to become friends with it in a way. It taught me a lot about willpower. So much that it had an enormous influence on the person I have become. It is like a third parent that is always there. Just like you and your "dysphoria" (I put it in quotes because I don't think yours qualifies as a disorder if it is so precious to you and you are sound of mind) I would not kill my "OCD" if I had the chance. Both my "OCD" and your "dysphoria" both hurt us and are precious to us. Your "dysphoria" is an essential component of your agp. My "OCD" is an essential component of my willpower (which is the reason why I am accepting of a female body now).

>>7824618
That's very interesting. Good for you! When you feel your "OCD", what is it that makes you feel glad to have it instead of disliking it?

It's not my "dysphoria" exactly that's precious to me, it's the agp, which is my sexuality. The "dysphoria" is just a consequence of that sexuality combined with not being female. I'd be happy without it, but not without the cause.

Maybe my willpower is part of why it's manageable, but my hope isn't to beat it by will but to manage to satisfy the desire to be female without being female. By enjoying femininity, identifying with female characters in fiction, etc. Then I hope I'll stop feeling the "dysphoria" at all because the agp will have a different outlet and I can enjoy it without there being a need to overcome it and without the enjoyment being tainted by the sadness of not being female.

If science did create the wand and you could be male just like that, would you?

>>7824557
>>7824686
>people on this board actually, legitimately believe in AGP, and use it to describe their feelings of dysphoria

>>7824713
How or where is my use of it wrong?

>>7824686
I wouldn't take the magic wand to become male. I crave challenge. Being male just isn't awesome enough to warrant a sex change imo. Having a female body is the bigger challenge. I am capable of feats as a female that wouldn't impress people if I had been male (even if those feats scaled upwards with my testosterone). Having said that if the magic wand could make me strong enough to survive impacts with a truck going 90 mph without permanent damage (0 damage would be cheating)...well who would say no to such badassery? Then again that goes beyond male vs female doesn't it? Then I would get a new challenge (how many trucks going 90 mph can i get hit by within a 24 hour period without losing consciousness? And more importantly will it be entertaining?).

The "OCD" is a test. It is another challenge. I have learned to stop it from controlling my life. If I give in to its power then it ceases to become a feeling that comes and goes. It turns into something that is always there in your every waking moment. It gains a presence so strong that it replaces you in the real world. It is a monster. If it is OCD and not "OCD" there is no saving grace.

>>7824686
basically what i'm trying to say is that "OCD" will strengthen your willpower but OCD will consume your willpower and destroy your life. No exceptions.

>>7820366
LOLwut

Male body:
- can't get pregnant
- doesn't bleed and get cramps for a week every month
- higher muscle to fat ratio
- larger

Seriously, with all due respect to women (especially BECAUSE they have to deal with the physical disadvantages of having a female body), the male body is kinda functionally superior for day to day enjoyment of life, especially due to the first two points listed.

Me thinks you're probably an AGP tranny.

>>7820469
>They sacrifice everything good about being human in order to be strong killing machines.
I'm a 100% chill man who plays with cats and kids all day. If there's one thing that made me dead inside and sexually obsessed, it was the damned culture I've been brought up in. Fucking pornography, masculinity-glorifying movies and video games, and all that other junk. I wish I'd have grown up in some kind of hyper-Sweden. Maybe Iceland, I heard they're like the most radical feminist country, with first lesbian president and all.

>>7820469
Oh and:
90% of the things you list which I didn't address in >>7825757 just further hint at you being an AGP tranny.

You sexualize and objectify the female body to the point of glorifying it above all else. Talk about being sexually obsessed brah.

>>7825717
while I agree with you Saint Nicholas was a real person though
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

>>7825717
>male bodies aren't also objectified meme

>>7825717
>radical feminism
Jesus

>>7825771
>while I agree with you Saint Nicholas was a real person though
Just like biological sex, on which the bullshit myth of gender is based, is real. Myth based on reality.

>>7825779
Stop being a complete retard and compare the occurrence of anorexia in girls to the occurrence of muscle dysmorphia in boys. The amount of men in mainstream media with a normal physique is sufficient for most boys to feel comfortable with their bodies, unless you're an absolute fatass or something.

>>7825786
Materialism hurts, I know.

>>7825717
>the whole society you live in extremely sexualizes and objectifies it against your will 24/7
Is consent independent of social influence?

>I imagine tits, hips, and menstruation can objectively be quite a pain in the ass, especially if you want to be a physically active / athletic person
Does this push a statistically significant number of cis women to desire a transition to being physically male?

>The "being a girl" 99% of people think of is a pile of sexist stereotypes dumped on girls.
Can you name a social group which is not stereotyped?

>LITERALLY
As opposed to figuratively telling them apart.

>Giving a kid blockers is *never* done in isolation. It's accompanied by a social push into trans culture.
No teenager experiences a complete absence of social pressure unless they exist out in the woods somewhere with no adults around. No action taken with regard to elements of identity is ever taken in isolation.

>to tell the kid that transitioning is a life-long pain in the fucking ass would be "transphobia" of course
That seems to be lost on the majority of transitioning trans people who would say that it is a major pain in the ass. Few things worth doing are ever easy.

>Radical feminism should be taught starting from grade 1.
The solution to the apparent problem of children being socialized into every group but yours is apparently to socialize them as young as possible into yours, then. Allow me to quote you:
>Radical feminism should be taught starting from grade 1.
>Kids start puberty at what, around 12? Sometimes earlier in girls. When have you last interacted with children that age? They are EXTREMELY immature. People mentally mature well into their 20s.

Can I ask, how would children discard gender under feminism which as a fundamental element of its social criticism works on the distinction between males and females?

>>7825717
Blockers are reversible, that's basic knowledge and proven by countless fda clinical trials on adults and children


Also,

You just happen to be that pedophilesGood who's raided this site nonstop and waged a campaign where you bombard us with snuff dead animals and naked kids.


You're a criminnal and permenantly banned, and we don't need to bother with answering your lies when you pull this shit all the time.

We'll just alert the mods of your dodging and let them cleanse you.

Sage and report everyone, purge this ban evader before he spams cp again.

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>>7825717
I belive in GC and like talking to gendercrits, and I understand this is entirely a sex/body problem, that's why its bdd. That's why gender is fake, harmful and bdd can only be fixed through body.

But that said you admitted to being a man, from Brietbart. And you're probably the guy who keeps raiding this place, so there's no reason to tolerate you and your fake feminist impersonations and ban evasions.

So reported, good bye and send an actual woman here to talk about it, not a milo clone.
>Lupron fucks up your bone development.
Lies again, they've done trial after trial and this never happened. Unless you mean grow really, really tall, it's fake shit.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

>>7825757
>Maybe Iceland, I heard they're like the most radical feminist country, with first lesbian president and all.
Ahaha, I remember, you're that perverted hairy guy who used to float around the lesbian threads here making them uncomfortable.


You then went and started raiding femgen for some reason even though we'd done you no wrong.

I can't belive This lusty ape of all creatures is lecturing us on feminism and morality.

>>7825717
>believes gender isn't real
>doesn't want people to be trans
>supports sex identity politics that drive people into gendered identities

>>7825757
>>7825764
Not her but there is literally nothing wrong with being agp.

>>7819118
You quite obviously have a stronger form of autism.
Hopefully doctors would catch up on this, and go even more "deeper" on the evaluation.

I really doubt you'd pass through the evaluation...
Either way, even if 49% regretted it, the 51% should get treatment... Actually, even if 99% regretted it, all should get treatment if they want it. You shouldn't punish honest and genuine people because of dishonest fakers.

>>7819118
So...
You wanted to have facial hair, get wide shoulders, narrow hips, get a deep voice, a long gaunt face, etc?

How the fuck can somebody be so wrong about what they want?

>>7825757
Regarding what you say about the superiority of a male body in terms of enjoyment of life:

>can't get pregnant

whether this is an advantage or a disadvantage can go either way

>doesn't bleed and get cramps

If you are a physically active woman you will not get the cramps. Also the bleeding is an amazing indicator of body health. Athletes who miss periods know something is wrong. Males lack this indicator and do not have an equivalent.

>higher muscle to fat ratio

In modern society why does this matter? No seriously. Outside of athletics you really don't need that male strength advantage. Even outside of modern society women perform excelllently if they are raised to do so.

>larger

you need to explain why this matters.

Just so I can show you why you are wrong about the enjoyment of day to day life here is some info:

Woman body:
-superior cooling capabilities
-lifespan
-when it comes to sensory perception we are generally more accurate and have better range by a wide margin (for all the senses)
-orgasms (not that it matters for aces as much)
-better recovery from blood loss and trauma
-X linked diseases don't pack as big a punch

I'm not saying women are better off but you are looking at things strictly in terms of muscle. Perception matters too.

>>7826238
no autism here. thoroughly vetted. And I am not a faker. Also you are ridiculous to say that 99% are acceptable casualties for the 1%. That is just wrong. Casualties must be minimized in terms of both number and severity.

>>7826326
>lifespan
Source that this is biological and not lifestyle and cultural privilege?

>>7826217
>>7826326

Don't take >>7825757 too serious, he's a crazy straight man who occasional invades this place to crep on lesbians and talk about how they get him so hot.

He also goes around bullying effeminate gay boys because they're borderline trannies

>>7826548
https://www.cmu.edu/CSR/case_studies/women_live_longer.html

>>7826703
lol

>>7826719
>Later in life, testosterone puts men at risk biologically as well as behaviorally. It increases blood levels of the bad cholesterol (known as LDL, for low-density lipoprotein) and decreases levels of the good one (HDL, for high-density lipoprotein), putting men at greater risk of heart disease and stroke.
>Estrogen, on the other hand, has beneficial effects on cardiovascular health, lowering LDL cholesterol and increasing HDL cholesterol. A recent study at the University of Washington suggests that estrogen may exert these effects by regulating the activity of liver enzymes involved in cholesterol metabolism.
>Estrogen is also an antioxidant--that is, it neutralizes certain naturally occurring, highly reactive chemicals, called oxygen radicals, that have been implicated in neural and vascular damage and aging. Emerging evidence suggests that treatment with estrogen after menopause reduces a woman's risk of dying from heart disease and stroke, as well as her risk of dying in general. Estrogen therapy has also been shown in some studies to delay the onset of Alzheimer's disease.
fuck